betfair is still the home of big winners, only now they have to pay there rent

And because Mr. bf_ finds time for poetry but not to answer simple questions and because he contradicts himself, another two quotes (from this thread two) where he implies that the money belongs to Bf and not to the customers

-- I have estimated form the figures released that betfair may of paid out as much or more than £375,000,000 to the top winners on betfair in the last 6-8 years

-- From the revenues of the company via money deposited

We welcome your clarification on the questions posted above by me and others.

Thanks for answering my question that iz77778 didnt ask the question you said, and my challenge for you to find the red herring failed, posting  some of my other quotes that are part explanations to other questions  fails to draw me to any new question you may be asking.

the small clarification that you need regarding is income in the form of money placed into customers accounts by account holders classed as revenue pleas take up your nonsensical stance with the wider business world as it clearly states {in bold type below}in wikipedia my claim or as you like to call implication

In business, revenue is income that a company receives from its normal business activities, usually from the sale of goods and services to customers. In many countries, such as the United Kingdom, revenue is referred to as turnover. Some companies receive revenue from interest, dividends or royalties paid to them by other companies.[1] Revenue may refer to business income in general, or it may refer to the amount, in a monetary unit, received during a period of time, as in "Last year, Company X had revenue of $42 million." Profits or net income generally imply total revenue minus total expenses in a given period. In accounting, revenue is often referred to as the "top line" due to its position on the income statement at the very top. This is to be contrasted with the "bottom line" which denotes net income.[2]

give it up your just looking rather silly now!

bff - could you explain this, thanks -



(b) the wagering funds of registered players must be held in trust by the licensed provider (or by an agent of the licensed provider approved by the Commission) and must not be disbursed or otherwise dealt with except as authorised under this Act or as the Commission, by instrument in writing, from time to time authorises;

(c) for the purposes of paragraph (b), an account used for the licensed provider's Tasmanian betting exchange operations must –

    (i) not be used for any other purposes; and

    (ii) be maintained with an authorised deposit-taking institution that carries on business in Australia, at a branch or office of that institution that is physically located in Tasmania; and

    (iii) be independently audited at least once every 12 months, and at such other times as the Commission may instruct;

Again, the money hasn't been received by Bf in exchange for anything, it is (or that's what the customers believe and the Gambling Commisision too) deposited for the customers to bet against each other.

And again, if Bf considers that "revenue" they haven't paid the appropriate taxes (please check the corporate accounts to see that the total revenue does not include the customer deposits, because if it did the total profit would be far greater and so would be the paid taxes)

We still welcome you answer: "To whom belongs the money deposited in the ring fenced account?"

I have always answered all questions correctly to my business knowledge and in line with common sense,
If you fair to comprehend the answers correctly then i cannot be held liable!

Please Mr. bf_

-- can you let us know if the profit posted by Betfair in 2010 include the customer deposits in the revenue?

Quoting from above: "Profits or net income generally imply total revenue minus total expenses"

A company under general rules do not have to pay taxes on money held in a company in the form of "revenue" that is used as a general value of all money involved with the company including all money incoming to the company, check the meaning once again and understand that revenue is a word that has different meanings in different context, just like in your context you think its all yours!

So revenue is variable. When Bf goes to pay taxes, the money belongs to the customers, but when it's about giving it back to the customers, it  belongs to Bf.

Can you please clarify your own comment: "just like in your context you think its all yours!" ?

Does the money belong to customers? (as posted by iz from the T&Cs: "the wagering funds of registered players" which in plain English seems to be: "the funds belong to the players")

there you go again chopping an pasting to get out of your corner, dont you know when your beat, no wonder a premium charge scares you so much as it makes you do something you cannot manipulate, perhaps you should thank your lucky stars you dont have to pay taxes instead of the premium charge or you wouldnt be able to keep hiding under your stone!

Can you please answer our (mine and also from others in this thread) question?

And the money in the ring fenced account belongs to ... ???

