liquiditiy will keep rising as the knowledge that winners are excepted though charged is positive

i don't believe winners will bet more money, to win less....if they still betting here after new PC, there turnover must drop as they win less..

the size of my betting bank is the same size as it was 2 weeeks ago, but now you belive i will turnover more money with the same size bank, but make less money each time

i think winner will work harder...they will work harder at having the bets match away from betfair

i think you only have to see betduck today, and  the tennis matchers at Baku to see what 1 person can do to trading size

your arguement there nairda is based on your own circumstances , you personally cant expect to win more if you dont either increase your profit margin or your bet size when speculating, and if you dont pay the top premium charge it wont affect you.

all businesses as top earners are more or less on here, if finding there returns are now lower due to costings, payments to keep running, then if a said business wishes to recapture the previous level of profit must look for either new markets, increased business or new business territory , isnt that what betfair have to do and have done for years so betfair customers can operate in good liquidity!

Betfair wont use their premium charge to promote their site
taken from the what a shambles thread and remember it's far worse now and needs updating


SEPTEMBER 2001

Joe Punter: Twenty tenners please.

Betfair Bob: You would be better off putting that on Betfair rather than this betting shop, It could be as much as 40 on there, less 5% comm, gives you over 37/1.

Joe Punter: Really? I will have a look at that.


SEPTEMBER 2008

Joe Punter: Twenty tenners please.

Betfair Bob: You would be better off putting that on Betfair, it could be as much as 40 on there, less your commission, which is your net winnings multiplied by the Market Base Rate, after your Discount Rate is converted from your Betfair Points Total, and applied to the Market Base Rate, unless of course, you have taken a Betfair Holiday, when your Betfair Points will not be credited, so your Discount Rate will remain the same, but you won't be subject to a 15% decay in your Points Total at the end of the week.

However, if you win you may qualify for the Premium Charge of up to 22.5% which is dependant on your forthcoming weekly profit in relation to the commission payable for that week or on a rolling 60 week average, which is when your commission and implied commission is calculated and divided by two, which is ok because it can be offset against the £1000 Premium Charge allowance, and at the end of the week you find out what price you got.

Joe Punter: Twenty tenners please.

by the way betfair staff have had to for go this years bonuses so dont think premium payers are the only persons expected to help keep the business heading in the right direction, others have made sacrifices too, by the way I dont work for betfair as some folk think, I just try to keep an open mind on things and both sides of an arguement must be always be researched.

look at the horse racing on purple if you want to see improving liquidity

buzzer, you seem to miss the whole idea of betting on an exchange, you may well make more profit on paper if you are a regular winner and comparing bookmaker prices than you might using betfair prices but in reality you are a regular winner your account would be suspended on a bookmakers for winning all the time or you would be bannned from there shops, i recently learned that when i used a local bookmakers while winning far too often and they pounced on me when I was owed £900 on a bet, the staff member and the help assistant on the phone admitted i placed it before time on the correct runner that won, but do you think I got paid when i had been winning hundreds from them on several occasions?

no, i havent used that firm since, i have no faith in bookmakers at all

I have never had any problems with getting paid out on betfair, and if I had to fore go some of my net profits if I was a regular big winner on betfair I would be happy to do so than get banned and rip off in using a high street bookmaker !

Betfair where an even money winner is paid out at 2/5!!!

people have been banned for winning £1000 from bookmakers, do you think high rollers are welcomed in there shops and websites?

ok dashero fair point but if a consistant winner keeps getting paid out on the only exchange that offers the liquidity that they have built up it beats the even money payout you wont get from a bookmaker when he tells you to get lost.

answer that one?

I think you're totally missing the point here.
Betfair want to attract more casual, losing punters to their site so where do they want to get these punters from?
Ah, of course, the bookies but they wont want to be telling these 'mugs' that if they happen to get their acts together and win that they'll be hit with a 22.5% charge then, if they continue to be successful, up to a 60% charge. Many are already set in their ways and wouldn't entertain betfair as an option and if you mention premium charges they'd be scared off for life and tell all their bookies mates too. Betfair require/need losing punters on here so that they can, eventually, bleed them dry with commission but they want that money bouncing around for as long as possible skimming bits off here with x matching, bits off their with their mug multiple odds..etc before they take everyones money over a period of time.

