Premium charge rebates

Yes, it's silly.  On an open exchange every type of player should be respected for what they do, especially if they make a profit.  But they all need to pay their dues to betfair.

I don't think it would cost them much at all Eddie. The number of gamblers hit as a result of a good run or increasing stakes will be extremely low and if a trader's edge gets less he's still in profit so will continue to pay the pc and not be due any rebate. The only way it would really cost them is if a successful trader suddenly turned into a losing gambler. Hardly likely and he'd have to be losing for a long time in order to get his pc's back as they'd only be getting rebated at the same rate as he was paying normal commission on the odd winning bet.

The losing runs would kill you stewarty. I do best when your average punters complaining about the results and worst when they're saying they can't bet a loser.



I know where you're coming from Feck, however I doubt if they'd finish me off. I'm aware we have different srategys, hence the losing runs you have are probably far worse than mine financially. (even though your bank book is more swollen than mine!) As for drip  feeding, no doubt it's harder to get a 16/1 shot layed as opposed to a 4/1 beast if the liquidity isn't substancial. Having said that I tend to wait until the last few minutes and take a shorter price if I'm not matched. That is if I fancy it strongly enough. However if it's 3/1 instead of the 4/1 I think it should be,I tend to just pass.



Of course one solution I have is that I could send you a cheque every week and and hopefully collect at the end of the flat season. Of course I would take into account YOUR commission of say, 25%

If this was introduced it would give most gamblers peace of mind and kill off a source of propaganda for pc calimeros. It would also make it easier for "sharp minded" traders who do their fun bets elsewhere to see the stupidity of doing so, make laying long shots a more viable proposition and remove a deterrent wrt increasing stakes. I doubt the all new liquidity generating premium charge could ever be introduced without some form of rebates to appease gamblers.

lol stewarty. First bet would be entire checque on Carlton House for the Irish Derby. [;)]

catfloppo
Yes, it's silly.  On an open exchange every type of player should be respected for what they do, especially if they make a profit. But they all need to pay their dues to betfair.

You mean the 'dues' that are based on assumptions and actually have nothing to do with how much money you take out the system?
I can understand fecks arguement about 'subsidising' (even though the blinkered old fool has a warped way of categorising some users here) but its a very black and white way of summarising. There is a much bigger problem on the exchange which no-one seems to be addressing. But hey, so long as we keep bickering with the betfair plants, there is less and less chance of overcoming the anomolies without affecting those that shouldn't be.

lol Feck. I layed that beast nearly up to my eyballs and left little in the 'bank' had it won. 'Tank' being different as you well know.


A few questions for you Fed if you don't mind. (off subject a tad)

1) Have you got your **k back yet?

2) I noticed you mentioned The Magician, I trust he is well?

3)Have you ever heard from CAT? A forumite I really liked and had a lot of good banter with him. (I know he packed in his buisness)

4) Do you think Craig Thompson of Hearts will be sent bullets through the post like NL? NL never stooped so low after all. (his only crime was a bit of a wind up)

No offence if you care not to answer any btw. (I have no relations that were in the Gestapo btw, but if I get answers we could make it 30%.  [;)]

1) **k ???
2) AFAIK things are still going well for him.
3) Haven't heard from CAT in a long time. I think he's still on Punters Paradise. Sadly missed on here along with a few others.
4) He might. There's no shortage of bandwagon jumpers.

What do you mean stewarty, has the magician stopped his bots?

cat, I don't know about his bots, but he's banned from posting.

1) Feck, don't you remember I `asked you to let me know when you get your **k back?   (SPL)

I've got the stake back (for now at least) stewarty.

Well Done Feck. I
hope your success continues.


PS is it true that you're organising the GB Xmas get together this year in Scotland?

It was my misfortune to meet the magician recently. What a disappointment. Imo, I was totally respectful towards him while he treated me the opposite way completely.

Hope he enjoys counting his money because he hasnt got much else going for him.

I've never met the man noodles so can't comment.

