Betfair "pleased" with Premium charge

If they want to slow people down they should say max 10% bank on any one bet, kind of like FL poker. The reckless 'fun' gambler losing everything in one bet is a killer for the exchange model. You could argue that diffusing the recreational player bets as much as possible is as equally important as what you do with winners, maybe even more so.

The only unique selling point Betfair has now is it's in-play offering.

If a competitor infiltrates this area of their business they're screwed, and for my money that time will come.

With such an inept company according to most of the
postings on here, how come the purple site haven't
made significant inroads ?

I've been a member at the other place for years.  This week I've seen 1/2 million matched on a 4th round men's tennis match. Although peanuts compared to this place, it's a massive increase to what they're used to.  Momentum is hard to stop once it gets going.

Ive noticed a massive increase on US racing this week at the purple palace

If it's making up ground no one would be more
pleased than me, but it must be very, very, gradual,
cause I have not been aware of it.

They need to have pretty much identical markets, at present the variety is limited which is a problem. I suspect they were caught by surprise and have been inundated with requests for new markets they weren't ready to offer which isn't going to help.

With such an inept company according to most of the
postings on here, how come the purple site haven't
made significant inroads ?


look like more money is bet at purple on rubgy world cup then betafir...this is nuts, to say this 6 weeks ago , would have been lol at....purple had almost zero money bet on tennis, and now it has something, in just 6 weeks

I think the cash out facility is a good common sense innovation but what it definitely doesnt do is improve the return of casual punters.  I was completely staggered that he appeared to think it did.  Has he ever gambled in his life?


Betfair may just take more commission from some users but others will change the way they play to the benefit of the casual punter. Others may move elsewhere. This will also benefit the casual punter provided prices remain competitive.

It also benefits the people who have lifetime commission rates of 40% plus as it increases sustainability. The only people it doesn't benefit are some of those caught in the net. I say some because I will get caught somepoint soonish but see the system as probably advantageous to me in the long run. 

Will purple benefit?  I suspect not, they are hardly clamouring to sign up all the disgruntled pc layers are they?  Why not?

*layers

Also first para is quoted from clydebanks post above. Pesky phone...

Will purple benefit?  I suspect not, they are hardly clamouring to sign up all the disgruntled pc layers are they?  Why not?


there turnover 10 times what it was before PC


and as other post have said..betfair keep getting record profit from there sports exchange each year, but some how betfair can't feed the ecosystem (betfair new donkey word) from all the PC accounts

10 times ? On what markets ?

Who wants to increase their turnover by 10 times with unprofitable business?

tennis is 100 times

Or even 100 times :p

Who wants to increase their turnover by 10 times with unprofitable business?

when betfair first started...there was only Pro on betfair....betfair went from zero to 600 million...it bullsh!t that it not profitable, it just betfair wants to make more percent, and betfair see there italy sprtsbook making margin of 9% and think, why share the mugs money with the pro, we (betfair) can keep all of it

nairda, would you like BF to weaken ? What benefit would
that be to you or I ?

nairda is the bitterest of the bunch.

Kenilworth the 60% premium charge has alienated customers.  Once very loyal.  They have in effect had their accounts closed for life.  So its no surprise that people who once would have jumped off a cliff to defend Betfair now feel a lot less loyal than you.

Surely by definition the customers who are leaving And complaining are not loyal.

Only if your idea of loyalty tallies with that of something like the regime in Pyongyang.

You clearly think 60% is fair, which is fine, you're allowed a view, but the obvious question would be what level of charge would you say is unfair? Because if you are a gambler on here, there will be a point or a system where even you think it's not worth it, so what would that level be for you?

When I start losing. I'm not saying you're wrong in thinking it's unfair just that the idea that someone can be loyal and then not is not loyal is paradoxical.

A rational punter will place his bet where he can get the best terms and for many people, this is no longer bf.

But (other than in a few cases of market-makers on quiet markets, who shd get some kind of sweetener) bf does not need these people's custom.

Imv the company will either make a paradigm-shifting breakthrough internationally, prob. in Asia, or be overhauled by rivals offering the same product it did initially.

Of course loyalty can change. You might be married, then start getting battered, your loyalty will diminish then. You might be with a bank and be happy with them at first, then they change your overdraft charges then you are less loyal and committed to them and prepared to go elsewhere.

