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09 Jul 11
07:12
Joined:
Date Joined:
12 Mar 07
There is apparently a small core of gamblers ( said to be less than 500) who have conservatively aggregated more than 125 million pounds in net profits ( but probably much, much higher) over the years since the inception of BF.
Now all that has effectively come directly out of the pocket of net losing gamblers ( aka mugs).
Now this small core of gamblers, plus a few others getting close to being in that group, want us all to join them in a mass migration to another exchange from the 18th of this month onwards.
Why?
Because BF has decided to super tax their future profits ( note not retroactively tax their "in the bank" withdrawn past profits). This super tax to be used by BF for the benefit of everybody in the exchange, both current and future, by being ploughed back into technical improvements and into expanding the customer base.
These shrewdies want us mugs to join them in going over to another exchange which doesn't have this super tax, but has the same sort of unsustainable early day commission structure that BF had ( even lower in fact).
Why ? So that they ( the shrewdies) can repeat the whole exercise over again, that is make 100's of millions at our expense, before they are eventually caught out and stopped again, which will happen inevitably.
And so they ask us, very politely of course, to voluntarily lay on our backs and be raped and pillaged all over again.
Come on fellow mugs, wake up and smell the coffee.
Now all that has effectively come directly out of the pocket of net losing gamblers ( aka mugs).
Now this small core of gamblers, plus a few others getting close to being in that group, want us all to join them in a mass migration to another exchange from the 18th of this month onwards.
Why?
Because BF has decided to super tax their future profits ( note not retroactively tax their "in the bank" withdrawn past profits). This super tax to be used by BF for the benefit of everybody in the exchange, both current and future, by being ploughed back into technical improvements and into expanding the customer base.
These shrewdies want us mugs to join them in going over to another exchange which doesn't have this super tax, but has the same sort of unsustainable early day commission structure that BF had ( even lower in fact).
Why ? So that they ( the shrewdies) can repeat the whole exercise over again, that is make 100's of millions at our expense, before they are eventually caught out and stopped again, which will happen inevitably.
And so they ask us, very politely of course, to voluntarily lay on our backs and be raped and pillaged all over again.
Come on fellow mugs, wake up and smell the coffee.
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Yes, Jimmy and pay PC @ 20%. Will pay at 60% if I ever get to 250K, but am way off that atm.
If that was the case Johnny, then why isn't it the case on the purple place too and on the smaller markets on here?
There is only so much money to go round and if some of that money moves to the purple place or elsewhere then holes will appear on here.
If that was the case Johnny, then why isn't it the case on the purple place too and on the smaller markets on here?
There is only so much money to go round and if some of that money moves to the purple place or elsewhere then holes will appear on here.
I can understand why people are upset about this increase but surely you should be grateful that you have the opportunity to win in the first place (given to you by Betfair).
I was winning before betfair and I've won more on the HS than I have on betfair over the last 4 years, but yes betfair was a wonderful concept and I'm very pleased that it's around.
My fear is those who now run it have lost their way and will eventually kill the golden goose for everyone.
My fear is those who now run it have lost their way and will eventually kill the golden goose for everyone.
jimmy69 Joined: 11 Apr 01
Replies: 13853 09 Jul 11 12:33
I can understand why people are upset about this increase but surely you should be grateful that you have the opportunity to win in the first place (given to you by Betfair).
It's harder to win at gambling now than it was pre-Betfair. It's made the lifestyle easier, but the actual winning is tougher than ever before thanks to more efficient pricing and generally raised understanding of the business.
Replies: 13853 09 Jul 11 12:33
I can understand why people are upset about this increase but surely you should be grateful that you have the opportunity to win in the first place (given to you by Betfair).
It's harder to win at gambling now than it was pre-Betfair. It's made the lifestyle easier, but the actual winning is tougher than ever before thanks to more efficient pricing and generally raised understanding of the business.
Well in all fairness, I suggest that a lot of the so called 480 (or is it up to 520 by now?) are market takers.
In fact, I would love to see a makeup of the so called accounts betting activities, in regards to profits/rates/turnover etc, even a combined. Surely if they can call 480, they can combine, no privacy leak there.
Would also love the real story behind this. Maybe this is a do this or BF is dead within the year type of deal. I mean if there are these super algorithm bots out there that have been playing the markets all this time, then it stands to reason that their betting is increasing daily, pulling more and more out of the exchange every day to the point where there was no other option. Obviously, they would not make this public.
Without knowing the details, most of it is speculation. Problem is, I know of a few that are leaving the site that certainly aren't big fish, just people plodding along, making a decent wage, certainly not super punters or anything, although in saying that, I suspect they aren't market makers either except on the way back down/up...
I also know that it is quite possible that long term losing punters can easily get caught out through variance and leave as soon as PC hits them.
And I know that with the way I bet, once I qualify, a good run can easily put me in the poor house due to PC charges even though I will be at around 35% generated charges.
In fact, I would love to see a makeup of the so called accounts betting activities, in regards to profits/rates/turnover etc, even a combined. Surely if they can call 480, they can combine, no privacy leak there.
Would also love the real story behind this. Maybe this is a do this or BF is dead within the year type of deal. I mean if there are these super algorithm bots out there that have been playing the markets all this time, then it stands to reason that their betting is increasing daily, pulling more and more out of the exchange every day to the point where there was no other option. Obviously, they would not make this public.
Without knowing the details, most of it is speculation. Problem is, I know of a few that are leaving the site that certainly aren't big fish, just people plodding along, making a decent wage, certainly not super punters or anything, although in saying that, I suspect they aren't market makers either except on the way back down/up...