Let us know

according to you both wikipedia and bf_fanatic are incorrect in there understanding of revenue and betfair are going to pay a new mystery tax you wish upon them, wish all you like pilgrim

Can you please answer our (mine and also from others in this thread) question?

And the money in the ring fenced account belongs to ... ???

Let us know

bff - maybe you can try this one too -

76ZQ. Limits on use of player's funds

A licensed provider must not have recourse to funds held on behalf of a registered player...

I think you will find jason has answered that question in the thread involved regarding your last question pilgrim [please check]. and that sort of thread should not be posted on any forum of a company that users use in there daily quest to make profit as you clearly do as it adds potential harm to a companies image that is detrimental to everybody concerned and  shall not take part in spreading false rumors and scaremongering of betfairs legions.

iz77778 this rule is never broken by betfair, the rule of "manipulation of the facts or truth" is constantly broken by the same forum few, and you know who you all are !

I don't have the pleasure to know the aforementioned Jason, but sure enough he's a nice chap to drink a beer with.

It is surprising that you have stated several times in this thread that the money deposited in the ring fenced account belongs to Bf and I seem to be the one spreading false rumours and the one scaring people.

We all await you answer to the simple questions posted above. Let us know if you are willing to answer them or not.

when the roman armies decimated there legions in other words 10% were executed I am sure if the sum of the 10% was of a similar mind set of 10% of the some of the few lunatics that post tripe on here, the act would of been beneficial to the roman army exponentially . Hail betfair lol

iz77778 if I could find some logical reason for me to constantly go round in circles answering the same questions from the same forum roomies then I would find some justification for all the time and brain horse-power wasted that could of been spent doing something more constructive like perhaps sharing some wisdom on here or praising the betfair megabeast or refining and defining issues that spread harmony amongst us all, please tell me you dont work for some high street bookies because if not you should do and thats in answer to some of you saying I work for betfair which I do not, I work with betfair as a customer seeking to win just like betfair and perhaps I still love betfair because I believe they have the best betting service on planet earth and yes I am a fanatic and If you were honest you would say you are too!!!

If you "constantly go round in circles answering the same questions", you won't surely mind answering the only one you haven't answered.

"The funds in the ring fenced account belong to ..." ??

We sincerely appreciate your answer

To be fair, bf (the company not the fanatic) seem to be pretty clear who it belongs to.  It's just a function of time.

I will not answer the question are customers accounts or monies ring fenced as Justin Hubble, Head of Legal, Betfair.com has answered the question masterfully and in depth, and I think you are trying to get me involved in something that is the realm of legal persons of which I am not suitably briefed and anyway its none of my business to answer such a question!

certain persons are stupidly attempting to suggest that money is not secure on here when it is and trying to suggest that no-one can make a profit now because of a charge on persons clearly able to make a big profit and at the level that affords them much wealth even after paying the charge!

So after many previous claims you made that the money belongs to Bf and not the customers ... now you don't feel qualified to confirm your previous statements ...

By suggesting that the money no longer belongs to the customers YOU are suggesting that the money is not secure.

You'd be a serious contender for Prime Minister ...

Anyhow, since you now abide by what Mr. Hubble has stated, would you mind letting us know (copy & paste) what that is ... just for the sake of our enlightenment ...

(I am sure that, unlike you, he has never claimed that the money in the ring fenced account belongs to Bf, but I could be mistaken)

excuse me I have never said that betfair customers money does not belong to them, nor mentioned any reference to customers having any risk on money being kept in accounts with them, why you keep bringing this up saint-pilgrim I do not understand, betfairs users cab rest assured that there money is many times safer than funds deposited in a bookmakers as if there profits continually rise there accounts do not get closed as in the case of most well known pro-gamblers, what are you smoking pilgrim?

You have stated several times along this thread that the customer deposits belong to Bf revenue and even said that the money belongs to both parties.

I could again quote all your statements where you have said such a thing (that's why also many others have asked you the simple question: "To whom belongs the money in the ring fenced account?")

