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Has the PC made betting on Betfair as a serious proposition (i.e. to either make a living or make consistently good profit/side income) unworkable, or at least not worth the effort (in comparison to how it would have been with only commission to factor in)?
Would be interested to know people's views on this, especially those more experienced with the site.
Would be interested to know people's views on this, especially those more experienced with the site.
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The only reason that you have not answered however is the upside part of the argument.
Your argument assumes that you can fine tune your legitimate method to ONLY take you to 22.5% of gross paid. Of course this is not the case, and also in order to insure against future PC increases etc there is also an incentive to work on further such strategies and build up an improved all time figure over and above 22.5%.
Indeed - I dipped to 20.08% and am now at many hundreds of percent. I know others who have done similar and are nowhere near the 20% threshold now. My commission paid has gone up a serious amount (obviously) and the amount of bets and volume I am matching has as well (of course)
Also - the biggest payers I am considering are already comfortable 2% punters. So there's no further loss of earnings to betfair in commission discounts.
I'm obviously talking about real world situations that I have experienced, some first hand, some second hand. Perhaps you are too. But I can't buy into any argument of PC avoidance strategies (that we have discussed) costing betfair money c.f. people just paying premium charge. They still get their pound of flesh, if not more.
Your argument assumes that you can fine tune your legitimate method to ONLY take you to 22.5% of gross paid. Of course this is not the case, and also in order to insure against future PC increases etc there is also an incentive to work on further such strategies and build up an improved all time figure over and above 22.5%.
Indeed - I dipped to 20.08% and am now at many hundreds of percent. I know others who have done similar and are nowhere near the 20% threshold now. My commission paid has gone up a serious amount (obviously) and the amount of bets and volume I am matching has as well (of course)
Also - the biggest payers I am considering are already comfortable 2% punters. So there's no further loss of earnings to betfair in commission discounts.
I'm obviously talking about real world situations that I have experienced, some first hand, some second hand. Perhaps you are too. But I can't buy into any argument of PC avoidance strategies (that we have discussed) costing betfair money c.f. people just paying premium charge. They still get their pound of flesh, if not more.
Unless you factor in the other people (that you're betting against with your zero yield strategy)
I think its got to be factored in, hasn't it?
I think its got to be factored in, hasn't it?
Perhaps you're right, I would have thought it's factored in by way of commission generated, but perhaps not.
Another thing I 'd like to bring up:
Goodwill is worth nothing since as I say, betfair is in a position where their PC-paying customers need betfair a million times more than betfair needs them.
I could argue that the same could apply to any consistently highly profitable customers, not just PC payers. For instance someone arbing across markets with a tiny edge repeatedly could make huge profits very consistently and still pay a high level of commission.
If such a person has an annual GP of £200,000 and pays 25% of this in commission and Betfair decide that anyone earning over £100,000 need to pay at least 50% they would be just as unlikely to leave as the PC payers.
Sure this customer is far more valuable to betfair, but someone making a lot of money with (relatively) little effort isn't likely to give up because of high charges.
Another thing I 'd like to bring up:
Goodwill is worth nothing since as I say, betfair is in a position where their PC-paying customers need betfair a million times more than betfair needs them.
I could argue that the same could apply to any consistently highly profitable customers, not just PC payers. For instance someone arbing across markets with a tiny edge repeatedly could make huge profits very consistently and still pay a high level of commission.
If such a person has an annual GP of £200,000 and pays 25% of this in commission and Betfair decide that anyone earning over £100,000 need to pay at least 50% they would be just as unlikely to leave as the PC payers.
Sure this customer is far more valuable to betfair, but someone making a lot of money with (relatively) little effort isn't likely to give up because of high charges.
You could argue that, but what weight would it add to this discussion?
Depends what you mean by highly profitable. If I make betfair 1.5 million a year in commission and win 500k myself, does that make me highly profitable? Where's the grey area?
The above matters very little anyway - the basics of what I said still applies. Introduce a new platform, with lower commission, and more liquidity, and that player wouldn't be seen for dust, just like the rest of them. And that's central to what I was saying. Goodwill means nothing in this business. To lose the goodwill of a handful of talented traders/gamblers/arbers/whoever means literally diddly squat.
Depends what you mean by highly profitable. If I make betfair 1.5 million a year in commission and win 500k myself, does that make me highly profitable? Where's the grey area?
The above matters very little anyway - the basics of what I said still applies. Introduce a new platform, with lower commission, and more liquidity, and that player wouldn't be seen for dust, just like the rest of them. And that's central to what I was saying. Goodwill means nothing in this business. To lose the goodwill of a handful of talented traders/gamblers/arbers/whoever means literally diddly squat.
Imv bf do not need winners, esp. not winners of the pc paying variety. They only need winners' tissues.
I think it took them a long time to realise this.
I think it took them a long time to realise this.
