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eudaemon
28 Jun 11 11:36
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Date Joined: 24 May 01
| Topic/replies: 10 | Blogger: eudaemon's blog
Customers will be subject to Premium Charges at higher rates if they satisfy the following conditions:

Lifetime net profits exceed £250,000
Lifetime commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
Bet in more than 1,000 markets
The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:

Lifetime commission generated
to gross profits ratio     Applicable Premium Charge rate
< 5%      60%
5% - 10%      50%
> 10%      40%
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Report FINE AS FROG HAIR June 29, 2011 7:32 AM BST
I'm a 24/7 BF bot. I never sleep. Perpetually alert.
So beware.
Report mcfc1981 June 29, 2011 7:37 AM BST
why is a exchange punter winning 250k and a betfair poker player  winning 250k treated different?
all of betfairs reasoning about why they need to tax the exchange player should be valid for the poker player or does the poker player avoid charges coz he would be of in an instants to another poker site.
Report cpfc4me June 29, 2011 7:49 AM BST
Perhaps some of us are too efficient for our own good. One of the problems as I see it is that by moving the goal posts after seven plus years on here, the accumulated numbers are now counting against me. Had these rules been in place from day one, the need to have lots of losers to accompany your winners would have been clear, but as a trader specialising in certain sports, it's not unusual to go several days without taking a loss. But Betfair don't allow you to start again.
Report Gomozkov June 29, 2011 8:07 AM BST
do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace
Report DonNo1 June 29, 2011 9:40 AM BST
'No logic in their explanation.....'

They have to paint it as if there's solid logic behind it, as marginal users we 'cost' no more than losers to betfair to provide this 'service'.  But apparently they're 'subsidising' us, it's as if Betfair derived all these profitable strategies and are now employing us to execute them. I wonder how ridiculous that suggestion would have sounded to the founders when they set up the site.
The 250 threshold is baffling, they're admitting that the pricing structure has been woeful for 10 years, but they were oblivious to that fact for 8 and only minor commission changes were required?
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? June 29, 2011 11:09 AM BST
"BETFAIR are to increase the charges on their most successful users to as much as 60 per cent of gross win next month in a move the betting exchange claim will protect smaller players using the site." (Racing Post)

What Betfair don't understand is that the majority of their customers want to become successful using this site, and this put clouds of doom on the horizon for that success. It not only offends the customers who win a lot already, but also the customers who want to get to that position, those very same smaller punters they claim to be protecting. No forward thinking from Betfair, just money grabbing tactics and utterly disgraceful.

"At the present level, Betfair, who believe only around 500 of their 3.8 million registered users will be affected by the new charges, claim to break even on the highly profitable users, but state that profits from elsewhere are ploughed into improving the site to meet levels of trading from big punters and advertising to attract new customers to maintain liquidity in the markets." (Racing Post)

Prove it Betfair. Publish the numbers. Show us how many of your punters are affected by this, as if you check the comments under this Racing Post story it seems that there are a lot of people who do not fit your 'big fish' claims have been affected by the premium charge already.

"A spokesman said: “Betfair believes that the implementation of the adjusted charge will provide the business with fair compensation for the service it provides to those impacted customers, who currently pay a rate of commissions and charges that does not reflect the benefit they gain from the Betfair ecosystem." (Racing Post)

A business gets regular customers, those who keep it going by spending a lot on it. It does not drive them away by charging them many times that which the other customers pay. Betfair management need to learn some basic business strategy.

"We have evolved our pricing model to ensure we have a fair pricing structure for all of our customers, over 99.9 per cent of whom are not affected by this adjustment." (Racing Post)

The solution to the premium charge should be simple. Set commission rates at 5% for everyone, no reductions for anything. Most customers don't mind if they are paying 5% or 4% etc. THe majority of them don't even take any notice of their commission rates. Considering the millions of customers Betfair claim to have, that would surely generate more than the premium charge from those '500' largest profit-makers does. Unless of course, is it more than 500, and more than 0.01% of the customers?
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 11:29 AM BST
Well, that just wouldn't work.  Liquididty would plummet along with betfair's revenue.
Report TheInvestor2 June 29, 2011 12:04 PM BST
FINE AS FROG HAIR
[...]
I can see from analyses of my current betting strategies that even in a worst case scenario I should still be able to earn a net 8 % pa on total revenues( defined as the total liabilities of all my bets). That's well down from my current levels,[...]


