advice on trading courses..

Tell him to put the money in here and start off small. He's got far more chance of working it out for himself than learning anything from a trading course

If he's an accountant by trade, then he has the ability to understand the "math of trading" from the outset.

As previously posted, tell him to put a small amount in the account, experiment with the markets with the understanding that he will lose that initial deposit (this loss is more likely to come from leaving a position open ("let it ride") than trades going against him.

Tell him to learn to "red out" as well as "green out" in the beginning.  He will understand stop loss.

Once he has more green outs than reds, he should deposit more.

very simple.... trading profit = selling price - buying price

Courses you need to go on start at newton abbot, finish at perth.

No Iris
trading profit=buying price -selling price- commission- PC.
To the OP.
Assuming you're not just spamming for Centaur, I would say the following
1) Your friend being an accountant means nothing in itself. In fact probably the last person who would be able to get a job in an investment bank trading room would probably be the applicant with an accounting background.
2) If he's not a self starter by nature, and from the sound of things he's not from the way he's discussing things in theory with you and others presumably, then it's unlikely he has in-built attributes to be a successful trader.
3)The basic maths of trading is simple in that anybody who can divide two prices and work out probabilities ( eg 1/decimal price)and doesn't need to be learnt from any course.
4) The only useful thing that he/she might get from any trining course is what are the best fast bet placement tools and tricks to use.

3) -------work out probabilities --- can understand it and it doesn't need to be learnt----"

Investments bank trading are nothing to aspire to. Investment banks are fully of retarded mysognists, racists & liars. chalk and cheese imo

My point brendanuk was that they are also NOT full of people with accounting backgrounds.
Your obvious disgust, dislike of the general make up of investment bank traders is probably not too far off the mark though. They do not have a good image to say the least.

I have seen the website which is used by Centaur. It says that training will be given in the use of API software. In view of the fact that there are many such "solutions" available, does Centaur offer training in all or a select few of the options available ? If only a few, what criteria does Centaur apply in selecting those which will be used for its training courses ?

The courses are not cheap and it would be helpful to know those products which are used in them prior to making a booking. There wouldn't seem to be a lot of point in someone booking such a course unless he had at leat some knowledge of the products used.

Mr.Spleem. The cynic in me thinks you already know the answer and are in fact trying to stir it up a bit. They are quite blatantly biased to one particular vendor as well you know IMO.

Many people attend training courses.
Therefore they teach what the masses already do.
Since the masses mostly lose, they teach you how to lose.

The best teacher is an inquisitive mind, a stubborn personality, and Betfair itself.

have to agree its better being a lone wolf than being a sheep led to slaughter.

Why do Betfair allow training courses which advocate only one software when they, themselves, recommend a whole host of applications in their "Betfair Approved Solutions" list ? Is this the software that Betfair rate as number one ? If so, it would be handy if they gave some sort of pecking order so that people like me could have an appreciation of which ones were better than others.

I went on a Betfair training course years ago and it was run in an exchange shop in Cardiff. Cost me nothing, had a free book, some beers, sausage rolls and sarnies, and I could have had a woolly cap if I had wanted. Course was good and the guys were helpful. The software used was determined simply by that used in the shop and it was Gruss Betting Assistant, a product which I have used ever since.

Things seem to have changed and not for the better.

Lori's advice is all you need to know. Best training course is trial and error on small stakes.
Saying that, he missed the boat. Successful punters have become more sophisticated, bot programmers have devised their bots with greater intelligence, and betfair have joined the fray inch by mile to the despair of the previous and others mentioned.
If I was a trained accountant, regardless of Monty Python sketches I'd stick to that unless the trial and error course returned fantastic results.
Regards.

centaur used to be known as fantastic forecasts, google that and i think you will be ok

Surely, that's wrong . Centaur cannot possibly be Fantastic4casts.com ? I wouldn't dream of subscribing to the people who promise huge wins. £50 a month ? They must be joking !

I can remember reading something about Centaur and it was supposed to be a quality outfit. I think that is unlikely that these two organisations can possibly be related.

I know Keith Sobey, the guy behind Centaur (previously fantastic forecasts and I can honestly say that they are a very genuine service. Saying that I do not think that their trading course is very good and better value can be found by reading a few books..like Lay Back and Win ( i think that is the name).

why not give Centaur a ring & ask these questions

I'm quite interested in what Centaur are doing, with regard to their training, but more with their actual betting.