if regular winners that have potentially made millions out of betfairs platform cant give something back to the eco system that supports them, then if betfair cant increase new customer levels and maintain productivity where will there profit margins be in another ten years time, its a two way street!

oh, ok...i get it......bf_fananatic is actually 'scooter' the betfair public relations bot. programmed to pr the pc ffs.

buzzer do these people than you speak of say mugs in bookmakers, lets say there shop, if there were 500 people in there winning over £250,000 in total , the shop admitted it and said its so bad we have to take some off them as its costing us and yet they still allowed them in, do you think then that would put them off going in that bookmaker or make them think, gee I must get in on the action and keep trying the bookmakers is a gambling haven in this shop, take your time buzzer to think it over!

plus the premium charge will help promotions and therefore liquidity in the future so top players will benefit somewhere down the line, as they have thus far thanks to betfair!


Betfair wont attract new customers with their skimming, thieving and taxation, can't you see that?
Gamblers do talk and all that betfair have done over the last three years is stunt their potential growth by moving away from the exchange, person to person, model. They don't use these methods in areas where they have strong competition but where they have the monopoly they do. Bet da q is fast improving and will only get stronger despite what the betfair apologists say I think they've gone a step too far in their quest to seed their own markets, which is what they've wanted to do for a while now, and have shot themselves in the foot. Time will tell.

and...

Blocked

no I dont get anything from betfair, but I think there is too much negativity going on just because a select small group are going to have to be more creative to make more money. I cant agree that the rate of premium charge is the correct rate , maybe its just too high, but I do think giving something back to ensure the future of the eco system that you operate in is only fair! I have actually been on both sides of the arguement but now I have looked at the bigger picture

"plus the premium charge will help promotions and therefore liquidity in the future so top players will benefit somewhere down the line, as they have thus far thanks to betfair!"

Like the Betfair Happy Hour casino promotion!!!!!

I don't need to think about it.
Bookmakers take a risk, despite big overrounds, the exchange model takes a commission and isn't exposed to any risk whatsover that was the beauty of the exchange model. What is so difficult to understand?

Joe Punter: Twenty tenners please.

Betfair Bob: You would be better off putting that on Betfair rather than this betting shop, It could be as much as 40 on there, less 5% comm, gives you over 37/1.

Joe Punter: Really? I will have a look at that.

Betfair Bob: The only problem is that if you win consistently in the long term you will have to pay more commission and there is an even higher rate due once your winnings exceed £250k.

Joe Punter: I should be so lucky.

Don't have to win over 250k to incur a premium charge....

joined 17 july 11   and an expert on betfair  hmmmmmm.......

well buzzer, firstly top earners on here that will pay pc will not stop using betfair, even if they use other exchanges, profit is profit however big or small, I think your talking of the percieved company image, well thats still sound because betfair is now like sliced bread in betting circles and the bread aint gone stale, far from it, and if the net result is other exchanges getting some increased action this will only make more competition between exchanges which again will be a good thing and raise the profile of exchanges verse bookmakers higher, its the bookies that are trembling in there boots not the exchanges, to say you lot use betair all the time perhaps a little understanding of what they are trying to do for the exchanges benefit and less mud slinging would be a
"fairer position all-round"

They, betfair, don't want to be an exchange any more!

anyway nearly 4 million users are on betfair , havent heard all them complaining and certainly the top 500 havent been on here complaining or the forum would jam.

If the paying of the premium charge safegaurds the interests of the premium payers right to survive and thrive on the only betting sites that allow them long term and helps the small margin based exchange company expand and promote all betfair users interests, then logically in the interests of all involved with this exchange, it must be deemed a vital charge.

certainly the top 500 havent been on here complaining

We have a bit

but most of us recognise the futility of posting. Mere words, after all, achieve nothing.

I have not read any reports or statements form betfair that they are going to give up the exchange model , this would not make sense when they are the major spearhead exchange company and have been so successful with it, there possible use of sports books as another source of income would be an added product to the company, not a replacement to the exchange, give them some respect, there not dodos,

I reckon if a simpler for the wider spectrum of gambler interface was available on site or another new site that was much like the more user friendly bookmakers betting pages, it would work quite well, the most obvious question then  would or could you then charge the premium charge to players that purely used the sports books if they make a constant profit as the appeal of betting at similar odds to a bookmaker and paying the premium charge would never survive the perceived image of unfairness.

on that basis alone I cant see sports pages being a safe addition to the main betfair site using conventional betfair customer accounts.