I remember you being incredulous about people making extremely high % gains on their capital. I think 8% on turnover is very high, I take it you are only betting a very small fraction of your bank each day?

If I turn over roughly my full bank each day, with a NET ROI of 0.2% after all trading fees, my balance will double over 350 days. 

If you turn over roughly 2.5% of your bank each day, your bank will also double over 350 days.

Both with profits fully reinvested of course.

Am I misinterpreting something here?
Report Rocket to the FACE June 29, 2011 12:37 PM BST
viva was it you that suggested Betfair may buy BDak?

It makes sense in more ways than one. I wonder if that's in the pipeline
Report u25k June 29, 2011 12:43 PM BST
will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy
Report blank June 29, 2011 12:50 PM BST
do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace

Good Question. I think they will. The big Swedish firm that signed an agreement with Betfair must have different charges to the rest of us are there would be no need no to sign an agreement. If they were seeding all the minor markets it wouldn't be so bad if they got commission discounts, but according to an old rp article about them 15% of their buisness is on the premier league.
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 1:23 PM BST
I was told that they had no preferential treatment, although that was a while ago.
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 1:25 PM BST
Unless I'm misunderstanding this they are aiming for a target of 40% for people caught by this, the 60% etc will be (to absolutely hammer) existing customers who are still on a relatively low figure, and once they've been hammered enough they'll drop to 50% then 40%?

I.e the 5% trigger etc in the initial post in this thread surely includes PC, you'd think, so the 60% will quickly move people over the threshholds as PC ramps up the total commission paid.

But that almost says there are some specific people they are targetting, the 60% thing seems almost deliberately punative!
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 1:30 PM BST
That's what I thought, although someone on a basic 5% is much less likely to be hit by losing sequences than someone on 38%.
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 1:37 PM BST
There does seem one unfairness in this which is that's it's over an entire persons lifetime?
It's effectively a tax based on life earnings.

Going forward assuming they keep it, someone who has been here 15 years earning 20 grand a year on average will start getting hammered for 40%, someone who has been here 5 years earning 40 grand a year will be on 20%. They should roll it off so winnings < 5 years ago are discounted or something.

And as with anything, honest people who've managed to earn that figure will likley pay it, others will likely find ways round it :(
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 1:38 PM BST
(I say going forward as I know BF hasn't been around 15 years has it, but you get the point)
Report aspy65 June 29, 2011 1:44 PM BST
wow there is a genuine betting exchange out there with no tax.... just person to person betting

its betduck.   any viable compitition now will bring down betfair very quickly.

betfair are taking a massive risk.   there forcing massive luqidity to betduck which is not wise...  lets get on our bike and make betduck strong!
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 1:50 PM BST
Betduck - the Duck without the Bill!

(I should work in marketing)
Report Eddie the eagle June 29, 2011 1:58 PM BST
Just checking, PC paid doesn't come into it when they calculate whether you shal pay 40 , 50 or 60 %.  They just look at commission generated, so you are stuck on 60 % as long as you keep on being under 5 % in commission generated.
  This is what they have said :

Lifetime commission generated
to gross profits ratio     Applicable Premium Charge rate
< 5%      60%
5% - 10%      50%
> 10%      40%
Report TheInvestor2 June 29, 2011 1:59 PM BST
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will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy


This almost certainly won't happen, but there would be no issues at all if both parties agreed. As an exchange Betfair already has an effective monopoly and buying purple would hardly even make a difference. Betfair can legitimately claim that as a bookmaker they are operating in an extremely competitive market place though.

Before I joined Betfair my betting experience was limited to a £5 free bet. Betfair was not seriously competing with anyone for my business. If betting exchanges didn't exist, I would not be betting with a traditional bookie instead, so they are not competing with anyone other than purple and the other smaller exchanges for my business, although Pinny is a viable alternative for a small part of my betting overall.
Report TheInvestor2 June 29, 2011 2:01 PM BST
blank
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do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace

Good Question. I think they will. The big Swedish firm that signed an agreement with Betfair must have different charges to the rest of us are there would be no need no to sign an agreement. If they were seeding all the minor markets it wouldn't be so bad if they got commission discounts, but according to an old rp article about them 15% of their buisness is on the premier league.


