General Betting
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I hesitate before starting a thread like this, but I posted something similar when my Betfair account hit £100k and it was interesting to hear the views of other long-term punters. It's also good practice to pause and reflect on your gambling from time to time, and this seems like an opportune moment.
I began betting seriously in January 2004. Prior to that, I'd used my Betfair account to experiment with and to have fun with. But I realised that I could make decent profit from what I was doing and wanted to pit my wits against other punters.
My profit figures since then have been:
2004 20,003.81
2005 31,407.24
2006 52,316.70
2007 45,490.42
2008 10,656.92
2009 14,042.02
2010 7,248.54
2011 19,000.00 (approximately, so far)
I bet part-time. I'm lucky to have a day job that allows me flexibility. I can work mornings/evenings/weekends and spend a fair chunk of the afternoon here. My day job has nothing to do with sport or gambling and that's a huge benefit. The contrast is perfect.
When I first started, my approach was to find as many edges as possible. I'd bet on several sports in several ways. However, close inspection of my records showed that only one kind of betting, based around certain horse racing markets, was consistently profitable. I therefore took the view that exploiting one edge in a systematic way was preferable to constantly searching for lots of betting opportunities. Sometimes I see clear value on non-racing markets, but I don't take it. I make enough from what I do.
I built my own bank before I started. Just a few thousand pounds in case I got off to a bad start. These days I keep about £15k to hand to cover a losing run.
Naturally, you need discipline to make this game work. But after a while discipline becomes habit. I used to take the view that having nine or ten profit-making months per year was fine, but then I realised that this kind of thinking was making me complacent. I now do all I can to finish every month in profit, and this month will (hopefully) be my 11th consecutive profit-making one.
Some days, you do everything right, and are happy with all of your bets, and still lose. They're the hardest days. You have no-one to blame and no guarantee that the same thing won't happen again tomorrow.
I'm a layer. I take views on how horses will perform and try to lay at the lowest possible price. I have no interest in inside information. Forming my own opinion is part of the pleasure.
Occasionally, I get hit by a well-organised, well-executed coup. It's a hazard of the game. But plenty of gambles go astray too.
It's not the money that motivates me. My profits have gone mostly into mortgage over-payments. I support several charities and am closely involved with local politics. I drive a cheap, second-hand car and take my holidays in Wales. I'd hate to be gambling to fund a lifestyle.
The best analogy I have is probably with a computer game. I want to beat my previous record and accumulate as many points as possible. The profit is a nice bonus - I don't need to fear redundancy; I may be able to retire early - but that's not what drives me.
Trying to stay focused, long-term, can be tricky. It helps that I love horse racing and would happily follow the sport without any vested interest at all. I make sure I take my annual holiday entitlement from Betfair and usually have a long break after a particularly good or bad run.
Experience is great tutor, if only you allow it to be. Instinct tells you to forget all about your bad days, but it's only by analysing your mistakes that you avoid repeating them.
I know other punters make more than me, and I know that I could make more by going full-time or by raising my stakes. But I also know that many more punters make much less, and that some are chronic loss-makers. I often worry where my profit has come from, and whether the person who's lost can afford it.
Gambling is a socially useless activity, and long-term, high-stakes betting can suck the soul from your eyes. You need other things going on, other loves. Success won't satisfy you, but if you're satisfied already the success comes more easily.
Sorry to pontificate like a bad Dalai Lama. There are lots of ways to make profit at gambling, and many approaches will be much better than the one I have. If I make it to £300k, I'll be back to annoy you again.
I began betting seriously in January 2004. Prior to that, I'd used my Betfair account to experiment with and to have fun with. But I realised that I could make decent profit from what I was doing and wanted to pit my wits against other punters.
My profit figures since then have been:
2004 20,003.81
2005 31,407.24
2006 52,316.70
2007 45,490.42
2008 10,656.92
2009 14,042.02
2010 7,248.54
2011 19,000.00 (approximately, so far)
I bet part-time. I'm lucky to have a day job that allows me flexibility. I can work mornings/evenings/weekends and spend a fair chunk of the afternoon here. My day job has nothing to do with sport or gambling and that's a huge benefit. The contrast is perfect.
When I first started, my approach was to find as many edges as possible. I'd bet on several sports in several ways. However, close inspection of my records showed that only one kind of betting, based around certain horse racing markets, was consistently profitable. I therefore took the view that exploiting one edge in a systematic way was preferable to constantly searching for lots of betting opportunities. Sometimes I see clear value on non-racing markets, but I don't take it. I make enough from what I do.
I built my own bank before I started. Just a few thousand pounds in case I got off to a bad start. These days I keep about £15k to hand to cover a losing run.
Naturally, you need discipline to make this game work. But after a while discipline becomes habit. I used to take the view that having nine or ten profit-making months per year was fine, but then I realised that this kind of thinking was making me complacent. I now do all I can to finish every month in profit, and this month will (hopefully) be my 11th consecutive profit-making one.
Some days, you do everything right, and are happy with all of your bets, and still lose. They're the hardest days. You have no-one to blame and no guarantee that the same thing won't happen again tomorrow.
I'm a layer. I take views on how horses will perform and try to lay at the lowest possible price. I have no interest in inside information. Forming my own opinion is part of the pleasure.
Occasionally, I get hit by a well-organised, well-executed coup. It's a hazard of the game. But plenty of gambles go astray too.
It's not the money that motivates me. My profits have gone mostly into mortgage over-payments. I support several charities and am closely involved with local politics. I drive a cheap, second-hand car and take my holidays in Wales. I'd hate to be gambling to fund a lifestyle.
The best analogy I have is probably with a computer game. I want to beat my previous record and accumulate as many points as possible. The profit is a nice bonus - I don't need to fear redundancy; I may be able to retire early - but that's not what drives me.