It seems like if now you support again the idea that the money belongs to customers (following the Gambling Commission rules, as posted by iz7778, under which Bf can hold the money "on behalf of the customer") and not to Bf "revenues"

In that sense, it is now clear that winners are not being paid from Bf revenues but from other customers' funds. Bf is simply acting as an exchange facilitating transactions amongst customers and charging a transaction fee.

Thank you for amending your position.

if thats the case do you propose then that all the customers make the policies and the skilled staff then with reversed roles get to play and try to make a living on a site that would give them massive prices at tiny commission rates and last about 12 minutes!

You spoke about Jason (Justin Hubble) and he has said: "The way it works is this. I should know. I designed it. That customer money in trust (say £250m?) that belongs to customers is not on the company books. It is not an asset of the company. It is not in normal company owned accounts."

He, unlike you, understands that the money belongs to the customers and is not in the company books and is not part of the revenue, assets or whatever.

But of course, trying to deviate attention from the topic is what counts when one has no arguments but selling corporate propaganda.

my reference to the word revenue is not mentioned in jasons rebuttal of the particular thread .
I stating that revenue belongs to a company only refers in "for the care of the customer" sense I never have said that monies in accounts dont belong to customers, why on earth you incessantly try to play with words and meanings for what cause other than some dreary " well its our money really so get rid of the premium charge "campaign cannot be justified by anyone with even a limited business knowledge as active reason for change or reverse. The charge is in place, has started, is here to stay and is a if highly topical, very important road change in the path to a better exchange model that has mutual respect and reward for the best bettors working on the best betting platform around, please find some new topic please and new forum poster to throw it too to prevent you from becoming too boring, good night saint!

bf_fananatic
21 Jul 11 13:32   

sparky, once your money goes into your betfair account its there money, all trade is done with an exchange, money in this case ,only what you withdraw is actually then yours, otherwise there would be no need for accounts, if it is all yours or customers then go and get it, getting charged according to your effect and heavy usuage of the site seems "fair" to me

well its theres on the basis that there handling it on our behalf, but when you sign up you agree to there disclaimer so charges can be made just like a bank and they don't have to ask your permission just like a bank, its in the agreement that you agreed to so how can anyone claiming its there money expect that they will be exempt from any charges incurred!

It amazes me that some of a group 99.9 % of customers complain so much about a charge that affects only 0.01 % of customers and yet its the 99.9 % of winners that lose so often to this group as the other group is on the winning side of the match more often then the other!

I haven't heard one customer complain on behalf of the staff that wont get there bonuses at betfair this year but the staff are noble and understand its for the good of the company, very few customers care about the good of the company that gives them top prices, lets them win, lets them trade, lets them use bots banned on other sites!

perhaps the greed so often tagged at betfair is what really has taken over some of the customers

What an utter bore.

perhaps if you werent addicted to your forum name your grey matter would be in a fitter state

dont feed the troll

Why would someone sign up to the forum for the sole purpose of relentlessly defending betfair?

Obvious vested interest.

of course I do, winning, the more betfair holds back from the mighty few, the more money it has too pay us and fuel its success , taxation works

us being 99.9% of users, why should the few get all our money!

let me think, ah your one of the 0.01% that pay the charge, no, hmmm, then why defend those that take the most!!!

your chance of being affect by pc is 1 in 10,000, hardly worth losing sleep over, and if you are on it your massively in front anyway!

I pay 20% premium charge and will likely be paying 50% within a year.

I don't think it's particularly fair that a betting exchange attempts to force out winners....

Ok, ok. You are blocked.

i never block anybody, fair argument wins for me!

McChick
And why are you being forced out ?
Simply because you wil make less ?
Less than what ?

none is being forced out, and if you cant raise your game or widen your betting portfolio use betfair in conjunction with other betting platform, the fact is even with the charge in place betfair still has the most to offer, liquidity on betduck is calculated differently and no where near betfairs.

hi fafh, reckon I have said my bit on here time to dive back into my form surveys before the saint surfaces with his usual cackle lol

I can understand somebody blocking somebody because they are being extremely abusive in a personal sense.
Otherwise?
I daren't conjecture.