Exactly what I was thinking. I'd love to know what's in the agreement. Perhaps it's an agreement to keep charges stable for a long period of time. That's what I would want, as it's important for a company making longer term plans and investments.
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 2:06 PM BST
Ahh ok Eddie I was assuming it was like PC Mk I, where it all hinges on a single commision paid figure, and losing bets also count towards it along with PC paid. I'm still not 100% sure you're correct though as I could read what you've posted as either way, as that could STILL be a TOTAL commission, all types, paid.

On the premium portal they don't split PC paid from other commision as stands.

Will PC Mk II payers have two figures to look at? We'll know in 2 or 3 weeks I'm sure either way.
Report M.Hill June 29, 2011 2:07 PM BST
do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace

Good question. The bookmaker thing could be the reason behind the whole PC issue. I know that Betfair want bookmakers to trade with them in a systematic way. They have told some bookmakers they want only bookmakers to be their big traders and not just regular people. I know of 'big' bookmakers that do not have access to the BF website anymore because they didn't sign up to this deal with BF.

What can you make of that?
Report Eddie the eagle June 29, 2011 2:11 PM BST
JC, if you look at the portal(the old one), you will see that commission generated is not including PC paid. Commission generated is added up with Other Charges(for those who have paid any of that) and PC paid in order to get the Total Charges number.
Report Just Checking June 29, 2011 2:16 PM BST
Sorry you're right Eddie. Blush. The blush emoticon really is useless, it's virtually identical to laugh.

So if you're correct, that makes even LESS sense. Is it .. to encourage 60% payers to make more losing bets?!
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 2:21 PM BST
That's a good point M. If betfair have, or want to attract, these kind of deals the margins would have to be bigger than lone users such as myself would tolerate.  The purple have effectively excluded me for undercutting their preferred suppliers and maybe this results from the same business idea?
Report M.Hill June 29, 2011 2:32 PM BST
Catfloppo..
The purple have effectively excluded me for undercutting their preferred suppliers
Meaning that you were successfull in some markets where some bookies might have deals with purple? And this was why they cut you out? I cannot believe this?.. What reason were you given?
Report Eddie the eagle June 29, 2011 2:34 PM BST
No JC, I think it's just so that Betfair can collect more from the ones who have nowhere else to go.
Report Rocket to the FACE June 29, 2011 2:45 PM BST
TheInvestor2
29 Jun 11 13:59
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will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy

As an exchange Betfair already has an effective monopoly and buying purple would hardly even make a difference.


It would allow them to keep hold of both sets of customers i.e any they may lose due to the new charge.
Report Rocket to the FACE June 29, 2011 2:47 PM BST
Although I suppose if that happened they wouldn't be able to operate both exchanges with such a step in comm.
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 2:57 PM BST
M, I wasn't successful but yes, that's what I mean.  They raised my minimum bet size to £10 because my bets were 'pushing bigger bets' off the display.  During the exchange it was clear that the owners of the 'bigger bets' were preferred customers. I politely emailed them a goodbye note along with some figures showing the volume of my activity on betfair.
Report Rocket to the FACE June 29, 2011 3:07 PM BST
Unfortunately that's how they operate. Same as Betfair only the dak are far far more candid about it at the moment.

It's very much a case of if your offer is more attractive to them than the last person or other bidder then you're in.
Report catfloppo June 29, 2011 7:05 PM BST
At least betfair, to the best of my knowledge, set the same rules for everyone.  My exchange was clearly with someone who was largely making it up as they went along.
Report ocean0201 June 29, 2011 7:52 PM BST
"BETFAIR are to increase the charges on their most successful users to as much as 60 per cent of gross win next month in a move the betting exchange claim will protect smaller players using the site." (Racing Post)

so will they distribute a % of the PC generated to smaller playrers / losers?? how will this charge protect anyone?
Report allinadayswork June 29, 2011 9:11 PM BST
They will take some of the winners money off them to make the losers feel better probably. Thats maybe what they are trying to say.
Report u25k June 29, 2011 10:30 PM BST
betfair today said they tae 72% of customers pot money.