I find it very odd that there is no information on the size of their 'funds'. Have a look at their performance and how they achieved reasonable returns early on, and not so good later. It suggests to me that they made a good return with small capital and less with large capital, meaning investing with them is pointless.

Although the returns are good in comparison to traditional investments, it seems strange that they can go 1year+ without making any profit whatsoever from some of their funds (except of course their own fees!!!)

This is the first time I've heard of Centaur. Just read this Times article from April:

Investors are moving into betting as they seek ever more innovative ways to diversify their portfolios.

Last week saw the launch of the first regulated fund that allows you to benefit from the outcome of sports events such as football, tennis and rugby.

The Galileo fund, managed by the UK-based Centaur Group, allows individuals with at least €100,000 (£89,000) to spend to gain what the backers claim are uncorrelated “economy-proof” returns by trading on sports betting exchanges.

It follows the announcement of a service that tracks the Hollywood Stock Exchange, where movie-lovers can make (and lose) money by placing bets on a film’s potential success. It is managed by Cantor Fitzgerald, one of New York’s biggest brokers.
Related Links
‘There is skill in betting’
Centaur Media shares jump amid bid moves

Betting exchanges, which have traditionally allowed betting on the outcome of sports events, are seeing a record level of interest in politics. Mike Robb at Betfair said: “The prospect of a hung parliament has added to the level of interest. There is now more variety in the political betting arena than in sports betting. This year we have about 1,300 political bets, compared with about 50 normally.”

They include everything from what colour tie Gordon Brown will wear on election night to which candidates will lose their deposits. In the 2005 election, about £7m of political bets were placed. So far this year, £5m have been placed — and that’s before the election has even been called.

For the first time, Betfair will allow customers to bet on the outcome in every constituency in Britain . Traditional bookies, such as William Hill, are offering the same service.

It slashed the odds on Vince Cable delivering the next budget from 12-1 to 7-1, after the televised debate between the potential chancellors on Monday. Osborne was still 2-5 favourite, with Alistair Darling at 8-1.

Here we explain how investment betting works.

THE SPORTS FUND

Centaur’s Galileo fund will seek to find statistical anomalies in betting exchanges, such as Betfair, **** and Sporting Index, to make a profit.

A betting exchange allows individuals to bet on the outcome of an event. The odds are set by individuals and not a bookmaker. It means that in some cases, the odds may not reflect the probability of that event occurring, based on facts.

Tony Woodhams at Centaur said: “The odds set on Andy Murray before Wimbledon are almost always wrong. People vote with their hearts and not their heads. Say the odds of Murray winning are 35% on betting exchanges. If our calculations show the real odds are about 25%, this is where we seek to make profit.”

Analysts use 10 years of sports data to estimate odds. These are updated “every second” and factor in things such as injuries and the weather.

The fund invests in eight core sports. No single one will take up more than 20% of the fund, though on average no more than 3% will be allocated.

Woodhams said the sports markets are not related to other asset classes, such as shares or property. “It’s an economy-proof environment,” he said.

However, financial advisers urge caution. Adrian Lowcock of Bestinvest said: “Sports betting should not be viewed as an investment. The risks are much greater and it is much more volatile.”

Centaur has been in operation for 10 years and has been applying its strategy to five unregulated funds. It says its average annual return is about 40%. Profits made are taxable, even though profits made through gambling are generally tax-free.

Money is held in a Credit Suisse account and the fund is audited by Deloitte. It is based in Gibraltar and regulated by the Financial Services Commission there — the equivalent of the Financial Services Authority, the City watchdog.

Investments do not fall under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, which covers you for up to £48,000 if the firm holding your money fails. Instead, the Galileo fund is covered by Gibraltar’s equivalent scheme which protects only €20,000.

The minimum initial investment is €100,000. Any additional investment must be the equivalent of at least €25,000. Fees include a 3% annual management charge and 30% of profits above a certain threshold. You also pay up to 5% if you leave within five years.

BETTING EXCHANGES

If you do not have €100,000 to invest, you could take a punt through betting exchanges. The largest by far is Betfair, which accounts for about 90% of the market.

Though it is best known for sports betting, a growing number of bets are being placed on political outcomes.

A betting exchange is different from traditional bookies such as William Hill or Ladbrokes. Instead of betting against odds set by the house, with a profit margin built in, the exchange brings together people with opposite views about a particular outcome, and individuals set the odds. The exchange takes a margin from winnings.