You have faith in them to get a sportsbook up and running??? They destroyed the forum with one of their 'upgrades' and have pissed 30 million into the LMAX black hole and are still struck by site-outages but you can see a seamless birth of a sportsbook???

tsk

their

they're

there

I have not read any reports or statements form betfair that they are going to give up the exchange model , this would not make sense when they are the major spearhead exchange company and have been so successful with it, there possible use of sports books as another source of income would be an added product to the company, not a replacement to the exchange, give them some respect, there not dodos,

From my perspective, it's a matter of ethics.  If you are so concerned about money draining from the system too quickly, then you should close the loopholes in the system which enable this.  Instead, you're more than happy to continue to allow punters to be fleeced so long as you get your cut.

Correct Mr Angry.

on the question of sports books and conventional bookmaking being introduced, imagine the possible set case scenarios.
(please note all below set case are postulated and bear no comparison to betfair activity currently.)

1.....A successful sportsbook user on betfair complaining that they had to pay the premium charge when the odds were similar to other bookmakers who wouldnt charge them a premium charge, even though they are betting against 125% over-rounds would frighten off any new sportsbook customers.

2....the facility to now allow regular winners over long periods the use of the site would then send a message that betfair bans winners and thus winners were not welcome, which goes against there current policy that winners are still welcome.

3....stock market consultants point out that betfair had become a traditional bookmaker thus forfeiting there unique position in sporting exchanges for a more competitive postion in the
saturated bookmakeing market would indicate a limited company growth profile and even maturity which would then slow down stock market interest.

so clearly there would be a massive conflict of interest if betfair did create sports books onsite.

@ bf fantasist:

may I be so bold as to ask whether you are a Premium Charge payer, please?

At first, I felt sure you were something to do with bf PR or advertising, but you told us you don't work for bf.

In case it matters, I myself am but a very small player on bf, but, somehow, I have just about managed to take out more than I put in.

I have no idea about PC myself, but my impression ( without knowing the full facts, of course) is that buzzer seems to have things about right.

I would not call it getting fleeced, a farmer who owns the filed that a sheep lives off and the sheep itself may do some fleecing, all betfair are doing is giving the top winners that purge the revenues a little trim. a little off here sir and a bit off the back and sides. ;-)

I would guess buzzer has a pretty good idea - he has been around a good while unlike betfair apologists - how many betfair people seed the forums on here I wonder
at least two have been spotted

Lol, so the forums are seeded by apologists?  If only it wasn't so everyone would agree

explain to buzzer will you that betfair have a base rate of only 5% which means they have to pay for everything out of a margin profit, thats not 5% of turnover by the way take out all the running costs, development of new products and services , promotions, advertising, sponserships, racing levys, wages, lawsuits, it equipment and installation, it upkeep , licensing etc etc etc, what they got left is tiny in comparison to the turnover.

bookmakers have costs too but are you ready, watch the penny drop carefully, they do it by manipulating the market directly at the trackside bookmakers to maintain a 128% overound, thats 28%
commission to put it another way.

bookmakers make over 5 times the commission effectively than betfair and ban all long term winners!

what would you rather have, just all bookmakers or exchanges with better prices and a charging system to plug the many millions that traders, botters, and the like drain from the coffers.

just tell me which is the better?

yes sudden appearances of new accounts with expert knowledge of betfair, their motives, etc etc   - tell me another one ha ha
I have mentioned the figure of two so far spotted - pathetic attempts at some sort of PR

admit it betfair have got it right, there a business, not a charity

I pay PC but am very small fry.  Betfair are trying their best to encourage me to move elsewhere.

this is good

we don't have to guess at the lack of insight behind the decision-making process - we can see it exposed here

it is precisely because it is not "little" that the new charge will fail to produce the expected result.

You think they have it right. I say you should watch what unfolds.