I also know that it is quite possible that long term losing punters can easily get caught out through variance and leave as soon as PC hits them.
And I know that with the way I bet, once I qualify, a good run can easily put me in the poor house due to PC charges even though I will be at around 35% generated charges.
Five Leaves,
Looks like a 'chicken or egg' situation will develop -
- Will the layers stay here,(or others move in), because this is where the 'mugs' are?
Or
- Will the 'mugs' turn purple because that's where the layers are?
I know which I believe will happen.
But I,and many others I'm sure, will just go wherever the best price is.
Looks like a 'chicken or egg' situation will develop -
- Will the layers stay here,(or others move in), because this is where the 'mugs' are?
Or
- Will the 'mugs' turn purple because that's where the layers are?
I know which I believe will happen.
But I,and many others I'm sure, will just go wherever the best price is.
jimmy69 09 Jul 11 12:33
I can understand why people are upset about this increase but surely you should be grateful that you have the opportunity to win in the first place (given to you by Betfair).
Grateful to an extent for the original product. But betfair are moving so far away from that with this and other changes. Far from winners being welcome, it seems clear trying to force certain winners out. Like hell am I going to pay 50% charges with no get out, considering potential variance it's just not worth my while. My hand will be forced to exit this account.....
I can understand why people are upset about this increase but surely you should be grateful that you have the opportunity to win in the first place (given to you by Betfair).
Grateful to an extent for the original product. But betfair are moving so far away from that with this and other changes. Far from winners being welcome, it seems clear trying to force certain winners out. Like hell am I going to pay 50% charges with no get out, considering potential variance it's just not worth my while. My hand will be forced to exit this account.....
I'm still not sure that a lot of people are getting the basic essence of what I'm saying.
Perhaps a farming type analogy might work better.
If you sow a field of crops and reinvest a large portion of the monies received in planting new crops, then it makes long term economic sense.
But if you sow and just spend most of the monies received outside your farm, that is not reinvesting, then it makes no long term economic sense. And it will only last as long as you have any unsown fields left.
Let's assume the body of mug punters at any one time represents a field of crops waiting to be sown.
Let's say they represent a certain amount in monies to be obtained in sowing them.
Well if at least 60 % of those monies are reinvested in replanting, then a new healthy crop of crops/mugs will come up to be resown in the future. However if only 10% in renivested, it won't come up, long term at least.
The future crops will still always get sown ( that is the mugs will still lose) but at least the life cycle of the farm will be longer.
So what benefit is this to the mugs ?. They're going to get sown whatever the scenario.
I agree on that. It does however benefit mugs who have aspirations of morphing from mugs into farmers.
I'm more talking about the long term healthiness of the farm being of import and concern to all farmers, both current and potential.
Nothing is gained by letting field after field get sown without sufficient reinvestment in planting new fields.
Perhaps a farming type analogy might work better.
If you sow a field of crops and reinvest a large portion of the monies received in planting new crops, then it makes long term economic sense.
But if you sow and just spend most of the monies received outside your farm, that is not reinvesting, then it makes no long term economic sense. And it will only last as long as you have any unsown fields left.
Let's assume the body of mug punters at any one time represents a field of crops waiting to be sown.
Let's say they represent a certain amount in monies to be obtained in sowing them.
Well if at least 60 % of those monies are reinvested in replanting, then a new healthy crop of crops/mugs will come up to be resown in the future. However if only 10% in renivested, it won't come up, long term at least.
The future crops will still always get sown ( that is the mugs will still lose) but at least the life cycle of the farm will be longer.
So what benefit is this to the mugs ?. They're going to get sown whatever the scenario.
I agree on that. It does however benefit mugs who have aspirations of morphing from mugs into farmers.
I'm more talking about the long term healthiness of the farm being of import and concern to all farmers, both current and potential.
Nothing is gained by letting field after field get sown without sufficient reinvestment in planting new fields.
You get more dosh by not growing crops these days thanks to subsidies
Who's going to susidise BF if I may ask such an impertinent question ?
I'll check in a bit later.
I'm just gonna pop out on my tractor.
I'm just gonna pop out on my tractor.
Is that really true Lori? Surely with all the information out there I would have though it is far easier to win nowadays.
Possibly the term mugs isn't inspiring anybody to hang around on exchanges at all to be honest. At least they can go to the bookies and they act like their best friends...
What's best for Joe public - betting with a sportbook pricing model with overrounds of probably 110% with a 5% commission level - or betting in a 100% market with a 5% reduction.
At what exchange would the bank of recreational punter last longest?
At what exchange would the bank of recreational punter last longest?
That was a joke Froggy.
Who do you think sows these fields?
They're sown by many PC payers. Yes ofc they take their profit, but then reinvest again and again and again.
Are betfair going to plant the seeds?
They'd then be no different to ladcrooks or Billies and winning accounts will be closed down.
Unlike the fixed odds merchants a betting exchange can't survive without winners.
As they're the ones who plant the seeds.
Who do you think sows these fields?
They're sown by many PC payers. Yes ofc they take their profit, but then reinvest again and again and again.
Are betfair going to plant the seeds?
They'd then be no different to ladcrooks or Billies and winning accounts will be closed down.
Unlike the fixed odds merchants a betting exchange can't survive without winners.
As they're the ones who plant the seeds.
When Bruno fought Tyson, you could get 1/3 Tyson and 9/1 Bruno jimmy!
That's just an example of the kind of thing that you just no longer see at all - for obvious reasons.
The lack of information aided the smart players, not the bookies.
That's just an example of the kind of thing that you just no longer see at all - for obvious reasons.
The lack of information aided the smart players, not the bookies.