For example, last week someone made a bet at 12-1 that Labour would win the general election with a majority. It means that for every £1 they bet, they would get back £12 if it turns out they are right. Betfair matches that bet with someone who has the opposite view, who puts in £12 and gets £1 back if Labour doesn’t win with a majority.

Betfair holds the cash for both parties and pays the total, £13, to the winner. However, it also takes a small margin on the winnings so the total return will be less.

First-time players pay 5%, but the rate falls to 2% as you become a more frequent user.

Betfair currently has odds of a Conservative majority at 8-11, a hung parliament is 15-8 and a Labour majority 12-1. Gains made from betting are tax-free.

BETTING ON FILMS

Last month saw the launch of the Cantor Exchange, which allows you to profit from a film’s box office performance.

It is based in America and follows the Hollywood Stock Exchange — a virtual exchange that tracks the performance of Hollywood films at the box office.

The exchange goes live on April 20, subject to approval from the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission. It will be called DBOR (Domestic Box Office Receipts) Movie Futures.

The launch is aimed at Americans, but Cantor exchange said there would be nothing to stop UK investors taking part.

The minimum amount you can put in depends on an expected profit target. Cantor Exchange said: “Say you want to invest in the new film Clash of the Titans. It is hoped the film will make about $200m (£130m). The minimum amount you can put in will therefore be $200. If the film does better than projected, you make money. If it makes less, you lose money.

“If you had made a bet on Avatar, which did much better than expected, you would have been in profit.”

If you think a film will do less well than expected, you can also short — bet against its success.

The final profit or loss figure will be calculated based on total US takings at the box office over four weeks for blockbusters and 12 weeks for those with limited releases, after which they will be delisted from the exchange. Analysts are examining whether the concept could be brought to the UK.

Sounds like Betting Promotion but without the private funding ?

How can Centaur expect to be taken seriously when they associate themselves with such a poor software vendor? Of all the API applications available they get into bed with one that has a history of deception.

betfairy  17:57 [;)]

i kid you not, centaur used to be known as fantastic forecasts, the used to get punters to subscribe for exactas or straight forecasts ? they used to advertise in the racing post under that name  a asa investigation went against them under that name,
could be why they changed it ? dont know what they are up to now but facts are facts.

seems like spam to me so im sorry to spoil the party

Centaur say that they use a software that is just like Betfair Evolution. In their latest efforts to seel the product, Racing Traders say that they are "the first mainstream Betfair API Solution which allows you to trade in training mode. This means that you can learn to trade or test out a new system without any risk at all of losing money. The application uses the live Betfair data which means that you can get a feel for the market without putting any cash at risk."

Absolute nonsense ! MarketFeeder Pro has had this facility for years.

The 'What if' function on the Standard Betfair interface provides this as well in its basic form

I believe that software manufacturers should be very careful in making claims about their products. The claim made that the Betfair Evolution software is the first to have a training mode is clearly untrue. Hopefully, their advertising material will be amended to reflect this.

If they are not prepared to change their advertising, Betfair ought to consider withdrawing its approval of the product.

The minimum initial investment is €100,000. Any additional investment must be the equivalent of at least €25,000. Fees include a 3% annual management charge and 30% of profits above a certain threshold. You also pay up to 5% if you leave within five years.
I'd rather give 100k to Footsoldiers or Money Tree to invest to be honest.

Do you think that they would accept my IOU ? Given their expected return of 40%, even allowing for payment of fees, I'd be in credit in three years. Yes, they should allow me free membership of the Galileo Fund and start sending me some money just in time for Christmas 2013.

"Dictum Meum Pactum". I'll trust them if they trust me, that's fair, isn't it ?

What chance do I have of making money on sports trading when there are clever people like these around ? I think I'll go and eat a worm. I know my place.[:)][:)]

If they are not prepared to change their advertising, Betfair ought to consider withdrawing its approval of the product.

You have to remember that many at betfair previously made their livings through similar fraudulent schemes while working in the city.

I cannot believe that Mr Black would want to be associated with anything that would drag Betfair into disrepute and am sure that he would only employ managers who had integrity.

If it is to continue to be successful, Betfair needs to be trusted by all its clients and I cannot see it doing anything which would cause that trust to be diminished in any way.

