that would be my reading subv. would be a bit more reassuring to have total access to the fund's investment decisions, but like I say, it's pretty low down my list of worries.

indeed FAFH... unfortunately in practice 'low risk' seemed to frequently mean 'hide behind the ratings agencies' (who were often way behind the game)

its also hot off the press, day old i think

I agree FAFH. But that is essentially exactly what I have already said

Btw fanatic, this thread is about ring fencing, not the PC.
It is a PC free zone.
Most important that.

P.S FAFH deposits are instant.

You only have to wait 3 days for the pleasure of receiving your money.

Jeez premium you really starting to scare me.
You do appear to have looked at all this in some very serious depth.
Just keep your balances to the minimum should perhaps be the motto of all.
Even if it means doing bothersome things like continually transferring monies both in and out, daily if necessary.

oh yeah, rocket - tbh, it's often not even a case of forgetting, just laziness. but, for some of the stuff I do, I need 10K and ideally more in there so there's no risk free way of operating.

just the way it is. so ultimately all I can do is be careful and accept the risk.

wish BF would take down the trap bet scum though. they're basically just thieves, imo. saw somebody blow 3K on a trap bet last night in the copa.

premium - my understanding is that if a contract makes no mention of VAT, then the price is deemed to include VAT

and i would think betfair can't retrospectively charge its customers what was deemed to be inclusive in the price it quoted us, and neither can betfair transfer its own liabilities to the client trust

of course, a proper legal opinion on this would be ideal

viva el presidente!
18 Jul 11 23:25
Joined:  10 Jun 06 | Topic/replies: 8,733 | Blogger: viva el presidente!'s blog
oh yeah, rocket - tbh, it's often not even a case of forgetting, just laziness. but, for some of the stuff I do, I need 10K and ideally more in there so there's no risk free way of operating.



If you're risking the same per trade or however you wish to define it then does it really matter if the rest of the funds behind it bar the stake are in Betfair or elsewhere? If it is your betting bank it is your betting bank regardless. ?

may i remind all customers who ever have moneys invested in any companies accounts or in the comapny itself that if a floated companies share price dips below its minimum trading price then it will automatically become delisted form the main stock market listing and then go on to whats nick named pink papers, a more more ricky listing, it is common advice that if a company falls this fate you should withdraw any funds form there company accounts as getting there pink papers is a prelude too bankrupcy.

if your all intelligent and honest i think you all know the writings on the wall for betfair, the pc hike is a pre-kick-back to what is to befall betfair, market consultants know it and perhaps most of you can sense it, and in the end we will all feel it.

The official Betfair line below.
There is no ring- fencing in the normal sense of the word just that customer funds are covered as long as RBS or other banks do not go bust.
No mention that the Trust can invest in a wide range of financial instruments including Betfair and we are none the wiser ("exists purely to hold client funds" is not true).
It is a peculiar trust deed in that the main "beneficiaries" do not receive any benefit in interest payments on their cash nor is any annual report provided to customers on what is happening to their cash.
It is uncertain of what effect the Gibraltar move has  as the Trust is written to apply in English law. So further complications in getting any money back through courts against the "separate" Group company which may or may not not now be a Gibraltar company.

"All customer funds are ring-fenced in the UK and provide the same level of protection as in Australia. Here are some further details:

· Betfair is required by Gambling Commission regulations to segregate operating funds from client funds and this is something Betfair has always done.

· The way in which we separate client funds is by putting in place an arrangement (the Trust) so that The Sporting Exchange (Clients) Limited holds client funds on trust for customers. Customers are entitled to a share in that Trust at all times, equal to their contribution to the Trust. The Trust deed describing this arrangement is on the site. Client funds are held with The Royal Bank of Scotland (which owns Natwest), one of the largest banks in the UK.

· The Sporting Exchange (Clients) Limited is a Group company that exists purely to hold client funds. The only payments it is authorised to make are withdrawal requests to customers and monthly payments of commission/rake to the relevant Betfair group companies.


· This arrangement means that not only can Betfair not use client funds to run the business, but in the case of a Betfair insolvency, creditors would have no claim over client funds because they are held by a separate group company which has nothing to do with the running of the betting business, the payment of invoices etc, etc.


· Because all funds are held on trust pursuant to a trust deed and all customers are beneficiaries of the trust, all customers are protected by the laws of equity. This provides additional security in the form of remedies that include the right to “trace” funds and take advantage of the laws of restitution. When no trust is involved funds are simply held pursuant to contract and if a company goes under a person has a contractual claim against the company (often not much use because creditors need to line up behind others who are owed funds). When a trust is involved and the laws of equity apply, a creditor (who is a beneficiary of the trust) is in a much stronger position because he can actually follow funds spent by a debtor to source (i.e. trace) and claw them back.


