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This is possibly a better forum for this than Chit-chat.
Much of the complaining about the increases to the premium charge seems mis-placed, to me.
I was at Worcester racecourse yesterday and was taken on a small tour of the grandstand and shown the 3 Boxes which can be hired for the day. All 3 were populated by 'Traders' with the livest of live feeds, and BF or BDaq on computers in front of them - presumably with the latest of Bots and one-click facilities making them able to nick everybody else's money as soon as there was a faller or anything else happened they would see about 6 seconds before the rest of the world. One would assume that this takes place at every racecourse.
A massive majority of those of us who use BF will never get close to paying the premium charge, much less the increased amount.
What is wrong however is that BF is keeping the money.
People who win these vast sums are winning the money from the rest of us, not from BF.
Betfair SHOULD be providing incentives and prizes, etc for those of us who REALLY pay the charges to those who are utilising their advantage (usually time-based) to win the amounts they're winning.
Betfair SHOULD stop the use of Bots, (Sod the liquidity, if the market doesn't support proper trading then drop the market)
Betfair SHOULD discourage cheating instead of embracing it and gathering extra income from it. If this kind of 'Trading' took place in the stock exchange, those 'trading' would be imprisoned! (ie, how does this differ from insider dealing?)
Betfair SHOULD create a level playing field, so that those using the exchange are all within the spirit of the thing.
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%.
Betfair however, are being less than straight when they claim the money is needed to cover their extra costs. This is almost certainly BS.
Betfair makes money on every trade and doesn't need to do anything else except to Be Fair.
Much of the complaining about the increases to the premium charge seems mis-placed, to me.
I was at Worcester racecourse yesterday and was taken on a small tour of the grandstand and shown the 3 Boxes which can be hired for the day. All 3 were populated by 'Traders' with the livest of live feeds, and BF or BDaq on computers in front of them - presumably with the latest of Bots and one-click facilities making them able to nick everybody else's money as soon as there was a faller or anything else happened they would see about 6 seconds before the rest of the world. One would assume that this takes place at every racecourse.
A massive majority of those of us who use BF will never get close to paying the premium charge, much less the increased amount.
What is wrong however is that BF is keeping the money.
People who win these vast sums are winning the money from the rest of us, not from BF.
Betfair SHOULD be providing incentives and prizes, etc for those of us who REALLY pay the charges to those who are utilising their advantage (usually time-based) to win the amounts they're winning.
Betfair SHOULD stop the use of Bots, (Sod the liquidity, if the market doesn't support proper trading then drop the market)
Betfair SHOULD discourage cheating instead of embracing it and gathering extra income from it. If this kind of 'Trading' took place in the stock exchange, those 'trading' would be imprisoned! (ie, how does this differ from insider dealing?)
Betfair SHOULD create a level playing field, so that those using the exchange are all within the spirit of the thing.
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%.
Betfair however, are being less than straight when they claim the money is needed to cover their extra costs. This is almost certainly BS.
Betfair makes money on every trade and doesn't need to do anything else except to Be Fair.
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It's a fair post imo. A while back I suggested betfair should allow anyone to bet ir without a bet placement delay on the condition that a large part of their winnings would be shared out among those on the losing end of their bets. The logic being the course players would have to take it up (or be at a disadvantage with those course players who did) but it wouldn't make their advantage that much greater. In a sense betfair have just decided to not bother giving them the additional advantage, take most of their winnings off them and distribute nothing to those they mugged.
It seems to me betfair have decided that in cheatfair the site's reached the limits of its evolution.
It seems to me betfair have decided that in cheatfair the site's reached the limits of its evolution.
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%.
You really think everyone that pays has some kind of unfair advantage?
You really think everyone that pays has some kind of unfair advantage?
Betfair SHOULD be providing incentives and prizes, etc for those of us who REALLY pay the charges to those who are utilising their advantage (usually time-based) to win the amounts they're winning.
They kind of do that now with sign up and cash back offers, but imo they shouldn't need to do anything like this at all. They should get their expenses down to a minimum by reducing their huge staff, reducing salaries to management as this company could almost run by itself if only you had a good IT-staff and strip the site for all time consuming and non profit stuff and get back to basic. Profits would rocket.
Betfair SHOULD stop the use of Bots, (Sod the liquidity, if the market doesn't support proper trading then drop the market)
I'm not particulary fond of bot users myself, but I'm not sure I agree on banning them just because I don't use or like them.
