Don't get me started on cricket. It's another sport (did I say sport, on radio a few days ago it was described by a suit as just like any other enterprise when it comes to opportunities for making money)that's lost its way and is turning its back on its traditions and traditional supporters. Football will still exist in parks and back streets long after the Premiership circus is dead, because at its very essence there is a simply game that no authority can control.

Yes, of the many problems racing faces is its reliance on gambling for funding, but it is a high cost sport. I can't immediately think of another sport so in debt to gambling.

Lori makes a good point about the structure and that could be equally a unique handicap. There is no competition type of championship, relegation/promotion twist to get bystanders involved - but the conundrum of distance, going and track characteristics keeps us searching for the answer. Three year old horses who race a few times, bag a couple of group 1s and are whisked away to stud is on one level bemusing and insulting, as the memory dims and blood lines are all that remain. Part of my love of jumps is the graduation and annual re-appearance of its stars seeking more glory (no flat horse can outshine Desert Orchid or Red Rum).  Endless class 6 aw rubbish is a mindless edge-of-the-abyss event that only gambling makes sense of. But gambling is easy today with the internet and poker proliferation, that horse racing has lost its unique selling point.

So its July, my flat hcap ratings system is bringing in the money, but its tugid stuff that I don't watch and my heart longs for jumping (in it's winter form), but my soul just wants to shiver on the slopes of Larkhill because it's pure.

(end of rant, time for bed)

But do you not understand that those "traditions and traditional supporters" that its "turning its back on" are a dying breed, just like in horse racing. And cricket is moving with the times - yes some test cricket lovers may be left behind, but look at all the bums on seats T20 gets, then look at a test cricket match with only 1/4 seats used. Its about moving on to please peoples needs.. all these sports have moved on, horse racing just hasnt.

And you can argue that its a great sport etc etc, but its pretty obvious people are voting with their feet.

The difference with Racing(to its followers) compared with other sports is betting, any so called fan(outside working actually in it) has it as his PRIMARY interest, ie his knowledge MAY bring him monetary reward for his endeavours,
Compare this to other sports where gambling(although a part of it) is NOT THE MAIN REASON why the follow it. Racing is dependent on the gambling pound for its funding whilst other sports are not and thats what gives it a unique place amongst the others and makes it hard imo to make a direct comparison, thats why i would go along with the Woodbine experience and try and make it intellectual and appeal to the male over 25 bracket who might have a few bob compared to the 18yo who certainly hasnt.
id cut the fixture list sooner rather than later...........

Totewin Deduction 13.5%
Toteplace Deduction 18%
Toteexacta Deduction 26%
Totejackpot Deduction 29%
Toteplacepot Deduction 27%
Totequadpot Deduction 26%
Totetrifecta Deduction 26%
Toteswinger Deduction 26%
Totescoop6 Deduction 30% from each pool
Totesuper7 Deduction 30% from each pool

The top UK flat race today and it's not even part of the Tote's flagship Saturday bet: the Scoop 6!

The Knight

Part of getting older...and wiser..is that we now know what we would have liked to have known when we were younger, but now we know we can't seem to get ourselves heard. Which is why we are entitled to a rant now and again. And I agree with you about the relief of having a reasoned, interesting debate for once. The general forum was a lot better at one time with more threads that provided food for thought but alas, they are all too rare now. That's what comes with dumbing down I'm afraid. Loud voices drown out the quieter ones.

I'm off to Ascot so I don't have enough time now to reply at length but I would like to say that some structural change to race programming is necessary. A narrative seems to be the jargon but I would prefer to use the term simplification.

The race programme must seem like a bowl of spaghetti to newbies with all the strands intertwined, no beginning and no end, the complexity of the different types of race and class, the jargon used by those in the know, all this creates a barrier to entry. This is where the game must look for the first positive changes. I'll come back with my thoughts at a later stage.

Yes it does offer the quick fix, the problem lies where it is boring. Claimers and handicaps are boring. 7/8 runner races are boring. 3mile chases with 4 runners are boring - and with respect to jumping absolutely nothing happens for the first 2 and a half miles unless your horse falls. Less meetings would mean less low grade racing, the better the grade the less boring it becomes, who the fork cares who wins a claimer at Southwell you know, nobody cares. However, the bookies want more meetings and pay the BHA through levy so the BHA say yes no problem we'll have more meetings.