The fields are also sown by many other non PC players too...
I beg to differ on this one Lori though I understand where you are coming from.
I can see the other point of view for sure. I'm not sure it helped ME I guess 
True Jimmy, but there will be fewer with the new 40% PC charge.
Jimmy, I can't help but think if your style of betting resulted in you paying a 50% charge to betfair because you won too efficiently (without any unfair advantages) then you'd have a completely different view on it.
Probably Kaiser but I'm not too worried about it at the moment.
Duncan Disorderli has just recently made his final pronouncement on this whole PC matter on a thread created by him, and I am now going to do the same.
This whole debate from day one has been appallingly bad.
Totally dominated by pure self-interest and small mindedness.
With a few notable exceptions, there would seem to be hardly one big picture thinker amongst you all.
I am going to stay with BF.
I currently look forward everyday to turning on tne BF site and getting down to gambling business. I find it exciting and intellectually stimulating beyond description.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I trust BF to treat me fairly and equitably in the future, as they have always done in the past.
I believe wholeheartedly that BF offers me the only real opportunity to be successful in my gambling operations long term.
All other alternatives are unacceptable in that they are either essentially unprepared or unwilling to accept the risks I pose to them in being either an actual or potential winner.
Other competitive exchange type operations hold no appeal as they will only ever be clones of BF, and most probably poor ones at that.
So I'm staying and I look forward to pitting my wits against any and all of you in the future, who hopefully decide to stay here alongside me.
This whole debate from day one has been appallingly bad.
Totally dominated by pure self-interest and small mindedness.
With a few notable exceptions, there would seem to be hardly one big picture thinker amongst you all.
I am going to stay with BF.
I currently look forward everyday to turning on tne BF site and getting down to gambling business. I find it exciting and intellectually stimulating beyond description.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I trust BF to treat me fairly and equitably in the future, as they have always done in the past.
I believe wholeheartedly that BF offers me the only real opportunity to be successful in my gambling operations long term.
All other alternatives are unacceptable in that they are either essentially unprepared or unwilling to accept the risks I pose to them in being either an actual or potential winner.
Other competitive exchange type operations hold no appeal as they will only ever be clones of BF, and most probably poor ones at that.
So I'm staying and I look forward to pitting my wits against any and all of you in the future, who hopefully decide to stay here alongside me.
So I'm staying and I look forward to pitting my wits against any and all of you in the future
....and the betfair hoover bot.......
....and the betfair hoover bot.......
I'm sure you'll go where ever you can make money froggy.
atm that's betfair.
If that changes I'm sure you'll jump ship as some already have.
atm that's betfair.
If that changes I'm sure you'll jump ship as some already have.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
Absolute rubbish. Look forward to not seeing your repetitive wordy babel 24/7 on this subject.
Absolute rubbish. Look forward to not seeing your repetitive wordy babel 24/7 on this subject.
1. There are no absolute "mugs" - it is a relative term used by those who think they are better. There are degrees of merit amongst players and as with any sport whether you win or not depends upon the class in which you play.
2. When Wimbledon was boycotted by pros there was still a winner.
3. BF benefit most when there is very little difference in merit between players because the commission grinds out all the money in play - eventually. Surprisingly, for players who seek entertainment, this state of affairs will also make there bank go further.
4. The Times reported this week on the conference relating to High Frequency trading and how it almost certainly led to a mini market crash a few years ago.
5. Ironically, within the same report there was the story of a hedgie who switched on an algorithm by mistake in so doing bankrupting his firm within 16 seconds. It took much longer for the owners to discover the fact
2. When Wimbledon was boycotted by pros there was still a winner.
3. BF benefit most when there is very little difference in merit between players because the commission grinds out all the money in play - eventually. Surprisingly, for players who seek entertainment, this state of affairs will also make there bank go further.
4. The Times reported this week on the conference relating to High Frequency trading and how it almost certainly led to a mini market crash a few years ago.
5. Ironically, within the same report there was the story of a hedgie who switched on an algorithm by mistake in so doing bankrupting his firm within 16 seconds. It took much longer for the owners to discover the fact
Mc Chicken, your chatname sums you up.
Dumbed down and tasteless.
Sorry, but you asked for it.
Dumbed down and tasteless.
Sorry, but you asked for it.
Yes, my chatname is shocking, admittedly.
If I thought there was any worth whatsoever in engaging you in jousts of eloquent repetitive b*llshit then I would have done.
I can scarcely believe you are going to cease posting in support of these (and whatever else betfair bring in) changes as it'd likely leave a 5 hour void in your day.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I simply can't attempt to reason with someone who (apparently) honestly believes this to be true. I think you've just made the decision to be as directly contradictory to the majority of the posters here as possible.
If I thought there was any worth whatsoever in engaging you in jousts of eloquent repetitive b*llshit then I would have done.
I can scarcely believe you are going to cease posting in support of these (and whatever else betfair bring in) changes as it'd likely leave a 5 hour void in your day.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I simply can't attempt to reason with someone who (apparently) honestly believes this to be true. I think you've just made the decision to be as directly contradictory to the majority of the posters here as possible.
Yes, my chatname is shocking, admittedly.
If I thought there was any worth whatsoever in engaging you in jousts of eloquent repetitive b*llshit then I would have done.
I can scarcely believe you are going to cease posting in betfair's defense of these changes as it'd likely leave a 5 hour void in your day.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I simply can't attempt to reason with someone who (apparently) honestly believes this to be true.
If I thought there was any worth whatsoever in engaging you in jousts of eloquent repetitive b*llshit then I would have done.
I can scarcely believe you are going to cease posting in betfair's defense of these changes as it'd likely leave a 5 hour void in your day.