Having said that, If Feck is in charge this year I wss going to suggest to him that instead of a Xmas doo, we could all meet at Hamilton racecourse for the Saints and Sinners meeting. (my late father came from Hamilton and I know the town reasonably well)


My suggestion would be to book a hotel and put all the punters at the Saints table, and all traders at the Sinners table. That way there would be no aggro.

Any opinions on my idea?

feck would surely prefer to take on all-comers on the traders table though  [;)]

I don't know noodles, but I think Feck has gone all coy on me.

I'm sure he will reply shortly.

Feck, It only takes less than a 2% swing on market turnover to change 30% commission generated into 20% if you're on a 2% commission rate. That doesn't seem unrealistic at all, especially if you're comfortably on 2% and can reduce stakes a bit to obtain better odds.

stewarty, would there be 'Gamblers Only' toilets?

blank, you'd think we'd have heard from a few of them by now.

the traders will have a man on toilet attendant duty... he'll charge you 25p and pass on 20p to the venue

Feck, you said in the opening post you were exactly the type of customer Betfair should want, but there's not much difference between you and a pc payer really.

blank, if they lost all their pc payers they've still got a site. If they lost all their non-pc payers they haven't.

Feck, The non-pc payers make up a very large group and you like to be in it, but the truth is you're almost in the pc payers group.

It's not being a pc payer that's relevant blank. IMO it's more about the difference between middleman and players.

feck, what type of person would you class as a middleman?

Most traders who have no opinion on odds or whose opening and closing trades have no significant gap between them.

GL to them if they can make it pay.

God knows why you seem to take it so personally.

Everything that is bad about this site is down to catering for people who contribute no real liquidity and yet they are charged the least.

Everyone who offers a price contributes to liquidity, only a complete imbecile would fail to grasp that simple concept.

In the same way that ticket touts contribute to attendances.

no, because the amount of tickets remains the same, meaning no benefit to a customer, whereas the more people who offer prices, the more people who can get their bet matched.

I did say "only a complete imbecile would fail to grasp that simple concept", so obviously not everyone understands.

That last line sounds like a confession TurtlesBrain.

If only 20% was set in stone, alas_ _ _

Artifice ... is it true that the Premium Charge is being raised massively?

That rumour has been made so often in the last couple of years... be madness from a PR perspective to raise the pc at the moment.

For big winners it is going up to as much as 60%

Been through the Hamilton card yet Feck? Not looking for names, but I fancy one.

If this rumour of 40 % is correct, I guess we can bury this thread

Who could think this was be a good move at the present dire time?

I'd have thought you'd have been pleased noddles.

Why not make it 80%?

Yes noodles, what is wrong with 40 % if the old 20 % was very fair ?

ps , was it you that was around 35 %

oh dear noodles.

I hope you don't start whinging anout it

about*

Total Charges % 19.89

For the sake of argument consider my activity since I started back 2 weeks ago and presume I'm a new customer. I passed the 250 market mark sometime last week. The situation last Thursday morning was such that I had only paid around 11% of my gross profit in normal commission. Had I stopped betting then I would've been charged around 4K (5K without my 1K allowance) in premium charges this Wednesday. Since then I hit a bad run and the situation yesterday (only 6 days later) is that I've paid around 80% of my gross profits in commission. Such swings are not uncommon for me. I've been known to go months without having a losing week but I'm also prone to equally bad losing spells.

Suppose I had been hit with that 4K charge. Suppose also that wasn't enough to scare me from the site and the winning start I got off to extended in to months. I could end up paying tens of thousands of pounds in premium charges that, by the end of the flat season, were only due because of the sequence of my results. Someone who had a similar season to mine BUT IN REVERSE ORDER would be charged maybe 30K less than me. That is nothing short of lunacy. When you consider that the original idea was based on a rolling 60 week period (rather than lifetime profit), which meant seasonal bettors like myself would've regularly lived in fear of it, those who initially introduced such an ill thought out plan should hide their faces in shame (imo).