What you have to do is stand out of your own shoes and into someone who knows very little, then look at Lingfield/Bath etc and see if its exciting. Someone said betting is all horse racing has to attract people - fair enough - now step into a newcomers shoes and try pick the winner of the 4-40 at Newcastle, the first five in the betting of an 11 runner race have form reading, 13231-4, 220605, 09-8085, 710822, 8-72647. Try work that out, knowing nothing about the sport - its too hard so the younger person will give up and see football only has 3 outcomes and he understands the form because its easy to see 1-0, 2-0, etc and it has a pattern to it (i.e a league).

I think Lori's idea of leagues if you like is a good idea, but they just have to work out how to not make it boring for the general public. While fans now would never think of it being boring, just step out of your shoes, its a specialist minority sport that has done nothing to come up to speed with new customers like the other sports have. These specialists are now old and dying off - and the next generation see other sports are easier to bet on/understand. Also think of it like this - how many people does the 3rd division in English football get, not many I'd guess, now compare the quality of racing and you see that its nearly 3rd division stuff every day, bar the obvious Cheltenham, Ascot who will always bring people out. But theyve even over killed Cheltenham with the 4th day so theres less quality racing and more handicaps.

Theres no way of changing that view from the young generation once you have all this racing, which is low grade, meaningless and boring. (All only IMO of course - I'm 22). Add to the fact thats someone said its £30 to get in, to see sh!te racing, no one my age is going to pay that.

Just like test cricket, some old lovers of the game may get left behind - but then look at the levy going down every year, theyre hardly doing any good for the sport. My idea of fixes would be, less meetings, have a limit on how bad horses can be - nothing wrong with saying a horse isnt good enough to be on  a race course, cheaper to get in, lower food etc as to leave people not feeling robbed, bring picture speeds at home to level with SIS so again people dont feel robbed, put more effort into cleaning up the sport so people dont feel like theyve been conned out of their money. The problem with not understanding the sport fully is that people will always want to blame being conned/robbed rather than blaming their lack of knowledge, but horse racing only lends itself to that idea with drifters being given quiet rides and picture speeds from home.

I often frequent Chester,Haydock and York and from what I have seen these courses are doing as well as ever with 10s of thousands turning up whenever I have been......Personally I think racing should do away with the levy board and whenever a bet is struck that course takes the cut and so on and prize money becomes self-funding obviously the net effect alot of the also ran courses will shut down.

Doyler1987 J - You say racing is "boring"......but solving the "puzzle" for each race is not .......it is what makes it "satisfying"!

You gave the 4.40 race as a difficult race to "work out".....but was it?

Selection Odds Stake(£) Bid type Placed Profit/loss(£)
Celtic Sultan  13.50 2.00 Back 24-Jul-10 16:22  -2.00
Celtic Sultan  17.80 15.00 Lay 24-Jul-10 16:33  15.00
Espero  10.50 3.00 Back 24-Jul-10 16:21  -3.00
Eton Rifles  4.10 6.00 Back 24-Jul-10 16:20  -6.00
Lucky Dance * 15.53 32.00 Lay   32.00
Roker Park  6.80 4.00 Back 24-Jul-10 16:20  -4.00
Skyfire  7.20 2.00 Back 24-Jul-10 16:22  12.40
*Average odds: On  Off  Back subtotal: -2.60
Lay subtotal: 47.00
Market subtotal: 44.40
Commission @ 3.2%: 1.42
Net Market Total: 42.98
 

 
Profit and Loss is shown net of commission. 
All times are UKT 
? 
  unless otherwise stated.

=============================================================

So basically you want to change things re the types of races etc......just because YOU CAN'T WORK CERTAIN RACE TYPES OUT!

You don't like handicap races...........by sounds of it you don't or can't solve the puzzle of them.....and

DFCIRONMAN its nothing personal with me and handicaps, I like racing - I'm involved with the racing industry - its just an opinion that my generation finds the lesser meetings "boring." Boring probably a harsh word and its no surprise people dont like it, but its just that my age group dont find it interesting to watch? Thats probably the best way to describe it. What reason do people have to watch? You missed the point completely, you obviously know stuff about racing - I was talking from a person who doesnt so step into their shoes, its a very hard sport to understand. And instead of teaching newcomers the oldies are far more likely to make fun of them or pass them off as a mug.

I never said get rid of handicaps, and theres nothing wrong with the high quality end of racing.

