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Just emailed Betfair regarding delays on horseracing in-running - the email took me half an hour to compose and I got this reply: Thank you for your e-mail.
I have attached our rules and regulations below which relate to in-play markets. Please note that we also introduce a betting delay time which will reduce any advantages some customers may get by having a faster live feed or by being at the actual track. They will still need to wait 5 seconds or more for there bets to be placed on the exchange.
1. MANAGING MARKETS IN-PLAY
etc
Btw the cvnts have took 27k of premium charge off me for this wonderful service.
I have attached our rules and regulations below which relate to in-play markets. Please note that we also introduce a betting delay time which will reduce any advantages some customers may get by having a faster live feed or by being at the actual track. They will still need to wait 5 seconds or more for there bets to be placed on the exchange.
1. MANAGING MARKETS IN-PLAY
etc
Btw the cvnts have took 27k of premium charge off me for this wonderful service.
Show More
Do Betfair only listen to their big customers?
No, they don't listen to any of their customers.
No, they don't listen to any of their customers.
Im probably coming across all 'outraged from tunbridge wells' but when youve spent half an hour writing an email and you get a reply from someone who hasnt even read it its a bit galling.
Think yourself lucky you got a reply, I wrote to them on 23rd May and still waiting for a reply :~(
noodles
post your letter up here and let the forum answer for them
post your letter up here and let the forum answer for them
Dear Sir
I am writing to complain about the current situation with betting in running from SIS tracks and the huge advantage enjoyed by track players.
In your last forum chat it was stated that the track playing advantage was negated by slow internet. However, having spoken to players that have left our exchange shop to go to the course I know for a fact that tracks like Leicester and Wolverhampton etc have internet that is equally as good as one would get at home.
This means people at the track are seeing things three seconds ahead of users on SIS and 4 seconds ahead of people on ATR. I don't understand how this is considered acceptable. If people are betting in running on football there is a five second or longer delay so that people can't be fleeced by those at the venue who have already seen a goal for example.
Why is this considered ok for horseracing? A horse crossing the line in front is as clear cut as a goal in football, in fact more so.
You appear to suspend races virtually 'as live' on SIS and yet we know we are three seconds behind.
I feel this is a very short sighted attitude by Betfair and I would like some explanation as to why you think it is acceptable. Any publicity about the amounts these people are winning is surely bad publicity for Betfair.
Also, with the huge amounts being won by track players (100k a month doesn't seem to be that abnormal incredibly) I am concerned this will see the premium charge being increased.
I totally understand that the idea of exchange shop punters complaining about delays is probably seen as hypocritical or sour grapes but we have never, ever enjoyed an advantage like the one the current track players have.
Is it not possible to speed up the pictures being used on BF live video - and if ATR or SIS are proving a hindrance to this should it not be publicised?
Thanks you for your time.
----------------------------------
satisfactory reply?
Thank you for your e-mail.
I have attached our rules and regulations below which relate to in-play markets. Please note that we also introduce a betting delay time which will reduce any advantages some customers may get by having a faster live feed or by being at the actual track. They will still need to wait 5 seconds or more for there bets to be placed on the exchange.
I am writing to complain about the current situation with betting in running from SIS tracks and the huge advantage enjoyed by track players.
In your last forum chat it was stated that the track playing advantage was negated by slow internet. However, having spoken to players that have left our exchange shop to go to the course I know for a fact that tracks like Leicester and Wolverhampton etc have internet that is equally as good as one would get at home.
This means people at the track are seeing things three seconds ahead of users on SIS and 4 seconds ahead of people on ATR. I don't understand how this is considered acceptable. If people are betting in running on football there is a five second or longer delay so that people can't be fleeced by those at the venue who have already seen a goal for example.
Why is this considered ok for horseracing? A horse crossing the line in front is as clear cut as a goal in football, in fact more so.
You appear to suspend races virtually 'as live' on SIS and yet we know we are three seconds behind.
I feel this is a very short sighted attitude by Betfair and I would like some explanation as to why you think it is acceptable. Any publicity about the amounts these people are winning is surely bad publicity for Betfair.
Also, with the huge amounts being won by track players (100k a month doesn't seem to be that abnormal incredibly) I am concerned this will see the premium charge being increased.
I totally understand that the idea of exchange shop punters complaining about delays is probably seen as hypocritical or sour grapes but we have never, ever enjoyed an advantage like the one the current track players have.