"The minimum initial investment is €100,000. Any additional investment must be the equivalent of at least €25,000. Fees include a 3% annual management charge and 30% of profits above a certain threshold. You also pay up to 5% if you leave within five years"

WTF? What sort of idiot would join a company like that?!?!

In 2001, he took early retirement and set up Centaur, a tipping advisory service based in his native north-east. By the middle of the past decade, it had 2,000 clients.

Its racing recommendations were so successful that its morning telephone messages to back a particular runner could move the market on a horse from 66-1 to as short as 4-1.


It's not too much much of a stretch of the imagination to assume that these guys know what they are doing. However It's reasonable to say that as capital increases a natural shift will occur toward maximizing fees rather than profit, which means allowing assets under management to grow to many multiples of what would be optimal.

That seems the most likely explanation for good results early on, and far less favourable results later on. The initial investors reap huge rewards, then a huge number of new customers jump on the bandwagon generating huge fees, while performance deteriorates.

By 2003, Sobey was keen to expand into football betting, noting that non-racing fanatics still had a problem with the concept of profitable investment on the turf.

However, Centaur's first football fund foundered on the problem of there being only three possible outcomes to a football match. When the football analyst's picks hit a losing run, clients lost the lot.

Plenty of room for improvement then.

Sobey is proud that the company's accounts are audited annually by CLB Coopers and that its profits or losses are totally transparent.

Centaur provided what Sobey has called 'a wonderful income'. Annual turnover exceeded £1 million, realising a profit of around £200,000.

I'm not going to keep posting tidbits, so I'll just put up the link so you can read the article yourselves. Very interesting.
http://www.moneywise.co.uk/grow-money/investing/article/2010/05/25/will-gamblers-become-sport-traders

One last bit:Equally central to their empire building is a scheme for a government-approved MBA graduate diploma in sports betting trading.

The idea is to offer bright young university graduates an alternative route to the careers and six-figure salaries they may once have gone looking for in banking and law.

Thanks for the link. If Centaur were capable of playing the markets so as to make big profits, they would rely solely on their own capital. Clearly, by seeking investment funds from outsiders they do not have this capability. It would appear that they are seeking to place themselves as intermediaries in sports trading and rely on fees for their own income.

Putting my best head on, and using it to its fullest extent, I am certain that they will never receive a penny from me.

By 2003, Sobey was keen to expand into football betting, noting that non-racing fanatics still had a problem with the concept of profitable investment on the turf. However, Centaur's first football fund foundered on the problem of there being only three possible outcomes to a football match. When the football analyst's picks hit a losing run, clients lost the lot.

Holy cow!  Only three possible outcomes!
A losing run...
The clients lost the lot!

Fvck me.  This is the very definition of classic losing punter mentality!  Laying outsiders.  Poor staking.  Chasing.

Deary deary me.

Thousands of mug punters are obsessed with every race and every match. The few who go home rich are not interested in the spectacle, only the result.

Well he's get that wrong for a start, as a number of people on this forum swear the opposite (me for one).  It's that blinkered mentality that there's only one way to do things.  A closed mind.

Equally central to their empire building is a scheme for a government-approved MBA graduate diploma in sports betting trading. The idea is to offer bright young university graduates an alternative route to the careers and six-figure salaries they may once have gone looking for in banking and law.


Oh yes, I cannot wait for the first threads to appear: "I have a degree in Sports Betting.  Why can't I win"

Superb stuff!

Have they got Bernard Madoff in as a non-exec director?

there you go, the interesting thing is another world famous tipster complained, now that is strange

Isiris Racing Services challenged whether:


ASA Adjudication on Centaur Global Ltd
Centaur Global Ltd
187 Main Street
Seahouses
Northumberland
NE68 7TU
Date: 9 January 2008
Media:Press general
Sector:Leisure
Number of complaints:1
Complaint Ref:18008

Ad
An ad in the trade press, for Centaur Global's betting tipster service, was headlined "7 YEARS OF PROFIT"; text stated "NO ONE IN RACING OFFERS: OUR PERFORMANCE 7 YEARS TRADING - 7 YEARS PROFIT OUR TRANSPARENCY LOOK AT OUR WEBSITE IT SHOWS THE HIGHS AND LOWS ... It has been a well documented difficult year for tipping services across the UK But CENTAUR at this point in December are £7,754 in profit* on level £100 bet Thats [sic] the REAL REASON That EVERY YEAR Our Customers REJOIN & WIN *Figures verified by independant [sic] accountants No other tipping service allows such scrutiny of it's [sic] books. ASK YOURSELF WHY? CHECK 7 YEARS RESULTS ONLINE … ALL OUR BETS ARE PROOFED IN ADVANCE TO RACING POST AND TO CLB COOPERS THIS MEANS WE CANNOT LIE TO YOU IN THESE ADVERTS …".

