Forums

General Betting

Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
howardisawinker
03 Jan 11 22:37
Joined:
Date Joined: 16 Sep 06
| Topic/replies: 260 | Blogger: howardisawinker's blog
I imagine most people are on here because they dream of making hundreds of thousands a year and living a glamorous lifestyle. The reality is that you spend hours sitting alone at your computer and generally lose a bit of money, but if you did start winning big you would very likely lose it all again.
I think it's a realistic aim for people to make a bit of money on here, but when you look objectively at the amount of work it takes, it's really not worth it - you could be building a proper career, interacting with people, doing interesting things, and making far more money, far more securely!
Having said all that, I'll still be here next year. Might start some 'fun' challenges though, rather than trying to make my fortune.
Pause Switch to Standard View The futility of betting
Show More
Loading...
Report Contrarian January 5, 2011 9:42 PM GMT
If making money is the sole object then, like with most other things in life, it will become rather pointless at some stage, mor eparticularly if you succeed in doing it solely with bots requiring little or no intervention.

FAFH,

Working out (and then programming) profitable bot strategies is the only interesting part of the work for me.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 5, 2011 9:56 PM GMT
Not my point really Contrarian.
As you yourself said, once the models are up and running the challenge is over for you.
But if you're constantly setting yourself new programming challenges, then presumably you will not be bored.
The point is that it's not really about the money for you is it ?
Report U.A. January 5, 2011 9:56 PM GMT
Ultimately because I do win some money. Not a great deal but enough to help make a difference, whilst still being able to be at home. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy what I do, otherwise I wouldn't do it and I understand what you are saying about the challenge. If I found that I couldn't make money or I was losing money then I would quite happily stop. Hmm I wonder how many gamblers have made that last statement only to lapse. Anyway fortunately I don't have to prove that last statement just as people don't have to believe it.

I do enjoy what I do, but if I didn't have to do it or it doesn't make a difference there are other things that I would happily do or try to do instead.
Report RonaldinhoRAT January 5, 2011 10:22 PM GMT
kef4o     05 Jan 11 20:29 
Tctctc, I'm disappointed. I'm alone in this. Money is not the goal. It's the byproduct.

I dont get it. Ivey plays poker for cash/challenge/job but cash is the core reason not a byproduct, no?

Contrarian     05 Jan 11 15:04 
Don't you find, though, that there's not much of an intellectual challenge left,

lucky you, enjoy it 99.99% struggle.

FINE AS FROG HAIR     05 Jan 11 21:11 
If making money is the sole object then, like with most other things in life, it will become rather pointless at some stage,

not pointless, great to earn good money dont get this either.
Report kef4o January 5, 2011 10:41 PM GMT
Ok, about Ivey, he plays craps for fun, and bets lifechanging amounts on it, to the majority of the world at least. Does he do it for money? Does he really have to play as high as he does to maintain the life he has built around himself? He needs to feel it, the buzz of winning. And that's what makes him be the guy that he is. It's his own words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNb2-ZB5Vhw&t=1m8s
Report .Marksman. January 5, 2011 10:42 PM GMT
Why on earth would someone want to quit a good job to do this full time?  If I had a good job to go to, I would switch off my computer and forget all about horse racing.  I wouldn't even watch the Grand National again.  (And as a child, I used to love it, and the local point to point meetings.)
Report kef4o January 5, 2011 10:49 PM GMT
Making more money on a consistent basis, that's usually the truning point.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 5, 2011 11:38 PM GMT
Maksman
The answer is only if you can do it successfully without having to put in boringly long hours of anti-social time commitment.
Obviously most of us can't but apparently some can.
Good luck to them methinks.
Report kenilworth January 5, 2011 11:48 PM GMT
I have to agree with FAFH's last post.
Report elflem January 6, 2011 12:18 AM GMT
"If you think you can, or think you can't, your right"-Henry Ford
Report DaveEdwards January 6, 2011 12:25 AM GMT
elflem knows
Report duncan idaho January 6, 2011 9:53 AM GMT
'Why on earth would someone want to quit a good job to do this full time? '


