General Betting
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The thrill of professional gambling.
The thrill of professional gambling.
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The thrill of being a professional gambler wears off as the novelty of the initial thrill wears off - if that makes sense to you, consistency is not thrilling, it's satisfying,
But then again -I am not in the league of people like U25k or investor, I'm the league of people who make a decent living(that's how I perceive a Pro) as of now - so you'd have to ask the real big players here that question as I don't know what it feels like to comfortably make high 4 figures weekly, month in month out. |
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Can't imagine many pro's would call it glamourous. 50 hours (at times) a week trading pretty much rules it out for me anyway.
The 'thrill' of making a lot of money is still there, and my biggest wins - which tend to be short odds lays which are decided relatively quickly after placing the bet - can be pretty damn exciting. The daily grind is pretty damn dull though. |
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A bit off topic but I would like to ask if you pros pay income taxes for your goverment or not. I know basically BF is free of taxes at least in most of Europe but if you do it as your main income you must pay taxes?
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Tax treatment
In the UK and some other European countries the profit from spread betting is free from tax. The UK and some other European countries tax authorities designate financial spread betting as gambling and not investing, meaning it is free from capital gains tax and stamp tax, despite the fact that its regulated as a financial product by the Financial Services Authority in the UK. Most traders are also not liable for Income Tax unless they rely solely on their profits from financial spread betting to support themselves. The popularity of financial spread betting in the UK and some other European countries, compared to trading other speculative financial instruments such as CFDs and futures is partly due to this tax advantage. However, this also means any losses cannot be offset against future earnings for tax calculations. Conversely, in most other countries financial spread betting income is considered taxable. For example the Australian Tax Office issued a decision in March 2010 saying "Yes, the gains from financial spread betting are assessable income under section 6-5 or section 15-15 of the ITAA 1997".[7] Similarly, any losses on the spread betting contracts are deductible. This has resulted in a much lower interest in financial spread betting in those countries. ================================================================== Check INLAND EVENUE UK ....or GOOGLE on subject. Punting on HORSE RACING is not "taxable income"......in UK. |
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BIM22017 - Trade: Exceptions & alternatives: Betting and gambling - the professional gambler
The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade. The case of Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309 concerned a man whose sole means of livelihood came from betting on horses at starting prices. Rowlatt J says at pages 313 and 314: Now we come to betting, pure and simple… the man who bets with the bookmaker, and that is this case. These are mere bets. Each time he puts on his money, at whatever may be the starting price. I do not think he could be said to organise his effort in the same way as a bookmaker organises his. I do not think the subject matter from his point of view is susceptible of it. In effect all he is doing is just what a man does who is a skilful player at cards, who plays every day. He plays to- day and he plays to-morrow and he plays the next day and he is skilful on each of the three days, more skilful on the whole than the people with whom he plays, and he wins. But I do not think that you can find, in his case, any conception arising in which his individual operations can be said to be merged in the way that particular operations are merged in the conception of a trade. I think all you can say of that man ... is that he is addicted to betting. It is extremely difficult to express, but it seems to me that people would say he is addicted to betting, and could not say that his vocation is betting. The subject is involved in great difficulty of language, which I think represents great difficulty of thought. There is no tax on a habit. I do not think ”habitual” or even “systematic” fully describes what is essential in the phrase “trade, adventure, profession or vocation”. This shows that having expertise or being systematic (“studying form”) is not enough to create a trade of being a ”professional gambler”. Some ”professional gamblers” do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts. |
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BIM22016 - Trade: Exceptions & alternatives: Betting and gambling - what is a bet?