A successful betfarian needs discipline in staking and selection of bets. Otherwise (greed) he will lose.

I think betfair was successful until now because they provided good interface and charged reasonably. But now they due to greed they are shooting themselves. Now the goalpost is at 250k but tomorrow they can shift it to 10k or 50k. No one dare to charge 60% (not even govt can dare to tax like that). It is simply saying that we don't want you. They want to seed their markets and want to take all the profits themselves. Therefore it creates a gap in market that is pure exchange where users can bet among themselves and pay sensible commission charges. I do think betfair is losing their status as exchange and becoming another bookmaker. Possibly they will fail big because of mix up.
Report jme June 29, 2011 10:32 PM BST
Nadal, Federer and Djokovic get a phone call from the ATP, "Sorry guys you are far too successful,won too many slams and have taken the vast majority of prize money out of our ecosystem, So we are going to charge 60% of any future prize money and reclaim 60% of your future titles won".

The Fab three, totally outraged by such treatment decide to retire from tennis.

What happens next? Well the next level of talent come through, Murray, Tsonga, Del Potro. They start to dominate and win most of the slams and take home most of the prize money.

You cant stop nature, there will allways be one person who outperforms another. There will allways be Winners and Losers. Eliminating these 500 top earners will just see the next crop come through, the ones who are just under the 250k lifetime mark. Then When Betfair eliminate that 500, another 500 will take their place. This is not the answer Betfair.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR June 29, 2011 10:53 PM BST
jme
They would only retire if they could do something else as rewarding elsewhere.
Otherwise they would stay and make the best of it.
The big winners on BF can still make relatively big money, even after the PC.
They can't make any money with the HS bookies it would seem, or else they would be there in a flash.
They presumably can't make money either in any form of non-gambling activity, or at least not as good levels of money, or else they would be there in a flash.
I sympathise only with the complaints about the fact that the net being thrown out by BF to catch the big winners not paying a fair amount for the benefits they receive from the BF platform, is regrettably hauling in many smaller fish who by virtue of their betting patterns look to be big winners one week and next week are clearly
not. They are being unfairly penalised.
Report Alexandru June 29, 2011 11:13 PM BST
My current life time charges (what they calculated is 19.1%), this means I am a 40% payer.

I have one question: If after 18 of july I lose 10,000 first week and pay 1000 in commission.  Next week I make 5000 and also pay 1000 in commission.  I would pay 40% this week total charges, since I am still way ahead of 40% life time total charges, correct? 

Thank you.
Report allinadayswork June 30, 2011 12:12 AM BST
This is what comes of putting too many eggs in one basket, I've always spread my betting around to avoid being hung, drawn and quartered by any one operator, being adaptable and moving around is the way forward.
Report Eddie the eagle June 30, 2011 7:14 AM BST
Alexandru, they will put you on 40 % total charges paid come July 18th, as if that was what you had paid up to that date.
  You will therefore not pay any PC in the scenario you described.
  If you stitch the weeks though, you would have to pay PC the first week.
Report Eddie the eagle June 30, 2011 7:15 AM BST
If you switch the weeks
Report viva el presidente! June 30, 2011 10:06 AM BST
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This is what comes of putting too many eggs in one basket, I've always spread my betting around to avoid being hung, drawn and quartered by any one operator, being adaptable and moving around is the way forward.

---------

all well and good, but if you're a trader there is only one basket.

that's why they've been able to do this.
Report catfloppo June 30, 2011 10:45 AM BST
There are other baskets but they are not as good.
Report viva el presidente! June 30, 2011 10:52 AM BST
I don't think "not as good" does it justice.
Report catfloppo June 30, 2011 12:15 PM BST
In my case the eggs fell straight through the bottom
Report baldloaf June 30, 2011 12:43 PM BST
catfloppo, when I switched to ****, a bot latched onto my activity one day and  cut me out of every market. It applied a fixed percentage rise to my bets too which meant that whatever I put in, it would put in exactly the same plus x% where x was fixed. I was doing the same as you, undercutting, trying to form a better margin than 140% which was the norm. The bot went away for a short time and then re-apeared but I already had access to another channel by then. I still don't know if the original account was 'tagged' in some way or just a very annoying bot which was refreshing the market 1000 times a second. The 'cover bets' always appeared instantly.

p.s.

catfloppo
29 Jun 11 19:05
At least betfair, to the best of my knowledge, set the same rules for everyone.
catfloppo
29 Jun 11 13:23
I was told that they had no preferential treatment, although that was a while ago.