Is it not possible to speed up the pictures being used on BF live video - and if ATR or SIS are proving a hindrance to this should it not be publicised?
Thanks you for your time.
----------------------------------
satisfactory reply?
Thank you for your e-mail.
I have attached our rules and regulations below which relate to in-play markets. Please note that we also introduce a betting delay time which will reduce any advantages some customers may get by having a faster live feed or by being at the actual track. They will still need to wait 5 seconds or more for there bets to be placed on the exchange.
Sounds like sour grapes to me. You weren't complaining when the shop players were the quickest in the market and ahead of the TV players but when someone leapfrogs your speed edge you now complain about unfair it all is.
All's fair in love, war and Betfair. The track players aren't cheating they just want the quickest possible way of getting the information that's already in the public domain.
What would you like Betfair to do about it? Ban in running?
All's fair in love, war and Betfair. The track players aren't cheating they just want the quickest possible way of getting the information that's already in the public domain.
What would you like Betfair to do about it? Ban in running?
They could suspend the races live is that too much to ask?
Its not sour grapes I just dont agree with people making these huge amounts with very little skill. My profits have been consistent for the last 30 months.
Should they have the expense of sending an employee to every race course or just suspend everything half a furlong out?
For an easy tax free £1,200,000 a year perhaps you should go to the tracks?
At the moment im happy with the easy life - but that doesnt make whats going on fair. Its an absolute racket.
Some big winners from our shop could very well switch to the track in the winter and once theyve done it I doubt they will return.
Some big winners from our shop could very well switch to the track in the winter and once theyve done it I doubt they will return.
Well you can't be doing too bad if you prefer the easy life to an easy tax free £1,200,000 a year going to the tracks.
I am surprised you are posting on here, noodles?
How many sis players complained on here and to sis/ atr when atr extra was being broadcast at the same speed as sis?
If those currently making 100k per month on track are devoid of skill, surely that would mean a skillfull player could earn double or treble that amount?
How many sis players complained on here and to sis/ atr when atr extra was being broadcast at the same speed as sis?
If those currently making 100k per month on track are devoid of skill, surely that would mean a skillfull player could earn double or treble that amount?
Im not saying anyone can win 100k a month - im just saying these sorts of amounts are not abnormal. I dont play to big stakes so would be unlikely to win that much.
Well I've never been to an exchange shop or played in running on course, so can't comment on that. However, I think the point you make is a fair one. If the playing field is not level, it's not fair. However, I'm not sure exactly what Betfair can do about it. If you put in a 5 second delay, then that applies to everyone and those on course are still ahead of the game.
On the reply that Betfair (no)helpdesk) sent you, I am not surprised. Only written to them a few times over the years and the one consistent thing over those years has been just how poor the relies have been. Betfair are NEVER at fault, so that's always their first stance. After that, they usually prove that they don't understand how the exchange works, or that anyone uses it in a way other than putting on a simple win bet. The concept of trading and the like is completely beyond their understanding.
A few years ago I wrote asking them to explain how an in-running lay back had been left unmatched despite odds many ticks shorter had been matched. The reply told me that it was probably to do with the 5 second delay in in-running bets. (On Horse Racing!!)
On the reply that Betfair (no)helpdesk) sent you, I am not surprised. Only written to them a few times over the years and the one consistent thing over those years has been just how poor the relies have been. Betfair are NEVER at fault, so that's always their first stance. After that, they usually prove that they don't understand how the exchange works, or that anyone uses it in a way other than putting on a simple win bet. The concept of trading and the like is completely beyond their understanding.
A few years ago I wrote asking them to explain how an in-running lay back had been left unmatched despite odds many ticks shorter had been matched. The reply told me that it was probably to do with the 5 second delay in in-running bets. (On Horse Racing!!)
only the unskilled have need to play in the last furlong imo and would be more than happy if betfair suspended ir at the furlong marker......from the few big players I've come across they tend to take position as the race begins to take shape 3f to 2f out and expect to make 2k to 6k daily which is possible if you put the work in and none of them are track players.
Seems to me you're more worried about losing customers than levelling the playing field. Not likely to get much sympathy on here complaining that others now have a better advantage than you do, they're doing nothing different than you did when setting up the exchange shop just looking to give themselves the best edge going for in running.