I think what people are trying to get across is that there was a time they imagined Betfair would be the only company they would ever bet with. I don't think that's the case now, and people have been generally nonplussed with many aspects of Betfair outwith PC2 for a while. The emotional connection for many has gone for many reasons, not just PC2. 

There is also extensive psychological research that shows how if there's something/one you like, then you fall out with them, you dislike them more than people you just ordinarily disliked. It also goes the other way, if there's something you initially hated, but then go on to like, you like it more than an entity you originally liked.

Point well made and taken inner, although I question how many would have stayed with Betfair had a better option presented itself.

I think there's certainly some truth in that, but that calculation isn't always purely financial. If we look at mundane examples such as banking, utility supplies, many of us persist with suppliers who economically aren't the best option because we have other positive associations such as previous good service, a better the devil you know mentality or we want to avoid an inconvenience (that in reality is typically worth less than the saving we would make). One of the things many people used to say on here was that they only had a Betfair account because it offered every market and was more often than not the best price, so economically they may have been better off elsewhere half the time yet still they used here. It's probably a mix of loyalty, convenience and not wanting several accounts open etc, but the decision for customers is rarely 100% financial.

Agree completely.

Exchanges for me are just one of my options
and I have no more loyalty to them or any
other betting medium, be they bookmakers,
spreads etc. What I have been saying all
along is that I understand why the PC's
have been introduced, simply because BF don't
want those customers. I don't know why some
people refuse to accept that.

Pretty sure last time you posted something like that it got deleted.

The pc has implications beyond those who pay it. There's possible taxation, it will hardly help establish them in other countries and will deter new customers. It's no wonder they hide it all in a sea of t&c's.

They certainly didn't want them pre PC and maybe there is
a point where they will fing them acceptable, maybe with a
75% PC.

Strange that they thought the sun shone out of their @rses for 7 year. There were points where the clowns raised commission for gamblers while leaving many parasites still paying less than 5% on their lifetime profits.

i was on betfair in 2001...i would put lay bets up, even when i could get the same prices at other bookmakers, because i wanted betfair to grow...I had 50,000 shares of betfair, but as luck would have it, i had to sell at 9.60 , but i would have sold betfair shares when PC 2 came out in July (but luck save me 175k)

Their nothing special about betfair, but for the people who bet at betfair and why they bet

Well.. a bit off topic this:
How many percent of the '500' do you guys reckon are so called 'cheating' customers. e.g. People who win based on having an edge because of being in the arena etc.
I could understand that Betfair want these customers out because these customers dont add ANY value to the website and just collect money.

Don't know what that percentage is and wont guess either, but I think almost everyone you call a "cheating" customer which are caught by PC2 is likely to stay.
  Almost everyone caught by PC2 who are some kind of position taker, be it market makers, traders or old fashioned gamblers, are likely to leave though.
  So PC2 will make the best value customers leave while the "cheats" stay.

The best value customers aren't affected by pc2. Why wouldn't the cheats leave, Eddie?

the best value customers are the ones that provide most liquidity

Unless they keep to much of it

I should rephrase that... the best value customers are those that provide the most liquidity that wont otherwise be replaced.  As a group they are fundamental, individually they are inclined to cut each others throats.

I was thinking of the best value customers among those caught by PC2, but I think you would be surprised if you knew how many really good customers for Betfair that are caught or close to getting caught by PC2.
  The "cheats" wont leave because they have no better alternative atm and can continue betting with this tax as their betting is almost risk free.

cat the exchange market is a very competitive free market.  All that matters is that prices and liquidity are competitive.  That is what generates turnover and commission

That is what generates turnover and commission and also means casual punters lose less quickly of course

I think betfairs decision to increase the PC for high hitters is very good for the general punter. There is hardly any value these days as the big hitters manipulate the market with a lot of money. By charging them high it encourages them to leave , as a result better value for the ordinary punter( like me)[;)]

But Eagle.
You state that certain type of PC2 payers will leave. I think hardly any PC2 payer will leave/left. The only reason for a PC2 payer to leave would be when he has actually a risk of losing or when the time invested does not justify his profits. I think neither is true for the majority of PC2 payers.
I don't know how many of the PC2 payers are 'bots'. But I won't see any reason for a 'bot' to leave just because he is making less money. Any profit is profit.
Also when people are talking about going purple. It looks all very well but it is obvious, as stated here before, that the PC2 payer needs 'stupid' customers and there are just simply not enough of them on purple to allow a total switch from Betfair.
I am a PC2 payer and I absolutely don't like the charges but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. Sorry to say. I indeed think the so called 'eco-system' can only be maintained by charging the '500'. Not so much for helping the losers to last longer with their money, and Betfair don;t care for this either, but simply to be able to do marketing to attract new customers. When we say BF is simply greedy and cannot stand the idea of a group of customers making more money than themselves we also need to have a look at ourselves. At least I do: Betfair is an exchange and when we win we don't give a f*ck about the losing party. Now when Betfair, who have made it all available for the PC2 customers to make money with betting, changes their policy everyone gets all wound up. Shame on you (and me)! haha