Trying to stay focused, long-term, can be tricky. It helps that I love horse racing and would happily follow the sport without any vested interest at all. I make sure I take my annual holiday entitlement from Betfair and usually have a long break after a particularly good or bad run.
Experience is great tutor, if only you allow it to be. Instinct tells you to forget all about your bad days, but it's only by analysing your mistakes that you avoid repeating them.
I know other punters make more than me, and I know that I could make more by going full-time or by raising my stakes. But I also know that many more punters make much less, and that some are chronic loss-makers. I often worry where my profit has come from, and whether the person who's lost can afford it.
Gambling is a socially useless activity, and long-term, high-stakes betting can suck the soul from your eyes. You need other things going on, other loves. Success won't satisfy you, but if you're satisfied already the success comes more easily.
Sorry to pontificate like a bad Dalai Lama. There are lots of ways to make profit at gambling, and many approaches will be much better than the one I have. If I make it to £300k, I'll be back to annoy you again.
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cpfc4me, fair enough, but Dr J obviuosly has an edge. Personally I would use it to greater effect. Having said that, I've no doubt our circumstances are different. I never make any fancy claims but I've never worked since joining Betfair, (and a good few years before that to). I'm not on benefits or anything illegal, but I do have another income that gives me a decent standard of living. Any profits from punting are a welcome bonus.
I said I wasn't interested about the profitability of strangers. I am interested in their views.
The title of the thread is pretty self-explanatory, GGL - why click on it?
What I can gather from thisa thread is that Dr J has no intention of going full time, and is reluctant to disscuss the the thought of packing in his job. That's his right, but I do ask myself, for what reason? Maybe he's on 200K per annum and wants security. Nothing wrong with that, but what if the £1,000,000 thread eventually appears?? Anyways, it's his own private buisness.
cpfc4me makes the key points - it's less stressful to bet part-time and that kind of work/betting balance suits some people better than being full-time.
My job pays nothing like £200k per year, but I enjoy it greatly and simply prefer to keep gambling as a hobby rather than a career. It's also worth remembering that conditions could change very easily and very quickly. What if Betfair raise their commission levels, or change the threshold at which the PC applies? I don't have any alternative (non-Betfair) edges to fall back on.
What I can gather from thisa thread is that Dr J has no intention of going full time, and is reluctant to disscuss the the thought of packing in his job. That's his right, but I do ask myself, for what reason? Maybe he's on 200K per annum and wants security. Nothing wrong with that, but what if the £1,000,000 thread eventually appears?? Anyways, it's his own private buisness.
cpfc4me makes the key points - it's less stressful to bet part-time and that kind of work/betting balance suits some people better than being full-time.
My job pays nothing like £200k per year, but I enjoy it greatly and simply prefer to keep gambling as a hobby rather than a career. It's also worth remembering that conditions could change very easily and very quickly. What if Betfair raise their commission levels, or change the threshold at which the PC applies? I don't have any alternative (non-Betfair) edges to fall back on.
Gerry, just in case you missed my earlier post, I am wonderful too ;)
And I think you are in a minority as this thread proves, people on here are fascinated to hear about other user's profitability and what they have been through to achieve it. I am, I think it's a great thread and Dr J, if anything, is a little on the humble side considering his achievement.
In hindsight you are right, I probably shouldn't have clicked on it. I was half expecting a person on here full time maybe suggesting that it wasn't worth it or that it has had a negative impact on their life.
I am very interested how some people find it harder and harder to win money on here as mug money disappears etc. Conditions have changed greatly in the the last 7 years and some people will now find it not worthwhile and have to get a job.
But I was disappointed. I was surprised to hear you "enjoy your job greatly" btw.
I am very interested how some people find it harder and harder to win money on here as mug money disappears etc. Conditions have changed greatly in the the last 7 years and some people will now find it not worthwhile and have to get a job.
But I was disappointed. I was surprised to hear you "enjoy your job greatly" btw.
Some people clearly are fascinated and therefore this thread is clearly a good one. I accept that but I can't understand it.
However, in replying to this thread with interest certainly does not mean you are in the majority of people. You may be in the majority of gamblers. Most of those are not like myself.
However, in replying to this thread with interest certainly does not mean you are in the majority of people. You may be in the majority of gamblers. Most of those are not like myself.
GGL - you appear to be a LAY person.........................therefore as a person more interested in BACKING..................I view your opinion as not of "interest" in any way what so ever!
LAYERS are the "enemy"!....................You appear to just another layer.............run of mill person!
Apparently the OT is also same .......so well done...........as LAYING ain't easy!......However BACKING is where the knowledgeable ones re horse racing are.........and they ( not me ....YET!) are the ones who are superior to layers !
LAYERS are the "enemy"!....................You appear to just another layer.............run of mill person!
Apparently the OT is also same .......so well done...........as LAYING ain't easy!......However BACKING is where the knowledgeable ones re horse racing are.........and they ( not me ....YET!) are the ones who are superior to layers !
It's having an edge that makes you 'superior', not how you apply that edge.
Some may like to back heads, others prefer to lay tails. There's no difference.
Some may like to back heads, others prefer to lay tails. There's no difference.
I am very interested how some people find it harder and harder to win money on here as mug money disappears etc.
Edges dry up in gambling, it's always been a rather annoying fact as long as I've been doing it (1993 ish).
As far as I can see there are two real options (and various combinations of both)
1) Absolutely hammer your current edge while you can.
There are some downsides to this in a lot of cases. One of the best fruit machine bugs of our time was good for about £1000 a week in each casino in the country until one kid got greedy and decided to batter one machine for £13k in a day. Cue instant recall of chips.
Sometimes there just isn't the liquidity to hammer the edge, and sometimes hammering the edge would alert the market makers to the fact that it exists.
2) Work on the next big thing while you're doing what you're currently doing.