It's not particularly feasible for me to pay a 50% premium charge and still make enough money to make it worthwhile full-time (when you also consider the potential for fluctuation in profit week to week vs a 50% charge for every winning week and no rebates).

I could attempt to up my stakes, but again I don't know if this is entirely feasible for my type of betting, and I don't know if I'd be comfortable taking on significantly higher risk at worse value.

FINE AS FROG HAIR
25 Jul 11 10:12 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 3,580 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
I can understand somebody blocking somebody because they are being extremely abusive in a personal sense.
Otherwise?
I daren't conjecture.

Because he is a robot spewing endless propaganda.... that's all he does.

hi fafh, the saint thinks me and you are the same, because he cant get one over on me, I deduce he doesn't tackle your intellect with much hope as well, I have respect for you fafh as your one of the better posters on here, perhaps your secret is staying off and having a drink, I may take up that system soon [;)]

Mc Chick
Absolutely you are correct in your decision if it reaches the stage that you can do something else that better rewards your time, effort and skills.

Maybe he's been at it 60 hours per week for 10 years? (Just guessing.) 25k per year isn't huge money. If that's reduced to 15k per year he might prefer getting a job as a garbage collector or something. Better pay and less variance.

very true fafh, I am staying off the forum now, I have too much catch up to do and cant justify posting on here all day, if betair had a better pr department or even had one, then I would get some rest lol[;)]

fine statement mr anderson, good argument

Again.

I doubt bf_fanantic would be espousing this endless pro PC propaganda if he was paying it or on the verge of paying it.

He seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that there will somehow be a bigger cut of the pie for the less able bettors such as himself or maybe enjoy the fruit of betfair's next fantastic new feature or arcade game. It's just attempted transference of profit from the big boys to betfair.

I find it odd that anyone holds the position that betfair should attempt to force out the smartest people on the exchange just because they want a bigger cut.

Bff
It's not about intellect, it's about common sense.
Some people seem to think that BF owes them a living in some form or manner.
BF is in the business of making a profit from its customers, and the customers are in the business of making a profit from the other customers.
BF has a primary duty of honesty and trust regarding handling the customers' monies.
As long as it fulfills that role, then everything else regarding charges etc should be driven purely by competitive market factors.

One can only hope that another exchange steps up to the plate consistently and offers a similar (hugely profitable) pricing structure to betfair's original model.

I understand that betfair is a business and doesn't owe anyone a living, but as far as I'm concerned they are making reactionary short term decisions in an attempt to boost projected profit and halt the share-price plummet. They are moving further and further away from their original business model and their USP.

bff, what is so laughable about Mr. Anderson's post ?  It could very weel be close to the truth.

Spot on fafh, its like some people claim that an exchange bears no risk like a bookmaker but its a marginal profit business and there is much risk in paying out a hardcore of winners that get better
over time and swell there ranks and perpetually win, at the same time theres a recession on and its more expensive to attract less new money (customers) into the site.

seems like they bear a lot of risk to me and I hope there policies reflect the longterm security and viability of the betfair Eco-system for us all.

you never hear all the people saying after the budget speech, oh I am not getting involved with this government and its country anymore, I am off to live abroad, especially if the speech was a raise in super tax that affects just 1 in 10,oooo.

I think the topic "is your belly button an inny or an outty" is more relevant and important than to us all then paying the new pc!

I think a few or even probably many of those affected would say som ething like that and actually leave.  Not a large number of persons, but a significant amount of taxes not being collected due to them moving abroad.

good point, but alot of big tax payers cant move there businesses abroad can they!

Betfair just did !

true, and them along with all the other betting companies might face a tough new change in the tax laws, taxation at point of consumption meaning all moves to Malta and Gibraltar were only good for working on a tan! the government has its own premium charge agenda!

