This is why I hate the premium charge.....

Can you put some figures to that layer1982?

I think I sympathise with your situation, but it depends on your long term profits doesn't it?

What was your gross profit over the last 4 weeks?

How much comm did you pay?

I.e, 30k GP, 3k comm, so stung for 3k PC? In which case you'd still be 19k up?

Since new Premium charge came into force: All i know is my net profit is £1437.92 but Premium Charges paid= £2546.34. Remember I put in all the hours put in all the effort, and Betfair take home more than me at the end of that... EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED! This is why everyone warned against playing on here now and I thought nah won't be like that. It's EXACTLY like that.

They should at least refund the charges once you get to a situation where you would still be at 40% if they removed it, as is the case with me now.

yes i should not have said charges in fisrt post. It was Premium Charges I meant.

Layer 1982, it is very frustrating paying these charges and it can effect your mindset. Is there any way you can move your work to another platform?

Wow you should listen to yourself, you get to use the biggest winning betting platform around and expect a fiscal reward for weeks you cant manage to make a profit, do you want betfair to send you a
condolence card every week as well when you cant make a huge wad, what would you like put in it?

Perhaps there is a lot of delusion amongst the many bettors at betfair, or the ones that cry so much anyway.

They said they couldn't give rebates because it would invite pc evasion. I gave them a perfectly viable and easy implemented means of doing so that wasn't open to evasion but they just don't give a fk.

"Wow you should listen to yourself, you get to use the biggest winning betting platform around and expect a fiscal reward for weeks you cant manage to make a profit,"

He doesn't say that at all. A rebate is not a reward, it would be recognition that gambling is a volatile activity. Variance has absolutely no memory and doesn't care in what order you win funds. If Betfair are so confident that these people are long term winners, why are they making this charge over such a short time frame? Because if someone does crash and burn from profitability, they do it in a way that makes Betfair the most money of course. It's similar to governmental confidence in graduates to get the highest paid jobs that they are required to start paying back loans as soon as they reach a mere half of the national average wage. I noticed you also disappeared sharpish at the weekend when people started tearing that corporate piece of fluff apart regarding the safety of funds.

Exactly, if they are so sure I will back rebate me and then I will end up paying it pack. Instead I am very unsure of my tactics now and am thinkin it's not gna be worth it. £1400 for 5 weeks work, no thanks buddy I can make much more doing sonething else. If that's what betfair wanted, they may get it.

And I am trying to move my activities as much as I can don't you worry. If there is no loyalty from one side there will def be no loyalty from mines, when cruch time comes.

I'm not opposed to the pc but I don't get why they don't have some kind of rebate system.

Feck, it's also the case that many smaller winners that grow will naturally start to pay a higher % of comm in charges. Betfair would lose money refunding these customers.

catfloppo betfair do have rebate system.

layer1982 is wrong.

by lose 5k now, that mean that next time betfair want premium charge moneys, layer1982 won't have to pay his next 3k of premium charge payment.

I don't get that Investor???

pc1 was bad - but betfair fix big problem with pc1 when they make pc2.  with pc2 they say it is assume pc2 has always been paid on the account.  that mean that with pc1 you win one week you pay pc, lose next you get no rebate, week 3 you win you pay pc.  this is mean and not fair.  with pc2 you win week one you pay pc2, you lose next week you get no rebate, you win week 3 you don't pay pc2 unless winnings is more than 60% of your loss in week 2.  you never pay pc2 again until you have made moneys back, and at high win rate too.  is much more sensible and fairer, and that is why layer1982 is wrong.

What if you 'don't win back?'

I mean that's the case for me. When I had a small balance, I would limit myself to only extremely high value opportunities. As my balance grew, I started to take more and more advantage of more marginal profit making opportunities.

Due to this my activity used to fall firmly in PC1 territory, but is now more or less on the borderline.

Going from paying 10% of GP in comm to 25% of GP in comm, and winning along the way, is the same as a regular 10% of GP comm payer suffering an exceptionally large loss taking him to 25% of GP in comm, as in both would be rebated even though the first customer hasn't lost.

"What if you 'don't win back?' " - pc2 is for long term winner in very fast trend.  if you never win back at superfast rate, you never pay pc2 ever again.