Spot on massive
...You weren't complaining when the shop players were the quickest in the market and ahead of the TV players
...You weren't complaining when the shop players were the quickest in the market and ahead of the TV players
Ghetto Joe I didnt set up an exchange shop I just work in one.
Secondly ive only been going for 2 and a half years hardly the golden period for an advantage on SIS.
Thirdly if SIS users cant discuss delays etc without being accused of self interest who can discuss it? We are the main players in the market.
Btw I have so much self interest I boycotted leicester on monday despite a feed.
The self interest thing amuses me no end because im sure im known among other ir players as saying too much on the forum. ie dont reveal this, dont reveal that, dont mention delays etc etc
Which one is it self interest or giving away too much info lol.
Regardless of what anyone thinks no one has answered the questions why arent the races suspended live to protect users and what is the point of a 1 second delay if the vast majority are 3 or 4 seconds behind?
Secondly ive only been going for 2 and a half years hardly the golden period for an advantage on SIS.
Thirdly if SIS users cant discuss delays etc without being accused of self interest who can discuss it? We are the main players in the market.
Btw I have so much self interest I boycotted leicester on monday despite a feed.
The self interest thing amuses me no end because im sure im known among other ir players as saying too much on the forum. ie dont reveal this, dont reveal that, dont mention delays etc etc
Which one is it self interest or giving away too much info lol.
Regardless of what anyone thinks no one has answered the questions why arent the races suspended live to protect users and what is the point of a 1 second delay if the vast majority are 3 or 4 seconds behind?
Ditto the above replies.
sour grapes indeed.
if it were that easy to win 100k per month at the track then i would be there today.
sour grapes indeed.
if it were that easy to win 100k per month at the track then i would be there today.
any more sour grapes i dont think weve established that possibility yet
Try sending the email again and request attention from a senior support advisor. Carbon copy a few names at the gambling commission and the BHA. You could also cc Greg Wood / Lydia etc. I know the GC are totally useless but one never knows. Maybe even try cc to your local mp / euro mp(s).
gl.
....I am away to the track to make my fortune :)
gl.
....I am away to the track to make my fortune :)
I'm pretty sure here have been some fairly prominent examples when it has been assumed the big customers got their way. Can't remember the full details but something to do with the tie in cricket rings a bell.
the fact that these delays are happening in ir - horseracing, gives any new punter trying to play at home no chance... therefore its a massive damage to liquidy + its become sharks eating sharks and likly more + more will go out the game.
cheers muqbil - I did send it again and they replied saying theyd forward it to the Helpdesk duty manager and to be patient for a reply which is fair enough.
What price a sour grapes gets thrown in?
What price a sour grapes gets thrown in?
heynoodles Joined: 18 Jan 05
Replies: 1800 02 Jun 10 20:00
Dear Sir
I am writing to complain about the current situation with betting in running from SIS tracks and the huge advantage enjoyed by track players.
In your last forum chat it was stated that the track playing advantage was negated by slow internet. However, having spoken to players that have left our exchange shop to go to the course I know for a fact that tracks like Leicester and Wolverhampton etc have internet that is equally as good as one would get at home.
This means people at the track are seeing things three seconds ahead of users on SIS and 4 seconds ahead of people on ATR. I don't understand how this is considered acceptable. If people are betting in running on football there is a five second or longer delay so that people can't be fleeced by those at the venue who have already seen a goal for example.
Why is this considered ok for horseracing? A horse crossing the line in front is as clear cut as a goal in football, in fact more so.
You appear to suspend races virtually 'as live' on SIS and yet we know we are three seconds behind.
I feel this is a very short sighted attitude by Betfair and I would like some explanation as to why you think it is acceptable. Any publicity about the amounts these people are winning is surely bad publicity for Betfair.
Also, with the huge amounts being won by track players (100k a month doesn't seem to be that abnormal incredibly) I am concerned this will see the premium charge being increased.
I totally understand that the idea of exchange shop punters complaining about delays is probably seen as hypocritical or sour grapes but we have never, ever enjoyed an advantage like the one the current track players have.
Is it not possible to speed up the pictures being used on BF live video - and if ATR or SIS are proving a hindrance to this should it not be publicised?
Thanks you for your time.
That email took you half and hour to compose?
Replies: 1800 02 Jun 10 20:00
Dear Sir
I am writing to complain about the current situation with betting in running from SIS tracks and the huge advantage enjoyed by track players.