Are you also implying that it's ok to raise taxes significantly on those who can't move or take their buisniss abroad , while not raising taxes for those who can ?

eddie are you reading things that arent in my posts, fed up with the
"i talk to little green men" brigade, pack it in[>o]

I just asked you a question, which you didn't answer.

oh dear me, you got me, I must be evasive then, oh dear I have been caught out, silly me

my belly button goes in!

sparky, once your money goes into your betfair account its there money

who said this bff?

It's so nice to be charged only 2.5 percent for winnings over the weekend

if  successfull people are cleaning up all the new money all the time, that money is going to run out, and betfairs share would dwindle fast, this has to be a big part of taxing the big sharks.

Economically this would be correct....in any other industry but gambling.
Gambling industry is recession proof and has child relationships.
In times of recession, big hitters are replaced with many more desperate monies. Loans fund the needy til it runs out and then is replaced by the next wave of gamblers.
There will always be punters to replace those punters lost.
People might bet less, but there are many more of them.
In fruitful times, the desperates are replaced by the big hitters again, and so it goes for the last few hundred years.

if  successfull people are cleaning up all the new money all the time, that money is going to run out, and betfairs share would dwindle fast, this has to be a big part of taxing the big sharks.

Economically this would be correct....in any other industry but gambling.
Gambling industry is recession proof and has child relationships.
In times of recession, big hitters are replaced with many more desperate monies. Loans fund the needy til it runs out and then is replaced by the next wave of gamblers.
There will always be punters to replace those punters lost.
People might bet less, but there are many more of them.
In fruitful times, the desperates are replaced by the big hitters again, and so it goes for the last few hundred years.

Gambling industry is recession proof what a load of cods wallop, no business is recession proof and all leisure industries suffer when there is less money in peoples pockets, what have you been smoking, have you not heard all the pleas of hardship from horse racing and greyhound tracks and the racing world in general, it effects everybody, book yourself in for a reality check today

The racing world is in decline, recession or not ?
Is football betting turnover down?
Tennis betting turnover down ?

bf_fananatic, there are businesses that are not only recession proof, but actually make more in times of recession.

Racing is in decline.

people are betting on different sports yes as this is a growing area but generally most betting on racing is down, thats called expanding your markets, but betting on racing is down.

regarding track-side attendances, these have been going down since 1930s as more forms of leisure have come into existence, the humble local pub has gone the same way as peoples choices and traditions have changed, you can stay at home now and instead of watching the clock on the wall you can watch 1000s of tv channels from around the world or go on the information highway!

But realistically if the general public has less money than they have less to spend weather it gets spent in one place or another.

would agree that some businesses actually do better off in a recession, I worked for a security firm and a recession meant more crime and more security needed !

The public doesn't have less money to spend, the BoE is seeing to that thank you very much.

Fooball and tennis are on the up, racing is down 5%-6% in bookies, machines in hs bookies are up 13%,poker has peaked and is a saturated market, bingo is actually very much in demand for women as its the number 2 betting spend for them next to lottery, wish betfair would hurry up and launch it instead of pumping 10 mill into lmax which is really a waste in my opinion!

Sports books are becoming popular and could be extra revenue for betfair but with pc2 it would counter against them for obvious reasons unless you have a separate account for books which would have to be the case and then legality issues may require another site with name change, would be interesting
to know how this idea is developing but I don't have that sort of information although some would tell you I work for betfair, I take that as a compliment actually

just like to remind everyone that I the creator of this post is not an employee of betfair, just a normal guy that respects things for what they really are and likes to speak the truth against greed based customer posts and threads.

I am just an average Joe,I do stick up for those that cannot speak or answer back, today I picked a dying dog up off the road while everyone else just looked and tried to get help and I donated to east African aid, not much I don't have much but at least I try, what have you done today apart from moaned about paying a charge that might alter your greedy ego[:(]

Some of the 60% PC reasons don't add up to me:

Betfair wants to keep the "money" in the markets, but by penalising the winners, they will eventually all leave; therefore removing a hell of a lot more money than was being removed by them via withdrawals. Liquidity will only continue to decline (as has been happening already).