I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.
I simply can't attempt to reason with someone who (apparently) honestly believes this to be true.
OK mac fair enough.
You threw mud at me, and I threw it back.
But just once each eh please.
You score, I score.
A draw.
No lasting hard feelings.
Business as usual.
Bit like the pollies at Westminster.
In closing, I do intend to stop posting ad nauseam in the manner I have been doing.
I can assure you that I do believe with full conviction that what I have been saying is the truth of the whole matter.
But I can accept that others do not share this conviction.
That's life.
You threw mud at me, and I threw it back.
But just once each eh please.
You score, I score.
A draw.
No lasting hard feelings.
Business as usual.
Bit like the pollies at Westminster.
In closing, I do intend to stop posting ad nauseam in the manner I have been doing.
I can assure you that I do believe with full conviction that what I have been saying is the truth of the whole matter.
But I can accept that others do not share this conviction.
That's life.
And you're totally right about the huge void that will be created in my day.
Any good suggestions, apart from getting a job ?
Any good suggestions, apart from getting a job ?
JTG, as to whether any business will give small punters a 'fighting chance' of winning on the year based on skill, the amnswer is, 'not of they can help it'.
Of course they welcome the occasional lucky winner, and all the better if this winner attributes his success to skill and good selections.
Everyone (bar perhaps people w/ some kind of maths or trading background) goes through the experience of getting close to being a winner, formulating good strategies/selection methods then getting closed down by the books. By then you've picked up ways to be highly confident of winning, and you start making damn sure you do, to get a return on yr time and investment.
Perhaps you will go through this process, or be going through it right now. But neither type of punter (the systematic winner or the casual player) occupies the high moral ground and can rightly be pious, or assume that everything shd be set up for his benefit.
Of course they welcome the occasional lucky winner, and all the better if this winner attributes his success to skill and good selections.
Everyone (bar perhaps people w/ some kind of maths or trading background) goes through the experience of getting close to being a winner, formulating good strategies/selection methods then getting closed down by the books. By then you've picked up ways to be highly confident of winning, and you start making damn sure you do, to get a return on yr time and investment.
Perhaps you will go through this process, or be going through it right now. But neither type of punter (the systematic winner or the casual player) occupies the high moral ground and can rightly be pious, or assume that everything shd be set up for his benefit.
I realise you do English horses Askari and so it doesn't apply to you as much, but at least three big firms will cater to small long term winners and at least one will cater to big winners in sports such as soccer and American sports.
As for FATH's doom-laden talk about 'sucking the money out of the exchange', so long as these super botted-up infallible winners (whom I doubt are as infallible as talk can make them out) can offer the best price, there will be people to match them, given the existence of price-sensitive casual punters.
What is at issue is rather the terms of a profit share between bf and perhaps some 100 entities/individuals, w/ smaller players getting caught in the crossfire (and being of debatable value to the company anyway).
What proportion of a more-or-less guaranteed profit shd bf allow these people to get away with? 7% 21.5% 60% For styles of play that are dependent on data availability and an exchange, the q. is academic as bf can dictate their terms.
Other people will find other ways of getting on.
What is at issue is rather the terms of a profit share between bf and perhaps some 100 entities/individuals, w/ smaller players getting caught in the crossfire (and being of debatable value to the company anyway).
What proportion of a more-or-less guaranteed profit shd bf allow these people to get away with? 7% 21.5% 60% For styles of play that are dependent on data availability and an exchange, the q. is academic as bf can dictate their terms.
Other people will find other ways of getting on.
There's no such problem as to sucking money out of the exchange. It's not coming from a non-replenishable source.
Lori, then bf cannot seek to dominate those markets in terms of price.
On the horses, prices (normally between 8.00am and 9.15am) are often better on the High St too, and sometimes eye-openingly better (33% this morning on the big race hcap fav.), but you have to cultivate relationships w/ shop staff and losing account-holders to get on.
I do feel that anyone w/ any kind of sport-specific nous or knowledge, that is, virtually anyone whose success is not down to their ability to have automated a repetitive winning strategy, is going to consider moving elsewhere.
On the horses, prices (normally between 8.00am and 9.15am) are often better on the High St too, and sometimes eye-openingly better (33% this morning on the big race hcap fav.), but you have to cultivate relationships w/ shop staff and losing account-holders to get on.
I do feel that anyone w/ any kind of sport-specific nous or knowledge, that is, virtually anyone whose success is not down to their ability to have automated a repetitive winning strategy, is going to consider moving elsewhere.
Lori, I agree about replenishment, that was my point.
It might be that bf's money replenishes more slowly than that of the High St, in that people coming here to an unfamiliar environment and losing can easily put it down to exchanges being 'beyond them'.
It might be that bf's money replenishes more slowly than that of the High St, in that people coming here to an unfamiliar environment and losing can easily put it down to exchanges being 'beyond them'.
I've mentioned elsewhere but I forget which of the many threads now, that I don't believe Betfair can compete with the high street for the mug money, and I don't believe they can compete with the internet for the price-sensitive money.
That leaves the exchange/in running money as their only hope.
Given that WSEX failed to seed an exchange when they tried, and they have much much more experience in online betting than Betfair and tried it over fewer markets, I can't believe that Betfair will succeed at seeding their own markets either.
Mansion also failed, though that was never a shock.
I'd love to know where Betfair think they're driving this vehicle at the moment, because it's becoming increasingly difficult to spot the successful strategy in their plans.
That leaves the exchange/in running money as their only hope.