The first, and obvious, question is simply what is a bet? A definition of a bet or “wager” was given by Hawkins J in Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company [1892] 2QB484 and has been followed in later cases: It is not easy to define with precision what amounts to a wagering contract, nor the narrow line of demarcation which separates a wagering from an ordinary contract; but, according to my view, a wagering contract is one by which two persons, professing to hold opposite views touching the issue of a future uncertain event, mutually agree that, dependent on the determination of that event, one shall win from the other, and that other shall pay or hand over to him, a sum of money or other stake; neither of the contracting parties having any other interest in that contract than the sum or stake he will so win or lose, there being no other real consideration for the making of such contract by either of the parties. It is essential to a wagering contract that each party may under it either win or lose, whether he will win or lose being dependent on the issue of the event, and, therefore, remaining uncertain until that issue is known. |
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Check the rest from :-
BIM22000 - Trade: Exceptions & alternatives: Contents This section deals with some activities which are at the fringes of trading income. If you need to make assessments you should consider whether alternative assessments are needed in order to protect the HMRC position. This procedure, which has been approved by the courts, is not considered to involve double taxation (see Bye v Coren 60TC116 and Lord Advocate v McKenna 61TC688). It covers the following: BIM22001 Furnished lettings BIM22005 Illegal activities - introduction BIM22007 Illegal activities - the trading test BIM22008 Illegal activities - no moral test BIM22010 Illegal activities - what is a trade? BIM22015 Betting and gambling - introduction BIM22016 Betting and gambling - what is a bet? BIM22017 Betting and gambling - the professional gambler BIM22018 Betting and gambling - organised activity BIM22019 Betting and gambling - element of existing trade BIM22020 Betting and gambling - spread betting BIM22025 Insurance receipts BIM22030 Activities not connected with an existing trade BIM22035 Miscellaneous income BIM22040 Co-workers of the Camphill Association |
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If I for example have 18years old(I have more) and winning on betfair is my first earned money(income), and Im paying premium charge(20%) Can I buy house?
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The basic position is that betting and gambling, as such, do not constitute trading. Rowlatt J said in Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309:
A bet is merely an irrational agreement that one person should pay another person on the happening of an event. This decision has stood the test of time. ==================================================================== However, an organised activity to make profits out of the gambling public will normally amount to trading.....eg a BOOKMAKER!   |
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siwadupa
If you were....go see a tax consultant and a mortgage adviser....as you can afford to pay em fees!  |
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Thank you for reply. Im new in this country. I wanted to be self employed. Not looking easy at beginigs. Even with openning bank account. And forgive me that I dont know to much about your law :/
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Well there you have it folks.
Never, ever ask DFC a question unless you sincerely want the answer in spades. Btw if you're making all that amount of money from gambling alone, do it from a tax haven or better still from the deck of a super yacht. |
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do you lose enjoyment of betting if its a job or income
there must be a few alcoholics or a few suicides about after finding out the hard way. |
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I would imagine any enjoyment is directly correlated to the amount you win day in day out.
Start losing large amounts of money over a reasonably extended period, and just see how the enjoyment quotient decreases exponentially. |
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Some more FAFH
Is an on-line professional gambler still just operating a system by habit or are they trading? Provided that the “pro-punter” is not carrying on an organised activity to make profits out of the gambling public, it is considered this will not amount to trading. The betting exchanges have produced a number of sophisticated pro-punters who approach their work on a scientific, well-researched basis. This is not “irrational” but the profit is “tax free”. For tax purposes there is no distinction between recreational and non-recreational players. How does the pro-punter deal with the issues of tax compliance? The safe answer has to be to make HMRC aware of the position. This can be done by simply writing to the pro-punter’s local tax office stating that he or she has income from gambling and to record the details each year on a tax return. It is also important to obtain clearance from HMRC via “Code of Practice 10”. Why is Gambling “Tax-free”? It is assumed that the simple answer is that HMRC could not cope with the tax claim for gambling losses! The sporting world involves a large amount of gambling at all levels. In practice, if HMRC tried to assess the “winners” to tax there would be a deluge of tax loss claims. Practical Tip Keep a record of winnings in case evidence is required at a later stage. HMRC always need to verify sources of income and windfalls in an enquiry situation, so it is important to keep records to avoid any future problems over (say) the identification of any capital introduced in to a business. |
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Fine@ what do you mean"tax heaven" I came to UK coz i thought UK is most liberal country for betting, trading etc. What do you think if my winnigs coming only from betfair and I would go and buy house for that money? Will I get trouble?