As said previously, I can't emphasise enough how certain it is that your current edge will either vanish or diminish severely. There's always someone out there as clever as you are and with more motivation - no matter how clever or motivated you believe you are.
Start work on finding what you're going to do next, now.
Sometimes finding that new thing will mean you can do both your current thing and the new thing at the same time but however you choose to use it, it's great for the peace of mind to know you're still unearthing new stuff.
Edges dry up in gambling, it's always been a rather annoying fact as long as I've been doing it (1993 ish).
As far as I can see there are two real options (and various combinations of both)
1) Absolutely hammer your current edge while you can.
There are some downsides to this in a lot of cases. One of the best fruit machine bugs of our time was good for about £1000 a week in each casino in the country until one kid got greedy and decided to batter one machine for £13k in a day. Cue instant recall of chips.
Sometimes there just isn't the liquidity to hammer the edge, and sometimes hammering the edge would alert the market makers to the fact that it exists.
2) Work on the next big thing while you're doing what you're currently doing.
As said previously, I can't emphasise enough how certain it is that your current edge will either vanish or diminish severely. There's always someone out there as clever as you are and with more motivation - no matter how clever or motivated you believe you are.
Start work on finding what you're going to do next, now.
Sometimes finding that new thing will mean you can do both your current thing and the new thing at the same time but however you choose to use it, it's great for the peace of mind to know you're still unearthing new stuff.
Gerry Gows Lad
24 May 11 19:43 Joined: 29 May 01
However, in replying to this thread with interest certainly does not mean you are in the majority of people
Point taken, Gerry, poor wording on my part.
24 May 11 19:43 Joined: 29 May 01
However, in replying to this thread with interest certainly does not mean you are in the majority of people
Point taken, Gerry, poor wording on my part.
Any premium charge this week Dr J. I just paid £306
My lifetime profile stands at 26.85% so I'm safe from the PC for the time being.
The sums you, The Investor and some of the other long-termers pay do seem scary though. How do you cope psychologically? Do you try to see the PC as a badge of honour, a tax on your success? Or do you take steps to avoid it at all costs (if such steps exist)?
My lifetime profile stands at 26.85% so I'm safe from the PC for the time being.
The sums you, The Investor and some of the other long-termers pay do seem scary though. How do you cope psychologically? Do you try to see the PC as a badge of honour, a tax on your success? Or do you take steps to avoid it at all costs (if such steps exist)?
My lifetime profile stands at 26.85% so I'm safe from the PC for the time being.
Dr J, their lifetime profile is less than 26.85%. i.e. they are paying less than you. Why should that cause them psychological harm?
Dr J, their lifetime profile is less than 26.85%. i.e. they are paying less than you. Why should that cause them psychological harm?
Gerry Gows Lad
I said I wasn't interested about the profitability of strangers. I am interested in their views.
Surely profitability is the most important factor when deciding whether to listen to someones views?
Enough posters will talk the talk but their account doesnt match their online betting guru persona.
Your opening post questions his lack of awareness/figures irrelevant but without any numbers nobody would have any awareness of the point of the thread.
I said I wasn't interested about the profitability of strangers. I am interested in their views.
Surely profitability is the most important factor when deciding whether to listen to someones views?
Enough posters will talk the talk but their account doesnt match their online betting guru persona.
Your opening post questions his lack of awareness/figures irrelevant but without any numbers nobody would have any awareness of the point of the thread.
If Dr J's profit is x then 27% of x is more than 22.5% of x Lori.
My point about psychology was this: it must feel odd to make profit from betting then face a charge for doing so. I'd feel like my value was being eroded, and that could mess with my head. I was just wondering what strategies people have to cope with the PC.
I certainly wasn't implying that those people are paying any more than me in real terms. It's just that I can blame myself when I lose, but they must be tempted to blame Betfair for their PC deductions.
I'm sure these discussions have been had elsewhere though - I'll read some other threads on the topic later.
I certainly wasn't implying that those people are paying any more than me in real terms. It's just that I can blame myself when I lose, but they must be tempted to blame Betfair for their PC deductions.
I'm sure these discussions have been had elsewhere though - I'll read some other threads on the topic later.
It's not really a relevant figure though is it Feck. Most people don't make a profit so measuring commission based on lifetime profit is ridiculous anyway. The losers should have to pay some as well.
im still stunned that none of the fawning masses have broached the PC question.
It's not really a relevant figure though is it Feck.
It's more relevant than your figures Lori. A forum newbie who was up 60K net might end up apologising for only having paid 40K commission to someone up 77.5K net having paid 22.5K commission if he took these pc calimero threads at face value.
It's more relevant than your figures Lori. A forum newbie who was up 60K net might end up apologising for only having paid 40K commission to someone up 77.5K net having paid 22.5K commission if he took these pc calimero threads at face value.
im still stunned that none of the fawning masses have broached the PC question.
What exactly bothers you about the fact I've never paid the PC?
What exactly bothers you about the fact I've never paid the PC?
Why do you think that it's a relevant figure Feck?
I've never understood why you believe that percentage of winnings to date is a fairer way to pay commission than a simple percentage of turnover.
I don't think it's fair that losers don't pay anything, surely they're clogging up the system as much as anyone else.
I've never understood why you believe that percentage of winnings to date is a fairer way to pay commission than a simple percentage of turnover.
I don't think it's fair that losers don't pay anything, surely they're clogging up the system as much as anyone else.
I've never understood why you believe that percentage of winnings to date is a fairer way to pay commission than a simple percentage of turnover.
I'm not saying it would be betfair's best option or that it's the fairest. The pc calimeros though think what I've typed below is "a level playing field" despite the fact they've "clogged up the system" equally.