'Fraid i'm no good at anything else...and i'm not that good at this either Laugh
Report no moves January 7, 2011 12:04 AM GMT
I can't believe there isn't a lot of bvllshit on here.  According to about 90% of the contributors on this thread they seem to be making £1000,0000 on here each. Now there is nobody on here telling porky pies is there, are you sure?
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 7, 2011 12:41 AM GMT
You're just jealous NM.
Get your act together man.
Be positive.
Porky pies?
On the BF forum?
Never in a million.
Report Alex the old wrinkled retainer January 7, 2011 12:47 AM GMT
no moves 07 Jan 11 00:04
I can't believe there isn't a lot of bvllshit on here.  According to about 90% of the contributors on this thread they seem to be making £1000,0000 on here each. Now there is nobody on here telling porky pies is there, are you sure?



Provided I don't take a loss, I am happy.  My target is 50p a day.

Are you content with that no moves?
Report no moves January 7, 2011 12:50 AM GMT
What do you mean Fine as Frog's Hair?  I'm making  a million on here as well, isn't everybody? Well according to this thread they are.
Report Compound Magic January 7, 2011 12:51 AM GMT
50p a day LOL  [:(][:(] Would not cover your ISP bill
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 7, 2011 4:09 AM GMT
Alex has always been considered as slightly over ambitious on here.
So I would not follow his example too closely, as it might just lead to financial ruin.
Report Alex the old wrinkled retainer January 7, 2011 8:54 AM GMT
50p a day is a target and only a target.  Who needs big targets? If you hit the target do you put your feet up?  If you don't hit the target do you chase?

50p a day is fine for me.
Report kef4o January 7, 2011 6:14 PM GMT
These questions don't exclude you even if you have a 50p target though. And targeting, I do it, but it's a bank killer.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 7, 2011 9:03 PM GMT
Daily targets are a no no.
But that doesn't mean that targets per se are bad.
After all you have got to know where you're going inorder to know if and when you're there.
Targets should be based on number of games played, which in turn should bear some intelligent mathematical nexus with the level of probabilities you are primarilly wagering on.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 7, 2011 9:08 PM GMT
kef4o
Your point is presumably that a 50p target can be as dangerous as a 500 quid target, if you're chasing in any form and manner.
If so, I wholeheartedly agree.
Report kef4o January 7, 2011 9:34 PM GMT
Yes, basically. But targets are bad anyway imo b/c they normally come with a certain time constraint and that's just unneeded pressure.

Presumably, that's what pros would feel and I doubt it's doing them any good, unless they need a motivation like not having money to pay the bills in order to get the best out of themselves.
Report kenilworth January 8, 2011 12:31 AM GMT
Professionals bet on race by race, match by match basis. If there is
little to bet on, then they, and I, have a day off. Daily, weekly, etc
targets are a nonsense.
Report Lusitano71 January 8, 2011 3:27 AM GMT
i love this so much that its 3:00am and im reading this

i love the challenge, the difficulty, the evolution, the variation, the independence betting allows, with also some big "hates" in the mixture

Futility is thinking you are an acomplished person because you have a paid job where you know that you are riding on the back of others or something, where you know that what matters is that final payday at the end of the month and the bonus by christmas,etc, etc., and at best your fight is making others believe that you really are interested in all the BS that surrounds you.
You know that in the end you really dont like what you do but you do it anyway because you need to pay your bills, you know because you dont like what you do, you will never put that extra effort into it that will make the difference between an exciting thing or a boring to death one.
This futility affects i would safely say 98% of people, so, having done both of them in my life i can safely say, i love what i do now and i feel fortunate that i can do it
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 8, 2011 3:53 AM GMT
Lusi
Sounds just like the sort of philosophising that most do in the middle of night, either p!ssed or unable to sleep.
Butwhen they get up in the morning, theycarry on as usual doing nothing about it till it's all too late in life.
I'm glad to hear that you got off your butt and did something different in your life. I wish you all the best for trying.
Report Lusitano71 January 8, 2011 11:01 AM GMT
LOL FAFH