Issue
Isiris Racing Services challenged whether:

1. the claim "7 YEARS OF PROFIT" could be substantiated; and

2. the claims "7 YEARS OF PROFIT", "7 YEARS TRADING - 7 YEARS PROFIT" and "Thats [sic] the REAL REASON That EVERY YEAR Our Customers REJOIN & WIN" were misleading and irresponsible, because they implied that subscribers to Centaur Global's services were very likely or certain to make a profit.

CAP Code (Edition 11)
3.17.12.2
Response
Centaur Global (Centaur) said they offered a number of different services but the ad referred to their main racing service. They pointed out that the result of every selection they had advised to clients for the last five years was recorded on their website. They said every Centaur selection was proofed in advance to the Racing Post and also to CLB Coopers (CLB), a UK accountancy and audit firm. They said CLB undertook a continuous independent verification of the performance stated on the Centaur website.

CLB said they had been proofing the forecasts of Centaur's main racing service since 1 July 2004. They said the selections were sent to them by e-mail on a daily basis and were always sent in advance of the race. They said, at the end of each month, Centaur provided them with a spreadsheet of the results for the month. They said their proofing involved them checking the horse's name on the spreadsheet against the daily selection, the result against the Racing Post website and the odds against an independent bookmaker's fax; they then checked the mathematical accuracy of the profit or loss shown by the spreadsheet. They asserted that any discrepancies were investigated with Centaur and the spreadsheet was updated if necessary; the spreadsheet was then put on Centaur's website. They said they had not given permission for their name to be used in the ad and they had not seen the ad or checked that the information in it was correct.

The Racing Post said Centaur had proofed forecasts to them since July 2000; they sent a screen grab from their ad booking system from 2000 highlighting Centaur's advertising activity. They sent a summary for Centaur for the period August 2002 - December 2006, broken down by year and indicating the annual profit.

They believed there might be some discrepancies between the selections they had sent and those provided by Centaur to the independent third party (CLB), because the monitoring process and the time in which selections were received was subject to individual interpretation and possible variance.  They believed, however, the figures substantiated the profit claims made in the ad. 

Assessment
1. Upheld

The ASA noted Centaur had been proofing their forecasts with the Racing Post since July 2000, a period of six years and five months at the time the ad was published. We also noted they had proofed their forecasts with an independent accountant since July 2004, a period of two years and five months at the time the ad was published.

We noted the ASA had adjudicated in March 2006 that the Racing Post's proofing system had not, at that time, been approved by an independent third party, as required by the CAP Help Note, and considered that it was therefore inappropriate for Centaur to rely on the Racing Post's proofing system to substantiate the claim "7 YEARS OF PROFIT".  We also noted Centaur's proofing of forecasts with the Racing Post and CLB did not span seven consecutive years at the time the ad was published.  We considered that, because they had not proofed their tips with an independent third party in line with the CAP Help Note for seven consecutive years, the claim "7 YEARS OF PROFIT" was misleading.

We requested that CLB send copies of all the e-mails sent by Centaur for seven random months of the period between July 2004, when Centaur started proofing their tips with them, and December 2006, when the ad was published.

We assessed the data and noted the overwhelming majority of forecasts corresponded exactly with Centaurs online spreadsheet of results.  We also noted, for those e-mails which included the time of the race meeting, the e-mails were sent prior to the start of the relevant events, which was confirmed by the electronic date and time stamp in the e-mail headers. We found a few inconsistencies, for example, a bet that had been proofed but not included in the online spreadsheet and vice versa.

We were concerned, however, that a large number of the e-mails we saw did not include the time or location of the race meeting for each proof and it was therefore not apparent whether the proofing e-mail was sent prior to the event starting. We were also concerned that, for only a small number of the proofing e-mails we saw had Centaur included a computer screen capture from a common betting exchange site for each of the listed events that confirmed the availability of the recommended prices in the forecasts. We were therefore unable to confirm the availability of the recommended prices in the forecasts for the majority of the e-mails we saw. We considered, therefore, that Centaur had not shown that their proofing with CLB since July 2004 was robust enough to support a profit claim. We concluded that, because Centaur had not proofed with an independent third party for seven consecutive years, and because they had not shown that their proofing with a third party since July 2004 was sufficiently robust, they had not substantiated the claim "7 YEARS OF PROFIT".