Under the old system if you had 100 backs at 1.1 and they all won and I had 100 backs at 110.0 and one won, we'd both have the same turnover and gross profit but I'd be expected to pay up to 11 times the commission you would.
I'm not saying it would be betfair's best option or that it's the fairest. The pc calimeros though think what I've typed below is "a level playing field" despite the fact they've "clogged up the system" equally.
Under the old system if you had 100 backs at 1.1 and they all won and I had 100 backs at 110.0 and one won, we'd both have the same turnover and gross profit but I'd be expected to pay up to 11 times the commission you would.
I don't quite follow your point here.
Clearly that's agreeing that winnings are irrelevant which I didn't think was your position.
Paying a percentage on turnover would be fair under that statement.
Clearly that's agreeing that winnings are irrelevant which I didn't think was your position.
Paying a percentage on turnover would be fair under that statement.
I don't follow your point Lori. I've never advocated bf switch to a commission system based purely on lifetime profit. It would have to be so high they'd be committing suicide. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong in using percentage of lifetime profit as a basis for examining the fairness of a system. Particularly when there are clowns who describe a system where two people turn over the same number of bets, stakes and profits but pay commission in the ratio 11:1 as a "level playing field".
As far as turnover goes, there's a problem. e.g. If it was x% on turnover then you can't possibly win on anything less than just short of 1.0x. Percentage of profit on each BET might be more appropriate.
As far as turnover goes, there's a problem. e.g. If it was x% on turnover then you can't possibly win on anything less than just short of 1.0x. Percentage of profit on each BET might be more appropriate.
Turnover works just fine at the other place.
You take 1% (or whatever) of the lowest figure, so if you back 100 at 1.01, you only pay 1p commission 100 at evens is £1. The layer would also pay 1p
The numbers can be faddled with a bit of course if those 1ps didn't add up enough (It's £1 on an evens shot though), they could have different bands per price.
Taking money from someone because of their historical results however is not much fun. I only pay PC occasionally these days, but it does mean that I'm careful not to bet too big and find myself winning enough in one go to end up back in PC territory. It's happened twice this year and frankly doesn't seem very fair when you back a 50/1 winner and have to give 20% of it back the next week for being lucky enough to back a winning longshot.
You take 1% (or whatever) of the lowest figure, so if you back 100 at 1.01, you only pay 1p commission 100 at evens is £1. The layer would also pay 1p
The numbers can be faddled with a bit of course if those 1ps didn't add up enough (It's £1 on an evens shot though), they could have different bands per price.
Taking money from someone because of their historical results however is not much fun. I only pay PC occasionally these days, but it does mean that I'm careful not to bet too big and find myself winning enough in one go to end up back in PC territory. It's happened twice this year and frankly doesn't seem very fair when you back a 50/1 winner and have to give 20% of it back the next week for being lucky enough to back a winning longshot.
How's it going Feck? Are you all set up for the forthcoming flat in june?
I'm not set up yet stewarty but I'm not even sure I'll bother any more. They don't want you to bet.
I know the feeling Feck. I haven't had a bet since the the 18th of march, although I've picked out many winners since, (natuarlly). I can't complain too much as with the last 14 months profits from punting, (not all BF) I've managed to get a new fitted kitchen, bathroom, and an 'Italian' leather suite. Also I paid off the shortfall on my endownment for my mortgage. If you think the banks are bad, these insurance companies are parasites sucking the blood from parasites.
Having said that, febuary and march this year have been the most suicidal run I've ever had. I'm to embarressed to tell you how many losers I backed in a row. If I had personal contact with you and shared it, you would shake your head in disbelive.
In my defence, there was one particular day I backed 9 in a row due to getting 'involved' in the pub with a few friends and having too much to drink.
I may start up again mid june and see how things pan out, and I may have a monkey on a beast in the Derby that I fancy. (not the FAV)
Anywats Feck, all the best if you do decide to get up and running again, and if you do, let me know if you got that **K back.
Having said that, febuary and march this year have been the most suicidal run I've ever had. I'm to embarressed to tell you how many losers I backed in a row. If I had personal contact with you and shared it, you would shake your head in disbelive.
In my defence, there was one particular day I backed 9 in a row due to getting 'involved' in the pub with a few friends and having too much to drink.
I may start up again mid june and see how things pan out, and I may have a monkey on a beast in the Derby that I fancy. (not the FAV)
Anywats Feck, all the best if you do decide to get up and running again, and if you do, let me know if you got that **K back.
I was just wondering what strategies people have to cope with the PC.
Coming on here and whinging about it from time to time is the only real strategy there is for me.
There's no way I can get anywhere near 20%.
Most winning weeks I'm under 5% and I have very few losing ones.
After a good Eurovision and American Idol I'm on course to beat last years profit again, so can't complain too much.
I do feel it damages befair though.
Online Poker sites encourage and reward winners.
Betfair seem intent on punishing them.
Coming on here and whinging about it from time to time is the only real strategy there is for me.
There's no way I can get anywhere near 20%.
Most winning weeks I'm under 5% and I have very few losing ones.
After a good Eurovision and American Idol I'm on course to beat last years profit again, so can't complain too much.
I do feel it damages befair though.
Online Poker sites encourage and reward winners.
Betfair seem intent on punishing them.
You can win £,10,000,000 on BF every year and never pay the PC charge. Not a lot of punters know that.
You can win £,10,000,000 on BF every year and never pay the PC charge. Not a lot of punters know that.
You just have to lose 9 million too
You just have to lose 9 million too
'You just have to lose 9 million too '
Wrong. I stand by my original post.
Wrong. I stand by my original post.
Dr J, paying the premium charge really messes my head and your right pyscologically it does really bother me. I had a big winning week so rarely pay that much. I would rather be profitable and have to pay it rather than struggle and win nothing in the week. It has to go down as the most horrible invention I have ever come across.