The other issue is once you reach £250,000 (AU $371,000) in lifetime profits, then you attract the charge. So, say in 5 years (if BF is still around), many more people will be on the PC2 charge as that figure is not very high at all to achieve over a long-term period. Even small-time winners could accumulate a lifetime of winnings close to that amount within a 5-10 year period.

It is not worth using BF if you are giving away 60% of your winnings. Are they forgetting that these "winners" actually provide a great portion of liquidity into the markets? Regardless of how much they win or take-out as they continue pouring money into the markets anyway.

Without all the big earners on here, we won't see the huge spikes in-running that are often seen (and enjoyed) such as horses going 1000-1 in-running and then going on to win - even if SP was evens.

Ok lets look at how the exchange model works first properly before I answer your claims bobman84

1....Bettors bet on 2 sides of an outcome for a runner,player,team or x event

2....The margins are much tighter than a bookmaker who eliminate loss before hand by an over-round
that is quite high.

3....Money comes into the site via active accounts, and into events via bets.

4....Money comes out of the system via active accounts and event outcomes.

5....New money or customers come into betfair via advertising, advertising comes out of profits.

6....Profits come out of charges made via commissions that are perceived low to RAISE your chances of making a profit.

7....Betfairs exchange model is classed as a marginal profit business type as vis commission charges only 2% is very low compared to gross 25% for high street bookmakers say.

8....Betfairs ability to compete, advertise,expand, finance new products, recruit staff etc
has to come out of its small commission charge.

Anyone reading thus far with a good head for understanding how betfair works will be thinking
there is a huge overhead in providing a good platform for users on such a small margin!

Next, what changes has Betfair had to apply and why to sustain this model and its growth!

1....Look for private investment as there is a need to power all operations fiscally beyond the budget of organic profit, this is what all businesses have to do in formative years(growth)

2....Look to protect revenues from the disciplines that encourage winning customers

3....Introduce a premium charge in 2008 to fight the bots, traders , bookmakers that continually win
virtue of the exchange betting advantage systems.

4....Introduce a pc 2 charge to put a brake on the big 500 or so that make and take millions continually from revenues and off losing customers.

5....Introduce shares to help bring in investment.

6....Upgrade the infra-structure to accommodate growth, address tax burdens, research,develop and launch new products.

I could go on, and on, and on but I got a great idea, if you have loved what betfair has achieved and done so far for the betting community then at least give them some credit and support
and have faith in them for they have tried there best and continue to perform well.

ok Bob in answer to your claims

1....Betfair do not want to penalize winners just charge a rate to them that reflects what betfair does for them bringing the millions of pounds in via there success running the company and paying for new customers, Betfair still encourage winners to the exchange!

2....If all or many customers are going to hit this £250,000 as you so wildly claim then how would this be sustainable, the exchange would collapse, would that be good the biggest and best exchange collapsing, then hail the pc charge for its future proofing of system!

3....How can it be not worth using betfair when all pro-punters know betfairs liquidity is actually 10 times at least there nearest rival , (60% of 10 x other site)is better than (100% of the other site) if you understand any maths at all!

4....Your complaint about in running odds variation is something that will occur in a real-time
second by second risk basis, if you cant hadle the data play a slower risk-chance altering model.

Gotta hit the cocktail cabinet before I start to read and try to absorb that monster post.

I'd need to finish it [:o]

I know fafh its inspired, I can see people now getting the"he works for betfair " mud ready for throwing, but I dont care , hardly anyone(except a few like you) give betfair any credit for what they have achieved or they are trying to do and its not"fair", just people moaning about there self love affair with personal gain(greed)

How is your forum name pronounced, bff?

bf_fanatic my eyes get tired sometimes and it was a mis-spelling.

Shame, I hoped 'fanana' rhymed with banana

wishful thinking cat

Thanks for your reply, bff.

I do see the good side but just remember the only greed happening here is from Betfair and not from winning punters.

I think 20% was a fair compromise for a premium charge, but a sudden rise to 60% is definitely not a smart move.