On this point, the ad breached CAP Code clauses 3.1 (Substantiation) and 7.1 (Truthfulness).

2. Upheld

We considered that we had not seen sufficient evidence to support the profit claims. We noted the ad stated "... LOOK AT OUR WEBSITE IT SHOWS THE HIGHS AND LOWS" but considered that, as a whole, it placed excessive emphasis on profits and winning and made inadequate reference to the possibility of tipping losers or losing money.  We considered that the ad misleadingly and irresponsibly implied subscribers to Centaur were very likely or certain to achieve a profit.

On this point, the ad breached CAP Code clauses 2.2 (Responsible advertising) and 7.1 (Truthfulness).

Action
We told Centaur to ensure they had evidence to show that tips had been adequately proofed with an independent third party for the time period stated in future ads. We also told them not to imply subscribers were very likely or certain to make a profit.

Adjudication of the ASA Council (Non-broadcast

Thanks for the informtion. It doesn't seem that Centaur has much going for it. Betfair should revert to its former style of education which encouraged punters to use the exchange in a friendly and helpful environment. Certainly, it should not sanction courses which are expensive and run by third parties. There is nothing to stop any software manufacturer running his own training courses but he must not be allowed to do so with the blessing of Betfair as this bestows a sense of importance which he, and his product, does not deserve.

If anybody in the South Wales area required help with using Betfair as a trading platform I would be glad to help them. And, of course, I would give my help without any charge whatsoever. This is how things were and this is how things should be.

I cannot believe that Mr Black would want to be associated with anything that would drag Betfair into disrepute and am sure that he would only employ managers who had integrity.

He'd have more chance of finding a black power activist in the KKK than finding a city boy with integrity.

Absolute joke firm them. And by the sounds of things, soon to be wound-up firm unless they can rope in some more people with more money than sense.

"The initial investors reap huge rewards, then a huge number of new customers jump on the bandwagon generating huge fees, while performance deteriorates."


Sounds like most Hedge funds...




The simple fact is the BF markets are way to small for a hedge fund.
Just assume the found  100 punters to invest.
(Thats  100 x  £100,000  =   £10,000,000   thats 10 mil  in capital).

1st Year,  20% profit = £2,000,000      assuming no lossses!
30% mgmt fee ,    30%  *  2,000,000 =  £600k 
Punter get   £1,400,000



What bf markets are big enougth?

Another dream shattered.

"I SUPPOSE I was keeping the books, I’m now beating the books,” muses Keith Sobey, an accountant who now uses his finely-honed analytical skills to study horseracing and help investors beat the odds.


Poor at cooking the books by all accounts.

I am writing to you to express my sincere apologies for the fact that Centaur Corporate Holdings Limited and its constituent companies , Centaur Global Limited, Centaur Academy and Centaur Swift Limited have applied for voluntary liquidation on 9 January 2012.

The reasons for our closure are;

· A failure to achieve necessary working capital

· Failure by Betfair to deliver on a contract signed with them in April 2011.

· Continuing losses due to the high operating costs of the Centaur Academy in the City of London.

· Defaults by brokers involved in placing client funds from Centaur Private Managed Accounts.

We have contacted the leading firm of Administrators Begbies Traynor Limited who we expect will deal with all outstanding claims from creditors including clients henceforward.

Centaur offices in London and Seahouses are now closed.

This is not an action we have taken lightly and Andrew and I have invested over £300,000 in personal monies trying to keep the business trading.

Yours Sincerely

Keith Sobey

Chairman

Centaur Corporate Holdings Limited




I wonder how many investors they actually managed to attract.

ANGRY investors say they have lost nearly £1.6m after the collapse of a North East sports betting firm.

Centaur Corporate Holdings, which is based in Seahouses, Northumberland, and its subsidiaries Centaur Global, Centaur Academy and Centaur Swift, called in the administrators a fortnight ago. But the full extent of their huge losses is only now emerging.

Centaur Global worked like a hedge fund with investors putting in money for analysts to try to make a return on. Instead of trading in shares, the company was betting on the results of sporting events.