In order to win £ 10 million and not pay PC you would at least need to have roughly £ 87 millions in winnings and £ 75.26 millions in losses.
Do you agree to that stewarty b ?
Do you agree to that stewarty b ?
I make it about 55m won and 45m lost, although sadly it has been a long time since I did my o-levels.
I don't think you will be on 5 % commission if you net £ 10 million !
Implied commission is always 3 % and don't forget to divide both paid and implied by 2.
No Eddie I don't agree with that. You can have 40 £250,000 winning bets at evens which will not put you anywhere near paying the PC charge. Albeit you'd have to be very lucky, but it is possible. As you probably know, you have to have a certain amount of bets before you're liable for the charge. (at least that was in the rules when it first started)
Anywats Feck, all the best if you do decide to get up and running again, and if you do, let me know if you got that **K back.
Will do stewarty.
Will do stewarty.
stewarty b Joined: 02 Aug 02
Replies: 1852 26 May 11 15:14
No Eddie I don't agree with that. You can have 40 £250,000 winning bets at evens which will not put you anywhere near paying the PC charge. Albeit you'd have to be very lucky, but it is possible. As you probably know, you have to have a certain amount of bets before you're liable for the charge. (at least that was in the rules when it first started)
Now, why didn't all PC-payers think of that !!!
But what are they supposed to do in year 7 when they reach the 250 markets treshold ? Stop betting or just pay the charge ?
Or what if you had reached 250 markets long before PC was implemented ?
Replies: 1852 26 May 11 15:14
No Eddie I don't agree with that. You can have 40 £250,000 winning bets at evens which will not put you anywhere near paying the PC charge. Albeit you'd have to be very lucky, but it is possible. As you probably know, you have to have a certain amount of bets before you're liable for the charge. (at least that was in the rules when it first started)
Now, why didn't all PC-payers think of that !!!
But what are they supposed to do in year 7 when they reach the 250 markets treshold ? Stop betting or just pay the charge ?
Or what if you had reached 250 markets long before PC was implemented ?
'But what are they supposed to do in year 7 when they reach the 250 markets treshold ? Stop betting or just pay the charge ?'
With £60,000,000 in your the sky rocket, yes. (hypothetically of course)
With £60,000,000 in your the sky rocket, yes. (hypothetically of course)
'Or what if you had reached 250 markets long before PC was implemented ? '
As far as I'm aware, the 250 markets was introduced at the same time as the PC was.
As far as I'm aware, the 250 markets was introduced at the same time as the PC was.
It was 250 a year when the PC was introduced.
They changed it getting on for 2 years ago to 250 markets over he lifetinme of the account.
This is what caught me and many others who specialise in a small number of markets.
They changed it getting on for 2 years ago to 250 markets over he lifetinme of the account.
This is what caught me and many others who specialise in a small number of markets.
How low can they sink. I've lost count of the times they've moved the goalposts on the PC charge. Shameful.
Hows it going Dr J?
£4.5k profit in May; June started well.
Thanks for asking.
£4.5k profit in May; June started well.
Thanks for asking.
My May figures.
Boxing: -£14.21 | Darts: £0.52 | Gaelic Games: £22.97 | Golf: £100.99 | Greyhound Racing: £74.80 | Horse Racing: £4,145.84 | Rugby Union: £3.78 | Snooker: -£51.07 | Soccer: £73.24 | Special Bets: -£26.68 | Tennis: £2.87 | Tote: | Total P&L: £4,333.05
Your still outperforming me [:p]
Boxing: -£14.21 | Darts: £0.52 | Gaelic Games: £22.97 | Golf: £100.99 | Greyhound Racing: £74.80 | Horse Racing: £4,145.84 | Rugby Union: £3.78 | Snooker: -£51.07 | Soccer: £73.24 | Special Bets: -£26.68 | Tennis: £2.87 | Tote: | Total P&L: £4,333.05
Your still outperforming me [:p]
After the Premium Charge those figures would be down to around £3400 Mordin?
which is very unlikely but even if he is you're calculation falls somewhere between wrong and extremely wrong
Excellant thread well done Dr j I will be asking some questions over the next few days. At the moment I'm on a really bad run, hoping to turn it around a little today.
Hi Marky Sparky. I paid about £400 premium charge on that i dont calculate it too accurately as it would annoy me. I see you jointed Betfair 3 days before me back in 2001!! Nearly our 10th anniversary.
Hi Mordin - yep, guess we've been here a while now. My account got transferred from Flutter though.
Not sure why Catflappo would think you weren't paying the Premium Charge. Guess he was wrong.
Not sure why Catflappo would think you weren't paying the Premium Charge. Guess he was wrong.
It's also worth remembering that conditions could change very easily and very quickly. What if Betfair raise their commission levels, or change the threshold at which the PC applies?
I knew I shouldn't have tempted fate like that...
As I've mentioned above, I've never been asked to pay a penny in PC. However, the new rules rules means that if I'm lucky enough to hit the £250k
mark (at current rates this would happen in one year's time), I'll be charged at 40%.
This isn't a whinge. I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for a gambler who's made a quarter mill. However, it does exemplify why Betfair are wrong to pursue this policy, and it demonstrates how they'll forfeit both business and liquidity.
As the moment, for every £1 I make in profit, I generate 27p in commission for Befair. From next year, Betfair will demand I generate 40p and dip into my account to make up the shortfall. As I result, I'll either switch to an alternative exchange (I don't know how practical that is in terms of liquidity) or quit laying altogether. Either way, Betfair will lose both my comission and my contribution to seeding and sustaining the racing markets.
What's worse for Betfair, because I know what's coming, I've made an immediate decision to slow down my betting and focus more on other things in life. The radically higher charges are too big a deterrent to me. I'll be having more non-punting days and will be happy to creep up the £250k threshold at a much slower rate. This is bad for Betfair's business too.