When it was first introduced I was told there was no way a gambler like myself could possibly be hit. I questioned that at the time because the flat season had ended well for me and that didn't auger well for the start of the following flat season. 6 months and 5 football singles later I received an email saying I would've paid that week had it not been for the one week warning. Thankfully they changed to lifetime profit some time later but that doesn't help our hypothetical new customer. Regardless of whether you're a trader or gambler surely you'd agree that someone who's doing straight bets in almost every horse race should be welcomed with open arms by betfair, yet the fact they can't even appease our hypothetical new customer with rebates suggests they're only too willing to lose the odd one for very little gain.

It's obvious this charge was designed to hit the freeloaders but they didn't take into account the possible side effects when they introduced it. This form of rebate would at least address one of the very silly side effects of the charge. Not introducing it is not an option for any sane outfit.

Not looked yet stewarty as I'm updating my database and programme. Hope to be studying shortly.

Without giving any names Feck, I'd be obliged if you told me if you were getting involved in the 4.15.

Changes to the Premium Charge
Betfair Customer Services

    [Network Moderator Icon]

Betfair Customer Services
28 Jun 11 13:30
Joined:
22 May 02
| Topic/replies: 2,181 | Blogger: Betfair Customer Services's blog
From 18th July 2011 Betfair will be making some changes to the Premium Charge.  The current Premium Charge mechanism will remain in place but higher rates may now apply to a small number of customers (less than 0.1% of annual active customers).

Full details of the changes can now be found on the Betfair Charges page under the About Us section of the website. However, the changes can be summarised as follows:

•    Customers will only be subject to Premium Charges at higher rates if they satisfy all of the following conditions:

o    Lifetime net profits* exceed £250,000
o    Lifetime commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
o    Bet in more than 1,000 markets

•    Customers that satisfy all of the above conditions will be asked to pay Premium Charges at rates between 40% and 60% on all future exchange activity.

All customers that will be affected by these changes have already been contacted.

For more information, please visit our FAQ section here promotions.betfair.com/pcharge/

We hope the information provided will outline why we are making these changes and how they will be implemented in practice.

If you have any further questions, please send them to premiumcharge@betfair.com.

*by net profits we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all exchange markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited












Another shocker there. Will this feck you  Feck???

PS I did mention about the goalposts being moved all the time.

My lay on Sunday was mostly with another firm, thankfully it got beat or I would have turned purple with rage.

I have no doubt this firm's liquidity will increase substancially now......

Can you imagine winning 6k every week and giving BF 3k + ?


Truly shocking for some. No doubt the commission rate will change this year. (nap)

Difficult to see how to possibly carry on with Betfair.

I think Feck has fainted with this cracker. (nap)

"commission evasion" makes it sound like bf the HMRC

stewarty, I've not fainted but I'm having difficulty getting my head round this. Had they introduced something along the lines of the all new liquidity generating premium charge it might have made sense but this looks like the work of an inland revenue worker on drugs. If your Lifetime commission generated to gross profit ratio is 4.99% then your pc is 60% but if the ratio is 5.00% then you get a third off your pc's  . Have they never heard of sliding scale? Also, if these charges applied across the board there'd be little point in anyone opening a new account as they'd only get 250 markets out of it. Now you just have to find a new account to front you every quarter of a million. It's particularly funny when you think this is from the same people who couldn't consider rebates for fear of avoidance.

I presume the figures they've chosen are such that the main liquidity providers won't be affected much but overall it seems too ill thought out to assume anything. There isn't even a pr slight reduction in commission for those at the losing end.

yes feck, i can't be;ieve they did this rather than introduce your feck-witted scheme.

it's really come to something when coming up with something on the back of an envelope then obsessively cut and pasting it for months on end doesn't result in its being implemented.

viv, I believe what you're trying to say is that what they've done makes much more sense. No back of an envelope for betfair's boffins, eh?

actually, yes I think it does. but in any case, they probably trust the backs of their own envelopes more than yours.

another advantage of their scheme is, they're not going to obsessively cut and paste it all over the forum for the thick end of a year.

I'm sure they're glad you think so much of them viv.

Agree about the lack of a sliding scale, Feck. Absolutely outrageous.

If your Lifetime commission generated to gross profit ratio is 4.99% then your pc is 60% but if the ratio is 5.00% then you get a third off your pc's

Should be a fifth off but the comments about the absence of a sliding scale stand.

