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Premium charge dispute - any lawyers out there?
Premium charge dispute - any lawyers out there?
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Replies: 255
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They don't charge all winners. Just a few.
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They penalise people with high strike rates.
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or of course they could just charge every single person a flat 5%, no pc, no rebate, no discount, simple, fair, transparent, and very easy to explain and understand...so it won't happen....
******************************************************************************************************************* Very easy to explain...."Hi, we are raising the charges on ALL of our customers who pay less than 5% instead of charging the very small percentage of customers who make the most benefit from Betfair"....oh wait, thats not so easy |
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20 percent is too much. Should be 10 percent maximum.
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I prefer the same charge for everyone. Maybe it could be 3 or 4 percent. But even 5% for everyone is fairer than what we have got at the moment.
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The pc was introduced precisely because that isn't fair
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catfloppo, whats not fair about everyone being charged at the same rate?
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Until someone takes them to court Betfair can continue to make up the rules as they go along.
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This is a classic thread. Why dont betfair just charge 5% flat commission instead? A great idea: more than double prices for your best customers, the customers who lose but are on 2% (the ones who deposit thousands of pounds each week and who keep the traders in the manner to which they've become accustomed) in order to fund a 75% price cut for the cheats, fast picture merchants, and traders (quite legally I hasten to add) whose every other bet reduces the commission they pay. I wonder why they've never done that.
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Ron Pillock Joined: 11 Nov 09
Replies: 255 06 Aug 10 10:57 Until someone takes them to court Betfair can continue to make up the rules as they go along. Well they do own the website, Ron. |
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The Calculator is spot on. If PC payers want everyone charged the same why do they never call for all winners to be charged a miserly 22.5% of their profits and nothing else.
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Marksman.
Joined: 13 Jul 10 Replies: 39 06 Aug 10 10:41 catfloppo, whats not fair about everyone being charged at the same rate? Well they are but this leads to those with a particularly high ration of winning/losing bets to pay less of their overall profit back in commission. The pc addresses this for the most extreme cases. Nevertheless pc payers still pay less commission than everyone else. |
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It surprises me that the Premium Charge has such support amongst Betfair's customers. With being so new here, I have no idea how well received it was when it was implemented. Where people shouting out, "This is the charge that we have been waiting for. Thankyou Betfair!"
Or, perhaps, there was an outcry of people opposed to it, but now, all these people have been banned from the forum (on some unlikely pretext). I really don't know. But I have been on the other exchange for years, and on their forum they go on about it all the time, and site it as the main reason for leaving here in the 1st place. |
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Before anyone asks, I have come to Betfair for the ante post horse racing markets, which are ill served on the other exchange. I am only using Betfair for that. So, it will take me years before I have played in more than 250 markets and incurred the charge.
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Well, I for one don't support it as such. I don't agree with some of the detail. However the principle is entirely logical and sensible. I have done well out of betfair and it irritates me when people attempt to discredit them with inaccurate propoganda.
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Too much focus on fairness etc. Betfair are a business, and thus do it to maximise their profitability. They figure with no real competition, they can jack up commission levels and there's no alternative. Entirely sensible economics, ebay did the same thing for example.
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Catflappo, if someone wins 500 a week on betfair and pays premium charge (and is not a fast pic, insider, etc) and someone who wins 1000 a week doesn't pay the charge, is this logical and sensible?
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Yes. The person winning 1000 will still be paying at least twice as much commission.
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Marksman....The reason your now able to bet on Betfair Ante Post is because some many guys have left because of the PC. Its a lot less competitve now with loads of £2 bets holding up the book percentage. A few years ago these were 100s
As for the guys now who are happy with the PC most are LAYERS who are now laying the lowest odds they ever layed on Betfair as lots of guys have just gave up. Nowdays like they say in the Racing Post when you take the normal 5% commission of most of us into account we now get better odds with the Bookies. I didn't most of my Ante Post football bets with the bookies this year. They were simpley better and were willing to take them for bigger stakes than you can get on here. The liquilty is now gone in a lot of Betfair markets now whether its the PC or just hard time who knows.......who cares...thats life now on Betfair....Cheers |
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Bobsievier has said it all "AVOCADO" is a vegetable..and like most vegetables is pretty unpalatable .Seems to have a connection with manure?