Some people refer to the PC as a tax, but I would be much more sympathetic to the charge if it was being directed towards building new schools and hospitals. The fact that it's going to the shareholders and board members of an off-shore company only reinforces my decision.
Presumably, other punters will, like me, see their PC charges rise from 0% to 40% simply because an arbitrary threshold has been reached. I'd be amazed if anyone in this situation continues to bet in the same way. It would be like laying at 9-2 where you previously laying at 7-2 (sorry if the maths is inperfect there, but the principle is what's important). Betfair has enhanced my life considerably over the last decade and I feel saddened that it's taking a decision that effectively closes my account.
I'd be most interested to hear the views of this thread's other contributors.
I knew I shouldn't have tempted fate like that...
As I've mentioned above, I've never been asked to pay a penny in PC. However, the new rules rules means that if I'm lucky enough to hit the £250k
mark (at current rates this would happen in one year's time), I'll be charged at 40%.
This isn't a whinge. I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for a gambler who's made a quarter mill. However, it does exemplify why Betfair are wrong to pursue this policy, and it demonstrates how they'll forfeit both business and liquidity.
As the moment, for every £1 I make in profit, I generate 27p in commission for Befair. From next year, Betfair will demand I generate 40p and dip into my account to make up the shortfall. As I result, I'll either switch to an alternative exchange (I don't know how practical that is in terms of liquidity) or quit laying altogether. Either way, Betfair will lose both my comission and my contribution to seeding and sustaining the racing markets.
What's worse for Betfair, because I know what's coming, I've made an immediate decision to slow down my betting and focus more on other things in life. The radically higher charges are too big a deterrent to me. I'll be having more non-punting days and will be happy to creep up the £250k threshold at a much slower rate. This is bad for Betfair's business too.
Some people refer to the PC as a tax, but I would be much more sympathetic to the charge if it was being directed towards building new schools and hospitals. The fact that it's going to the shareholders and board members of an off-shore company only reinforces my decision.
Presumably, other punters will, like me, see their PC charges rise from 0% to 40% simply because an arbitrary threshold has been reached. I'd be amazed if anyone in this situation continues to bet in the same way. It would be like laying at 9-2 where you previously laying at 7-2 (sorry if the maths is inperfect there, but the principle is what's important). Betfair has enhanced my life considerably over the last decade and I feel saddened that it's taking a decision that effectively closes my account.
I'd be most interested to hear the views of this thread's other contributors.
What's worse for Betfair, because I know what's coming, I've made an immediate decision to slow down my betting and focus more on other things in life. The radically higher charges are too big a deterrent to me. I'll be having more non-punting days and will be happy to creep up the £250k threshold at a much slower rate. This is bad for Betfair's business too.
Spot on! Everyone reading about the new charges is either now contemplating life without Betfair or thinking of ways where they won't have to pay. Either way it's a lose-lose situation for a company that had huge customer loyalty and market awareness just a few years ago.
Spot on! Everyone reading about the new charges is either now contemplating life without Betfair or thinking of ways where they won't have to pay. Either way it's a lose-lose situation for a company that had huge customer loyalty and market awareness just a few years ago.
I trust Betfair are in the position to see who are the big winners on here and how they win! Maybe this small number of users will be happy to have 40% of their significant winnings skimmed off. However there will be others like Dr J who have worked hard over 10 years and are getting close to £250,000K who dont deserve to be hit with such a charge.
Just shows how quickly things can change.Unfortunately,it is inevitable that further restrictions on winners will come in as time goes by.Anyone using betfair as a business needs to think again-certainly can't plan ahead.My sympathy Dr J.At least you are only part-time.On the positive side at least you accumulated a reasonable sum.Best of luck.
Just shows how quickly things can change.Unfortunately,it is inevitable that further restrictions on winners will come in as time goes by.Anyone using betfair as a business needs to think again-certainly can't plan ahead.My sympathy Dr J.At least you are only part-time.On the positive side at least you accumulated a reasonable sum.Best of luck.
Nothing has changed
1) He's never paid the Premium Charge
2) He's not at £250k yet, so there is still room to manoeuvre if necessary
1) He's never paid the Premium Charge
2) He's not at £250k yet, so there is still room to manoeuvre if necessary
Dr J, by the time you reach 250k you will probably have a further buffer before you have to pay because your lifetime rate will be over 40%. So there's probably a good deal of money to be made yet if you see it through until the charge actually kicks in. Wh knows, things maybe different then...
The only thing that will be different then if The PC has not been further increased is that a raft of other charges will have been brought in such as account keeping fee, withdrawal fee, calling help desk fee etc etc
catfloppo, why do you assume he will be over 40 % when he reaches 250 k when he is at 25 - 27 % when at 200 k ?
Because the figure that's used is the percentage that would have been paid had he been paying 40% pc over the lifetime of his account.
That depends, angelo. If the many people on here who think this is a bad business decision are right then we could assume betfair will change it back again or at least modify it in some way.
But wont that just take him up to 40 % so that he'll be liable for PC from day 1 once he reaches 250 k ?
Not if it's calculated the way mine has been. They simulate the actual charges that would have been paid and, as you well know :p, losing weeks cause the actual rate paid to be somewhere above the threshold.
My lifetime stands at 33.9%, for example, yet my 'new pc' rate is 43.4%.
My lifetime stands at 33.9%, for example, yet my 'new pc' rate is 43.4%.
I haven't got access to the new portal so wouldn't know, but with total charges less than 40 % at the moment, I would think one would be @ 40 % in this new simulated scanario as well unless one have had a losing period lately or at least having a period where one has generated charges of more than 40 % ?
Thinking more about this i think it can be like you have described for people who actually have paid PC in the past when the threshold was 20 %, but in DJ's (or any others) case wher you are below 40 %, but has never paid PC , I would think this simulation would only take you up to 40 %.