I love betfair. It really has been such a good experience for the last 5 years.I sincerely thank the original inventors. 5 percent 20 percent 40 percent or more  - even if it was 99 percent commish I would still stay with them. I think I am very astute and clever.
I am also good at putting my fingers in live electrical sockets, stepping in front of trains and walking the dog on live tank firing ranges. And I believe everything I am told on here  (Not)

i promise you i dont know anybody at betfair, anyway betfair are too sensible to allow there own staff to comment on the forums. I have run a business before and I do understand that you have to put in place measures that might not go down too well with customers, but it has to be done for the welfare of the company, you would do the same in there place, in fact i am amazed that they have maintained growth in the current economic climate, plenty of other businesses have gone belly up, and even the mighty u.s.a is having to do some quick major financial surgery to get there debt sorted out, you lot do go on and on about a small group of rich punters that dont pay tax, live the high life, all through betfair with betfairs blessing for 10 years or so and now have to pay a contribution back to the farm.

Spot on weatherman. The decision process being communicated to the forumites in the form of posters that understand that the company surely has costs.

And to no surprise, Mr. Bf_fanatic, like others in other threads, says that the company is not taking enough from
the turnover. Implying that the money belongs to them because it flows through the platform.

Of course if asked, Mr. Bf_fanatic will not answer how the company went from a small start-up to a million profit multinational with the 5% commission scheme (effectively less)

i bet there crying all the way to the bank

don't let's confuse the issue - it's a great money grab by betfair - even though they are in hard times but strangely the figures speak a different  language - and I guess it's more to do with bolstering share price than any 'business' decision for future growth.  But hey ho what do I know??

saint it came from growth, organic, the same growth that now costs 10s of millions to maintain along with everything else, betfairs happy the top 500 will still be happy, the staff at betfair that arent getting there bonus this year are managing to be happy, why cant everyone else be happy, or is that index linked to your commission rate from birth

when change happens get up, dust yourself off, adapt and survive, its not the end of the world and if it was it would not be that bad an ending would it

Oh dear.  How long have you worked at Hammersmith Embankment, bf_fananatic? 

And Mr. can you explain to us why before it didn't cost so much to maintain the whole lot and suddenly the cost has grown exponentially?

surprisingly, mr. bf_fanatic has only posted in threads that have to do with the premium charge and related (like the ring fencing) ...

when change happens get up, dust yourself off, adapt and survive

Exactly.

Glad you understand.

the caliber of plant has degenerated to weed...

in answer to a question asked earlier on, am i a payer of the premium charge, no i am not but I would love to be because it would mean I was making a very good living from betfair and giving  some of it in the form of the pc towards the company would increase my worth to the company and help to secure betfairs growth therefore my projected growth long term, there that explains it

there has been no change - just a hike in prices
a money grab
and unfortunately quite a few may well 'adapt' to other sites
having enjoyed my time on here I am sad to think this will happen because of some 'clever' accuntants rocking the boat too much

Envy is dangerous when it comes to making business decisions

a weed may be said to be quite economical and efficient in its sustainability, it maintains very good growth, is a great survivor to change and best of all it doesnt waste resources complaning, whats your excuse

if a weed loses 60% to a lawnmower or gets a complete trim it grows back, maybe the top 500 should make an observation

if you were a weed which garden would you prefer to live in, betfairs where you get a trim if you grow too much, or the bookmakers where you get showered in agent orange as soon as your spotted , tee hee

case closed lol

Dear Mr bf. I make approx £50/week, not what I would call "a very good living" and I pay PC

weeds are good at sporing lots of little weeds...

All this from a women who doesn't even understand the basics of commission, i.e. that premium charge payers pay less percentage of their gross profit.

Bf_fanatic, how long have you been using Betfair, and what commission rate are you on please?

poisoned prince, that does seem a low amount of profit, there will be ways to increase your profit margins and still pay your pc, what ever your doing right, do more of it and good luck ;-)

Not read so much cr@p in ages.

