Liquid Purple

Game just KOd.  And in-play liquidity looks good.
Seems that a viable alternative has emerged, at last.

aint as simple as that purple are god awful ...

2 japansese footy matches aren't  even actively managed in play for a start !

nothing changing anytime soon

almost as if the purple are scared of bet fair

Put it this way, it can't be bad news can it?

2 japansese footy matches aren't  even actively managed in play for a start !

I've never bet on Japanese football, so that makes zero difference to me.  SO long as the major games are in-play and liquid...

not to mention nothing matched an most the markets aren't even up

247 000 quid matched here ... few k there


... i wish i could get away with paying 2 percent rather than how much i do

Japanese Football

Btw I don't mind if volumes on purple soar and BF is thus forced to revise the PC down or retract in full.
Who wouldn't from a purely selfish, short term view of things ?.
I'm more interested in debating about whether BF's PC commission decision is wrong in totality and/or whether purple's low flat charge one is really sustainable in the long run, or whether purple will be able to handle the take out by the big money grabbing bots any better than BF can.
These are the big picture things that really matter.
A short, or even medium term, pick up in purple volumes will not, in the end, decide the issue.

Now deduct my matched volumes here, and add to there.  Multiply by another couple of big football players.

Why Betfair have decided to do this I'll never know.  Allowing customers to be fleeced so as to get a cut, but alienating customers like myself?

Japanese football is a hell of a lot better than many of the " dodgy " European leagues.

Mr Angry - are bets being matched in-running that you can see over there?  That's the crucial missing piece of the jigsaw if they are too truly compete.

how can they be matched ... most the markets 1.5 , 3.5 next goal etc aren't even up!

Well, not as much being matched, but there is plenty to match.  A few gaps in the prices, but sometimes it's the opposite.  The real test will come when the PL starts.

The big leagues are as clean as one would reasonably expect.  PL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A (hopefully from now).  Those leagues attract the most attention.  Who needs 40+markets in minor leagues?

Most of those other markets are derivatives of Match Odds, and that seems fine for this first match of the season.

I would expect that BF have modelled any and all likely short to medium term volume/player movements over to purple and think it will have no discernible net profit effect on their bottom line.
In fact maybe they're even hoping that certain of the really rapacious bots go over there en masse, and will look gleefully as purple comes crashing down as a result ?.
Ever thought that BF might in fact be deploying some rally Machiavellian scheme to put purple out of business once and for ever ?.
I'm surprised that many of the conspiracy theorists on here haven't in fact already come up with that one.

" --some really Machiavellian scheme---"

They won't want any liquidity spread to thinly. Got to get the money over there first, then they can start with the extra markets....just as BF did before they got enough funds on board.

FINE AS FROG HAIR, Replies: 3553

-----

More betfair lies

I would expect that BF have modelled any and all likely short to medium term volume/player movements over to purple and think it will have no discernible net profit effect on their bottom line.

Well, I once got a hamper from Betfair, so I guess I should be thankful.

Betdq are not afraid of Betfair. They are afraid of not being able to cope because they dont have/want to make any big investments to do so. If they did,they would have done it by now and curbed Betfairs growth.

Yeah Lex may be right.
Now that would be a turn up wouldn't it ?
Btw winning thought can't say your reply actually makes sense ( here on this thread at least.)

FAFH - any idea why Betfair has, for years, allowed customers to be fleeced by court-siders, course-siders, and trap-bettors, and only now decided to take a cut?  Surely the better long-term approach would have been to have closed those loopholes to make the markets as fair as possible?  Perhaps then there would be no need to tax profits?

(whereas someone like myself -and various other members - who use the skills as taught by the Betfair trading team are now taxed off the site)?

Liquidity attracts volume, Volume attracts liquidity.

The iron rule of markets.

Really? [smiley:crazy]

Liquidity isn't the answer ,it's the profits available to the players ...ergo if the profits aren't forthcoming on Purple like they would be on here then the interest will sadly die .QED

ipso facto

the question is, how are the quack going to get the losers on board in numbers?

an exchange composed primarily of big winners with a few small losers is logically impossible.

How did Betfair get them?

But it's not a question of losers and winners.  It's a question of numbers.  The more money flowing, the better.  Don't be fooled into thinking like Betfair management does.  It's an Exchange, not a tax system.