In your last forum chat it was stated that the track playing advantage was negated by slow internet. However, having spoken to players that have left our exchange shop to go to the course I know for a fact that tracks like Leicester and Wolverhampton etc have internet that is equally as good as one would get at home.
This means people at the track are seeing things three seconds ahead of users on SIS and 4 seconds ahead of people on ATR. I don't understand how this is considered acceptable. If people are betting in running on football there is a five second or longer delay so that people can't be fleeced by those at the venue who have already seen a goal for example.
Why is this considered ok for horseracing? A horse crossing the line in front is as clear cut as a goal in football, in fact more so.
You appear to suspend races virtually 'as live' on SIS and yet we know we are three seconds behind.
I feel this is a very short sighted attitude by Betfair and I would like some explanation as to why you think it is acceptable. Any publicity about the amounts these people are winning is surely bad publicity for Betfair.
Also, with the huge amounts being won by track players (100k a month doesn't seem to be that abnormal incredibly) I am concerned this will see the premium charge being increased.
I totally understand that the idea of exchange shop punters complaining about delays is probably seen as hypocritical or sour grapes but we have never, ever enjoyed an advantage like the one the current track players have.
Is it not possible to speed up the pictures being used on BF live video - and if ATR or SIS are proving a hindrance to this should it not be publicised?
Thanks you for your time.
That email took you half and hour to compose?
I took half an hour so I wouldnt make too many mistakes like ....
half and hour (imo)
half and hour (imo)
so noodles, what steps do you take to ensure that customers in your exchange shop don't have a speed advantage over tv players at home?
To be fair to bf tony calvin contacted me. Nothing else to add.
noodles. This carping on about track players is a bit like our dear capitalist, free marketeering banksters who required a state handout coz they lost at punting!
You have been living off innocent recreational sofa punters for years and now someone is going to eat you. Unfortunately you are not ina position to blackmail as the Banks did to the Government, and Betfair won't bail you out.
Anyways you are not totally correct about who is fleecing you. It's mainly people sat at home and in coroprate offices who are watching instant pics via BT, no satellites involved.
I also think that you have been bubbled up about whoever says he is on-course getting 1 £1M pa. If anyones doingit they are off-course. The technology exists. BT do the feeds and if you think someone aint watching you are dreaming[;)]
My advice is sell or give away the exchange shop
You have been living off innocent recreational sofa punters for years and now someone is going to eat you. Unfortunately you are not ina position to blackmail as the Banks did to the Government, and Betfair won't bail you out.
Anyways you are not totally correct about who is fleecing you. It's mainly people sat at home and in coroprate offices who are watching instant pics via BT, no satellites involved.
I also think that you have been bubbled up about whoever says he is on-course getting 1 £1M pa. If anyones doingit they are off-course. The technology exists. BT do the feeds and if you think someone aint watching you are dreaming[;)]
My advice is sell or give away the exchange shop
No ones fleecing me, imo. And I dont have an exchange shop lol.
Your other points may be well be correct.
Your other points may be well be correct.
heynoodles 03 Jun 10 15:21
I took half an hour so I wouldnt make too many mistakes like ....
half and hour (imo)
I took half an hour so I wouldnt make too many mistakes like ....
half and hour (imo)
noodles. Sorry I didnt mean you personally but as a group the exchange shop punters are eating recreationals. I think people should recognise that the on-course mob are not the only group severely advantaged in all this.
The age of the super fast non satellite feed is here and there are few who have it. There is no technical, or commercial reason why BF couldn't get it so we can all have a go
The age of the super fast non satellite feed is here and there are few who have it. There is no technical, or commercial reason why BF couldn't get it so we can all have a go
Noodles- just as a matter of curiosity what sot of shop do you have? - or do you just mean that it's not your shop?
heynoodles 03 Jun 10 18:07
To be fair to bf tony calvin contacted me. Nothing else to add.
Did Tony Calvin give you any encouragement that things might get better in the near future ?
To be fair to bf tony calvin contacted me. Nothing else to add.
Did Tony Calvin give you any encouragement that things might get better in the near future ?
I dont want to misquote him so im going to say nothing. I think he is quite happy to discuss the subject if anyone wants to contact him.
That is fair enough noodles. Without giving anything away did you feel a bit happier after your chat ?