FFS, should be a sixth. I'm so daft I could work for betfair's charging department.

Feck---Isn't this something you said would never happen.

Feck--we're on a different thread---lol

Dear all,

Although I have mostly not taken part in these interesting discussions about the PC, I am really shocked to read the new 40-60% PC being introduced for some (not for me)

Although many proposals have been made about suing Bf, looking for loopholes, what I have always seen missing is someone actually challenging Bf advertising.

Bf advertises as an Exchange where odds are 20% in average and where a maximum of 5% commission is applied to winnings. Obviously since the introduction of the PC this is no longer true, but the ads remain exactly the same.

Without entering in the discussion about the benefits and/or counter-benefits of the PC, it is clear to me that the Gambling Commission should (note the "should" because I don't think the GC will do anything) request Bf to explicitly state in all adds mentioning "better odds" and "5% commission" that "winners may pay up to 20% commission and in some cases an unknown amount between 40-60% to be arbitrarily determined"

Thank you for your interesting posts and ideas

now five fold in trilloins   now that  a shock  is else where i am sad cos i was with and love betfair   

what   they did not allow for  long time players   10 years plswhat if  some one on 1 year and get 250k    it seems  so   wrong

Lifetime net profits* exceed £250,000 ok for 1 year  or 3      what they thinking     that for i am here for 10 years no way betting footy fun bet on 40%     IT A   BIG BYE   BYE

a big nose dive  7.20     will be   now 3  not on oh why

In English please chris ?

English please chris ?
Rate reply:
oh   i cant speak   i am  deaf   and dumb who was working in a dead end job 10 years ago and i love betfair  and now they asking for 40 to 60    wtf   how can we bet  happy now

Eddie the eagle

just calm down all  i am saying  if   betting  fun bet on  even money  it like bye bye

asking for 40 to 60 on even money p i si s o  f   f

most guys on  fun bets   are like  yes we buy buy  and now   thanks feck and dead

That's much better chris. I had no problems understanding your last 4 posts.

Please note that for the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred Premium Charges at the prevailing rate. This will ensure that you are considered to have generated total charges equal to at least 40% of your lifetime gross profits at the point the new rate becomes effective.

This has got me thinking again about the absence of the sliding scale mentioned in my 14:42 post. If your lifetime commission generated to lifetime gross profit is 4.99% then they give you an allowance to bring your previous charges up to 60%. On the first week you place a few extra fun bets to get your ratio up to or beyond 5.0 so that you're now pc'd at 50%. Since your allowance means you paid 60% all those previous weeks/years does that not mean you'll avoid the pc for some time to come?

Being very close to 10% had me thinking the same.

They would have to make an adjustment for anyone going from 5.01% to 4.99%

I hadn't even thought about the other way JML. This whole thing is crazy. It's as if they're doing a Reggie Perrin.

None of these new charges change the argument for rebates. For most people (especially newbies) nothing's changed. For most affected by the new charges rebates were never that relevant. For most of the rest of us the need for rebates will very likely increase as we'll be facing a charge we have no backup for.

As an example, I've paid lifetime generated of 25% so will have to pay pc's of 40%. Let's say in the first week I show a profit of 100K but only pay 20K normal commission in the process. I'll then be charged 20K pc's. The next week I lose 100K. Compare this with me losing 100K the first week and then winning 100K the following week. In this case I escape the 20K premium charge. Lunacy. As I was previously only generating 25% it could be argued that I'll almost certainly pay pc's in the future and that 20K will be offset against them. That's fair enough but that doesn't apply to anyone who's already generated near or above 40%.

IMO, this charge as it stands will scare off many of the big gamblers. Betfair might get away with this but, while most of those hit are in no position to do anything about it, they are sailing close to the wind in messing with those who can make a difference.

The whole commission issue needs ripped up and started from scratch and I don't say that because I'm being hit. There must be less complex ways of extracting the same amounts from the same people.

I'm on 34% lifetime charges. That'll teach me for being smug at all those moaning PC payers in previos posts. Now I have to foot a bill that is 40%!