no i wasnt pissed, its just my way of seeing how people in general just surrender their dreams and aspirations to pay the bills, society tells you that "this is the way to go" but as you want to feel included you start to make decisions based on what others expect you to rather than what you really want to do and from then on you will never achieve your true potential (of course many don't have that luxury of chosing)
i started doing what i do when at a certain time in my life i said to myself "feck them, i dont know exactly what i want but i surely know what i dont want to do" and from then on i had a free mind to search and eventually find it, simples
Report brendanuk1 January 8, 2011 11:04 AM GMT
Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls
Report duncan idaho January 8, 2011 11:10 AM GMT
Good posts, Lusitano. Do you mind me asking how long you've been full time on here and what is your MO (programming, stat analysis, etc)?
Report DaveEdwards January 8, 2011 12:19 PM GMT
Lusitano makes a very pertinent observation.

Other peoples opinions about what is right for you, especially concerning betting are worthless. They will undoubtedly be contaminated with preconceived ideas about "gambling" & will serve you no purpose whatsoever.
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 12:36 PM GMT
I share the same boat but conformity isn't as bad, and feeling special b/c you're not conforming is wrong imo.
Report duncan idaho January 8, 2011 12:47 PM GMT
Of course it's bad if it stops you being you.
Report DirtyCashMoney January 8, 2011 1:22 PM GMT
And it's bad if you end up married with kids because of it..
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
What I really don't like is people who feel they are special b/c they are different or nonconforming. It reaks of selfcenteredness and "I'm better than you." attitude. Who are you tell that others are unhappy with their job and not putting enough effort etc.? Also, if you think that lack of effort does not count for people who love what they're doing, you are deluded.
Report duncan idaho January 8, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
Married with kids might be exactly what you want to be. Nothing wrong with that.
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 1:53 PM GMT
Laugh Haha, you caught me.
Report Coachbuster January 8, 2011 3:11 PM GMT
kef4o     08 Jan 11 13:45 
What I really don't like is people who feel they are special b/c they are different or nonconforming. It reaks of selfcenteredness and "I'm better than you." attitude. Who are you tell that others are unhappy with their job and not putting enough effort etc.? Also, if you think that lack of effort does not count for people who love what they're doing, you are deluded.
_______________________

I think it's harder if you non conform since the 'system' sways heavily in favour of folk who do conform (atleast as far as job prospects go ) ,therefore if you can think of a way to make something pay away from the norm  then i think it's something to be proud of .

Trying to make a success of something  anywhere ,whether it be on here ,e bay, running  a business ...its pretty bloody hard going.

However ,whether anyone is better than anyone else is open to debate.
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 3:16 PM GMT
That is well the case coachbuster, no need to be smug about it though. That's what I have problem with.
Report Mr.Angry January 8, 2011 3:35 PM GMT
Some people like the security of a regular income.
Report Coachbuster January 8, 2011 3:36 PM GMT
Absolutely . Everyone in honest employment is a vital piece in the jigsaw puzzle of life.
Report The Investor January 8, 2011 9:18 PM GMT
Absolutely. Everyone is a vital piece in the jigsaw puzzle of life. [;)]
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 8, 2011 10:18 PM GMT
Every jigsaw puzzle is a vital part of life.
Report Trevh January 8, 2011 10:39 PM GMT
Everyone is a piece in the jigsaw puzzle of life.

Not many, if any, are vital :)
Report Lusitano71 January 8, 2011 10:50 PM GMT
kef4o     08 Jan 11 13:45
What I really don't like is people who feel they are special b/c they are different or nonconforming.