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fvck you motherfvcker
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Yup. Take a typical market, Spurs-ManCity. Betfair atm has 2.52 - 3.45 - 3.10
After 3%, that's 2.47 - 3.38 - 3.04 (103.0% market) Pinnacle has 2.44 - 3.46 - 3.12 (101.9% market) Top market price 2.53 - 3.50 - 3.12 (100.1% market) (sbo/extrabet/pinnacle) Even with 3% commission, better than most have, betfair has worse prices than pinnacle. On top of aht, Betfair almost never has the best price in football on any outcome of any market ..... and that's before they clobber you with premium charge. |
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they must have better prices in a few markets
i usually see their C/S prices are much more competitive? |
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ps no doubt I'll be banned for posting that :-)
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baconONtoast,
Youre comparing apples with oranges. If a bookie's overround is 101.9% then that's 1.9% on every single bet. Back Spurs or City then close out your position even if the market hasn't moved and you'll have done 1.9% of your cash. Betfair doesn't charge per bet. It charges per market. 3% per market = 3% per bet only if you have one bet. I'll bet most people who pay the premium charge don't just have a single bet and let it run. If people could make more money betting elsewhere (if there were bookies who charged 1.9% per market, not per bet, or if there were other exchanges which actually had losing customers that you could win from) then no one would ever complain about the premium charge because no one would pay it. |
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I suppose traders need to use Betfair but if you're just a punter then there might be other options. I've heard some bookies take quit high stakes bets.
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*quite
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"This is a classic thread. Why dont betfair just charge 5% flat commission instead? A great idea: more than double prices for your best customers, the customers who lose but are on 2% (the ones who deposit thousands of pounds each week and who keep the traders in the manner to which they've become accustomed) in order to fund a 75% price cut for the cheats, fast picture merchants, and traders (quite legally I hasten to add) whose every other bet reduces the commission they pay. I wonder why they've never done that"
The Calculator, how long have you worked for betfair or how much have they paid you to come up with that crap? And do feel free to try and explain how someone can cheat "quite legally"  I've heard plenty of complete and utter bullsh1te on here, but that has to go down as some of the biggest I've ever heard. Unless you are a complete mug, (and yes, there are plenty of those admittedly) it is perfectly possible for just about anyone to hit the premium charge. Only an utter moron would try to argue that cheats, traders or fast picture people only get affected. If you are a market maker, straight gambler, position taker, a normal person who has a decent run, a newcomer who has no winning strategy but simply gets lucky to start with, a reckless gambler who ups his stakes, or just about any other category you could name, it is quite easy for you to be clobbered by this tax. Sorry to introduce a bit of reality to you, but that is a fact. Do a statistical program if you don't believe it. Just as a small example, you could have 10 big winning bets followed by 10 big losing ones and pay a fortune, or you could have 10 big losing bets followed by 10 big winning ones and pay f*** all. That's fair? Well, according to the PC defender in chief Feck, that's perfectly okay and not discriminatory in any way (oh, and lmao at the idea that cheats would be put off and everyone would benefit by them paying 20%+ of their profits instead of 5%+, with the rest going to betfair) |
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People shoud move their money over to the DAQ. No Premium Charge there.
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Turtleshead, the people who are lucky enough to have 10 big winning bets before 10 losing ones will be vastly in profit even after the premium charge, whereas the people who have 10 losing bets first will probably give up and never get the winning bets. But even if they persevered, the scenario would be odds on to reverse and both groups would pay the same over time.
I think The Calculator is spot on, personally. Why should one set of BF users (gamblers) pay far more for the facilities they use, than another set who use far more of those facilities (traders)? |
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If I'm placing bets pre kick off and letting them run without trading out, will I still have to pay PC if I'm making regular profit and paying less than 20% commission?
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*generating less than 20% commission.
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It's a myth trotted out by Betfair apologists that only traders get hit with the PC.
I'm not a trader, but I have paid thousands in PC. |
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I hate the fact that Betfair have introduced this charge. There's nothing left for Gamblers to aspire to if they now know that they will be penalised for winning.
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Btw, in my post above "vastly in profit" is used in the context of camparing one group to another.
I can't imagine long term gamblers having to pay the PC, I know I will never pay it and I'm on here 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Maybe Avocado and I am (above), you can predict the future? You would have to have one hell of an ability to predict the future to be paying less than 20% comm' as a gambler. I've no doubt it's possible short term on odds-on shots, but long term no way. |
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Trev, before the world cup I had only generated 10 percent commission. I lost a few bets in the World Cup so the amount of commission I've generated should have gone up a bit now. Before the World Cup my profit was about 10 percent of turnover I think. Not sure what it is now. I haven't been given PC charge because I've bet in less than 250 markets. I think I've got about 65 bets left before I can be considered for it.
These figures are from a relatively short spell. I started making decent profits towards the end of 2009. Before that I hadn't used Betfair much. All my bets are backing short odds. |
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Or laying long odds.
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Might do less of the laying this season though and just back stuff.
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Have you guys worked out the edge you would need as a position taker in order to be attracting long-term pc?
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Catflappo, according to my calc's anyone with a huge 15% edge would be paying 19% commission.
Avo, I think your stats are way out. If you've turned over say 100k and made 10% profit you've more than likely paid 27.5% in commission. If you're backing 1.1 shots and haven't had many hits yet it will be less. I've had a few beers though, so you can pick me up on my figures :) |