I'm still not sure that a lot of people are getting the basic essence of what I'm saying.
Perhaps a farming type analogy might work better.
If you sow a field of crops and reinvest a large portion of the monies received in planting new crops, then it makes long term economic sense.
But if you sow and just spend most of the monies received outside your farm, that is not reinvesting, then it makes no long term economic sense. And it will only last as long as you have any unsown fields left.
Let's assume the body of mug punters at any one time represents a field of crops waiting to be sown.
Let's say they represent a certain amount in monies to be obtained in sowing them.
Well if at least 60 % of those monies are reinvested in replanting, then a new healthy crop of  crops/mugs will come up to be resown in the future. However if only 10% in renivested, it won't come up, long term at least.
The future crops will still always get sown ( that is the mugs will still lose) but at least the life cycle of the farm will be longer.
So what benefit is this to the mugs ?. They're going to get sown whatever the scenario.
I agree on that. It does however benefit mugs who have aspirations of morphing from mugs into farmers.
I'm more talking about the long term healthiness of the farm being of import and concern to all farmers, both current and potential.
Nothing is gained by letting field after field get sown without sufficient reinvestment in planting new fields.

Who's going to susidise BF if I may ask such an impertinent question ?

Is that really true Lori? Surely with all the information out there I would have though it is far easier to win nowadays.

What's best for Joe public - betting with a sportbook pricing model with overrounds of probably 110% with a 5% commission level - or betting in a 100% market with a 5% reduction. 

At what exchange would the bank of recreational punter last longest?

When Bruno fought Tyson, you could get 1/3 Tyson and 9/1 Bruno jimmy!

That's just an example of the kind of thing that you just no longer see at all - for obvious reasons.

The lack of information aided the smart players, not the bookies.

I beg to differ on this one Lori though I understand where you are coming from.

True Jimmy, but there will be fewer with the new 40% PC charge.

Probably Kaiser but I'm not too worried about it at the moment.

So I'm staying and I look forward to pitting my wits against any and all of you in the future

....and the betfair hoover bot.......

I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.

Absolute rubbish. Look forward to not seeing your repetitive wordy babel 24/7 on this subject.

Mc Chicken, your chatname sums you up.
Dumbed down and tasteless.
Sorry, but you asked for it.

Yes, my chatname is shocking, admittedly.

If I thought there was any worth whatsoever in engaging you in jousts of eloquent repetitive b*llshit then I would have done.

I can scarcely believe you are going to cease posting in betfair's defense of these changes as it'd likely leave a 5 hour void in your day.

I understand and accept the commissions I have to pay, both now and in the future, as an absolute necessity to the general well being of the site.

I simply can't attempt to reason with someone who (apparently) honestly believes this to be true.

And you're totally right about the huge void that will be created in my day.
Any good suggestions, apart from getting a job ?

JTG, as to whether any business will give small punters a 'fighting chance' of winning on the year based on skill, the amnswer is, 'not of they can help it'.

Of course they welcome the occasional lucky winner, and all the better if this winner attributes his success to skill and good selections.

Everyone (bar perhaps people w/ some kind of maths or trading background) goes through the experience of getting close to being a winner, formulating good strategies/selection methods then getting closed down by the books. By then you've picked up ways to be highly confident of winning, and you start making damn sure you do, to get a return on yr time and investment.

Perhaps you will go through this process, or be going through it right now. But neither type of punter (the systematic winner or the casual player) occupies the high moral ground and can rightly be pious, or assume that everything shd be set up for his benefit.

As for FATH's doom-laden talk about 'sucking the money out of the exchange', so long as these super botted-up infallible winners (whom I doubt are as infallible as talk can make them out) can offer the best price, there will be people to match them, given the existence of price-sensitive casual punters.

What is at issue is rather the terms of a profit share between bf and perhaps some 100 entities/individuals, w/ smaller players getting caught in the crossfire (and being of debatable value to the company anyway).

What proportion of a more-or-less guaranteed profit shd bf allow these people to get away with? 7% 21.5% 60% For styles of play that are dependent on data availability and an exchange, the q. is academic as bf can dictate their terms.

Other people will find other ways of getting on.

Lori, then bf cannot seek to dominate those markets in terms of price.

On the horses, prices (normally between 8.00am and 9.15am) are often better on the High St too, and sometimes eye-openingly better (33% this morning on the big race hcap fav.), but you have to cultivate relationships w/ shop staff and losing account-holders to get on.

I do feel that anyone w/ any kind of sport-specific nous or knowledge, that is, virtually anyone whose success is not down to their ability to have automated a repetitive winning strategy, is going to consider moving elsewhere.

I've mentioned elsewhere but I forget which of the many threads now, that I don't believe Betfair can compete with the high street for the mug money, and I don't believe they can compete with the internet for the price-sensitive money.

That leaves the exchange/in running money as their only hope.

Given that WSEX failed to seed an exchange when they tried, and they have much much more experience in online betting than Betfair and tried it over fewer markets, I can't believe that Betfair will succeed at seeding their own markets either.
Mansion also failed, though that was never a shock.

I'd love to know where Betfair think they're driving this vehicle at the moment, because it's becoming increasingly difficult to spot the successful strategy in their plans.

Not saying that this any way helps the big picture stuff in the long term for BF, Lori.
But is not a lot of the potential/current seeding done by 3rd parties anyway ?

probably a topic for another forum but if you have the market place and are already attracting business customers effectively it gives you a very different starting place to any previously /currently comparable companies.

(context of post for reference - I think they are getting it badly wrong...but)

Mc Chicken
I suppose you mean that if I'm now going to stop flogging dead horses on here, I should now perhaps start stuffing them at home in my new found spare time ?

come on folks now, play it nice     [;)]