Not really, Doubled. Its fair to say I lost the argument.
When yo say you work in an exchange shop do you mean your employed by one ? or do you mean you trade in one?
As for the other stuff GOM is correct imo.
One interesting point is that if shop traders now have lost their edge will they empty out?
As for the other stuff GOM is correct imo.
One interesting point is that if shop traders now have lost their edge will they empty out?
Trade from one, Ratkin.
I think if every track was like lingfield or leicester than yes they would be finished but as long as there are turftv tracks then they should be able to survive (if not exactly flourish).
I think if every track was like lingfield or leicester than yes they would be finished but as long as there are turftv tracks then they should be able to survive (if not exactly flourish).
I just dont agree with people making these huge amounts with very little skill.
I said exactly this a few months ago and you said that it's a level playing field and anyone can go to an exchange shop if they so desired and that idiots shouldn't be protected.
Why the change of heart?
I said exactly this a few months ago and you said that it's a level playing field and anyone can go to an exchange shop if they so desired and that idiots shouldn't be protected.
Why the change of heart?
Lori, I dont think in my time in an exchange shop people have ever made easy money. Laying fallers, betting after the line etc. More than 2 years ago yes probably so.
The 'live' advantage over SIS is considerably more than the SIS advantage over ATR ever was, imo.
We're just going round in circles here though so I'll leave it to others to discuss if they want.
The 'live' advantage over SIS is considerably more than the SIS advantage over ATR ever was, imo.
We're just going round in circles here though so I'll leave it to others to discuss if they want.
Exchange shops I have bin in last year all were 1/3 full if that
Wot absolute tosh.
When the exchange players had racetech raw feeds, they shud have made bundles .. did they bleat then, that it was unfair ?
Did they buggery .. the amount of track-side players, has made the in-running mkts more efficient. This is what Bf want.
Move with the times.
When the exchange players had racetech raw feeds, they shud have made bundles .. did they bleat then, that it was unfair ?
Did they buggery .. the amount of track-side players, has made the in-running mkts more efficient. This is what Bf want.
Move with the times.
agree with heynoodles that the delay from live to sis is more than atr to sis, however, while the markets are now more efficient because there are many more track players there is arguably an imbalance in the liquidity levels at the business end meaning if you are playing at the track you often get poor value bets matched and rest assured there is very little free money...those winning £100k a month are very few in fact i'd say nearer £15-40k is norm and expenses are upwards of £3-6k a mth
many of the people who started out in trading shops 3-4 years ago now have moved to the tracks semi/full-time or have had to change the way they play...ie play alot further out....their earnings have dropped as their edge has been eroded but while turf is around they will always be able to play ....however, the tracks now are the new "trading rooms" with some shops having closed down or having to downscale....and it will be interesting to see how things develop over the next 6-18 mths time...imho
many of the people who started out in trading shops 3-4 years ago now have moved to the tracks semi/full-time or have had to change the way they play...ie play alot further out....their earnings have dropped as their edge has been eroded but while turf is around they will always be able to play ....however, the tracks now are the new "trading rooms" with some shops having closed down or having to downscale....and it will be interesting to see how things develop over the next 6-18 mths time...imho
I never touch in running for exactly all the reasons that are so apparent reading this thread. It's only a question of having all the edges, otherwise it is worse than pointless.
I've no doubt most people think similarly on here, and if there ever was a level field then the markets could be far busier.
As someone suggested earlier - like BF actually giving everyone a feed that was pretty much live rather than delayed.
I've no doubt most people think similarly on here, and if there ever was a level field then the markets could be far busier.
As someone suggested earlier - like BF actually giving everyone a feed that was pretty much live rather than delayed.
As pointed out on the other thread, the bookies offices all have the direct internet feed which will be 300 millisecs after live. If they have it others will have made it their business to get hold of it.
I am amazed how the exchange shop lads who have gone on-course think they are at the cutting edge. Truth is whilst they scoff their mammoth steaks there is a space ship hovering above[;)]
I am amazed how the exchange shop lads who have gone on-course think they are at the cutting edge. Truth is whilst they scoff their mammoth steaks there is a space ship ho
vering above[;)]
i watched a race on h1lls site tonight and it was ruk pictures
Noodles. This will put the exchange shops out of the game if the feeds takeover. They have the technology now
If the technology is there why is it not being used
Hopefully in the near future a true level playing field will prevail and this in running game can go to new levels
Hopefully in the near future a true level playing field will prevail and this in running game can go to new levels
how much do you all think liquidity will increase by with a level playing field throughout?
i would assume if it was in betfairs interest to provide this faster/live service they would do it!