Given that WSEX failed to seed an exchange when they tried, and they have much much more experience in online betting than Betfair and tried it over fewer markets, I can't believe that Betfair will succeed at seeding their own markets either.
Mansion also failed, though that was never a shock.
I'd love to know where Betfair think they're driving this vehicle at the moment, because it's becoming increasingly difficult to spot the successful strategy in their plans.
Not saying that this any way helps the big picture stuff in the long term for BF, Lori.
But is not a lot of the potential/current seeding done by 3rd parties anyway ?
probably a topic for another forum but if you have the market place and are already attracting business customers effectively it gives you a very different starting place to any previously /currently comparable companies.
(context of post for reference - I think they are getting it badly wrong...but)
But is not a lot of the potential/current seeding done by 3rd parties anyway ?
probably a topic for another forum but if you have the market place and are already attracting business customers effectively it gives you a very different starting place to any previously /currently comparable companies.
(context of post for reference - I think they are getting it badly wrong...but)
Froggy, does it not get exhausting having your tongue up betfair's arse almost 24/7?
For your own sake, come up for some fresh air occasionally!
For your own sake, come up for some fresh air occasionally!
Mc Chicken
I suppose you mean that if I'm now going to stop flogging dead horses on here, I should now perhaps start stuffing them at home in my new found spare time ?
I suppose you mean that if I'm now going to stop flogging dead horses on here, I should now perhaps start stuffing them at home in my new found spare time ?
Turtle
Do you even have a tongue left ?
What with all the acid posts you seem to make recently.
Do you even have a tongue left ?
What with all the acid posts you seem to make recently.
To which the 2nd child in this p;ayground spat says " Well he started it ".
But I agree.
Too childish for words.
But I agree.
Too childish for words.
'--playground-- " or though "--payground--" sort of still works.
In the first line of the fourth paragraph in the the original post on this thread you talk about us mugs I thought you said you were a professional gambler FAFH?
Never said that no moves.
I gamble profitably for sure but never professionally, if you mean by that that I rely on it as my primary source of income.
I identify with the mugs in the sense that I'm not one of the dedicated, intense, driven gamblers on here, for whom gambling is, it seems quite often, literally life or death, income wise.
I gamble profitably for sure but never professionally, if you mean by that that I rely on it as my primary source of income.
I identify with the mugs in the sense that I'm not one of the dedicated, intense, driven gamblers on here, for whom gambling is, it seems quite often, literally life or death, income wise.
I asked on another on another thread do you make a profit or lose? The reply you gave was.........A fckin fortune.
You do seem to be highly keen on giving gambling advice to all and sundrie on the exchange, giving vent to the suggestion your the wise old sage of Betfair, this is a tiny bit odd for a person who happily describes himself as mug punter. your atitude seem openly hostile to the most successfull operators on here they seem positively alien to you.
You do seem to be highly keen on giving gambling advice to all and sundrie on the exchange, giving vent to the suggestion your the wise old sage of Betfair, this is a tiny bit odd for a person who happily describes himself as mug punter. your atitude seem openly hostile to the most successfull operators on here they seem positively alien to you.
If you think that nomoves then so be it.
Btw the fckn fortune reply was just being facetious.
I don't think i have ever given or even tried to give gambling advice to anyone on here.
All I'm doing, or trying to do at least, is express my personal opinion on BF matters as I see them.
No more, no less.
In this PC case, I do not want to see any sort of boycott of or mass migration away from the exchange.
Does that mean I'm hostile to the most successful operators on here ?
Not at all. I would very much like them to stay if they contribute their fair share of revenue contributions, as such is to be decided by BF.
Others say that BF is not impartial enough to be the judge and jury on this.
Maybe they are correct, but I've not really seen any hard evidence to support this sopposition.
Anyway I did say a post or so ago that I was not going to post ad nauseam on all this. But I did feel the need to set you clear on my position in specific response to your last post.
Please just take it or leave it, as everybody is getting pretty sick and tired of hearing all this over and over again from me.
Btw the fckn fortune reply was just being facetious.
I don't think i have ever given or even tried to give gambling advice to anyone on here.
All I'm doing, or trying to do at least, is express my personal opinion on BF matters as I see them.
No more, no less.
In this PC case, I do not want to see any sort of boycott of or mass migration away from the exchange.
Does that mean I'm hostile to the most successful operators on here ?
Not at all. I would very much like them to stay if they contribute their fair share of revenue contributions, as such is to be decided by BF.
Others say that BF is not impartial enough to be the judge and jury on this.
Maybe they are correct, but I've not really seen any hard evidence to support this sopposition.
Anyway I did say a post or so ago that I was not going to post ad nauseam on all this. But I did feel the need to set you clear on my position in specific response to your last post.
Please just take it or leave it, as everybody is getting pretty sick and tired of hearing all this over and over again from me.
Also you're taking me away from my new hobby of taxidermy.
How are you going to sit there and claim it to be their fair share of revenue though?
Take 2 punters, one generates 4.9%, the other 5.1%.. One pays 60%, the other pays 50%...
How can anybody argue that to be fair? Sure they might catch who they are targetting, but it seems the blinkers are certainly on and the big picture is in their peripheral.
Take 2 punters, one generates 4.9%, the other 5.1%.. One pays 60%, the other pays 50%...
How can anybody argue that to be fair? Sure they might catch who they are targetting, but it seems the blinkers are certainly on and the big picture is in their peripheral.
FAFH, nomoves has a point. Calling yourself a mug punter when you can't get on with any of the bookmakers and making 8 %(I think you said this yourself?) ROI here, hardly qualifies as being a mug.
A bit phatetic of you trying to ridicule PC payers wanting others to emigrate, when you imply mugs are better off staying here and being fleeced by the likes of you with an exceptionally high ROI.