The Communist economic model shows us all we need to know.  The more an administrator extracts from a financial system and generally interferes with it, the less incentive there is participate. Hence less competition.

hi trev, to make light and fun of myself, my balance is 2p at the moment, and i cant remember where that came from lol, havent bet on here for ages, but on the other hand i have nearly finished an app that generates in self prrofed over thousands of races 500 points profit every week, i was knocked for six when i heard about the pc huke but i have give it some serious thought and some research into betfairs position in terms of its global position as a world leader in the sporting exchange industry, there floatation , the millions they have to pay out for many things and the reason behind the charge and I have come to the  conclusion the pc is a bitter pill to swallow but it makes sense, if and whn am ready to back and lay on here and if I achieve the highest pc charge then I will pay it glady because betfair would owe me nothing and I would be making a bomb out of them so I wouldnt have any reason to complain, its just a shame its 60% and not 50% as a 50/50 split would be much fairer as betfair will make more out of my efforts then I would, but I dont want to sound greedy in saying that, its all relative, if you want to read my story its in the "are all moneys ring fenced thread so far down, think i posted it on sunday night.

my main concern is being accepted on any betting site once i get firing up, so its all on a proverbial wing and a prayer for me

i would rather pay them 60% then use bookies and get shot lol, reckon ladbrokes would hire a hit man with my profit margins lol

Liquidity increasing? surely you cannot be serious!
P.C.
Slow pictures.
Site breaking down every few days.
Competition thats starting to look like a viable alternative.
Sorry fanantic,one way its going and its not up.

i have noticed increased liquidity on the greyhound on the greyhound racing today at betfair, 22k from 13k yesterday, only looked at 10 or so races, of course the full picture will probably be different, anyone else noticed anything?

my forecast of recent events would be that the traders the main winners on here are churning more, here and else where to raise there game and turnover, so there will be a knock back effect that traders at war with each other to grab the profits, there is alot more general activity on all exchanges, so thats the basis of this thread

Here's how I see it. Bettors who look to find value will if they get too successful be charged this new premium charge so say they think a horse should be a 1.8 chance and on here it's 2.0, that's a value pick being 5.55% better off. Now if they are charged at the highest rate of 60% commission then the profit you end up with will end up being the equal to betting on a 1.4 shot so now betting on the 1.8 chance has no long term chance of profit. Value bettors won't have a hope if they become too successful. Betfair take no risks but take the majority of pro bettors winnings. Pure greed.

I realise that Fanantico and thanks for answering,I personally think maybe if it was pc alone you may have some case,but different factors are now in the equation which weakens your argument.

and if betfair really need the money (which I think they do not) then there are many ways of getting it rather than this disasterous PR result for them
first 20 then 40 and possibly 60   
the bad publicity only damages the company and it could have been handled so much better

jtothev, that wont be the case, the premium charge has no effect at all on the prices, back or lay in any market other than any observed change in liquidity by changes in the now charge rate to top earners.

its only your net or gross lifetime profits over 250,000 that mean you get reduced profit after the charge is taken out, i presume the charge will be taken every week like the existing one, maybe someone knows if this is the case?

I know it doesn't affect odds but when they take away 60% of your profits that's what it'll look like.

Thanks for the reply, bf.

I'm a bit stunned to learn that you don't pay PC yet, but, judging by your huge knowledge of btfr, for one who seems to be so young, I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
I can see your concern that folk don't abandon btfr, as it looks like the only way you can fail is if btfr fails. This must be your major worry, I guess. It's probably the reason why so many on here seem to think you are some sort of btfr campaigner.

Btw, where you're going a little bit off is in the things you say about bookmakers - especially real, track bookmakers. I get the impression that real life racing has not been a big part of your personal rise to the top. Specifically, I cannot agree that bookmakers set whatever prices they like on course. To my eyes, the controlling factors comes from somewhere else. This isn't a good thing for racegoing punters , imo, but there ya go. I don't know as much about these Exchanges as your good self.

You're better off signing up to 20 bookmakers and spreading your money around thinly so that they won't end up blocking you. Yeah they have the overround but they actually risk their money unlike betfair which just matches up gamblers together and takes their profits for no risk to their bank account.

jtothev
No so appropriate for IR.

why

Wouldn't it be lovely if just one person ever came on here who knew exactly what it costs BF to run and expand the sports exchange and compare it to the the exact revenues BF gets from commissions from the alternative pricing structures 1) no PC 2) 20% PC 3) 60% PC. That might at least settle the pure greedy money grab by BF debate.
At the moment everybody seems to be posting from the perspective of their own tiny little gambling world. That is this is gonna kill me personally, ipso facto BF must be doing something wrong and greedy and is sure to come a cropper, or allthis is not really gonna hurt me, or knock me out of the game, and so what BF is doing is OK, though not necessarily liked, by me.
The only even remotely oriented big picture posters on here, who would appear to be pretty well into the info loop in some real theoretical and practical sense, can perhaps be counted on the fingers of one hand. I of course mean posters like Magician, Sandown, Bayes, Contrarian etc .
Pretty much all posts are being ruled by pure, unalduterated self interest.
In this respect,I declare my self interest to be that there is nowhere else for me to bet except on BF ( purple does not offer my marksets in any breadth and the bookies won't deal with me at all).