Dont get me wrong kef4o, i dont feel special but im glad im fortunate, fortunate enough to know that i have never conformed to whatever others told me it was the way to go

and like the man that was pissed at God and asked,
"God why dont i ever win?? why?? why??"
God answered "Son, at least buy the ticket"

my best experiences in life came from going against the mainstream or if you prefer against "the safe way" or "the conforming way"

im fortunate because i had that choice and intuition to know what was important but im well aware that many dont have the choice, so what i say goes against those..the ones that have it

Now let's talk about RESILIENCE

Resilence is what you dont think you have but when confronted with the harsh reality, you will soon find out that you have it in loads (unless you're a total loser), that resilience can make the hardest situation seem not that bad...thats a defence mechanism inate to us humans and most use it throughout their lives and like i said 98% of the working people use it every day

[;)]
Report The Investor January 8, 2011 10:52 PM GMT
kef4o
Date Joined: 05 Sep 07
Add contact | Send message
When: 08 Jan 11 13:45
What I really don't like is people who feel they are special b/c they are different or nonconforming. It reaks of selfcenteredness and "I'm better than you." attitude. Who are you tell that others are unhappy with their job and not putting enough effort etc.? Also, if you think that lack of effort does not count for people who love what they're doing, you are deluded.


A definition of 'special': of a distinct or particular kind or character

As nonconformists are by their very essence a minority, you could certainly call them special. Not saying they are better though. A lot of 'nonconformists' like to be different together. Straight out of the life of Brian: Think for yourselves!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqq3e03EBQ

All a bit of word play
Report catfloppo January 8, 2011 10:57 PM GMT
I am non-conformist and better than everyone else.  So it is possible...
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 11:45 PM GMT
When I said special, I meant it as in superior.
Report kef4o January 8, 2011 11:48 PM GMT
If you feel fulfulled though, good for you. Just don't think one can't feel this way if one has a regular job.
Report Lusitano71 January 9, 2011 12:10 AM GMT
regular is the key word yet you seem to love it
Report kef4o January 9, 2011 12:17 AM GMT
Sorry, I don't follow you, Lusitano.
Report Lusitano71 January 9, 2011 12:26 AM GMT
thats obvious kef4o
Report dave b January 9, 2011 12:26 AM GMT
I never have much to say these days, but this is a gem of a thread.
Report Lusitano71 January 9, 2011 12:38 AM GMT
yes dave b and another gem is having 60 replies in 9 years.. you dont talk much do you??

thats less than one reply per month Laugh

talk about discipline Cool
Report dave b January 9, 2011 12:50 AM GMT
Ha... don't believe the stats do you Lusitano71?
Report Lusitano71 January 9, 2011 12:55 AM GMT
[;)]
Report Franky Four Fingers January 9, 2011 1:36 PM GMT
Ask questions, particularly the question "why?". Ask everyone (not just the so-called experts), and try to answer your own questions as well. When you get an answer, try to think of exceptions, and then ask yourself why those exceptions exist. Never be satisfied until you arrive at an answer that has very few exceptions.


Look for selfish motives.Some people will become very annoyed, and perhaps even offended, that you're questioning something they accept without question. Whenever people want you to think a certain way, it's because it benefits them in some way. But that benefit is not always obvious or direct. Many times, people want you to adopt their perspective because it makes them feel more comfortable and secure (safety in numbers). Sometimes, people's beliefs make it easier for them to feel like a good person. These people don't want those beliefs challenged because it's as if you were challenging them personally - it seems to them that you are questioning their "good-person-hood". Sometimes, people are trying to look out for your best interest, and truly want you to be in step with their beliefs without looking into their statements any further. And sometimes, people just want to be seen as authoritative and trusted, so they're personally invested in whether or not you buy into the things they say. That's why they take it personally if you don't automatically buy in.


People who don't think for themselves are often scared of disagreeing with others, and scared of "rocking the boat". A freethinker, on the other hand, bases their self worth on something other than what people think of them. These people may still experience rejection, discomfort, and anguish, but they will continue to think for themselves.

Do the research. Look into the statements made by others. You'll be amazed at how many times you'll find lots of evidence to contradict the statements of others. Yet, these people spout this erroneous information and never question the accuracy or truth of what they're saying. Use Google or go to the library, and search for information to prove or disprove the statements made. Remember where you get the "evidence" from. Be aware that, just because you saw it in a book or on the internet, that alone does not make it the truth.