I wouldn't bet my life on it though
I wouldn't bet my life on it though
No one is on exactly 40% to start with, everyone has a buffer.
do you think this topic gave betfair the idea of the new tax
Dr J, you seem to talk like you will suddenly be getting taxed 40% of your winnings? Reality says only around 13%, so if you make 35k, you still make 30+. Sounds like a pretty expensive protest.
While the charge disgusts me, those at around 30% have the best of a very bad deal, at the very least...
While the charge disgusts me, those at around 30% have the best of a very bad deal, at the very least...
Doesn't work like that BJT.
Let's say he keep on winning and paying on average 27 % in commission and let's also say he is on 4 % commission.
If he's gross profit in a year is 50 k, he has paid 13.5 k in commission , making his profit 36.5 k. Here you assume he will "just" have to pay another 13 % of that net profit, but that is very wrong.
On his way to winning these 36.5 k he has had a total of 337.5 k in winnings and 287.5 k in losses. These losses will have earned him 8.625 in implied commission.
His commission generated will therefore be 11.062,5 or 22.125 % of his gross profit.
Betfair will want another 17,875 % from him, not from his net profit, but from his gross profit of 50 k.
That will be £ 8.937,5 to pay in Premium Charge.
You said he would have to pay 13 % of his net profit in Premium Charge, but the fact is that Betfair will tax him 24.49 % on his net profit.
He will in the end have paid a total of £ 22.437,5 in commission and PC.
That is 44,875 % of his gross profit, not the 40 % Betfair want us to believe.
Let's say he keep on winning and paying on average 27 % in commission and let's also say he is on 4 % commission.
If he's gross profit in a year is 50 k, he has paid 13.5 k in commission , making his profit 36.5 k. Here you assume he will "just" have to pay another 13 % of that net profit, but that is very wrong.
On his way to winning these 36.5 k he has had a total of 337.5 k in winnings and 287.5 k in losses. These losses will have earned him 8.625 in implied commission.
His commission generated will therefore be 11.062,5 or 22.125 % of his gross profit.
Betfair will want another 17,875 % from him, not from his net profit, but from his gross profit of 50 k.
That will be £ 8.937,5 to pay in Premium Charge.
You said he would have to pay 13 % of his net profit in Premium Charge, but the fact is that Betfair will tax him 24.49 % on his net profit.
He will in the end have paid a total of £ 22.437,5 in commission and PC.
That is 44,875 % of his gross profit, not the 40 % Betfair want us to believe.
Good post Eddie, I hate challenging your calculations because I usually end up being proved wrong but....
...to demonstrate that BJT is wrong that Dr J will pay 13% pc when his average commission is 27% surely you have to use an example where his commission generated is 27%?
I would also point out though that at 44.8% instead of 40% BJT's point still applies. Of course, we don't know his true figures but it would seem odd for him to stop something that is still profitable unless the time/money ratio is no longer attractive enough.
I wonder if Dr J would consider posting his actual figures so we could do a proper case study?
We could then also take into account the starting buffer which, judging by his betting style, could be significant.
...to demonstrate that BJT is wrong that Dr J will pay 13% pc when his average commission is 27% surely you have to use an example where his commission generated is 27%?
I would also point out though that at 44.8% instead of 40% BJT's point still applies. Of course, we don't know his true figures but it would seem odd for him to stop something that is still profitable unless the time/money ratio is no longer attractive enough.
I wonder if Dr J would consider posting his actual figures so we could do a proper case study?
We could then also take into account the starting buffer which, judging by his betting style, could be significant.
I think DJ has said that he has paid 27 % of his winnings in commission and if that's the case, evrything I've written will be correct. That is if he is on 4 % commission rate, I can't recall he has said anything about his commission rate and the numbers will differ slightly depending on that rate.
And BJT was talking about how much he will be taxed on his profit after normal commission when reaching the 250 k threshold and again, I can't see anything wrong with my numbers
Does the 27% not refer to generated commission? Looking at my PC statement, I can't see anywhere that shows me how much commission I have paid, only generated commission.
I like your calculations, but surely he isn't paying 27%, but generating it?
I like your calculations, but surely he isn't paying 27%, but generating it?
As the moment, for every £1 I make in profit, I generate 27p in commission for Befair. Quoting the man himself....
some very very clever people on here basically stealing money off clueless punters
BJT, if that's the case the number will be different.
I think he is saying he pays 27 % of his winnings in commission though. I suppose he will be on here later telling us what it is...
I think he is saying he pays 27 % of his winnings in commission though. I suppose he will be on here later telling us what it is...
catfloppo, in my numbers commission generated is 22 %. He will however have paid 27 %.
some very very clever people on here making money legitimately from an innovative system that provides a better value service to clueless punters
I knew it, Eddie [;)]
So, in your example his lifetime commission rate would be 22%
So, in your example his lifetime commission rate would be 22%
Well, I think his use of the word generated is a pretty strong argument suggesting that. I wouldn't even have a clue how much I have paid in commission.
Now in regards to the calculation for generated commission, would you care to explain to me how and why this is worked out the way it is? In particular, /2. Should the formula not be the actual ratio of your wins losses? I know this works out in BFs favour as 2 obviously, but surely it is a false formula that just doesn't add up?
I guess what I am asking, is if you have any opinion on if across every account, the generated commission is equal to the commission that BF has received, as it 100% should.?
Now in regards to the calculation for generated commission, would you care to explain to me how and why this is worked out the way it is? In particular, /2. Should the formula not be the actual ratio of your wins losses? I know this works out in BFs favour as 2 obviously, but surely it is a false formula that just doesn't add up?
I guess what I am asking, is if you have any opinion on if across every account, the generated commission is equal to the commission that BF has received, as it 100% should.?
catfloppo, his lifetime commission generated would be 22 %.