As recently as December 7, letters from the company seen by The Journal were telling clients that “taking a long term view pays off”.

And investors still believed they had tens of thousands of pounds in their accounts after the company sent out statements last month detailing their finances.

But one of the company’s clients, who did not wish to be named, said: “All client funds were kept separate in a single account and then they would get permission to make bets with it.

“But just over a week ago they sent out a letter saying they were going into liquidation and there was no money left.

“As recently as a statement sent on December 13, detailing November trades, they said my account balance was over £20,000, but that was money which it would now seem didn’t exist.”

The company claimed its analysts included former staff from bookmakers such as William Hill, as well as former Republic of Ireland football star and newspaper columnist Tony Cascarino.

The Journal was unable to reach Mr Cascarino for comment.

Between January 2004 and November 2011, the firm’s website, which is still running despite the closure of both the company’s Northumberland and London offices, claimed it had grown some investments by 1,400%.

But 2011 saw one of its horse racing funds, named after the French philosopher and author Voltaire, lose more than four-fifths of the money invested in it.

And even the firm’s flagship Newton fund, which according to a letter to clients on December 7 had enjoyed “10 winning years” and an average annual profit “of over 200%”, lost a third more than the cash gamblers had put in.

The letter to investors claimed the losses were down to “sheer bad luck”.




Tony Cascarino

The letter to investors claimed the losses were down to “sheer bad luck”.

Martingale catches up with the best of 'em.

Sounds like the police should be involved here. How easy would it be for scum bags to 'lose' investors money on an exchange if there was a willing party on the other end of the bet?? Not suggesting this outfit have done this, but this does not sound kosher to me. The FSA at the very least should be involved.

You'd have thought so Muqbil however

GAMBLING authorities are believed to be probing a North East sports betting firm that collapsed owing investors £1.6m.

Seahouses-based Centaur Corporate Holdings and it’s subsidiaries called in liquidators a fortnight ago, leaving some people tens of thousands of pounds out of pocket.

Now angry creditors have called on fraud authorities to get to the bottom of where their money went and if it was legal.

A spokesman for the Financial Services Authority (FSA) said they had received inquiries about the collapse of Centaur but, after finding the firm was not covered by their regulations, were directing people to the Gambling Commission.

I wonder how Andrew and Keith's personal finances are these days? Very healthy I would guess. Bankrupt's should be held liable for client funds from their own personal wealth, but instead as always they will scuttle off only to reappear with a similar scheme to fleece some more.

A lesson in probability.........85% of the posts on this subject will have been from people who lose. This isn't meant to be insulting to the other contributors on thread! This is simply a statistical deduction based upon the avaible data known about the other members on the exchange.

Its arguable that to make a profit you should plough your own furrow. Look at the consensus of opinion on here and do the complete opposite.

Twenty years ago there seemed to be an agreement in gambling circles not to back odds on shots. Was it actually true that odds on betting always lead you to the poorhouse?

In running on sports like golf many times it seems people over-react on things which happen E.g. birdies, bogies.

I remember a piece in the racing post on football matches played at the end of the season, the odds would differ greatly about top teams playing lesser teams compared to the odds which would have been given if theses teams played in the middle or beginning of the season. The suggestion was top teams don't always try as much if they have nothing left to gain, the odds were much closer than you'd expect. but this article poured scorn on whether the mathematical evidence proved this to be true.   After all if you'd paid £50 to get into Old Trafford, even if theyed already won the league, wouldn't you be a bit miffed if the didn't do all they could to win that game.

I read a small piece of writing from a book on finacial trading, in the city.

Buy on rumour. (back)

Sell...when the news becomes official E.g. commonly known to be true by the majority. (lay)

Reasoning.......if yo buy on the rumour you may get on at a bigger price than the stock or share should be.  When the news becomes official, nearly always you wont be the first to know, often you'll end up taking a worse price than the share should be because of weight of money.

Its not unreasonable to think this could be adapted to betting! This is why I have suggested back after the first sentence and lay on the second example.

I myself am not too sure that horse racing is always the best forum for the above theory, too many unknowns E.g. Is the money down? And is the jockey properly trying?

Its my belief that it may work better on ante post horse racing and other types of sports.

Tony Cascarino

Sheer bad luck 


Amateurs

The legislation re LIMITED companies used to be...and probably still is....that if a Company "trades"/carries on in business past a point when it is "clear" the Company is insolvent.....
==============================================================

Trading while insolvent is unlawful in a number of legal systems, and may result in the directors becoming personally liable for a company's assets.