As they are not, can we assume they make more in pc charges from the few massive players using the advantage than they would with the 5% crew betting smaller stakes?
I would think they know which is most profitable as thats how successful businesses run surely!!
i would assume if it was in betfairs interest to provide this faster/live service they would do it!
As they are not, can we assume they make more in pc charges from the few massive players using the advantage than they would with the 5% crew betting smaller stakes?
I would think they know which is most profitable as thats how successful businesses run surely!!
I'd love to have your level of optimism in BFs ability to have any sense in running a business.
Most of their decisions are atrocious so not surprised that this would be equally bad.
They've already lost a load of liquidity through various decisions.
Most of their decisions are atrocious so not surprised that this would be equally bad.
They've already lost a load of liquidity through various decisions.
have their profits dropped over the years though? (serious question as i wouldnt know)
To be honest I really don't know, but I find it hard to see how once thriving markets now with tumbleweed in comparison can be good for their profits.
Customer loyalty is a very fragile thing, particularly on the internet where a competitor is a click or two away.
Betfair have squandered any of the early loyalty they enjoyed with their ill-conceived and poorly executed "improvements" and their one size fits all management of their helpdesk. Not to mention the PC.
Punters follow the money and BF doesn't appreciate how lucky it is to still have it.
Betfair have squandered any of the early loyalty they enjoyed with their ill-conceived and poorly executed "improvements" and their one size fits all management of their helpdesk. Not to mention the PC.
Punters follow the money and BF doesn't appreciate how lucky it is to still have it.
maybe betfair don't make the call on in-running and its the liquidity providers who decide the make up of the 'food chain'!
shrewdbury 08 Jun 10 10:01
I'd love to have your level of optimism in BFs ability to have any sense in running a business.
I'm no fan of the premium charge and the overall structure of fees. But I imagine Betfair could not have been any more successful in the time frame ie past ten years. They have a virtual monopoly on exchange betting, a situation that is unlikely to change for the next ten years. If they were getting it so badly wrong this would not be the case?
I'd love to have your level of optimism in BFs ability to have any sense in running a business.
I'm no fan of the premium charge and the overall structure of fees. But I imagine Betfair could not have been any more successful in the time frame ie past ten years. They have a virtual monopoly on exchange betting, a situation that is unlikely to change for the next ten years. If they were getting it so badly wrong this would not be the case?
Be interesting to see how much "progress" they make in the next 12 months given their apathy to customers.Add to that the lack of investment in making the in running horse racing product fairer to all customers. The World Cup will provide some nice profit for Betfair but they are treading water in my opinion and the drive and energy seems to have gone out of their business.
Complacency can lead to disaster and companies with great short term growth can collapse quickly - Northern Rock is a classic example of management complacency.
Complacency can lead to disaster and companies with great short term growth can collapse quickly - Northern Rock is a classic example of management complacency.
I think Betfair published research into this for the Gambling Commission investigation that proved that inrunning betting on Betfair is fair. The number of players with fast pictures actually makes the market more efficient and fairer for at home players I think was the conclusion.
That market more efficient statement bemuses me - my friend went to back the leader approaching 2 out on SIS @ 1.3 - got matched at 1000 and then the horse duly fell.
Is this efficiency in action? You get matched at 1000 on bets where you couldnt win (apart from the once-a-year commentator error maybe)?
A couple of points from Tony Calvin now ive had time to let them sink in fully.
They feel the picture delays are an issue for ATR and RUK not them - they just manage the markets. The warnings are clear and its upto people if they still want to bet. He said he was happy to defend bf anywhere in the media over the way they manage the ir markets.
Regarding the pics on this site he didnt think the technology was there for them to be faster at present - but he added that he is not an expert in that field.
He wouldnt discuss their suspension policy but in general he felt bf are more open than most companies.
He agreed some people are winning big at the track but said plenty of people go there and lose - therefore its not easy money and unfair. That brought a wry smile because it is an argument prev used by shop players so fair do's.
Is this efficiency in action? You get matched at 1000 on bets where you couldnt win (apart from the once-a-year commentator error maybe)?