You gotta laugh. Why exactly would they tell you anything?
Report catfloppo June 30, 2011 1:11 PM BST
That kind of activity has been fixed on here by the implementation of the transaction charge, I used to get the same thing when I played manually on **** years ago on f1.  The bots then would also be looking at betfair prices because as you forced them up they would retreat again as they got within a few ticks of the prices here.

I asked about the 'deal' because I was interested in whether there were options available to me.  I was told no, but as I said, that was a few years ago.
Report Alan.Partridge June 30, 2011 1:33 PM BST
I have three letters for everyone:

A G M

Everyone on here who's disgusted by these changes - buy some shares, get along to the AGM, and raise HELL.
Report 1.01 Layer June 30, 2011 1:59 PM BST
Can you go to the AGM if you've shorted them? Laugh
Report Rob_The_Bantam June 30, 2011 10:34 PM BST
Hopefully someone here can help me.  I don't look at horse racing markets on a daily basis but I've been using the site long enough to have used them pretty often.  Was there much less liquidity in the markets today than usual?  Or was I imagining it?
Report lanza July 1, 2011 12:02 AM BST
cricket runlines seemed well down as was top bats. Sad
Report Contrarian July 1, 2011 8:31 AM BST
Can you go to the AGM if you've shorted them?

LOL
Report jabmast July 1, 2011 9:30 AM BST
Can anybody affected please confirm that the "terms.betfair.com" site still shows you the detail? Can't seem to access it anymore (maybe they're just recalculating it including the latest week).
Report foxy_moron July 1, 2011 9:41 AM BST
Somebody on here suggested that a strategy of making more marginal bets, thus increasing the volatility would decrease the premimum charge. I don't think this is the case. With a premium charge of 40%, the actual charge paid can be unlimited upwards, even for someone who perhaps makes only 40k a year, so that they fall within the 250k lifetime profit.

For example, let us say that your profits for four weeks, before commission, are as follows:

Week    Profit
1    11377.71
2    9457.90
3    -6087.39
4    -9608.68
5    4448.32

So, you have made £9587.86 in total on the five-weeks, but the premium charge is assessed on the lifetime high, so you pay £8334.24. And after four weeks you were net negative.

It is quite possible to have premium charge rates of 4000%; I supposed you can always borrow from wonga.com or quickquid.co.uk to pay it!
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 9:54 AM BST
Foxy, do you know anyone with this type of betting pattern that is in premium charge territory?  People keep coming up with hypothetical examples that look awful but in reality don't/can't actually happen.
Report Lori July 1, 2011 10:07 AM BST
If someone can do some modelling, then I think the key number is standard deviation/average win (per week)

Mine is about 2.2, using slightly old data. I believe that means I have a losing week about 32% of the time, though I've done that quickly and it's early.
Report foxy_moron July 1, 2011 10:24 AM BST
yes, catfloppo, that was taken from my record, randomly picked, and I will pay premium charge at 40% if I decide to continue. My losing week percentage is around 29% and as Lori says the key figure is the standard deviation of the results each week. What seems wrong is that one gets no refund of premium charge when you lose during a week, even though the premium charge paid is then a much higher percentage of profits.

On my simulation, around 2% of the time I will have paid more total premium charge than total profits earned, taking week 1 as the 18th July 2011 - in other words premium charges greater than 100%. I think Edward Thorp said that skilful blackjack players seem to be losing 99% of the time, in that they are below their last high. So, the 40% is a minimum, but has no upper limit.
Report Eddie the eagle July 1, 2011 10:26 AM BST
catfloppo, there were a with that kind of betting patterns caught when the threshold was 20 %.
   That number could possibly be multipled by ten when the threshold is raised to 40 % as long as we talk of people who meets the others criterias for paying the 40 - 60 % charge,
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 10:34 AM BST
If you repeat those 5 weeks over and over what happens?
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 10:39 AM BST
I know Eddie, and I am personally in favour of a rebate system that would mean the rate is pegged.  But it's still the case that if you have a losing week it reduces the amount of pc that you pay in the future so sometimes these snapshots are unrepresentative.  I'm interested that foxy is using real data though, I'm tired of seeing made up examples.
Report foxy_moron July 1, 2011 10:43 AM BST
After 40 weeks, you are down to 45.8% premium charge, and it does, of course, close in on 40%. That is because you are having no standard deviation of the 5 week batches either.