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pros must get there losing streaks but confident enough to get it together again
im in the ---bet for fun not ruin league here a pro who did it all---died age 45 thou http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stu_Ungar |
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Tax heaven.
I love it. But not an apt description of the UK I'm afraid to say. Anyway, first make the money ( from gambling), you will not be taxed on it, put in a bank, find a house, write a cheque and buy it, and bob's your uncle. Then DON'T lose all the money you have won ( again from gambling) and have to sell your new house, and end up back where you started with the same crummy landlord. OK. Comprende ? |
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You may run into "MONEY-LAUNDERING" queries...........so important you can PROVE where you got money from.......
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What do you think what proves they will need? Cant I just get Betfair PL. If all its tax free (except premium charge-which is tax) Why I might get troubles if I will buy house?
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Bank account also needed to tie in/ RECONCILE with DEPOSITS/PAYMENTS from BF.
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Ungar a role model xmoneyx ?
I surely hope not. If that's what being a real pro gambler is, then no thank you. The price of genius. Far too high, far too often. |
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Oh, thanks DFCIRONMAN and the others for answers!
I will tomorrow read them more carefully but already checked most of them. - So, is it safe to conclude that 0% (or close to that) of BF heavy earners pay taxes of their winnings? - How do the pros usually relate with the job market? I my country if you are "active job seeker" you can have some financial benefits from the governement. But it does not make sense to get any benefits if you make enough money at BF. And can you be active job seeker really? Any of you pros declare yourself as "outside of the job market" or you continue to receive benefits? Please do not understand my questions wrong, there is no moralism included, not too much anyways, I am just interested. I actually got interested in this because in my country there are some poker players who are at the lists of the top tax payers. I suppose no BF pros there then. |
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unger wasnt a role model but was certainly a thrill
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I think it would be interesting to be wired up to a heart rate monitor for a day's betting.
I bet Greyhound BAGS, typically 1 session per day ... 3 hours when it's a morning meet. 5 years ago I'm sure my heart rate will have upped a fair bit at times but now even with the bigger wins and losses I doubt if it changes much at all. |
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Agree with those who say theres no thrill in it really after a while, just another way to earn a crust and can be quite repetitive without any social interaction either much of the time.
The pluses are being able to break off and do what you want when you want within reason without being dictated too of course. |
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McChicken_Sandwich 23 Dec 11 17:04
Can't imagine many pro's would call it glamourous. 50 hours (at times) a week trading pretty much rules it out for me anyway. The 'thrill' of making a lot of money is still there, and my biggest wins - which tend to be short odds lays which are decided relatively quickly after placing the bet - can be pretty damn exciting. The daily grind is pretty damn dull though. ____________________________________ Can't understand this mentality at all - unless your earnings only just cover expenses . Why don't you simply work fewer hours -and if possible work the 'optimum' hours . I draw the line at 32 hours - i could do more ,i could make more -i also enjoy gambling but i also like time for other avenues - surely you need time for yourself Mc ? |
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Coach, there are a few reasons why I sometimes put in such extreme hours.
1. The opportunity to make a lot of money might not be there in 5 years time, with betfair's increasing dislike of anyone who takes money out of the system, who know's what measures they'll take next to push out their unwanted pro's. 2. While the opportunity is there I want to use it to set myself up for life financially. I couldn't justify doing this for a living if I was just scraping by and making enough to pay rent and take a few holidays. My CV is pretty much a black hole as it is, and so unless I make significant money doing this then it's not worth me giving up these years, which would put me a long way behind where I could be career/job wise. 3. I don't like missing opportunities, and if I put in those hours I can be content I'm not missing too many of them. I take a few holidays a year, generally, usually an extended block of a month or so, aside from the time off I get when the tennis season finishes in december. My working hours are extreme, probably similar to a guy my age trying to work his way up in the City etc etc, but I wan't to make a lot of money out of this and exploit the opportunity why it's there, so I'll put in the hard work now even if it does come at some price. |
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fair enough Mc - that's a pretty good reason ,in which case it's not so much a job as an investment of your time - so this isn't really your job at all
 .For someone who's job IS gambling then it has to beat digging holes imo . |
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For most though Coach, their gambling is probably exactly the same as digging holes unfortunately, job or no job.