A couple of points from Tony Calvin now ive had time to let them sink in fully.
They feel the picture delays are an issue for ATR and RUK not them - they just manage the markets. The warnings are clear and its upto people if they still want to bet. He said he was happy to defend bf anywhere in the media over the way they manage the ir markets.
Regarding the pics on this site he didnt think the technology was there for them to be faster at present - but he added that he is not an expert in that field.
He wouldnt discuss their suspension policy but in general he felt bf are more open than most companies.
He agreed some people are winning big at the track but said plenty of people go there and lose - therefore its not easy money and unfair. That brought a wry smile because it is an argument prev used by shop players so fair do's.
He also said more customers complain about exchange shops than on course players, strangely enough.
More efficient ,lol, for who?
Yes certainly for those creaming off those who don't mind betting on a horse after it has already fallen.
Yes certainly for those creaming off those who don't mind betting on a horse after it has already fallen.
heynoodles 02 Jun 10 16:31
''Btw the cvnts have took 27k of premium charge off me for this wonderful service.''
Do u not have to be making a fair bit of money to pay that?
''Btw the cvnts have took 27k of premium charge off me for this wonderful service.''
Do u not have to be making a fair bit of money to pay that?
Betfair are full of sh1te. Do they really expect anyone with half a clue to believe that efficient market drivel? Are the course players paying all those expenses for the privelege of giving us true odds? Does the existence of an on course loser imply there's no advantage? A betfair boffin once claimed that there were more pre-off punters unaware they might be playing against more accomplished form students than there was ir punters unaware of the delays. That's what betfair think of us. The obviously had it too easy in the city.
As for defending ir to the media. They really stuck to their 'caveat emptor' guns (not) when DJ went to the news of the world about them taking bets on phone in votes right up to the result. No surprise that a lot of the liquidity on those events come from 'course players'. Anyone who thinks their odds were "efficient" you should be working for betfair.
As for defending ir to the media. They really stuck to their 'caveat emptor' guns (not) when DJ went to the news of the world about them taking bets on phone in votes right up to the result. No surprise that a lot of the liquidity on those events come from 'course players'. Anyone who thinks their odds were "efficient" you should be working for betfair.
A couple of points from Tony Calvin now ive had time to let them sink in fully.
They feel the picture delays are an issue for ATR and RUK not them - they just manage the markets. The warnings are clear and its upto people if they still want to bet. He said he was happy to defend bf anywhere in the media over the way they manage the ir markets.
BOLLOX - Who would benefit most from quicker pictures ? Why do ATR need to speed up their pictures ? Sounds like Betfair want to do NOWT and keep taking the commission (imo of course)
They feel the picture delays are an issue for ATR and RUK not them - they just manage the markets. The warnings are clear and its upto people if they still want to bet. He said he was happy to defend bf anywhere in the media over the way they manage the ir markets.
BOLLOX - Who would benefit most from quicker pictures ? Why do ATR need to speed up their pictures ? Sounds like Betfair want to do NOWT and keep taking the commission (imo of course)
I agree with last few posters but I think he felt shop/sis players were hypocritical using these arguments. Going by earlier posts on the thread most people agree with him.
it now betfair ten years on thinking that fair pic for all
i for one thinks fair pic for all will bring betfair to the top of the world with pic in every home real time betfair will go oh hey
but sad thing is nil had change in 10 years
fair pic for all
fair pic for all
fair pic for all
not for the few
i for one thinks fair pic for all will bring betfair to the top of the world with pic in every home real time betfair will go oh hey
but sad thing is nil had change in 10 years
fair pic for all
fair pic for all
fair pic for all
not for the few
i think it will come but when
racetech LOCKED
real time feed WHAT THIS
bbc /ch4 RIP
BETFAIR INVESTMENT ???
racetech LOCKED
real time feed WHAT THIS
bbc /ch4 RIP
BETFAIR INVESTMENT ???
frog2 Joined: 01 Feb 08
Replies: 37 09 Jun 10 07:44
I think Betfair published research into this for the Gambling Commission investigation that proved that inrunning betting on Betfair is fair. The number of players with fast pictures actually makes the market more efficient and fairer for at home players I think was the conclusion.