[i]Betfair SHOULD discourage cheating instead of embracing it and gathering extra income from it. If this kind of 'Trading' took place in the stock exchange, those 'trading' would be imprisoned! (ie, how does this differ from insider dealing?)[/i]
This isn't insider trading as the information is out in the public. It's more like the guys (traders/investors) showing up when companies are releasing their numbers, just so they can be a few seconds or minutes ahead of those who don't come there.
Betfair SHOULD create a level playing field, so that those using the exchange are all within the spirit of the thing.
I agree on this if it was possible, but can you please tell us how this can be done ?
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%.
This is even more BS than some of the things Betfair says.
They kind of do that now with sign up and cash back offers, but imo they shouldn't need to do anything like this at all. They should get their expenses down to a minimum by reducing their huge staff, reducing salaries to management as this company could almost run by itself if only you had a good IT-staff and strip the site for all time consuming and non profit stuff and get back to basic. Profits would rocket.
Betfair SHOULD stop the use of Bots, (Sod the liquidity, if the market doesn't support proper trading then drop the market)
I'm not particulary fond of bot users myself, but I'm not sure I agree on banning them just because I don't use or like them.
[i]Betfair SHOULD discourage cheating instead of embracing it and gathering extra income from it. If this kind of 'Trading' took place in the stock exchange, those 'trading' would be imprisoned! (ie, how does this differ from insider dealing?)[/i]
This isn't insider trading as the information is out in the public. It's more like the guys (traders/investors) showing up when companies are releasing their numbers, just so they can be a few seconds or minutes ahead of those who don't come there.
Betfair SHOULD create a level playing field, so that those using the exchange are all within the spirit of the thing.
I agree on this if it was possible, but can you please tell us how this can be done ?
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%.
This is even more BS than some of the things Betfair says.
As for those paying the extra Premium Charge - tough, you're only winning that much because you're not playing fair, I think you should pay 95%
One of the great myths. I could tell from reading your post that you hadn't been here long.
One of the great myths. I could tell from reading your post that you hadn't been here long.
They should get their expenses down to a minimum by reducing their huge staff, reducing salaries to management as this company could almost run by itself if only you had a good IT-staff and strip the site for all time consuming and non profit stuff and get back to basic. Profits would rocket.
i agree 100% with Eddie ont that.
In the unlikely event that I'd ever been bright enough to invent a money-tree whereby I got people to bet against each other and pay me a guaranteed percentage of their profit on every transaction, and thank me for the privilege, i'd consider it a pretty damn good days's work and and be content to leave it at that.
i agree 100% with Eddie ont that.
In the unlikely event that I'd ever been bright enough to invent a money-tree whereby I got people to bet against each other and pay me a guaranteed percentage of their profit on every transaction, and thank me for the privilege, i'd consider it a pretty damn good days's work and and be content to leave it at that.
I do firmly believe that many of the people paying the increased PC will be those who are taking advantage of prior/instant/unfair knowledge, yes.
As for Bots, I don't like or use them, you're right. If there were such a thing available in any other place of betting they would be disallowed (eg Backgammon sites) and if people going into bookies tried to place a bet on the only horse left in say a 3 horse race, because the other 2 runners fell at the 1st, the bet would be voided - Yet on here, such an advantage is seen (by some) as "business" or "sensible betting".
Don't assume this forum name means I haven't been here long. I've been using BF regularly for nearly 7 years.
SF
As for Bots, I don't like or use them, you're right. If there were such a thing available in any other place of betting they would be disallowed (eg Backgammon sites) and if people going into bookies tried to place a bet on the only horse left in say a 3 horse race, because the other 2 runners fell at the 1st, the bet would be voided - Yet on here, such an advantage is seen (by some) as "business" or "sensible betting".
Don't assume this forum name means I haven't been here long. I've been using BF regularly for nearly 7 years.
SF
prior/instant/unfair knowledge
sweetfa, when the pc payers leave, will you be happy betting against betfair with 10x prior/instant/unfair knowledge?
sweetfa, when the pc payers leave, will you be happy betting against betfair with 10x prior/instant/unfair knowledge?
I'm not entirely sure I understand the question. However, I'll be happy to place bets and to lay selections based on what I think will happen rather than on what already has - but I was unaware of.
Why should discouraging existing traders on course (for example) make this profiteering worse?
Why should discouraging existing traders on course (for example) make this profiteering worse?