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Btw I think Mc Chick's reply was excellent in content also.
Probably a mite depressing for a few on here, but probably a good eye opener for what is really involved ( unless you can design and write an in play betting bot, that is . ) |
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It's not something that I could maintain forever, nor would I want to, I'd probably burn out and/or get too bored of it, but being at the mercy of a company who have abandoned their principles and seem intent of driving people who make a living off them away I doubt I'll be the one who makes the decision when the time to move on is. At least I'll have made enough money to give me opportunities to do other things.
Anyway, I am sure many people out there put in more than 50 hour working weeks, perhaps not healthy, but sometimes to get where you wan't to go you have to push it. |
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Bit of a contradiction there Mc Chick ?
"---- a company-------driving people away who make a living off them----. At least I'll have made enough money --- ". I know what your basic gripe is, but aren't you rather missing the essential point that without BF in the first place you wouldn't even have had any opportunity to make what you are making ( and please, please don't say the traditional bookies would have been a viable alternative ever). Also I think if your admirable, though perhaps too exhaustive for most, work ethic is based primarily on the potential concern and fear that BF might eventually go off your radar for whatever reason, known or unknown, I personally think you are being overly alarmist, and thus creating pressures on you that are quite unnecessary. But each to his own I suppose. All the best for the new year of gambling. |
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Only the real pros post here on Christmas Eve
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Christmas Day- an excellent time to catch up on all the backlog in research, with a 24 hr respite till the next lot of soccer games.
Sad if true ? Nah. I hate Christmas- a complete waste of a day. I want action 24/7. A minute wasted is a minute lost. Time is of the essence. Blah. Blah. Blah. Have a good one jimmy. Remember gambling and drinking do not mix ( except for me of course). |
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spartacus--i hate xmas
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Btw my BF window is not the only one I have open today or any day.
I have many others open at the same time, flipping back and forth. The net is an endless source of opportunity to make and spend money, not just in gambling. Real estate, stocks, commodities, collectibles, art, music, books - the list is endless. Always busy looking and exploring and thinking jimmy. You too I hope. |
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Great film though.
Russell Crowe vs Kirk Douglas. Not even close. |
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
24 Dec 11 21:43 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 4,751 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog Bit of a contradiction there Mc Chick ? "---- a company-------driving people away who make a living off them----. At least I'll have made enough money --- ". I know what your basic gripe is, but aren't you rather missing the essential point that without BF in the first place you wouldn't even have had any opportunity to make what you are making ( and please, please don't say the traditional bookies would have been a viable alternative ever). It might have taken me a while longer but I could have made the same amount via bookies as betfair...... as things stand (but it woulda been a lot more difficult) |
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I feel the same as Mc_S, in that I want to get a lot out of this opportunity while I can. The future is certainly not clear: Betfair could tighten the screws with further charges, legislation might cause problems etc. That's why I'm paying myself the equivalent of a salary far below the national average, while making a profit far above it. I'm also paying Betfair considerably more in commission than I pay myself (and that's not even counting PC).
The big difference is that I enjoy doing this. I spend about 40 hours a week trading (20 mon-fri/ 20 weekend), and quite a few extra hours doing research and projects etc. getting into automation now. I firmly believe that if these opportunities persist, the profits will concentrate more and more in fewer hands as smaller players get weeded out by more sophisticated players and bots. Therefore I am positioning myself to be part of the group that makes it through that. Merry Xmas! Back to work tomorrow ;) |