Also made a very stupid mistake by checking my email today, on the first day of a holiday. Wish I hadn't looked at it until I get home :(

if you havnt won 250000 whats the problem?

If he recieved an e-mail he has won £250K.

How soon before they lower the 205k threshold ??

No problem for those people. Not yet anyway.

I suspect that many new accounts will spring up soon that have a fresh £0 lifetime profit and a very active betting record...

Isn't it the case that the really consistent big time winning gamblers ( not the plungers who win and lose big time erratically) will be earning petty much the same level of profits week in and week out with their bots that make mkts at small mark ups.
Aren't they the real liquidity makers and thus should not be really affected by the super PC charge, any more than the everyday normal punters will be.

How long before the plants arrive??

What I don't understand is Betfair's justification for this. Are they really saying that it costs them up to 60% of a successful punter's profit to run this site? Are the Betfair servers running on gold dust? How come back in the day Betfair was making good profits on 5% and 20% ?

You don't believe that Mr Magoo??

Betfair said it so it must be true :) it can't possibly be because there are more shareholders to feed nowdays

Can't believe that betfair would be struggling so badly that this was the best idea they could fashion[;)]

How come back in the day Betfair was making good profits on 5% and 20% ?




More to the point,forget about the 20%, they grew large with their 5% commission structure......

froggie came a'courtin

...popularity at BF headquarters.

BETFAIR are to increase the charges on their most successful users to as much as 60 per cent of gross win next month in a move the betting exchange claim will protect smaller players using the site.

FromJuly 18, Betfair will crank up the controversial premium charges faced by big hitters whose lifetime net profits exceed £250,000, who bet in over 1,000 markets, and whose commission generated is less than 40 per cent of their lifetime gross profit.

Betfair introduced the premium charge in September 2008 at 20 per cent, claiming it would cover costs incurred in providing the most successful punters with the platform to profit - the majority of which comes through trading and in-running punting.

At the present level, Betfair, who believe only 0.1 per cent of their 3.8 million registered users will be affected, claim to break even on the highly profitable users, but state that profits from elsewhere are ploughed into improving the site to meet levels of trading from big punters and advertising to attract new customers to maintain liquidity in the markets.

A spokesman said: “Betfair believes that the implementation of the adjusted charge will provide the business with fair compensation for the service it provides to those impacted customers, who currently pay a rate of commissions and charges that does not reflect the benefit they gain from the Betfair ecosystem.

“We have evolved our pricing model to ensure we have a fair pricing structure for all of our customers, over 99.9% of whom are not affected by this adjustment.

“Since inception we have provided customers with a unique and innovative product that has consistently offered them, on average, the best value on the market. This is still very much the case and we’re committed to ensuring that it remains the case for years to come.”

Betfair shares closed on Tuesday at 771.5p, an increase on Monday's final price of 726.5p. Betfair’s preliminary results for the year ended April 30 will be published on Wednesday.

No word from betfair on the subject of rebates.

A suggested new rebate method.

After each market they update your lifetime profit, commission generated and deduct / rebate an amount such that your total pc paid is up to date. In order to combat evasion (e.g. losing all your profits to a non-pc account to get a large rebate) they could make the maximum rebate per market equal to the average commission paid per market over the lifetime of your account. That would mean if you'd paid 15K in pc's and your average commission paid per market was £5 you'd have to lose in 3,000 markets to get that 15K back. That would give betfair more than enough time to close the account if they think someone's at it.

When you think about it, had they done this in the first place they might have escaped a lot of the flak the pc brought on them. Having a lump deducted on a Wednesday probably magnified the bad feeling about the charge several times over. The fact betfair never even considered this effect shows how out of touch their ex-city boys are with the realities of dealing with ordinary punters.

If someone was at it they would lose before getting back to their profitable ways.

It's an option I hadn't thought of before, but paying £500 commission
to get a £10K loss on your account seems quite attractive.

Correct JML. When the original pc came out there was a discussion about one account betting another a large sum and you'd then use the losing account.

ttt for ballabriggs.

Still no word from betscvm.