Why should the sequence matter Investor? If you've paid beyond the pc% it's counted towards future pc's so you do get a rebate if you pay future pc's. My idea was that rebates due could be offset against any future charges (i.e. pc or normal commission) so nobody would suddenly be paid a sizeable rebate due to a sudden massive "loss".

ballabriggs, what ICS means is "what if you don't ever pay pc again" e.g. suppose you do your b0llox. PC with no rebates is a disincentive to increase stakes and is most likely to hit gamblers unjustly. They don't assume losers will always lose so why do they assume winners will always win.

feckneejit, pc2 does in effect operate with rebate system.  it is not intuitive, but it is how it work.

you can argues that if you become big loser suddenly, and your edge has gone but you still bet bigs, then would maybe be fair to have refund.  but reality is pc2 payer are big fast winner, layer1982 has won over £250,000, and win/lose of £1000 to £5000 are not big sums.  he will not have to pay pc2 next time he win because he has lose this week.  that is much fairer than pc1, which was nasty.  some peoples would have had to pay pc1 next time they win. 

any peoples who are losers should be looked after by bets companies.  if betfair does not, they have bad management.

I know how it works ballabriggs but betfair should not assume winners will always be winners when there is an easy solution to the problem.

have you write your solution on here?  would be interesting to see

Feck N. Eejit
Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
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When: 18 Aug 11 15:49
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Why should the sequence matter Investor? If you've paid beyond the pc% it's counted towards future pc's so you do get a rebate if you pay future pc's. My idea was that rebates due could be offset against any future charges (i.e. pc or normal commission) so nobody would suddenly be paid a sizeable rebate due to a sudden massive "loss".


The sequence doesn't matter, that's what I meant. I was just pointing out the different ways to reach the same situation.  If the system was in place, I would be getting rebates right now as I'm well above 20%.

"The sequence doesn't matter, that's what I meant. I was just pointing out the different ways to reach the same situation.  If the system was in place, I would be getting rebates right now as I'm well above 20%. "

If you are above 20%, you are still below 100% ?  So you are still winning? So why would you be getting a rebate?

Sorry Investor, for some reason I got the impression you were saying people in that position weren't deserving of one.

ballabriggs, I brought my 'Premium charge rebates' thread to the top for you.

lost another 3k today... weak mind for me, ive paid the price. Can I blame Betfair at all?? I think so...

still a rebate i think not. This is exactly the situation where a rebate should be present. I have now lost over the last 5 weeks somit like 1500 quid. Yet I have paid Betfair £2500 quid in Premium charges. Explain how this is Betting FAIRLY?? IT'S NOT!!!

I'M FUMIN BY THE WAY....

I'm in chase mode now :(

Layer, stop getting so steamed about the Premium Charge!    It's unfair, but there's no point letting unfairness drive you to the wall. Take a break and think very carefully about the next bet you make. 

Betfair aren't going to give a stuff if you lose your money through chasing in anger, but you most certainly will!

layer , fk the chase mode mate

bet u didn't make prem chg status by chasing


dont let it get to you  . bad frame of mind, anger lead to dark side , losses

step back , breathe , in an instance things are taken away from us in this life

see what else you can do. intelligent enough , you will find a route

layer, I would bet that if purple can't accomadate all of your action, they most certainly could accomadate a good portion of it.

put toys back in pram layer1982.  i not believe you win almost every bet yet cannot see why you are wrong on this.

To be honest I cant comment on a rebate system as I have no right with me not paying pc or even betting, I don't even understand the pc2 completely and it appears not to be too clear in the T&c as to the correct definable mechanisms for working it out, something about implied commission isnt mentioned on losses but I have been told by posters that this is part of it, its as clear as mud to me
and again, apologies on my behalf for being pc2 dumb and ignorant at times.

The only chance most of us have of even understanding the pc2 mechanism is by listening to others who pay it, again its left to the customers to help each other as its not done properly by the company, now if I were a BF staff member I wouldn't state the truth about them would I?

As long as you're still going to be a long term winner it won't matter as ballabriggs pointed out. You just won't have to pay it on future winning weeks until you get to par.

What is unfair as that all PC payers will have to quit at our peaks and that's one of life's certainties that we will all quit at some point in the future.

Quite true massive and the old saying still holds true, quit while your ahead as we all have to quit at some point in future, interesting though why there are no working examples of the pc2 effect on profits in the t&c as there is for pc1?

Betfair should make the charge more transparent in its understanding instead of making it look like a dark charge

Winning on betfair and making a profit is becoming more of a magicians apprenticeship all the time with commsrate, charge rates and looking into a crystal ball to know what betfair really wants us to do on this site!

are the expecting us to say "use the force luke" when we really just want to win some money off each other on a fair exchange

To be honest I cant comment on a rebate system as I have no right with me not paying pc or even betting

bff,

If you don't bet, why are you on here?