What markets are you involved in??

Only football.

Yes but what particular markets??

dashero
Rocket asked me this and I was a bit reluctant to reveal my exact concentration of interest.
Suffice it to say that it is certain of those that purple does not offer on many (if any) football matches.

You have a point with your earlier post, the lack of information from the towers is brutal and is muddying the already filthy waters of of betfairs public reputation..The lack of communication and clear concise answers means that they either know they can't answer the difficult questions honestly or they just don't give a **** about their customers concerns and feel they don't have to justify their actions..

dashero
The trouble could also be that all this type of financial info is also very valuable to and hard earned by the company, and would be extremely useful to any start up competition if disseminated freely and publicly.
They're perhaps caught between a rock and a hard place ?

FAFH, nopw that they are a listed company I think all their num,bers are made public, maybe not down to the smallest detail, but you could probably learn a lot by just reading their financial reports.

that maybe so, but why not communicate that message to punters, the PC has always been clouded in smoke and mirror tactics from BF..Both introductions have been handled poorly by the firm and because of that there is animosity and suspicion from customers towards BF which are only increased by the lack of concrete details justifying the charges.. How does it look when in 2008 BF introduce a charge saying it is needed to preserve the ecosystem and that 22.5% will suffice, adding that any suggestions of the charge increasing are risable..Then less than 3 years later BF announce that they are almost doubling and trebling this charge on certain accounts, not to mention the shifting of the goalposts on the original 2008 charge to catch more people in the net...

My point is if the charge was justifiable in 2008 then how did they get their calculations so wrong in charging 22.5%??

Their reasoning for introducing PC @ 20 % and now increasing it to 40 - 60 % has been nothing but corporate BS from day 1.

They say these winners drain the pool to fast and that they need more money from these winners in order to advertise more to get new (losing) customers to the site.

And this is what the CEO states in this years financial report :

Marketing and operational efficiency
We will continue to control our marketing and operations costs tightly as the business grows. Our unique product gives us a very loyal customer base with high retention rates. This allows us to spend a lower percentage of revenue on marketing compared to other online gaming operators, as we do not have to replace a high proportion of our customer base each year lost through churn

He also stated this, which I'm also pretty sure isn't compatible with the reasons for introducing and later increasing PC :

Customers
Total active customer numbers grew by 15% over the year, with the FIFA World Cup attracting a large number of new players. During the second half we concentrated on winning high-value customers through a more targeted and efficient marketing programme. We also realigned our customer retention and promotions teams to focus on this segment. Specifically, we undertook a targeted campaign for the Grand National in April 2011 focusing on acquiring high value customers. . As a result we acquired 35,000 fewer customers overall for the Grand National and Q4 customer numbers fell year-on-year. But this was offset by a significant increase in average revenue per customer as we had more high-value activity. . This adjustment to our customer approach will also help to enhance our future margin performance as we achieve higher lifetime payback on our marketing spend.
We achieved a better-than-expected cost per acquisition, reduced by 21% to £104. This cut the proportion of revenue spent on marketing to 24% – in line with historic levels and significantly below the prior year‟s 29%.

Perhaps as Rumsfield sort of said it's the things we know we don't know, or we don't know we know, those are zee problemas.
It certainly is a rat's nest of disinformation.

Rumsfeld would be betfair's kind of guy.

And George W. presumably ?

FAFH - I bought shares in Nintendo and Sharp (with quality research imo) just before the earthquake that crippled Japan.  Rumsfield would be laughing now lol!

*I should add a disclaimer in case that was seen as bad taste (but the truth) - I meant Rumsfeld would be laughing to be shown to be correct. I decided months ago though to give 25%+ of sale price to Japan charities when their value has recovered slightly (hopefully) that'll be when I sell them (or September whichever is earliest (spreadbet)).

jtothev, that wont be the case, the premium charge has no effect at all on the prices, back or lay in any market other than any observed change in liquidity by changes in the now charge rate to top earners.