Betfair got them by offering freebies and mass advertising /huge publicity /novelty factor ...can't see it working twice .

well, that's partly true, and increased liquidity, tighter books etc will attract some recreational punters over, if only through the comparison sites.

but the bottom line is, if the exchange is composed mostly of BF/ex-BF winners, what's going to happen? most will find that they can't make money over there and drop out.

so the quack needs a large, rapid influx of mugs or all this is irrelevant.

I'm just looking at the liquidity.  There's enough at Purple for me to operate.

I now have a green book on this match.  The thought of giving 40% of that away is physically sickening. 

the japanese games were fine on match odds if u were laying 
did ok on them
but as you say the scottish game is almost the same on match odds for trading as bf   so its pretty obvious where to go for that
and not get hammered on comish

I;ve traded about AUD 5K on the current Test match at Purple, often at better prices than here. Far more than any previous Test match.

Rocket, You could phrase it as,

In a market, more sellers attracts more buyers, and more buyers attracts more sellers.

you are spot on mr angry 
I just can't see the point of trading on here now(I am a manual trader of correct scores and layer of match odds - match odds I rarely trade though)
I see no point in paying any of the new or older pc charges when I can do this elsewhere
I have been on here some time and I just don't get what betfair are up to
they have never stopped any of the bots courtsiders etc so I don't see where the high moral ground can be with betfair - they just want to grab more money and make themselves look good in the city
the idea that betfar is at risk is bogus  as they are very very profitable despite wasting oodles on 'projects'

That makes slightly more sense.

But I was confused with how you were defining Liquidity and Volume.

By the way if Betfair found it more profitable to their bottom line to expand into casino, arcade, poker etc then is there any reason Betdakk won't reach the same conclusion?

has anyone been checking the volumes on the Rangers game SINCE going in play  compared with BF ...that's normally where the difference lie ,forgot to check grrr

Rocket,

Liquidity is widely misunderstood here.

Liquidity is the capacity of market to absorb sales/trades without affecting prices.

By the way if Betfair found it more profitable to their bottom line to expand into casino, arcade, poker etc then is there any reason Betdakk won't reach the same conclusion?

lol,

Bf have lost large amounts in these ventures.

Ok so in that case we have another exchange which will not go down those routes - unless they think they can make them profitable.

Plus an exchange that does not need to raise funds to cover the costs with a premium charge

@ Coach - liquidity for the Rangers game in play was equal to and sometimes better than Betfair's.

@ Rocket & FAFH - perhaps **** will impose some increase in charges.  But for it's cheap, and people are already voting with their feet.  I would estimate that a low-budget advertising campaign targeted at football could be enough to greatly increase customers.  Who's to say that **** won't be bigger than Betfair?  But if they have any sense then they will concentrate on the exchange by making it fair for all.  Betfair's policy of unfair-but-we-take-a-cut-so-thats-okay has ruined its long-term appeal.

Thank's Mr Angry ... will monitor from now on

but I thought bf were breaking even on the bigger players anyway or have I got that wrong so why the need to raise funds  I dont get it at all
think its all a load of bs
oh nice lay of cologne v arsenal as we speak gervin's first goal

yes  I was more that satisfied with the other site for trading on the rangers game but the arse friendly with cologne is pants  but if u r a layer of match odds u can still do well

Well I can understand Betfair's position.  They advertise to gain customers, a proportion of whose deposits is being syphoned off by large customers who don't pay a "fair share".  In that sense, it is a business decision.

However, I can't help but feel that it's an easy option.  If someone somewhere is syphoning off money will next to zero risk, then the system is at fault (court-siding, the fiasco of the Spanish football, course-siding, insider dealing, etc).  Instead of working hard to stop this syphoning off they've opted to take a cut instead.  The Super PC is hugely damaging long-term (imho), since when you compare to a company who does not charge a PC every man and his dog would be mad to agree to such terms.  The dream is killed.

but thats it mr A   they don't and never have tried to stop it!!! (bots -courtsiders etc) So what does that make them ??
I understand business decisions as I have had to make many myself but it isn't how I would be spending my profits - certainly the way they put it.
What additional customers are they going to attract with all this bad PR and spending 100 quid on average for each new punter??!!!
and again repeating myself it is also a lot to do with share price and how it looks to the city

The only problem with Betdakk that I had (perhaps things have changed) is that they don't offer some of the markets I want. I offered to provide liquidity if they would offer the markets all of the time. They wanted to enter into an agreement whereby I offer a % book every time.