2% of the time I will have paid more than 80% premium charge over a 40 week period.
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 10:49 AM BST
So it does even out somewhere around 40%?  That's how I understood it.
Report Lori July 1, 2011 10:54 AM BST
That's only assuming your edge doesn't erode.

You will almost always have paid more than you should (The blackjack analogy about almost never being at your high point applies)
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 10:59 AM BST
It will still settle even then, won't it?  With lower profits obviously.
Report foxy_moron July 1, 2011 12:08 PM BST
No, if you do more lower margin trades, then the standard deviation of your week's results will go up, and the chance of you paying much more than 40% will rise. And if you have a higher strike rate, then the PC will inch up from 40% to 60%. Somebody who aims to trade out at a profit in every market might only pay an average of 2-3% commission. They will then pay 60% of their profits as PC, although they will always be at this 60%. Somebody with high volatility will have PC's fluctuating wildly between 40% and 100%. It will only be at 40% when your cumulative profits before PC are at a new high.
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 12:54 PM BST
I understand that there is an (unfortunate and unneccesary) asymmetry in the treatment of winning and losing weeks that will cause the actual amount paid in pc to settle, long term, at some point above the user's designated base rate.  But not much above if my aged and now hurting brain is able to visualise this correctly.
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 12:55 PM BST
*unnecessary
Report Lori July 1, 2011 1:05 PM BST
If your edge erodes to the point where your long term number is over 40%, then every bit of PC you paid would be too much.

While you may dismiss that as another unlikely scenario, I'd argue that edges are eroded all the time on here and it's actually a very likely scenario.
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 1:16 PM BST
Once your long term number is above 40 you won't pay any.

I agree about eroding edges, mine have been worn smooth Cry
Report Lori July 1, 2011 1:23 PM BST
Sorry I've been misunderstanding you.

I'm meaning that you can be a break even player and have paid PC in the past.
Report catfloppo July 1, 2011 1:37 PM BST
Yeah, I can see that
Report pumpkinslayerII July 1, 2011 4:08 PM BST
And important point that is easy to miss is that the charge is not retrospective. It doesn't matter what you betting activity was in the past, it only matters in the future.

"For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting is now set at 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. This will ensure that you are considered to have generated total charges equal to at least 40% of lifetime gross profits at the point that the new rate becomes effective."
Report bingo bongo July 2, 2011 1:14 AM BST
Yes but also the new charge is based on lifetime profit and the second part, the increase to 50, 60% is on lifetime commission generated which is entirely retrospective.

Is it fair that a new customer can win at a much faster rate than a long standing one and pay no premium charge, at least until they hit the 250k limit. And further to that they now know that it is in their interest to pursue strategies to increase their commission paid from the outset. How could someone have known that 10 years ago?
Report catfloppo July 2, 2011 8:14 AM BST
The commission system isn't fair and never has been.  With pc it is fairer because there is less disparity between the amounts of commission that is paid.  It does put existing successful players at a disadvantage but that also makes it exciting for new users.
Report Eddie the eagle July 2, 2011 9:47 AM BST
Why is it exciting for new players to know that winners with a good strike rate pay more to Betfair than they used to and that themselves will have to pay a large chunk of their winnings to Betfair if they become successful ?
Report catfloppo July 2, 2011 9:53 AM BST
I don't know really, I just imagine if I was starting out now the prospect of having a small advantage over established players would inspire me and I would look forward to joining them one day 250k richer.
Report Lori July 2, 2011 9:55 AM BST
I don't think most will see it that way, people don't go into this game to win a few thousand, they go into it to win millions. If they're going to get cut down after years of work takes them to 250k (and this number seems likely to come down) they're just not going to take the game up. IMO of course.
Report Eddie the eagle July 2, 2011 10:01 AM BST
But new players have no advantage in the betting !
  They just pay a smaller commission on their winnings.
Report frames July 13, 2011 8:33 PM BST
The opening thread on the topic for Templeton.
Report Templeton Peck July 13, 2011 9:16 PM BST
Thanks frames, I must have found this thread just moments before you brought it to the top for me.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 3:33 PM BST
the fact that betduck can survive and prosper currently with 2.5 accross the board charge and similar promotions shows that betfair must be in real trouble at the moment to purge the pockets and accounts of there most sucessful clients.