· So, if The Royal Bank of Scotland go under, customers will be able to trace their funds and have an improved chance of recovery AS WELL AS being able to get in line with other creditors of the bank. Short of having some form of security (mortgage/debenture etc) this is therefore the best possible protection we can give our customers above and beyond the ring fencing rule (i.e. that there is always enough money in our accounts on trust to pay all customers back at any time).

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries."

I really don't think we need to worry about the funds.`
Betfair was on a very high rating when it came to the market and has wrecked its share price through its short-sighted greed, which will likely increase its profits short term but is devaluing the quality
of earnings, hence the decline in the share price.
Maybe they'll come to their senses and reverse this superPC thing, which I personally think is against their own long-term interests.
But either way there is absolutely no risk to their solvency and our funds are completely safe.

interesting email cornubia. I wonder who has the right to demand to see the investment history of the trust?

this caught my eye:

"Short of having some form of security (mortgage/debenture etc) this is therefore the best possible protection we can give our customers above and beyond the ring fencing rule"

on the face of it that seems inaccurate to me, as greater explicit limits on the level of risk Trust investments are allowed to bear would surely offer greater protection.

bf fanatic
Aren't you a bit off topic in your posts on here ?.
To others
Isn't all this ring fencing debate a bit of a red herring.
Is BF any better or worse than any other major gambling site operating actively in the UK ?.
Don't they all hold customer balances in pretty much the same manner ?
I don't believe the basic honesty/integrity of BF's operations has ever been seriously called into question by either any independent analysts or even disgruntled ex customers or employees.
Or am I wrong on this basic opinion, yet once again ?.

Gee thanks getting better, I think.

well fafh, if you were in my boots you would have a different outlook on all the recent upheaval regarding the pc hike, I have a story to tell also but to cut a long story short

i am probably the owner of the most accurate and profitable greyhound racing application on this planet, been involved with racing software design since before the pc came into being and through a few decades.

here are the performance figures for my app

average points profit per greyhound meeting = 18-22(variable to track)

average back strike rate = 28%

average lay strike rate = 90%

average weekly points profit = 600 plus


i currently have prediction models for the top 13 greyhound tracks over 4 bend races.

do you honestly think I want to use the application on a site that wants too suck up my profits
and gain from my hard work just because they can?

my head and my heart tell me that to use my application on betfair under the current perverted ethos
on winning and funds manipulation is wrong and why should i add more liquidity to a site that then will repay me my taking my winnings, not theres from me.

when your skills fafh get as big as your mouth then i am sure everybody will take you seriously
but my only current concern is that i am struggling to take the betfair exchange as a good place to win anymore.

at least I am in a lucky position at the moment in that i havent used my application on here and attained 250,000 profits so perhaps I like many others will take the simple step that if another sites liquidity is 25% that of betfairs to win 2.5 factor more profit then its a no-brainer just where i am heading, and what of betfair minus the top bettors liquidity, well for one thing market accuracy will certainly drop so dont rely on prices as muxh as a guide, all you price junkies will
be thunb twidling more for less profits agains higher premium charge so betfair will become the excahge were only losers are welcome and expected.

Not disputing any of that fanatic.
Just saying it is just a bit off topic in relation to the thread heading that's all ?

yes you are right, thats true mate, am just so pissed at betfairs stance on winners, i have worked solid this last year to ready my application, then to find to my horror the premium charge has turned into frankenstein!

What bugs me the most is that winners were once encouraged to come to betfair, thats what made me give up my business and reprogram my appliction that i created 18 years ago, back then the pc was a very basic beast, 4 colours and certainly not up to much, so i used an amiga 500, then 600 , then 1200 with ramcard to develop software to predict greyhound results, back then in 1993 there was no software available of any use for greyhound racing so i decided to design my own, after a couple of hard years and a program that was 30,000 lines long after 3 major version changes i came to a variant that actually made a repeatable profit, the downside was it took 12 minutes to type in 1 race
this was impractical so i had to shelve it and pursue a career that led me into cctv installtion.

cctv was real money but i always knew what i really wanted to do, then several years ago i learned about betfair and it crossed my mind that hey, profit margins would soar on a site like that, then i got into designing a pc version of the original application but i have programmed it in a totally radical way, its totally wrote in excel. yes i have pushed excel 2003 my favourite version of excel because of favourable memory size to the point that i can examine at any one time over a million peices of race data for a track at once, no mean feat, in fact a programmer friend of mine once made a joke that it couldnt be done and foolish, but i knew exel was built for the job and i accomplished the task.

anyway dont wish to bore you but fafh what do you think about betfairs future role in betting exchange, do you think they want to milk the winners prior too morphing into a bookmaker so that they can  drain them before the transistion as a sort of 3-4 year strategy starting from 2008 or do you think there are finacial weaknesses in there stock market position that have forced it, or do you think its a gathering of funds prior to a tax battle, it could be all three, i do know that they have made there staff fore go any bonuses this year and top staff have been pushed out or left, its all very dramatic and any of the last three reasons for the premium charge hike are very worrying for any user of the site as it will affect everyone in some way, your opinion would be most welcome.