This says to me that they are after exactly the type of people that will be leaving Betfair.


So what have they done to capture them? As far as I know, nothing.

yes rocket  -  there are not the markets as you say - but my experience on japanese games and the rangers game has been positive
we will wait and see
but if the big games have enough money on them ie epl etc spain etc  then it will be enough for me and the rubovian 3rd team reserve ex players games offered by bf can go f... themselves ha ha

Yeah on the whole an increase in activity over there can only be a good thing and I did notice there was far more getting matched in Match Odd

again, if this is an influx of winners betting against each other, the logic is that the new losers will drop out as they realise what they did on BF is no longer working, and liquidity will fall again.

I'm in the process of rewriting my football bots to work simultaneously here and over there. Should be ready in about a week.

Me too, Contrarian.  I have a number of people who use my software too (non PC payers), so they'll also have the automatic option to Daq.  It's actually quite exciting.

Contrarian are you doing this yourself or contracting somebody?

do Daq have a minimum bet policy and if so can you bet below it using several bets as you can here?

£1 minimum

Thanks 1,01 layer - I havnt looked at my Daq account in very long time, I think I will now.
I like to cover the outsiders for a few pennies hence my question

Is it not 50 pence minimum?

Yes, you're right. I'd never tried it before. 50p it is but it doesn't show on the site.

I must point out that I am in no way promoting a competitor, just helping a bf customer clarify some information.

Helping a future Daq customer actually !

when liquidity moves, it will move fast from one site to another site...

Its something of a myth that the duck wouldn't be able to handle the volume.

Serving pages is their bottleneck and  that is a fairly easy problem to fix. Unlike processing bets which is rather harder.

Betfair's never crashed, has it

Rocket,

I do all my coding myself.

Mr Angry  - what is your software?

Good stuff Contrarian - is that in excel for a bought product or totally your own software?

On the horses today it was exactly service as normal on bf--and as usual (or rather as per the average) I made a tiny profit on here and a more significant one w/ the high st books.

Bf offers either an expensive hedging facility or o.k.-priced bank management and smoothing facilities if you can get on in greater size (or for an amount that commits most of your working bank for every betting day) somewhere else. This bank for me is around 25-40k and I can't use every penny of it every day for sure--but most of it.

I guess I'm the kind of losing/small winning/breakeven customer (on here) they're pleased to keep. I'm providing liquidity mostly on hot horses or horses that are really unfancied.

It's disturbing to think what happens when I run out of friends, contacts and bookie accounts.

I am mainly using the bookies.Especially baldy as he has welshed and I am doing very well.
I am using the maxiumum insider info I have and placing maximum money management and disguise to
extract as muuch cash over the next year.
He won't even know I have taken the cash.I am almost invisible to him.
I also use the usa toota as the odds are often better than the exchange.

have moved over to purple after many yrs on betfair.

been playing on the darts and a bit of tennis and although yes there are gaps in

the market and a lot of flashing on/off bots, there is at least a resonable amount

of money there and at 2.5% compared to the 40% im on, i can afford to offer over

the going rate on betfair.

Rocket,

It's all my own software (mainly in C# and C++).

Sadly I can't stand how the purple website operates. And I don't seem able to save my options when i change them. It doesn't seem to have a "save changes" button.

Probably just being a div but I really find it quite unusable right now. e.g. if i hit lay then it always inputs the available lay money at that price as my bet size, can't seem to stop it.

Ok, was being a div (ish). Had to stretch the option box to show up the "save" button. Quite why it doesn't hover above the rest of the screen I don't know. Could be game on now!

if i hit lay then it always inputs the available lay money at that price as my bet size

If you click on the money number it does this, if you click on the price it leaves the box blank.

Actually quite handy for taking all available in a hurry.

Thx Lori

Thats useful to know. A couple of times in the last few days I've tried to grab all at a price and once missed out being too slow.

Something I haven't seen mentioned much about over there is that if you're a market maker using their API, and a high proportion of your bets are "taken" rather than you taking bets already offered, then your commission rate can be as low as 1%, which is what mine is.  So I can offer better prices over there.  Hopefully this will create a trading opportunity for someone else using both platforms who's not paying PC.

Thanks Lori. Not exactly clear when hovering over it, only shows as one button.