Don't assume this forum name means I haven't been here long. I've been using BF regularly for nearly 7 years.
That's even more worrying.
That's even more worrying.
not really - just a second account - I'm a very average punter.
I have an opinion though.
I have an opinion though.
sweetfa do you think other players are doing anything illegal,if so i suggest you inform the police,my god some go to the venue are they cheating or useing a bit of brain,why do you not go to the venue pay the exs and have a little edge.
Yeah hes saying that you are here for 7 years and you are still unable to understand for whats really going on we are talking about...
sweetfa
betfair is changing from person to person betting, to person vs betfair (bookie)betting. the prior/instant/unfair knowledge stuff that you complain about will now the sole domain of betfair. instead of other punters/traders hoovering up your bet it will be betfair.
betfair is changing from person to person betting, to person vs betfair (bookie)betting. the prior/instant/unfair knowledge stuff that you complain about will now the sole domain of betfair. instead of other punters/traders hoovering up your bet it will be betfair.
I am succesful middle player and I am not cheating - I AM NOT USING BOTS, I AM NOT MANYPULATING MARKETS BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE LIQUIDITY. I THINK - AND I TRADE. I am stying finance and this here will be my preparation for the real markets. BUT I AM NOT CHEATING I AM NOT A COURTSIDER. I AM JUST BETTER THAN YOU ARE? WHY SHOULD BETFAIR CHARGE ME?
I've been in the betting game for many years.
I've met plenty of liars, and there are VERY many liars on BF. What I have seldom, if ever, met is someone who consistantly wins by using form picks and by studying. Yes they may win occasionally, or be about level. But, what they don't do is win £250,000 or more without either inside information or an unfair advantage.
I'm not saying what goes on is illegal, but it IS wrong. The various 'supposed' massive winners, with their 'supposed' millions (or close to it) in profit in just a few years, have MY money, and the money of other genuine punters who don't like to be regarded as stupid just because they haven't won.
To balance things though, Betfair should not be keeping this money either, nor should they be hoovering it up themselves - The exchange should merely be a place to put money on opposing viewpoints as it was set up to, and meant to, be.
I'm not saying I have the answer. All I am saying is that there aren't as many massive winners as there claim to be, and of those many are cheating (and that IS what people using time advantage on course, among others) are doing.
I've met plenty of liars, and there are VERY many liars on BF. What I have seldom, if ever, met is someone who consistantly wins by using form picks and by studying. Yes they may win occasionally, or be about level. But, what they don't do is win £250,000 or more without either inside information or an unfair advantage.
I'm not saying what goes on is illegal, but it IS wrong. The various 'supposed' massive winners, with their 'supposed' millions (or close to it) in profit in just a few years, have MY money, and the money of other genuine punters who don't like to be regarded as stupid just because they haven't won.
To balance things though, Betfair should not be keeping this money either, nor should they be hoovering it up themselves - The exchange should merely be a place to put money on opposing viewpoints as it was set up to, and meant to, be.
I'm not saying I have the answer. All I am saying is that there aren't as many massive winners as there claim to be, and of those many are cheating (and that IS what people using time advantage on course, among others) are doing.
SweetFa, wdn't these people just play the fool and tell you lots of hard luck stories?
There is also the variant you don't consider of people w/ a winning compiler i.e. they are not spending their time studying on a race-by-race basis but generating and then refining a winning formula?
Do you think there is no one who has won 250k through analysing the markets and implementing a winning strategy?
There is also the variant you don't consider of people w/ a winning compiler i.e. they are not spending their time studying on a race-by-race basis but generating and then refining a winning formula?
Do you think there is no one who has won 250k through analysing the markets and implementing a winning strategy?
I'm sure there are the odd one or two, askari1.
Indeed I know someone here who has done what you suggest. Not for £250K yet, but he wins consistently and fairly.
There are more people who win the huge consistent amounts though, through unfair means, and in this regard Betfair are culpable. Not only through encouraging or facilitating the 'unlevel' playing field, but possibly through utilising it themselves (Or so I've heard).
Indeed I know someone here who has done what you suggest. Not for £250K yet, but he wins consistently and fairly.
There are more people who win the huge consistent amounts though, through unfair means, and in this regard Betfair are culpable. Not only through encouraging or facilitating the 'unlevel' playing field, but possibly through utilising it themselves (Or so I've heard).
SweetFA, I wd also prefer some form of transaction pricing that made a distinction between the way in which people win.