A bit phatetic of you trying to ridicule PC payers wanting others to emigrate, when you imply mugs are better off staying here and being fleeced by the likes of you with an exceptionally high ROI.
frog
i totally agree with the opening post .
just as greedy as betfair imo
i totally agree with the opening post .
just as greedy as betfair imo
Eddie
I'm not saying mugs will necessarily be better off on here immediately if the shrewdies move or don't move, I'm just saying that whilst they might lose the same amount of money in the short term whatever happens, the shrewdies will however keep more of it in their own pockets if it happens on any alternative exchange rather than in BF in the future.
Furthermore, if the mugs do lose it on here and BF super taxes the shrewdies for a larger cut of their winnings and, most importantly, uses those tax revenues to grow and improve the exchange, then at least the mugs MIGHT have some chance down the line to improve their game and actually start winning some money off the shrewdies.
However if the shrewdies just bleed the exchange dry and leave BF an empty vessel and then go over to another exchange, and the mugs follow them there, and the same end result occurs ( which it will eventually as the low across the board flat commission structure is flawed), then eventually the whole exchange concept ( that is betting and laying and not getting banned ) might eventually die in totality.
Then in fact not only do the mugs lose but also any aspiring potential shrewdies, as the current bunch of shrewdies will have collapsed the whole edifice.
I'm not saying mugs will necessarily be better off on here immediately if the shrewdies move or don't move, I'm just saying that whilst they might lose the same amount of money in the short term whatever happens, the shrewdies will however keep more of it in their own pockets if it happens on any alternative exchange rather than in BF in the future.
Furthermore, if the mugs do lose it on here and BF super taxes the shrewdies for a larger cut of their winnings and, most importantly, uses those tax revenues to grow and improve the exchange, then at least the mugs MIGHT have some chance down the line to improve their game and actually start winning some money off the shrewdies.
However if the shrewdies just bleed the exchange dry and leave BF an empty vessel and then go over to another exchange, and the mugs follow them there, and the same end result occurs ( which it will eventually as the low across the board flat commission structure is flawed), then eventually the whole exchange concept ( that is betting and laying and not getting banned ) might eventually die in totality.
Then in fact not only do the mugs lose but also any aspiring potential shrewdies, as the current bunch of shrewdies will have collapsed the whole edifice.
Fck me here I am posting all the same old.
Why can't I stop taking the bait?.
Maybe, just maybe, I feel that it is vitally important for my point, or perhaps some more intelligently argued version of it, to get across to people.
And Eddie you're right in saying that I actually am not one of the mugs losing monies hand over fist to the shrewdies.
So go figure.
Why can't I stop taking the bait?.
Maybe, just maybe, I feel that it is vitally important for my point, or perhaps some more intelligently argued version of it, to get across to people.
And Eddie you're right in saying that I actually am not one of the mugs losing monies hand over fist to the shrewdies.
So go figure.
"Fck me here I am posting all the same old.
Why can't I stop taking the bait?."
Because you are addicted to the forum. You need to get yourself down to forum posters anonymous and stop posting immediately. And watch out for things like sunlight (or moonlight maybe at the moment) and fresh air when you step outside.
Why can't I stop taking the bait?."
Because you are addicted to the forum. You need to get yourself down to forum posters anonymous and stop posting immediately. And watch out for things like sunlight (or moonlight maybe at the moment) and fresh air when you step outside.
FAFH.
You notion that without supertaxing big winners that the exchange might 'die' is pretty much laughable, and completely and utterly baseless.
It is betfair attempting to maximise profits at a time when their share price is plummeting and their projected targets aren't being met. That is their right, but to make out like they are doing it for some common good is ridiculous.
It may or may not make better business sense for them, time will tell. But the idea that the shrewdies will bleed the exchange dry until there are no mugs for them to feed on is based on what, exactly (bookmakers have hardly died out)?
You notion that without supertaxing big winners that the exchange might 'die' is pretty much laughable, and completely and utterly baseless.
It is betfair attempting to maximise profits at a time when their share price is plummeting and their projected targets aren't being met. That is their right, but to make out like they are doing it for some common good is ridiculous.
It may or may not make better business sense for them, time will tell. But the idea that the shrewdies will bleed the exchange dry until there are no mugs for them to feed on is based on what, exactly (bookmakers have hardly died out)?
However if the shrewdies just bleed the exchange dry and leave BF an empty vessel and then go over to another exchange, and the mugs follow them there, and the same end result occurs ( which it will eventually as the low across the board flat commission structure is flawed), then eventually the whole exchange concept ( that is betting and laying and not getting banned ) might eventually die in totality.
One last time, justify this idea logically........ it's just empty rhetoric as far as I can see.
One last time, justify this idea logically........ it's just empty rhetoric as far as I can see.
He can't justify it one jot, just typical pro betfair cobblers that keeps getting spouted, presumably on the basis that if it gets said enough some people will start to believe it.
The laugh is all this "shrewdies bleeding the exchange dry" type comment is now exactly the action BF want to take via this increased charge.
Rather than customers getting the money BF get it. The difference being that customers will put a good portion back into the pot. BF's take out never comes back.
Rather than customers getting the money BF get it. The difference being that customers will put a good portion back into the pot. BF's take out never comes back.
If I reply again in depth, I am an unbelievable forum addict ( per UA's last comment).
If I don't reply in depth, I am an unbelievable alarmist ( per Mc C 's last comment).
Can't win it seems.
So I will retire from the fray, and just read and watch any and all developments as they occur.
If I'm right or wrong, what's it matter ?.