instead of betfair customers coming under the spotlight and branded incorectly by small minded folk
lets take a close look at betfairs current business management of what is a working exchange business model.

1.....betfair has invested heavily in overseas markets and come unstuck with many goverments and orginisations, this has been costly and this cost must be paid from the assets of the average betfair
punter.

2.....betfair has spent far too much money in advertising, even at times when they didnt need too as they were the only exchange company of any worth trading, this must be paid from the assets of the average betfair puter.

3.....betfair has spent far too much money in competion with high street bookmakers and law suits.
this has been regretable and most betfair punters have always sided with betfair as it is a radical change away from the rackteering bookmakers restrictive practices.

4.....betfair has had too spend fortunes upgrading its hq and recently moving it to malta which should of helped them compete more fairly with the big bookmakers who already operate some of there services from the same location.

5.....betfair has had too find money too pay for all the above and other costs from private backers, 1 of which bought a huge share in the company and has even tried in vain too float on the stock market to raise more capital.

with all the above movements and costs in betfair operations it is no wonder that now we find that the premium charge has juped from a 20% level to what is effectively a 60% rate as they now need to exploit there revenus which account holders are fair game and the bigger they are the more they will take off them too feed there army of investores, staff, costs etc, etc, etc

betfairs problems are classic too many businesses in there formative years and its always the same formula, investment over returns, in my view they need to make some radical changes to there infra-structure in terms of expenses and revilalise there relationship with the average betfair punter before they become a victim of there own sucess
Report catfleppo July 14, 2011 3:55 PM BST
The average betfair punter isn't affected by the premium charge.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:04 PM BST
there is an old saying in business that rings so true, "get too know your customers and there needs"

the reason i say this here and now in relation too Betfair is that Betfair is a maverick and a miracle as it has achieved things that are truly quite amazing, and ok there profit margins may not be as large as the big bookmakers who have been building there success off the back of race courses and there pinching there customers for many decades now but betfair have done it no thrills on the internet in a brilliant way.

my arguement is that it is unfair to throw all the customers into one,two or three pigeon holes based purley on there profit making, what should be happening is that customers are graded by a different system, if they are traders, bookmakers, cheats are average punters they should have there commision charge graded . this would be fair all round and would bring transparency too general policys on charging. too charge potentially any sucessful or hopeful puter the same as a trader or bookmaker that is purging there revenues is unfair and if betfair wants to reclaim its "fair" policys then this is in my mind the fairess way forward. all honest puters would glady show betfair how they achieve there profit, cheats would have no where too hide, traders cant hide the fact that they make many times more bets per minute than normal punters and bookmakers can be sourced with a little investigation or information reward.
Report catfleppo July 14, 2011 4:12 PM BST
Disagree entirely, betfair are right to impose additional charges on people based on their impact on the business rather than their style of play. Apart from anything else how on earth would you go about fitting people into your categories?
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:14 PM BST
punters that use bots are not doing any hard work and are forcing betfair to constantly upgrade there systems , they derserve to pay a higher charge as they can sit back and let the compter do all the work.

cheats deserve nothing and should be banned from the site for good.

bookmakers should pay the fullest rate of premium charge as they are laying off bets probalbly off there account records from there most sucessful punters or liabiltys.

prediction modellers from general napsters too historical race data surveyers should pay a lesser amount as this is who the site was made for and they should still pay premium charge but at a fairer rate as they have worked the hardest for there money.
Report catfleppo July 14, 2011 4:21 PM BST
Why is it fairer to pay people for hard work?  There no reward in your system for the innovation and smartness that has been at the very core of betfair since the start.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:26 PM BST
well if you cannot see the basis for the introduction and sucess of exchange business models is a break away from just plain gambling at fixed odds against a consistent loss in the odds to a fairer model that encourages sucessful exchages and prediction investment then hey yeh, lets stereotype the old way and say that betfair is full of a mixed bag of everything and charge them all the same as people that are breaking the law potentially like bookmakers and race or match fixing account holders .