The marketing argument would be a good one but didnt someone point out that they have actually spent less on it since the PC started?

When I get a bet of 4K to 400 matched in a oner am I being matched with 40 recreational layers risking 400 apiece? Somehow I doubt it. I'd say a lot of the money I'm being matched with belongs to other winners who have an opposing view. Betfair may think it doesn't matter if winners go elsewhere or rap it in (in the case of traders and cheats they'd mainly be correct) but the fewer winning gamblers there are on the site the more it will affect my business. We all know they're not spending the extra money on marketing and even if they did they'd be lucky to reverse the damage. Any new` customer who shows a decent profit is in danger of having their account frozen while they attempt to link them to an existing winner. Betfair is like a closed shop now.

You joined in Sep 2010 and you are already paying PC2?  I find it hard to believe.

Purple is a million miles away from being much use to me.  I can't offer prices because I don't use bots and there is barely any turnover in the markets I bet in such that I'd more than likely only get nmatched if I offered an arb, merely offering a better price over there is not enough.  If you use bots however, I dont see the problem as your bot can automatically adjust the prices so you are not offering arbs and you can hedge back on here.

It's encouraging that Feck is finding turnover in his markets but unless the operator itself is proactive in exploiting the opportunity (which I don't think it is) then I don't see momemtum building.  If I was them I'd have launched an aggressive marketing campaign but I see no signs of that at all.

The date shown under your forum name, is the date you joined the forum, not the date you first opened your Betfair account.

I joined the forum last month, but I have had a Betfair account for five years.

Clydebank, No it is an old account. I guess joined means joined the community.
Feck, it is interesting what you are saying. And I ask myself the same question. But I don't think the majority of your 4k will be matched by other winners but I may be wrong. Why is it so hard to grasp that an exchange does not work when a very small percentage takes away huge sums of money from the arena? To me you can compare an exchange with a poker table with 5 players with 4 dummies and one pro. This table will only last if the dummies are replaced as they run out of money. Just stop being angry with Betfair and accept the facts :)

sure Howarde it is possible but someone betting to the extent that they are paying PC2 would in all likelihood have not waited years to join the forum

Howarde, I have quite some accounts and this one is my GBP account. I have been with Betfair about 10 years. But having said that. I have become a PC2 customer in just a year. I used to win hardly anything before the last 12 months.

You are most likely correct CLYDEBANK.

Maybe its FAFH making a belated return.

Hey guys,
I am Romortio, this is my older account.. I am not somebody being undercover or something dont be so paranoia

This table will only last if the dummies are replaced as they run out of money.

Correct, but is setting heavies on the winners or allowing winners to use marked cards a viable way of attracting new dummies.

Oh not.. haha well anyhow.. Just trust me :)

Fair enough romortio, it's part of the territory now, bookmaking in general and Betfair has become a culture of paranoia in the last 18 months.  If you have achieved what you say you have achieved in the last 12 months a year later you'd have probably had your account suspended by Betfair.

Betfair 200 Brighton Total Matched £32003*
Purple  200 Brighton Total Matched £24357*

75% of Betfair Turnover with 50% of Commission Rate

Purple place is certainly gaining liquidity, more & more people going to switch especially if you can halve your costs.


* Figures Taken at 12(midday)

Feck, Well, you see a small number of punters outsmarting 99% of the players for 10 years. You come up with the idea of marked cards. This is to me exactly what happens. PC2 players do have marked cards, anyhow I do. The whole idea that you can win with betting is obviously wrong. You can never win assuming the bank takes a certain commission and the odds are correct. The majority need to be unaware of this in order for the 1% to take all the money. You can say it is different than having marked cards but to me it is the same. You know something they don't and make advantage of it.

cliveboy they have a different way of calculating turnover.

Take a look at the 2.00 place market.....total matched on **** is £9!!