I really have no influence either on other punters' actions or on BF's.
It's all just personal opinion.
Never has been, nor never will be, proven fact one way or the other, till all the dust settles.
If I don't reply in depth, I am an unbelievable alarmist ( per Mc C 's last comment).
Can't win it seems.
So I will retire from the fray, and just read and watch any and all developments as they occur.
If I'm right or wrong, what's it matter ?.
I really have no influence either on other punters' actions or on BF's.
It's all just personal opinion.
Never has been, nor never will be, proven fact one way or the other, till all the dust settles.
This super tax to be used by BF for the benefit of everybody in the exchange, both current and future, by being ploughed back into technical improvements and into expanding the customer base.
This is just ridiculous. The money is being used to increase profits. It is not being 'plowed back'.
Betfair have had hundreds of millions (£) of cash reserves for years. They have not found a use for this money. They are now using a portion of this to buy back shares. Therefore funds raised from PC are not required for development. QED
This is just ridiculous. The money is being used to increase profits. It is not being 'plowed back'.
Betfair have had hundreds of millions (£) of cash reserves for years. They have not found a use for this money. They are now using a portion of this to buy back shares. Therefore funds raised from PC are not required for development. QED
FAFH, you are entitled to your own opinions of course, but please refrain from using supporting arguments that are demonstrably false 
If Betfair feel they can make more money by increasing charges, it is their right to do so. Simple as that. The justification you give is completely invalid though.
If Betfair feel they can make more money by increasing charges, it is their right to do so. Simple as that. The justification you give is completely invalid though.
Maybe we have just one monumental battle of greed between two parties over the transference of the collective funds of the mugs.
On the one hand we have the BF mgt. and shareholders, who own and control the platform which facilitates any such transfer.
On the other hand we have the core of winning punters, who own and control the gambling skills required to effect any such transfer.
The end result might be that they just fight each other to the death , leaving the collective funds of the mugs with nowhere to go except to the HS bookies.
The HS bookies must in fact be watching with glee and astonishment at their extreme potential good luck.
On the one hand we have the BF mgt. and shareholders, who own and control the platform which facilitates any such transfer.
On the other hand we have the core of winning punters, who own and control the gambling skills required to effect any such transfer.
The end result might be that they just fight each other to the death , leaving the collective funds of the mugs with nowhere to go except to the HS bookies.
The HS bookies must in fact be watching with glee and astonishment at their extreme potential good luck.
Come out of retirement so soon ?.
Maybe the all too common disease of professional sportsmen and women doing the same thing is rubbing off on me, by virtue of my excessive sports betting ?.
Maybe the all too common disease of professional sportsmen and women doing the same thing is rubbing off on me, by virtue of my excessive sports betting ?.
Investor
Do you or I or anybody on this forum really know anything at all about the real financing needs/requirements of BF to run, improve, expand the exchange ?
Aren't we all just pontificating on what we think we might know, not on what we actually do know ?
We can read publicly available balance sheets for sure which, as we all know from hard experience, don't really tell you anything at all.
Do you or I or anybody on this forum really know anything at all about the real financing needs/requirements of BF to run, improve, expand the exchange ?
Aren't we all just pontificating on what we think we might know, not on what we actually do know ?
We can read publicly available balance sheets for sure which, as we all know from hard experience, don't really tell you anything at all.
Certainly I did GOM.
And maybe my last response to Investor was thus poorly worded.
There are numerous technical and strategic corporate finance reasons if and why and when corporates buy back some of their own shares.
And we don't have anywhere enough public info available to us to assess this situation factually or correctly.
And after all we're just a bunch of pro and amateur punters debating on here, not corporate finance specialists.
Who's is to say how the buyback was even funded ?.
Who's to say it even came out of free cash reserves ?.
What are their projected capital inflows?
What are their projected cash inflows ?. etc etc etc
Now maybe Investor, or you, or at least somebody on this forum is privy to all this detail.
Then, if they are, maybe they could put an end to all this conjecture, by posting up all the exact correct relevant info.
Maybe, maybe ,maybe.
I am not saying my personal thoughts are any more correct than anybody else's on here.
But also I'm not conceding they aren't without more substance being posted on the counterarguments.
And I'm staying loyal to BF and so perhaps I'm not even required to prove anything at all.
I'm not the one calling BF mgt a pack of liars without incontrovertible proof.
And maybe my last response to Investor was thus poorly worded.
There are numerous technical and strategic corporate finance reasons if and why and when corporates buy back some of their own shares.
And we don't have anywhere enough public info available to us to assess this situation factually or correctly.
And after all we're just a bunch of pro and amateur punters debating on here, not corporate finance specialists.
Who's is to say how the buyback was even funded ?.
Who's to say it even came out of free cash reserves ?.
What are their projected capital inflows?
What are their projected cash inflows ?. etc etc etc
Now maybe Investor, or you, or at least somebody on this forum is privy to all this detail.
Then, if they are, maybe they could put an end to all this conjecture, by posting up all the exact correct relevant info.
Maybe, maybe ,maybe.
I am not saying my personal thoughts are any more correct than anybody else's on here.
But also I'm not conceding they aren't without more substance being posted on the counterarguments.
And I'm staying loyal to BF and so perhaps I'm not even required to prove anything at all.
I'm not the one calling BF mgt a pack of liars without incontrovertible proof.
FAFH
You are wasting your intelligence here, your energy would be better spent helping poor people away from your laptop.
You are wasting your intelligence here, your energy would be better spent helping poor people away from your laptop.