But it's hard to see how it cd be designed to sideline people who win in pre-race markets corruptly.
But it's hard to see how it cd be designed to sideline people who win in pre-race markets corruptly.
SweetFa
02 Jul 11 17:21
I'm sure there are the odd one or two, askari1.
Indeed I know someone here who has done what you suggest. Not for £250K yet, but he wins consistently and fairly.
So you know a guy who consistently wins lots of money in what you call a fair way, but you still wont believe there are many others capable of doing it
02 Jul 11 17:21
I'm sure there are the odd one or two, askari1.
Indeed I know someone here who has done what you suggest. Not for £250K yet, but he wins consistently and fairly.
So you know a guy who consistently wins lots of money in what you call a fair way, but you still wont believe there are many others capable of doing it
Eddie
The PC is flawed, I think all must agree on that by now.
But the principle of trying to get the " big" winners to stop creaming huge profits out of the pool of betting funds at BF at comparatively little cost to themseves is still valid.
It's how to do it fairly and equitably that is, or should be, the question.
The PC is flawed, I think all must agree on that by now.
But the principle of trying to get the " big" winners to stop creaming huge profits out of the pool of betting funds at BF at comparatively little cost to themseves is still valid.
It's how to do it fairly and equitably that is, or should be, the question.
But the principle of trying to get the " big" winners to stop creaming huge profits out of the pool of betting funds at BF at comparatively little cost to themseves is still valid
....but it's ok for betfair to now do the same thing?? yes or no fafh?
....but it's ok for betfair to now do the same thing?? yes or no fafh?
At comparatively little cost !!!!!
If someone who has been on here a long time and say made 35 k a year before commission.
He may have paid 12 k in commission during a year leaving him with a net profit of 23 k.
Now Betfair want another 2 - 9 k from him leaving him with a net profit of 14 - 21 k.
Betfair is now imposing a tax on many successful customers that in most cases exceeds government income tax and even you have to admit that it's more expensive running a country rather than Betfair ?
If someone who has been on here a long time and say made 35 k a year before commission.
He may have paid 12 k in commission during a year leaving him with a net profit of 23 k.
Now Betfair want another 2 - 9 k from him leaving him with a net profit of 14 - 21 k.
Betfair is now imposing a tax on many successful customers that in most cases exceeds government income tax and even you have to admit that it's more expensive running a country rather than Betfair ?
Eddie
I would agree that someone paying the levels of commission you state would not appear to be a fair and reasonable target for BF.
I was thinking more along the lines of those making 100s of thousands a year and paying less than 5% of GP in charges.
I would agree that someone paying the levels of commission you state would not appear to be a fair and reasonable target for BF.
I was thinking more along the lines of those making 100s of thousands a year and paying less than 5% of GP in charges.
Without having access to that information, I think it's pretty safe to say that very very few people(if any) make that kind of money and pay less than 5 % in commission.
And why discuss the charge based on how maybe one or two people use the site and are affected by it.
Betfair want at least 40 % from everyone's gross profit, that make enough on here to possibly make it their living.
And why discuss the charge based on how maybe one or two people use the site and are affected by it.
Betfair want at least 40 % from everyone's gross profit, that make enough on here to possibly make it their living.
Well we've already had one, MrCelebrity, posting up on here.
But I would think that those that are doing this would not be shouting it from the rooftops.
I agree once again that I think the net is far too encompassing and inequitable.
But I still agree with the basic principle behind it, regarding the very " big" low commission payers.
But I would think that those that are doing this would not be shouting it from the rooftops.
I agree once again that I think the net is far too encompassing and inequitable.
But I still agree with the basic principle behind it, regarding the very " big" low commission payers.
Well, I have my doubts about him. He may well have made what he claims, but imo it would be impossible to do it the way he said he has done it.
I don't know much about Aussie horse racing though apart from that inrunning betting is as closed to banned as it can be.
I would therefore assume that there is almost no money in the market inrunning there ?
I don't know much about Aussie horse racing though apart from that inrunning betting is as closed to banned as it can be.
I would therefore assume that there is almost no money in the market inrunning there ?
My understanding is that you can bet on IR horseracing, but nothing else sportswise.
Is that incorrect ?
Is that incorrect ?
I don't know for sure, but I think you can bet on anything inrunning, but only by phone for anyone actually in Australia and that's why I assumed there were no liquidity inrunning on horses.
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