There are several decent features there that aren't available here and as far as I can see NONE of them are mentioned/advertised. Seems a real waste.

*That's not to be biased, there are several decent features here that aren't available there as well.

Yes, the best feature here being PC2 which means that Betfair has a stable financial future.  I'm amazed they don't advertise this.

prices on correct score were same as bf on celtic today

lmlac

didn't know this...so how much trading volume you have to give to get 1% on betduck?

If I understand it correctly, if you're on daqs new scheme and haven't had any bets yet or haven't bet for 7 weeks, then just 1 single 50p make bet without any take bets might be enough to drop you to 1% for the following week.

nairda,
It's not the trading volume that's important, it's the proportion of bets that get taken by other people compared to the bets you yourself take. For instance your bot puts up a bet of £85 which gets taken by someone else later. And then your bot sees a good price already there for £15 and takes it.  So 15% of these two bets is "Take". So according to the table below you'd be on 1.25% commission. Obviously it's a bit more complicated because they use the previous 7 weeks figures to get the % split.

Scalable Commission Table

Take%  Comm Rate

95-100    5%

90-94     4.50%

85-89     4%

75-84     3.50%

65-74     3%

55-64    2.50%

45-54    2%

35-44    1.75%

25-34    1.50%

15-24    1.25%

0-14     1%

Several big players have moved across, but they won't stay unless that prompts a permanent growth.

Will betquack seize the opportunity? Past evidence suggests they're content with a small but profitable business, and aren't overly bothered about growing it.

Are they profitable yet?

I was under the impression the owner was pumping a lot of his own money into it and it had shown a loss.

Hopefully this is not the case anymore

I am a manual trader, layer and occasional backer so the discussion around bots and anything else doesn't concern me ie percentage of profit
I just back at prices I am ok with and if I think someone is not going to win then its a lay even at high odds.  prices on correct score and match odds on celtic game were the same as betfairs
wonder if this will contiue particularly on correct score which is one of my main vehicles for profit

It seems impossible to change the odds on an unmatched bet.

Have to cancel and re-submit.

Well, can do it by deleting the odds and then re-entering new odds - but not by changing a few ticks using the up and down arrows.

[>o][>o][>o]viva la revolucion![>o][>o][>o]

i move the odds by clicking up and down..it the same as betfair

lmlac, is this commission structure only for API users or does it hold across the site? Do you have to put up a certain amount of liquidity to be an API user?

Just out of interest[;)]

nairda Joined: 05 Jan 07
Replies: 717 25 Jul 11 23:17   
i move the odds by clicking up and down..it the same as betfair 

Me too, on both price and stake.

You know it is sort of decent for BF to permit its forum to be used as an instruction manual for using purple.
Very British of them.

The test match that just ended the duck traded 4M (USD).

Much better than previous tests.

Yes, the best feature here being PC2 which means that Betfair has a stable financial future.

I assume you are being ironic.

Changing current bets is the same as here except if you change the bet amount it changes the existing bet rather than create a new bet for the increased amount as here, Not clear what happens to the position in queue.

Does anyone know?

Past evidence suggests they're content with a small but profitable business, and aren't overly bothered about growing it.

They aren`t profitable, whatever gave you that idea ?

Luckily for us there is billionaire happy to keep the show running.

Askari, as far as I know you just have to be an API user, but of course with the same account you can also bet manually. I assume the commission rate applies to those bets as well.  I haven't really been using it much in the last 4 weeks because I've been on my hols, but my commission rate has stayed at 1%.

Their interface is Horribly User Unfriendly and altering an unmatched bet puts you at back at the queue TERRIBLE!

There is another competitor besides Purple any news about how they are shaping up? Call them the 3rd way!

BigMig
25 Jul 11 22:23 Joined: 30 Apr 05 | Topic/replies: 2,175 | Blogger: BigMig's blog
It seems impossible to change the odds on an unmatched bet.

Have to cancel and re-submit.


Apparently it's a firefox glitch, which they're trying to fix.  Doesn't happen on google chrome or ie.

Thanks, mate.

Yes, I am a firefox user.

Liquidity well down today on Japanese soccer here at BF.

to change odds easier, activate the single click option on he top left of market... then u can change as u do on betfair

the japanese soccer was cup football and i think had 7 games in play at same time.  On a wednesday morning!

On the flip side, pre match betting on tonights champions league seems strong.  4 of the 7 already above 100k with another well on the way