Get On MASSIVE
19 Aug 11 12:52 Joined: 25 Jun 03 | Topic/replies: 351 | Blogger: Get On MASSIVE's blog
As long as you're still going to be a long term winner it won't matter as ballabriggs pointed out.

The downside of course is that it is impossible to know for certain whether that is the case and where our high point is. Betfair closed down accas on PL football last week (to force recreational gamblers to use their poorer priced Multiple product). If that was your market your edge has disappeared overnight.

Well I have had an account for a few years but been busy with so many things that I have never had the time to finish my research into greyhound tracks and the research goalposts keep moving the more I find out the more work is required to expand and develop it , I was totally gob-smacked when i found out about pc2 but considering I haven't started using betfair I cant be in a position to say it effects me directly but there must be some increased numbers of persistent winners to make betfair increase the charge , anyway I cant speak on there behalf as  I have no real idea why they have brought the charge in as there isn't much on the subject in the press or from the company itself.

Most of all though lately I have come to realize there are a lot of clever people that do make money on here and it effects them directly so I should respect them more and I hope they can if not now, in the future make some big profits as isn't that what it says on the betfair tinand
the big players deserve some credit and cash for sticking around and building up betfair from the beginning some of them!

Where would betfiar be now if it wasn't for customers joining there exchange and following there winners are welcome policies for so long?

Wow BF Fanatic. You seem to have had a bit of a Damascene Conversion..

I have calmed down now. I'm going to have to bet less often, and only on really juicy prices now. Really sad that Betfair are effectively telling me not to bet now. Mad really. Have a Purple account now up and running again, so will use that also. My fault I lost no doubt, but still belive rebate is needed.

Well I have had an account for a few years but been busy with so many things that I have never had the time to finish my research into greyhound tracks

Yeah, good thinking. You don't want to rush in, do you?

Perhaps do another 5 years research, and then think about having a cheeky £2 bet on the dogs.

Have a Purple account now up and running again, so will use that also.



Good man, you know it makes sense and you'll only pay 2.5% commission until the 30th of september.

calmed down u better be  yes  make sure u do that  not nice climbing back from a big lost  while on pc

it takes forever

it makes me wonder  if the 98% losers now becomes 99.5% losers due to pc2

it be funny if  i just stop  and just bet 2quid  just one and make sure if that a winner on a even money shot in the sunday to sunday and get pc  for 96p

a big player   not sure about that 

This is from the golf forum. Not mine numbers, but from another who has gone purple for most of his betting due to PC2 :

...treat yourselves to a nice packet of biscuits for the next board meeting.  You've worked hard, you deserve it.

Last Week08/08/11 - 14/08/11
Gross PL    £    7.85   
Commission Generated    £    0.18    +
Other Charges    £    0.00    +
                   
Total Charges    £    0.18   
Total Charges    %    2.23   
Max possible Premium Charge    £    4.54   
Premium Charge [pre-allowance]    £    4.54   
Available allowance    £    0.00   
Premium Charge Applied    £    4.54   
Remaining allowance    £    0.00

The biggest problem with the pc charge is it changes the risk reward ratio massivly to the negative.
People will ask what's the point of risking money with the pc2 charge in place .Will the pc3 charge if there
is one be less?I don't think so.

Why does bf fantastic spend thousands on hours on these threads?Does he ever have time to bet?
Does he bet?

I've paid 24k in pc for August and I'm down for the month...go figure :(

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

24k in pc   wow that a big player

me  a big player no way  just small wins on the go

i hate it too   cos i like having fun bets      it     sorry 40 to 60 of what

u joking  right i think i will look else where   


why why  no no i just want to bet on footy   on HERE

now   i have gained a FEAR of betting with  my hero which is betfair

pls let me bet on here   

i am  a small timer

tell u what all my footy bet over the road  is in fact losing   it  so dam hard

  and what pi ss take    asking for 40 to 60   and  pay it      broke my brain

Does anyone know how much Betfair's annual turnover is compared to ****, is the latter growing at a significant rate which means that it could one day soon possibly challenge Betfair in terms of liquidity across all of the major markets?

Lol you can't even say their name!

I meant betquack.

Ok bird brains, work it out like this,

(1) the duckpond and betfair have roughly been trading the same amount of time.
(2) betfairs core sports horseracing and greyhounds are 12 times bigger in liquidy
(3) betfair offer more products and markets as they can afford it with there liquidity
(4) duckpond exaggerate there liquidity by showing the liability/win amounts as the matched stake amount.
(5) since pc1 betfairs liquidy has doubled

So who do you think is growing the fastest and has the best site and reputation around?