Now, the other issues here are Betfair's Customer Service is not up to scratch. There are numerous site issues which have not been addressed (even after years of complaints). New updates are always brought out but the original issues are never fixed.

I see both good and bad!

regarding the 60% level of charge it may seem harsh but then getting to keep %40 of a telephone number in winnings ain't bad as its all good cash[;)]

seriously I thought it was harsh at first but it has to be 60% for very good reasons I have concluded!

Its like this betfair or any exchange make an incy whincy profit on a winning bet that has to be tiny to enable bettors the chance of using a betting model that can give them profits were a bookmaker at battered odds could not. Now this commission charge can be as low as 2% which sharpens up any edge a good bettor can find but therein lies the problem, its so small that its never going to power a betting giant like betfair for long so just like bookmakers and other business like banks they rely on the money to keep circulating round and round to keep the pennies and pounds coming in.

Then when you have a model that makes money for betfair and its customers a new problem surfaces
Trading bots, manipulating the pricing mechanisms and other customer type that make very big profits out of the system, this money then gets withdrawn quickly so the more money betfair attracts into the exchange, millions gets creamed off by the pro punters that betfair encouraged!

So now what do you do if your betfair, you cant afford to let the money drain away and run the business properly when your incy whincy commision charges aren't getting applied to the big winners profits that shoot out the system at ever greater and bigger rates!

So if you were betfair what would you do, scrap the exchange model and give up?

eureka the premium charge, it adjusts the level that money floats out of the system, it allows you to bet and win, but it keeps the fluidity of money solid otherwise so far down the line it could go terribly wrong and that would be bad for all us that love betfair and the company, If your just interested in getting a massive uncharged chunk of money then you could play the lottery but only betfair gives you the edge to actually win on regular basis not at 12 million to one but with a good trade say 100% win rate, now that cant be bad can it[;)]

have a look at my thread that i just posted, its an idea to replace the premium charge it could work and have a look but it would need support, it could be the answer to all our problems

Gambling industry is recession proof what a load of cods wallop, no business is recession proof and all leisure industries suffer when there is less money in peoples pockets, what have you been smoking, have you not heard all the pleas of hardship from horse racing and greyhound tracks and the racing world in general, it effects everybody, book yourself in for a reality check today

There is knowledge and then there is reality.
One man's reality is different to another's, but knowledge is knowledge.
Wisdom is the ability to make that knowledge a reality.

A business lesson.
A history lesson.
An economics lesson.

What is the oldest profession in the world?
What is the second oldest profession in the world?
Both are recession proof.

While an industry may be in decline, that has nothing to do with gambling, it is to do with marketing, technical advances and corporate mismanagement.

What they happen to do at Chepstow or how much money they made at Limerick, has nothing to do with how much money is turned over on a race off-course.

Beat the over-round there is strong proof that your right as I assumed that sports markets are in decline but not on betfair! they are in some bookmakers as there quarterly figures show so why the difference in performance but I will have to agree with you on this one as your estimation seems more credible than mine so I apologize for the mistake!

It could be that some sports are suffering because of less sponsorship because of the recession
but clearly gambling is doing quite well!

What is the second oldest profession in the world?

I didn't know the answer to this so I googled it and apparently it's politics. I did like this quote by Ronald Reagan though.

"It's been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."

Thats a brilliant quote, like it loads, gambling must be high on the list as games go back thousands of years and bets were placed on the Olympics, chariot racing, etc, its also mentioned in the bible about games played for money involving chance!

Actually, it goes back to biblical times.
The oldest profession was lady of the night.
The second oldest profession is gambling related.

Although "the second oldest profession" is often used as a throw away line for many professions, it means the profession is old, but not...."that profession".

From the days of the gladiators, they bet with bookies on the outcome of events which is why there was so much prestige and people got into a frenzy over harder and harder arena games.

Dont forget that there was betting on more civilized sports long before the gladiators
and profit from barbaric forms of symbolic imperial power are not to be encouraged[;)]

Does that include election betting?

No, betting on that is fine!

I will seed my own threads rather than have silly ones at the top