By: Cramped_With_A_Nun
Date Joined: 07 Jul 11
Add contact | Send message When: 10 Jul 11 15:07 Joined: Date Joined: 07 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 216 | Blogger: Cramped_With_A_Nun's blog
FAFH
You are wasting your intelligence here, your energy would be better spent helping poor people away from your laptop.
CWAN
offering such advice to others means... you're leaving!! unless you are a hypocrite....
bye bye
Date Joined: 07 Jul 11
Add contact | Send message When: 10 Jul 11 15:07 Joined: Date Joined: 07 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 216 | Blogger: Cramped_With_A_Nun's blog
FAFH
You are wasting your intelligence here, your energy would be better spent helping poor people away from your laptop.
CWAN
offering such advice to others means... you're leaving!! unless you are a hypocrite....
bye bye
I've done my bit around the world, now I'm helping the poor souls here who are struggling to pay there bills and wont go tot he job centre sponging off tax payers money as they are too proud. Fair play.
CWAN
You know maybe you have come up with a very good example of what would be bad for BF and ultimately for all punters.
Say someone was using his/her BF skills to largely fund external charity ventures.
Whilst that would be good for the charities and thus the general society, it would perhaps be very bad for BF, particularly if most of the shrewdies were doing it.
That is take as much as you possibly can out of BF on a net basis, giving as little as you can back to BF for its own long term operating needs.
That is thy need is greater than others'.
Just perhaps replace charities with own families ( to be fair to the majority of winners on here) and with Ferraris ( to be equally honest with a minority of winners on here) and you see the potential problem with an ever growing, rapacious band of shrewdies.
You know maybe you have come up with a very good example of what would be bad for BF and ultimately for all punters.
Say someone was using his/her BF skills to largely fund external charity ventures.
Whilst that would be good for the charities and thus the general society, it would perhaps be very bad for BF, particularly if most of the shrewdies were doing it.
That is take as much as you possibly can out of BF on a net basis, giving as little as you can back to BF for its own long term operating needs.
That is thy need is greater than others'.
Just perhaps replace charities with own families ( to be fair to the majority of winners on here) and with Ferraris ( to be equally honest with a minority of winners on here) and you see the potential problem with an ever growing, rapacious band of shrewdies.
You either have no shame or complete confidence that nobody else knows who you are.
Btw Rocket I'm into using all my spare cash resources for doggie rescue homes.
And you ?
And you ?
But of course I don't need gambling income to do that, so I suppose you could call me some sort of hypocrite on here in that case.
Froggy
I've helped out people in all 4 corners of the world, from the favela's of South America to lost lands of Bangladesh's never ending receding coast line, now, I'm here helping people on betfair to earn some extra money, the big players won't listen when I say FULL BANK- FREE MONEY, the smaller players will and then profit from my tips, these smaller players are just getting by supporting their families - I tell them not to thank me - I'm here to help
But not everyone can win I hear you say - the seethers and haters will ignore my tips and those are the losers = betfair will carry on.
I've helped out people in all 4 corners of the world, from the favela's of South America to lost lands of Bangladesh's never ending receding coast line, now, I'm here helping people on betfair to earn some extra money, the big players won't listen when I say FULL BANK- FREE MONEY, the smaller players will and then profit from my tips, these smaller players are just getting by supporting their families - I tell them not to thank me - I'm here to help
But not everyone can win I hear you say - the seethers and haters will ignore my tips and those are the losers = betfair will carry on.
At the end of one of my usual heated debating sessions on here, which generally end in various people hurling choice epithets at me, I most often just look down at my faithful 17 yr old mutt sleeping at the foot of my chair. I pick him up, look into his eyes, he obviously loves me, he licks my nose, and all is well with the world again.
Totally mentally recharged to plunge back into the GB forum again.
Are you batman to my robin, or perhaps the other way round ?
Either way what wonderful human beings we both are, don't you agree ?
Perfect in all senses.
Totally mentally recharged to plunge back into the GB forum again.
Are you batman to my robin, or perhaps the other way round ?
Either way what wonderful human beings we both are, don't you agree ?
Perfect in all senses.
Do you practice talking nonsense to the dog so that you have it perfectly honed for when you come on here 
My best listener in fact turtle. No doubt about it all.
Never ever even thinks of answering back.
Never ever even thinks of answering back.
Hmm. I may have to get one myself.
Although it would have to be a cat. Much more independent minded
Although it would have to be a cat. Much more independent minded
What do they say in ploitical circles ?
If you want a friend, get a dog.
Btw virtuous and good hearted and kind to animals though I might sound, I have to confess that I virtually do nothing else socially useful and admirable.
Just swim, drink, gamble and lie in the sun ( oh and post on the GB forum ad nauseam).
If you want a friend, get a dog.
Btw virtuous and good hearted and kind to animals though I might sound, I have to confess that I virtually do nothing else socially useful and admirable.
Just swim, drink, gamble and lie in the sun ( oh and post on the GB forum ad nauseam).
Cat
I personally think you should have used the chatname Garfield.
One of my very favourite cartoon characters.
I personally think you should have used the chatname Garfield.
One of my very favourite cartoon characters.
I mean that as a compliment btw, which I'm sure you got.
Id like to lock fafh in a room with Mike Strutter for 2 mins, no offence its just that i thyink he might get through to you, he is a lawyer you know. . . . . .
Bridgeboy
I'm afraid you'e going to have to explain to me who exactly Mike Strutter is.
I'm afraid you'e going to have to explain to me who exactly Mike Strutter is.
Just looked it up.
Sounds like it would be dangerous fun.
Worth getting a DVD or two to prepare myself appropriately ?
Sounds like it would be dangerous fun.
Worth getting a DVD or two to prepare myself appropriately ?
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