Clydebank,  It is actually true that BF suspends accounts? What reason do they give?

romortio, as far as most PC2 payers go, betfair give them the marked cards. If I ran betfair I would think the way forward was to allow only fair decks to be used. Betfair's preference is to allow them to continue with the marked cards and take a large slice of the action off the winners. They don't give a sh1t about the dummies.

They'd probably suspend your account romortio because you didn't win for ages then you suddenly won loads.  They'd think someone else was betting on your account and you were acting as a "front" to avoid PC2. 

Do they suspend accounts? Yes

That's the culture of paranoia that now exists.  Any existing or new customer that works out or works hard to win, probably/maybe/possibly (how the hell would I know) has a shadow hanging over them.  Your account romortio, I imagine, would have been viewed as highly suspicious had you achieved what you say you have achieved since PC2 was introduced.

Clydebank,
Actually I am good terms with Betfair. They are very aware I haven't had winning accounts before. I wouldn't blame BF either for suspending accounts from people refusing to apply to the terms and use new accounts.

romortio have Betfair grouped your accounts together?  should you be paying PC2 at all?  Why would Betfair be "very aware" you have losing accounts before like you have some kind of personal relationship?  There are a million? accounts on Betfair why would they be very aware of yours?  When you say you are on good terms do you mean they came round for tea and biscuits?

romortio not all pc payers have marked cards like yourself.  I know from my own experience that any punter with half a brain can pay PC2/3.  The reason I am paying 60% charge is because I was encouraged to green up in the early days and stayed doing that.  Betfair's new "cash out" encourages greening up, so Betfair are still encouraging a pattern of betting that can lead to PC2/3.  Having said that(with respect)  anyone regularly using Betfar's "cash out" will not have half a brain. 

I do not mind paying a fair price in charges for my betting, but I do not think 60% is a fair price. 

It has forced me to change my stratgey and no longer green up, but because of the 60% charge, I have to do my betting elsewhere.

Haha Clydebank :)
Well.. my account is so profitable that they would sure keep an eye on me. And they have indeed grouped all my accounts (four) together, one on my request. I think to try to fool BF as a winning customer is shooting yourself in your own foot.

Hazel,
Point taken. Though I have never greened out as I refuse to place any bets where I don't expect margin. And I am on the same side as you. I also don't agree with the PC percentages as they are. But I better accept it. For that reason I am not in all these kind of fora listening to angry people and so taking on their beliefs about how bad BF is and how the whole world is so against them.
With that I leave this thread and will mind my own business again :) I wish you all the best :)

mmm I'm suspicious that your story is total baloney.  To win nothing in 10 years and then enough to cover the previous 10 years turnover and still end up in PC2 teritory in one is a tough story to believe.  Taken in conjunction with some of your other comments I even more think its bollox.  I have to say it as I see it, although I accept I could be wrong.

Clydebank: 10 years of analysing and winning at bookies. Then winning 1 million in a year in Betfair, thats how it is. I am not lying. Take care now!

f-ck...all these winning punters with very new chat sign up dates, just love the PC

hazel, what would your advice be to those who pay the over 60% in
commission on winnings but do not pay PC. ?

hazel, what would your advice be to those who pay the over 60% in
commission on winnings but do not pay PC. ?

You may need a degree too make an edge on here ;

then another diploma to understand all the mechanisms involved to calculate your commision charge, implied commission blah blah ;

but to agree with being over charged continually just because betfair spins money round like conffetti means you will need a frontal lobotomy somewhere in the near future to stay sane[smiley:crazy]

Kenilworth I would advise them to win as much as possible as quick as possible, but try not to win at a rate lower than 40%.  You can win as much as you like if you avoid the PC2/3, but once caught you are given a life sentence. 

If you take me as an example, every single week for the rest of my life I will have to pay a MINIMUM of 60% charges, whereas the likes of others who take out from Betfair far much more money than me do not have such restriction; thay can pay as low as 2% some weeks.  And just as absurdly, others who again take out far much more money than me, only have to pay a MINIMUM of 40% for being slightly less effiecient than me in the past. 

Not forgetting all these PC2/3 charges are based on past performance and subject to change should Betfair desire.