If you cant work it out then hold your head down in shame

Even if you are in favour of PC2 there is no need to be anti opposition exchanges which you systematically are. Monopolies are dangerous. Competition is good.

Considering they designed and invented the sporting exchange I think they have the right to make adjustments as long as they maintain there lead and still keep winners on-side.
If they mess up then they will learn and adjust but I cant personally see how big traders and bettors
can find another betfair, possibly some markets may be near betfairs on the other site but if you were
business minded you would use both sites, cant see how jumping from an ocean linear into a canoe is going to get you cross the ocean in time or style

If anyone (PC2 payer or not) can get a better deal on anything elsewhere they would be wise to do so. Betfair's change has made that a constant reality for these customers. If there is an alternative that can meet their needs they would be stupid to stay here.

cant see how jumping from an ocean linear into a canoe is going to get you cross the ocean in time or style

you would jump to if that Ocean linear was going to suck you under...

Thats very true and if they lose customers in there nearest rivals close market volume events
then they will learn from it, its a risky move I don't doubt that but if you were betting
in say horse racing or greyhounds then your expected profit volumes will still be so much better here
than else where.

The major concern is the effect the charges have on all users perception of betfairs customer policies and new customer rates as these are quite important factors in business, true they can implement the charge now when having such a healthy lead and in loo of the fact that pc1 didn't cause much damage but they cant be too self-assured that pc2 wont create a negative curve in losses in the future and a positive one for there competition.

The biggest problem is the bookmakers as they prove that if you design a system that cant be beaten
you will still find replenish-able amounts of mug punters to jump into there trap, this gives
gamblers a bad name and creates a numb skull rating to corporations views on the gambling public as a whole.

Good point nairda and your markets that you bet in allow you to jump with ease but it wont be as
easy for everyone else I am afraid

they can't learn from it...because it would mean those people who brought in PC2 lose their jobs...They are not about to do that are they ?

Why would your profit volumes be so much better here?

If a PC2 player decides they want to back one dog at evens this week, they have a choice of getting a 97.5% return with one company and as little as 40% with this company. Who in their right mind would do that?

what you doing here bf_fanantic ani't it time to clean bfs toilets

Then in that case its cast in stone, but it cant be so really, markets forces could one day force them to work differently. If they for instance make the same mistakes alot of new companies make
after good years and spend too much money on maintenance or expected growth that doesn't
pay back then there ship starts to take in water, some of the biggest names have gone through a transitional period in there development where by they start to cost more than they make and
I have wondered if betfair have actually met that point in there business, alot of the signs are there

what you doing here bf_fanantic ani't it time to clean bfs toilets

The big boss man are you retarded, such a shame still  keep smiling sunshine

Good point nairda and your markets that you bet in allow you to jump with ease but it wont be as
easy for everyone else I am afraid

There was no market over the road 5 weeks ago...But their was no market in 2001 at betfair for many sports awell, but I understood that betfair growing would be a good thing for me, and I put time and money into betfair, even when I could get set at some other bookmaker...

2001 to 2003, if bookamker was prices was 2.00...i would ask for 2.04 on betfair, and leave it right up to the last min to see if I could get matched on betfair (same price after commis)....now  if betfair is 2.00, I ask 1.95 over the road (same prices after commis plus P2)

.what you doing here bf_fanantic, ani't it time to clean bfs toilets.

Well narda I don't blame you as I can see for some it will pay to bet elsewhere
betfair will work out just how much core interest has moved when they process figures say 3-6 months
on from the pc2 start and I suspect there will be alot more in-trepidation then when they
ported pc1, time will tell.

Do me a favour big bossman and block me ffs

still here? clocking time soon

You still here,I thought your lot died out when we fell out the trees and ate our chit for breakfast[;)]

that was aimed at big boss man, what a stupid forum name

loserrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ******** picking up time

Well narda I don't blame you as I can see for some it will pay to bet elsewhere
betfair will work out just how much core interest has moved when they process figures say 3-6 months
on from the pc2 start and I suspect there will be alot more in-trepidation then when they
ported pc1, time will tell

betfair will not do this..have to fire people who brought in PC2 before that could happen

Love the gaurdians quotation " betfair welcomes winners with open palms" so true!

I don't feel so welcome

I know and I feel for all betfair customers , its a shame its come to this and lets hope there
is light at the end of the tunnel

Ok bird brains, work it out like this,


I don't like being called birdbrains but I take your point.

let it go

bff