Live outside your comfort zone. Not only will some people be very perturbed by your refusal to take their statements at face value, but you will also learn to question your own assumptions, and that can make you feel lost and confused, like walking into a dark room. It takes courage to face uncertainty. Be Bold.

Beware paralysis by analysis. When you're thinking for yourself, you're taking full responsibility for your life and your actions, because you can't say you were trusting someone else's judgment. This can be very nerve-wracking, and lead to excessive self-doubt. Remember that thinking for yourself doesn't mean being sure. It means making decisions based on your own analysis, rather than someone else's. There will always be some degree of uncertainty, no matter what, that you must learn to accept and cope with.
Report duncan idaho January 9, 2011 5:06 PM GMT
Good post, Frankie. How do you make your money on here, out of interest? Not asking for any trade secrets, just general idea!
Report kohaku January 9, 2011 7:06 PM GMT
Yes ,agree good post Frankie..

Winners in most walks of life actually,do the opposite to what the majority think.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 7:10 PM GMT
Do you know why they call him Franky F**king Four Fingers?
Report kohaku January 9, 2011 7:14 PM GMT
I've just formed some sort of image.
Report top2rated January 9, 2011 7:29 PM GMT
http://www.wikihow.com/Think-for-Yourself

Nice one Franky

Grin
Report Franky Four Fingers January 9, 2011 7:43 PM GMT
Good Spot T2R Grin
Report Franky Four Fingers January 9, 2011 7:44 PM GMT
I do the opposite to all the winners on here ...





I lose money,hence the nickname.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 7:53 PM GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLTjL5HY9o8&feature=related

I was hoping to find the "Do you know why they call him Franky F**king Four Fingers?"

But this was all they had.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 7:56 PM GMT
Seriously now, very good information in that post Frankie.

For whose own good do people want you to do things or conform, yours or theirs?
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:09 PM GMT
How do you know that's good information Dave?
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 8:12 PM GMT
Only because it conforms in a way with my own outlook on life. I've always walked to the beat of my own drum & the content above kind of rings true with me.

That said, there is no way to know for sure if your own outlook on life is correct.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 8:13 PM GMT
But so long as it is correct for you that is what counts. Of course that applies to how you bet too.
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:14 PM GMT
If that rings true they you share the views of the author, and so are not a free thinking. [;)]
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 8:15 PM GMT
Laugh But as that is the first time I have read this I at least arrived at my conclusions independently!
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:16 PM GMT
"Yes! We're all individuals!"
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:16 PM GMT
Single man: "I'm not different!"
Report Franky Four Fingers January 9, 2011 8:19 PM GMT
Supply and demand.

A bet that is in popular demand will usually contract in price.
Report Franky Four Fingers January 9, 2011 8:21 PM GMT
Jeez I've made plenty of stupid bets ... But you can't put s**t back in the donkey
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:22 PM GMT
Arsenic was in high demand during the 1800s for use in snuff.
Report top2rated January 9, 2011 8:34 PM GMT
Franky

I was just looking around that wikihow site and stumbled across this....

http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Long-Fall

Haven't laughed so much in ages.

I'm glad we bumped in to each other earlier on otherwise I doubt I'd ever have read it.
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 8:48 PM GMT
http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-in-Dangerous-Times

How to Survive in Dangerous Times
#14 Keep a flashlight and pair of shoes near your bed so they can be easily used in the event of an emergency.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 8:54 PM GMT
What dangerous times were they planning for an earthquake?
Report top2rated January 9, 2011 8:57 PM GMT
http://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Running-Catleap

Tips Start practicing between ledges that have the ground close between them so that if you fall, you won't fall very far.

Laugh
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 9, 2011 9:08 PM GMT
Anybody who says he walks to the beat of a different drummer probably isn't.
It ain't that simple.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 9:22 PM GMT
Froggy, things never are with you.