if only 500 people fit the £250,000 hpc rate then this is a small number too investigate and i am sure any honest punter or trader will show them how they have achieved ther sucess, i doubt very much that bookmakers, account falsifiers, and the like would be able to co-operate the same way and if they cant verify there system then freeze there assets.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:33 PM BST
people who work hard do not need too ask to be paid more, they usually get it anyway, people that have the time to complain at other peoples sucess usually have nothing better too do though lack of ambition or drive or plain bone idleness . betfair sold there dream on the basis that any sucessful punter would have more chance of a reward staying with them then they would say using high street bookmakers , if you did some research you would find out that the very 2 people that made betfair were professional gamblers.
Report Feck N. Eejit July 14, 2011 4:33 PM BST
The charge should be based on liquidity provided. To charge someone who generates 10% the same as someone who generates 40% is asking for trouble. It's also unfair (and borderline illiterate) to charge someone generating 9.99% 25% more than someone generating 10%.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:37 PM BST
very true feck, do you know if what happens too someone that saay has made 240,99 gbp and crosses the threshold , will the post 250,000 become directly liable too higher pc , if so i cant see punters risking another bet and for this reason there higher pc is doomed anyway
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:45 PM BST
according to betfair there are at least 500 punters that have made 250,000 plus profit, thats
125,000,000 thats quite alot and letting information out like that plus capitilising on it is opening the back door to the future taxation of all professional  gamblers including lottery winners and the like.

will this be there legacy, betfair, the home of winners helping to promote the butchery of pro gamblers assets.
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:47 PM BST
its always the same story, let the ducks get fat, load the guns and open the season!
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 4:58 PM BST
one thing about ducks is they too have a policy, when the getting fat gets tough and the predators gather, spread your wings and feck off and migrate
Report Feck N. Eejit July 14, 2011 5:10 PM BST
according to betfair there are at least 500 punters that have made 250,000 plus profit, thats
125,000,000 thats quite alot and letting information out like that plus capitilising on it is opening the back door to the future taxation of all professional  gamblers including lottery winners and the like.

will this be there legacy, betfair, the home of winners helping to promote the butchery of pro gamblers assets.


A long time fear of mine harechaser and yet very few of that 500 are gamblers?
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 5:22 PM BST
yep i agree Feck , its common knowlege on betfair that the bookmakers are using betfair to lay bets with a profit as they have had someone back big in there business, they make a profit weather the base punter wins or loses, it doesnt go through there books so the bookmaker makes a tax free profit!

its tax fraud on a large scale, you only have too look at a night dog meeting and when its a busy event the amounts bet on betfair go up considerably when there is the same amount of average punters betting so there must be contacts betting from trackside too the betfair site, this must account for alot of the horse racing as well, the amounts bet at horses races compared too greyhound races are grossly different.

betfair dont want too lose these fat cats so they wont discriminate what a punter is involved with as they will scare them off from the bookmakers scamming.

so we the honest punters get thrown in a bag with them and if we make a good living we will have to pay the same as them, not fair at all
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 5:28 PM BST
i remember years ago i saw a manager from a local bookmaker the then sruggling william hill organisation placing a whole load of bets with ladbrokes laying off, they have been doing it for years and getting away with it and really all that money was originally the likes off me and yous, yes the average joe has has been milked for years and we always will .
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 5:33 PM BST
now the only advantage that betfair can offer is the best odds available too and least commision deducted from the most consistant losers on a platform that can suck your money up the fastest

finacial hoovervile on a dyson level turbo power
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 5:46 PM BST
if betfair brought a board game out too compete with waddingtons monopoly all the rents would be nice and low if you landed on one but once you pass go all your hotels would turn into houses, your house would turn into dog kennels and we would all get thrown into jail and get out for free all at the same time, what a winner
Report harechaser6 July 14, 2011 5:49 PM BST
i think actually betfair would be more interested in the other board game where the goal is too lose a million the fastest possible way
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