Under UK insolvency law trading once a company is legally insolvent can trigger several provisions of the Insolvency Act 1986, including,

    Wrongful trading - Section 214
    Transaction at an undervalue - Section 238
    Preferences - Section 239
    Extortionate credit transactions - Section 244

Under wrongful trading legislation in the UK, if the company continues to trade while it is insolvent the directors of the company may become personally liable to contribute to the company's assets and help meet the deficit to unsecured creditors if the company's financial position is made worse by the directors continuing to trade instead of putting the company immediately into liquidation
====================================================================

Not saying the Company mentioned on this thread was doing this....but looks like the legislation that unsecured creditors would have to consider.

May well be unlikely that any substantial funds would be obtained by pursuing such action............and would probably be costly to pursue.....

As usual FSA ignores situations where an "investor" "invests" in such a company.........they are flaming useless !

Not that I have much sympathy for those gullible enough to be sucked into "investing" in such a copmany.........

Have more sympathy for those who "saved" over course of a year in company that produced hampers for Christmas......then lost their savings when company was placed in liquidation .......FSA did nothing in that case either......NOTHING TO DO WITH US YOUR HONOUR!

This is pure mathematical scam.  Most likely:

- The generous 'salaries' would be based on being employed for the the "academy's".  The salaries/expenses would not be based on the betting fund.  This is key

- The "academy" over several years will show a loss AFTER SALARIES and EXPENSES of the employees and directors.

- The "betting" would show a profit of "X" but the funds to cover the losing "academy" will be multiplies of that.

- Traders and betting will be revealed as never enough to cover the "academy".

- Perhaps the "academy" received LOANS from the fund but when the "academy" "closed", these loans will not be retrievable.


Further investigation will possibly reveal that:

When the "fund" backed an outcome, someone within the organization would simply laid the outcome. 

Since the person laying the outcome would have an "over the top salary" anyways, it didn't affect him.

Outcome:  Fund makes money - expenses paid to individual that laid or salary bonus

Outcome: Fund loses.  So be it and someone is happy and his expenses/salary still remain payable.

Surely BF would "pick-up" on such shenanigans re other side of bets SS

Feb 9, 2012 -- 1:00PM, DFCIRONMAN wrote:

Surely BF would "pick-up" on such shenanigans re other side of bets SS

Perhaps Betfair did and wanted to distance themselves:

· Failure by Betfair to deliver on a contract signed with them in April 2011.
 
ALSO:
· A failure to achieve necessary working capital


So they TAKE A PERCENTAGE OF THE WINNINGS?????  No, they were drawing expenses.

P.S.  My "working capital" is
- PC
- Mac
- Extra screen
- Virgin (for At The Races)
- Calculator (Rymans)
- and 100% on a new desk and set up.


"default from brokers involved in placing client funds".

Default means they gambled and lost OR, per my scenario, also an opportunity to shift money in a back/lay scheme.

As for Andrew and Keith putting £300,000 of their own money in, it will be interesting to see what percentage of their salaries and expenses this equaled.  It doesn't show good faith and is a smoke screen that was meant to keep things going to (a) recoup unreported losses (b) buy time or (c) look like business as usual to get new pigeons to pay old pigeons.

Here is the letter from this thread.
---------------------------------

I am writing to you to express my sincere apologies for the fact that Centaur Corporate Holdings Limited and its constituent companies , Centaur Global Limited, Centaur Academy and Centaur Swift Limited have applied for voluntary liquidation on 9 January 2012.

The reasons for our closure are;

· A failure to achieve necessary working capital

· Failure by Betfair to deliver on a contract signed with them in April 2011.

· Continuing losses due to the high operating costs of the Centaur Academy in the City of London.

· Defaults by brokers involved in placing client funds from Centaur Private Managed Accounts.

We have contacted the leading firm of Administrators Begbies Traynor Limited who we expect will deal with all outstanding claims from creditors including clients henceforward.

Centaur offices in London and Seahouses are now closed.

This is not an action we have taken lightly and Andrew and I have invested over £300,000 in personal monies trying to keep the business trading.

Yours Sincerely

Keith Sobey

Chairman

Centaur Corporate Holdings Limited

Task force 8/1 Wednesday backed and layed 4.3 for me