A conclusion reached by a mix of people who are either happy with the status quo (because it's difficult to do anything about it), or have no idea how the exchange works. This doesn't seriously affect me, as I only do football. But that truly is nonsense. People with fast pics have a massive advantage, the fact that they are competing against others with fast pics, doesn't make it fair. It's no different than saying that when plenty of people know a match is fixed and they bet on it, the fact that they are competing against each other makes it fair and efficient...
Replies: 37 09 Jun 10 07:44
I think Betfair published research into this for the Gambling Commission investigation that proved that inrunning betting on Betfair is fair. The number of players with fast pictures actually makes the market more efficient and fairer for at home players I think was the conclusion.
A conclusion reached by a mix of people who are either happy with the status quo (because it's difficult to do anything about it), or have no idea how the exchange works. This doesn't seriously affect me, as I only do football. But that truly is nonsense. People with fast pics have a massive advantage, the fact that they are competing against others with fast pics, doesn't make it fair. It's no different than saying that when plenty of people know a match is fixed and they bet on it, the fact that they are competing against each other makes it fair and efficient...
I don't bet in play, but I'm unsure what is wanted here. With Betfair being unable to provide a perfect live feed of events you are going to need a bet delay. How long a bet delay do you want, because the kind of time delay needed to protect your regular punter at home from backing fallen horses will no doubt be unacceptable to the vast majority of you, particularly in events as fleeting as horse races. And if you want a delay that stifles people at the track to enable you to pick off Joe Couch Potato's bet on the fallen horse then surely you are a hypocrite.
The argument that comes across is that people who are betting live at the event are doing something wrong. Personally I don't see it that way, the closer the market is to actual events the better. If I was betting on a sports fixture in play I'd want the prices to reflect what is actually happening, not on what my Sky TV pictures are telling me some 20 seconds behind the action.
The argument that comes across is that people who are betting live at the event are doing something wrong. Personally I don't see it that way, the closer the market is to actual events the better. If I was betting on a sports fixture in play I'd want the prices to reflect what is actually happening, not on what my Sky TV pictures are telling me some 20 seconds behind the action.
You need to read the thread again. No one is saying the track players are doing anything wrong. What we would like to see is Betfair who profit massively from in running actually appearing to care about the majority of their customers being at a disadvantage. Tony Calvin seems to think it is not Betfairs problem which is a disgrace
The fact that the pics are now coming down a super fast fibre optic rather than satellite changes things. No excuse now for the delays is there[smiley:crazy]
So what would you want Rueben- I don't think Betfair are in a position to provide perfect live pictures for every event they have in play.
I cannot even get two quid matched IP, when i want to lay off using Gruss triggers its bolloc---ks imo the way the IP markets have gone
They have had opportunities to do something about picture speeds in the past but refused to pay the price. A very short sighted approach but no great surprise there. I do not expect anything to happen with the current management team as they have one eye firmly on a flotation.
The technology has improved no end so it's probably an effort to actually deliver delayed pics. BT have 2.5GB lines, that right 2.5GB
The whole level playing field argument is complete nonsense. Firstly, there are no advantages available that are not available to everyone so how can that possibly be deemed unfair. Anyone who is making 100k per month trackside gets my utmost respect and if it were skilless and easy I suspect there would be many more people doing it.
Secondly there are allsorts of advantages, speed advantages on feeds, bots, different interfaces. Even skill and knowledge. It is simply impractical to level all these things out.
Thirdly, we don't want a level playing field!!! Those of us on here who make money do so fundamentally because the casual punter is willing to match bets with us that are weighted in our favour. We can ensure this because we have some kind of advantage over them. One, some or all of those mentioned above, maybe there are others I am unaware of.
Secondly there are allsorts of advantages, speed advantages on feeds, bots, different interfaces. Even skill and knowledge. It is simply impractical to level all these things out.
Thirdly, we don't want a level playing field!!! Those of us on here who make money do so fundamentally because the casual punter is willing to match bets with us that are weighted in our favour. We can ensure this because we have some kind of advantage over them. One, some or all of those mentioned above, maybe there are others I am unaware of.
those with the raw feed always pop up in forum to wild things up
300 ms behind live PMSL
300 ms behind live PMSL
Delays and suspensions can only ever go so far. In some sports, Betfair are regularly allowing clients to place losing bets on events which have already been determined. Which can't be right.
You mean by backing 0-0 after a goal has been scored? If someome wants to release their funds by wasting a few quid this way, as opposed to waiting until the end of the match, what's the problem?
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