Suffice it to say you know absolutely nothing about me, either as a person or what I may or may not be doing on betfair, so you can keep your preconceived opinions about what I probably am to yourself.
Report Mr.Angry January 9, 2011 9:23 PM GMT
We knew you would say that.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 9:23 PM GMT
Laugh
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 9:25 PM GMT
I like your style Mr Angry, you've made me laugh this evening & you don't get that very often on here
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 9, 2011 10:03 PM GMT
Yep Mr Angry is very astute and very cynical. I like both characteristics.
Dave E
Don't take things so personally.
The fact that I can get your goat means in itself that you are not all that different from the mob. You just think you are.
Real contrarians are so off the wall that they never even understand when you're having a go at them.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 10:47 PM GMT
Froggy, that is nonsense. The fact that I have a short fuse has nothing to do whatsoever to do with my databases, spreadsheets or the work & research I have put into them.

Again you presume that I am not that different from the mob with no real basis to your thinking apart from your preconceived ideas of what I may be like.

Of course someone who is of a contrarian nature would realise that someone was having a go at them. Honestly, you do talk crap sometimes.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 9, 2011 11:23 PM GMT
Well you know what to do then Dave.
I'm just being contrary. You should understand that.
Report mesmerised January 9, 2011 11:25 PM GMT
Dave, can I call you Dave, nope? OK Dave listen, stop being so pi$$ed off, if you were making money you wouldn't be seething, relax and follow Money Tree's tips you'll soon be where the rest of the forum are.Laugh
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 9, 2011 11:34 PM GMT
I repeat Dave.
True contrarians are usually impervious to criticism.
They have to be.
It essentially always comes with the territory.
Most people think they're wrong and worse than that quite often think they're idiots.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong or an idiot, so ipso facto you can't be a contrarian.
Nice argument eh ?
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 11:44 PM GMT
I've hit upon the perfect solution. Froggy I'm blocking you. You add nothing.

mesmerised, again just because I have a short fuse doesn't mean anything about my account or anything else for that matter. Thanks for the MT steer, but I'm ok thanks.
Report mesmerised January 9, 2011 11:49 PM GMT
You have a short fuse for a reason, you need that seeing to, and don't get bent out of shape at reading that, do something like spend less time here and more time exercising, that will get rid of your stress, sitting down at a monitor no stop is giving you a headache. I only post here early morning and sometime late evening like now, short bursts.
Report DaveEdwards January 9, 2011 11:52 PM GMT
Truth is I've put about 12 hours homework in today, I'm tired & that is why I flew a bit quickly.

You are right, I probably do need to relax a bit more.
Report Bayes. January 9, 2011 11:58 PM GMT
I'm renaming this thread the futility of posting
Report mesmerised January 10, 2011 12:00 AM GMT
I don't Bayes I think I'm good therapy for a lot of seethersLaugh
Report mesmerised January 10, 2011 12:00 AM GMT
know*
Report DaveEdwards January 10, 2011 12:04 AM GMT
Correct Bayes. Time out for me I think.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 10, 2011 12:17 AM GMT
Wise move Dave.
The blocking that is.
All the best of luck in the future in going against the flow.
Nice if you can do it.
Report DirtyCashMoney January 10, 2011 12:22 AM GMT
@ Duncan Idaho...Married with kids because of conformity was my point..You must've seen the poor chaps being dragged around the shops with a pram and a wife..They'd rather do that through some sense of belonging, than risk being alone..I do hear however, that some do this by choice..
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR January 10, 2011 12:37 AM GMT
Btw the simple answer to the OP is that there is nothing futile about betting if you're winning.
Otherwise it is totally futile, except perhaps for the entertainment value.
After all, some excitement is a necessary part of everybody's life surely.
Report Ron Pillock January 10, 2011 6:19 PM GMT
Betting for a living is just another business.  Those who can calculate the risk reward ratio correctly tend to make money.  A few people seem to be disappering up their own Jacksies.  There's nothing special about it.
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com