I have visions of people saying stuff to the BHA and them just turning around and saying "Youre wrong, our sport is fantastic, lets not change anything, were better than you and other sports." Someone tell me why the levy keeps on falling then? Because if horse racing was healthy and a "better" sport than others, why is it deceasing every year? The younger generation dont care for the sport, and it seems the older generation arent putting it on the right path either. So I dont know or understand at all, and give up.

If horse racing isnt so much a sport as betting medium, its hardly surprising its share is declining with more gambling opportinities coming to marketplace. if that is the case it has more in common with poker or bingo than with say cricket or football

(league tables, knockout trials)

For the record, I'm not the oldest person in this thread, but I was betting horses in 1987 so it's not just something that appeals to young people.

I don't find it boring as such, I find it pointless unless it's a massively important race. I can however watch two random idiots play tennis in the last round of qualifying, because they're playing for a reason. I can't be bothered to watch a random horse race with four figure prize money though, what on Earth are they racing for?

Brendan's point is a good one imo, except in poker or bingo there aren't external factors that mean some people know more than you.

Something I nearly mentioned before, and that I think is important is that virtual racing is BETTER THAN 90% of real racing to gamble on (or at least soon will be when they get commentaries and graphics that aren't out of the 1980s). I realise that statement will disgust real racing fans, but take a deep breath and think about why I've said it.

You have the same adreneline rush as a real racing except the form lines are true. If you isolate factors in virtual racing, you can price the races up accordingly. There's a lot of skill involved believe it or not, although it's better suited to bots.

Real racing should obviously be better than this as more of an art form than exact maths, however one of the major factors is "Is this trainer/jockey/owner at it?" and that's a huge turn off.

I'm not advocating people flock to virtual racing, just pointing out that without a reason for the horses to race, the connections won't have any reasons to win races.

therein lies your conundrum

The Gambling Prevalence survey of 2007 showed that 17% of adults bet on horses up from 13% in 1999. This surprised me somewhat, both the % and the increase. Taken together with the drop in levy and forecast for it to drop further, and bookmakers views that racing represents a decling share of turnover and gross take, I can only assume that things have changed since 2007.

Rough figures, but 17% is about 7m adults and if the gross take from racing is £1000m then on average people are losing about £140 pa gambling on the horses. I wonder if the decline is in both numbers and amount lost on average. Getting a handle on the distinction would be helpful.

If racecourse attendances are 3% up so far this year (after a period in decline) and if attendances are just under 6m pa it seesm that the average person who bets on horses attends 1 meeting on average each year. I think its pretty obvious thsat whilst getting more people to "come racing" is a primary objective it aint going to solve racing's financial crisis.

I should think getting people to actually go to the track is a minor consideration too, in fact it didn't even occur to me to try.

You do need people to watch it though. The racing channel on sky turned off a year or two ago, I later learned that was because it was packaged with Setanta. It's mind blowing to me that they'd charge for it on its own though, how can you try to improve something that many can't be bothered with by making them pay to see it!

By that time I admit I was betting very infrequently on horses anyway, but I would back the occasional "tip" if I thought the source was someone smart enough not to be a big loser and I fancied some entertainment. I didn't want to pay extra for the priveledge though.

As I understand it there is another channel on sky that is free. I never know which is which and I'm not going to mess about working out whether I can watch a race or not before I bet, I just assume I can't.

You might think I'm being tight. That I'm certainly not. I imagine my sky bill is in the top percentile thanks to all the stuff I end up betting on. Paying extra for horses was just one tenner too far.

Ok, then that's not the issue I guess (My immediate response was that I can't get the books to take a bet, but I'm not representative of the non-watching public in that instance)

So, W.H ill moving telephone betting off-shore will reduce the levy by a further £3.5m bring their total company reduction in levy to £6m by moving.(RP p13 today) "No intention of paying levy until there's a level playing field" says Topping. By that I guess he means a bigger contribution from the exchanges, thereby justifying the decision on a false premise i.e. that exchanges are somehow behaving unfairly. Even more reason why racing needs to establish a direct line of contact with punters and not rely on the bookmakers for their co-operation. There is too much at stake for racing and it's gonads are in the squeezers.

BF pay about £7m in levy so that equates to gross take of £70m = commission. 1% of that =£700k I guess.

What would joe public make of the Sussex Stakes? Group 1 race worth £180k to the winner attracts only 7 runners including a pace maker, just to see the odds-on fav produced to win a bit cosily (nice ride for those who appreciate such things). No wonder the Grand National remains the nation's favourite betting race.