But perhaps most of all I would advise everyone to not put all their eggs in the Betfair basket.  Particularly if they aspire to being a "long term winner".  Liquidity elsewhere is now sufficient in the major markets to warrant a sizeable percentage of your bank.  I would also advise people to keep open other bookmaker accounts if they like "back" bets.

good post hazel

romortio
12 Sep 11 10:35   

But Eagle.
You state that certain type of PC2 payers will leave. I think hardly any PC2 payer will leave/left. The only reason for a PC2 payer to leave would be when he has actually a risk of losing or when the time invested does not justify his profits. I think neither is true for the majority of PC2 payers.

As I said, most PC2 payers that are position takers whether they are market makers, traders or old fashioned gambler will leave or have allready left.   These customers have a betting pattern which may include long losing runs and that is not something that can be risked when liable for PC2.

And if I may add, your story isn't very belivable and it certainly isn't if you go AWAL as you said.

Eddie,

These customers have a betting pattern which may include long losing runs and that is not something that can be risked when liable for PC2.

I don't think that will be the major issue for most.

I'm more worried about the complete lack of clarity for the future of the charging structure. There's nothing stopping Betfair to make PC 70% or 80% in the future if they think they can get away with it.

The new PC has brought into focus the need for a "Plan B".

betfairs downfall started when the pc1 was implemented and for them it worked, gave them all the hop to
rack up the charge and pay for there dismal performance due to over investment and stagnation in the real world of market flotation, chances are now there not only a matured business because of there portly belly and lack of ideas but at the top of the roller coaster ride and
wheeeee its all down hill in a year or twos time, mark my words.

unless they buy for more time and flag a few bookmaker style products on the shelf, poor show for the founder of the betting exchange.

Its not just the pc2 thats productively wrong for betfair, its the cracks that are hiding behind within there company that it will seal there fate. q.e.d.

I think it's time you requested for your forum name to be changed......

TheInvestor2, it certainly is the case for 3 people I know on here.They are all what you can call position takers and they have all stopped betting on here.
  I'm also a position taker and are close to reaching the 40 % threshold and I can promise you that I will leave this place when and if I'm liable for PC2.

Out of principal or because you think you can do better elsewhere?

Certainly not because I think I can do better elsewhere.
  It's partially out of principal and in spite, but the biggest reason would be the fear of starting off with a good run and pay a fortune in PC2 and later go on a bad run and either go skint because of this or just the no rebate point in that case.

I think PC2 would kick out again before you went skint, unless you lost it all in one week!

No comfort in not paying PC2 when on a losing run as long as you paid a fortune when you had the good run.
  This is exactly what happened to me with PC1.  I had a good run and paid a small fortune in PC before I hit the bad run.
I didn't go skint during the bad run, but only because it was in the PC1 age. I would have lost it all had PC2 been in place during my good run back then.

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim but that means you lost it all in one week?

The only reason I can think of why they didn't implement my suggested rebate method is they would lose money in a) the cases Eddie describes and b) when customers die.

catfloppo, it doesn't mean that.   I went on a good run and paid plenty in PC1. I then went on a long losing run of more than 6 months which would have wiped out my bank had PC2 with it's 40 % been in place during the good run. Luckily for me I "only" paid 20 % during the good run which again made me solvent through the bad run.

It means exactly that - I am being a bit dim.  Understand now.  What I was thinking was that you would come out of pc territory at some point during the losing run but of course that wouldn't help until you started winning again.

And that's why I (and others) as position takers choose to leave this place when liable for PC2.  Because the wrong sequence of winnings/losses actually may wipe you out due to having paid a "fortune" in PC2 on the way.

Hmm, yes.  It's a shame that nobody can think of a way round this.

Plenty of ways round this, but the problem with all of them is that Betfair think they will be less profitable for them.

I already did catfloppo and sent it to betfair. No reply. Their complacency will be their undoing.

wow eddie, that's an extreme scenario. I guess I couldn't really imagine a big winner losing a large amount over a period as long as 6 months (except for arbers who win it back elsewhere). Of course, all kinds of crazy stuff can happen with entering incorrect odds etc. but losing a lot purely due to variance over such a long period would scare me regardless of PC.

Is your main income derived from betting?

Just to clearify, I had some winnings during that bad run, but it was mainly a downhill graph for 6 months.
  Nothing unusual in position takers having long bad runs, so why should it be different for PC2 payers with that kind of betting pattern.
  If on 2 % commission you can be caught by PC2 by having a strike rate below 52 % betting only at evens.  Try betting on red/black on a roulette with zero on your team and look at what variances that may occur.
  I've had betting as my main income for the last 20 years now, but only joined here in 2004.

That's impressive, Eddie.