BJT, when someone says they have generated 27 % of their profits in commission to Betfair, it would normally mean that is what they have paid.
Due to all these different numbers regarding PC though, it's aliitle confusing. He may talk about commission generated PC-wise, but I have a feeling that he actually has paid these 27 %.
I'm sure he'll be on here telling us soon..
Due to all these different numbers regarding PC though, it's aliitle confusing. He may talk about commission generated PC-wise, but I have a feeling that he actually has paid these 27 %.
I'm sure he'll be on here telling us soon..
I'm with you now.
I wonder if the good doctor will tell us his actuals? Not just his commission generated but his pc starting rate commission discount etc.
Still seems odd that someone would pull the plug on a system because of something that might happen in the future.
I wonder if the good doctor will tell us his actuals? Not just his commission generated but his pc starting rate commission discount etc.
Still seems odd that someone would pull the plug on a system because of something that might happen in the future.
catfloppo
Date Joined: 16 Nov 06
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Good post Eddie, I hate challenging your calculations because I usually end up being proved wrong but....
...to demonstrate that BJT is wrong that Dr J will pay 13% pc when his average commission is 27% surely you have to use an example where his commission generated is 27%?
I would also point out though that at 44.8% instead of 40% BJT's point still applies. Of course, we don't know his true figures but it would seem odd for him to stop something that is still profitable unless the time/money ratio is no longer attractive enough.
I wonder if Dr J would consider posting his actual figures so we could do a proper case study?
We could then also take into account the starting buffer which, judging by his betting style, could be significant.
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For somoeone like Dr J. who has a job, fairness will also be more of a factor. Some people like him might move simply because they don't feel the equity split is fair.
I remember an interesting psychological experiment where one guy was given $100, and he could split it with another guy in any proportion he wanted. The only thing is that if the other guy rejects, neither of them get them money. If you do a 50/50 split of course the other guy is extremely likely to accept. There comes a point though .. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20... where almost no-one will accept. They will literally reject free money in order to punish the other guy for being so greedy.
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Good post Eddie, I hate challenging your calculations because I usually end up being proved wrong but....
...to demonstrate that BJT is wrong that Dr J will pay 13% pc when his average commission is 27% surely you have to use an example where his commission generated is 27%?
I would also point out though that at 44.8% instead of 40% BJT's point still applies. Of course, we don't know his true figures but it would seem odd for him to stop something that is still profitable unless the time/money ratio is no longer attractive enough.
I wonder if Dr J would consider posting his actual figures so we could do a proper case study?
We could then also take into account the starting buffer which, judging by his betting style, could be significant.
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For somoeone like Dr J. who has a job, fairness will also be more of a factor. Some people like him might move simply because they don't feel the equity split is fair.
I remember an interesting psychological experiment where one guy was given $100, and he could split it with another guy in any proportion he wanted. The only thing is that if the other guy rejects, neither of them get them money. If you do a 50/50 split of course the other guy is extremely likely to accept. There comes a point though .. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20... where almost no-one will accept. They will literally reject free money in order to punish the other guy for being so greedy.
What has also got to be considered is this "44.875" gross profit figure could be a lot worse in reality as Eddie's post is calculated over a YEAR and not on the WEEKLY basis that is currently used for calculation by BF!
My post was with reference to eddie's post earlier (I didn't realise there was an extra page to this thread :S )
Doesn't work like that BJT.
Let's say he keep on winning and paying on average 27 % in commission and let's also say he is on 4 % commission.
If he's gross profit in a year is 50 k, he has paid 13.5 k in commission , making his profit 36.5 k. Here you assume he will "just" have to pay another 13 % of that net profit, but that is very wrong.
On his way to winning these 36.5 k he has had a total of 337.5 k in winnings and 287.5 k in losses. These losses will have earned him 8.625 in implied commission.
His commission generated will therefore be 11.062,5 or 22.125 % of his gross profit.
Betfair will want another 17,875 % from him, not from his net profit, but from his gross profit of 50 k.
That will be £ 8.937,5 to pay in Premium Charge.
You said he would have to pay 13 % of his net profit in Premium Charge, but the fact is that Betfair will tax him 24.49 % on his net profit.
He will in the end have paid a total of £ 22.437,5 in commission and PC.
That is 44,875 % of his gross profit, not the 40 % Betfair want us to believe.
Doesn't work like that BJT.
Let's say he keep on winning and paying on average 27 % in commission and let's also say he is on 4 % commission.
If he's gross profit in a year is 50 k, he has paid 13.5 k in commission , making his profit 36.5 k. Here you assume he will "just" have to pay another 13 % of that net profit, but that is very wrong.
On his way to winning these 36.5 k he has had a total of 337.5 k in winnings and 287.5 k in losses. These losses will have earned him 8.625 in implied commission.
His commission generated will therefore be 11.062,5 or 22.125 % of his gross profit.
Betfair will want another 17,875 % from him, not from his net profit, but from his gross profit of 50 k.
That will be £ 8.937,5 to pay in Premium Charge.
You said he would have to pay 13 % of his net profit in Premium Charge, but the fact is that Betfair will tax him 24.49 % on his net profit.
He will in the end have paid a total of £ 22.437,5 in commission and PC.
That is 44,875 % of his gross profit, not the 40 % Betfair want us to believe.
argh (not having a good day)... what I meant to write was this:
What has also got to be considered is this "44.875%" OF gross profit figure could be a lot worse in reality as Eddie's post is calculated over a YEAR and not on the WEEKLY basis that is currently used for calculation by BF!
What has also got to be considered is this "44.875%" OF gross profit figure could be a lot worse in reality as Eddie's post is calculated over a YEAR and not on the WEEKLY basis that is currently used for calculation by BF!
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