I thought perhaps losers were the most important punters to Betfair? I mean if the total of everyones accounts is say 100 million pounds, and punters swap money all week resulting in most accounts being level or slightly down, Betfair would soon gobble up the whole lot by constantly taking 5% from the total, unless losers deposited much needed new money into the system to keep it topped up.
Treble_Underscore, I wasn't referring to goodwill, just to the fact that highly profitable customers could be charged more (almost) regardless of the % of commission they pay.
Someone that makes a consistent profit and earns say half a million in a year, is likely to stick around if they 'only' earn 400,000 the next year because betfair have decided on an extra charge.
This would be true whether this person's total charges are 25% of GP or 50%. The concept of 'fairness' that others have mentioned, is completely irrelevant.
Effectively PC payers are charged a % of gross profit. If the commission generated calculation was dropped and they simply looked at commission paid, then commission would literally become irrelevant to a PC payer, and he can simply state '20% of my gross profit goes to Betfair'. It's a slight simplification, but it's close to reality. Effectively then, he is no longer paying commission at all, but simply handing over a fixed% slice of the profit
There's really nothing to stop Betfair to introduce any kind of new charge they like as long as they are confident it will not have a negative impact that outweighs the increase in revenue.
Someone that makes a consistent profit and earns say half a million in a year, is likely to stick around if they 'only' earn 400,000 the next year because betfair have decided on an extra charge.
This would be true whether this person's total charges are 25% of GP or 50%. The concept of 'fairness' that others have mentioned, is completely irrelevant.
Effectively PC payers are charged a % of gross profit. If the commission generated calculation was dropped and they simply looked at commission paid, then commission would literally become irrelevant to a PC payer, and he can simply state '20% of my gross profit goes to Betfair'. It's a slight simplification, but it's close to reality. Effectively then, he is no longer paying commission at all, but simply handing over a fixed% slice of the profit
There's really nothing to stop Betfair to introduce any kind of new charge they like as long as they are confident it will not have a negative impact that outweighs the increase in revenue.
One thing it has done is stopped me being lazy or loyal.
If I can get a slightly better deal elsewhere, whereas before it was both convenient and polite to keep the bet with betfair, now I take the better deal.
It's also stopped me laying in minority markets as I'm not happy with the arrangement where I can get stuck with +1 on half the field and -1 on the other half and pay out 20% on the +1, effectively rendering my lay as a huge gamble.
I realise that in the long term I could well offset this against future charges, but with the game getting harder and myself taking some action elsewhere, I won't be paying charges forever (in fact I haven't paid them for some time now), so the last 20% I pay will never come back.
If I can get a slightly better deal elsewhere, whereas before it was both convenient and polite to keep the bet with betfair, now I take the better deal.
It's also stopped me laying in minority markets as I'm not happy with the arrangement where I can get stuck with +1 on half the field and -1 on the other half and pay out 20% on the +1, effectively rendering my lay as a huge gamble.
I realise that in the long term I could well offset this against future charges, but with the game getting harder and myself taking some action elsewhere, I won't be paying charges forever (in fact I haven't paid them for some time now), so the last 20% I pay will never come back.
iThe problem with PC is that its not about the short term gains betfair have undoubtedly made from 'efficient winning punters'.
Yes, many of them will carry on, though my understanding is that costs are rising and profits dwindling.. PC renmember comes off the 'top line' profit not the 'bottom line' as taxes do..
It is the fact that the whole of the Betfair concept as a massive concept to beat conventional bokkmaking with 'better odds' etc has been damaged... A mixed message of 10% better odds(its never really been 20% better if you took decent odds) but with 20% deducted if successful, is never going to attract the masses.
Its not that those punters would probably pay the PC , its that they all naively believe they can be winners....
Yes, many of them will carry on, though my understanding is that costs are rising and profits dwindling.. PC renmember comes off the 'top line' profit not the 'bottom line' as taxes do..
It is the fact that the whole of the Betfair concept as a massive concept to beat conventional bokkmaking with 'better odds' etc has been damaged... A mixed message of 10% better odds(its never really been 20% better if you took decent odds) but with 20% deducted if successful, is never going to attract the masses.
Its not that those punters would probably pay the PC , its that they all naively believe they can be winners....
It is the fact that the whole of the Betfair concept as a massive concept to beat conventional bokkmaking with 'better odds' etc has been damaged... A mixed message of 10% better odds(its never really been 20% better if you took decent odds) but with 20% deducted if successful, is never going to attract the masses.
But has it? Has it really? It's not like the ASA has stepped in and made BF add a rider to all their pie-in-the-sky advertising on better prices.
PC is paid by a very small % of the active accounts on here. Its not advertised, apart from by those who pay it and are not happy about it, and quite a few who pay it don't fully understand the charge.
The whole 20% better odds is pure spin anyway. P1nny advertise something similar on some markets (as they are entitled to do). The advertising of "best prices" is going on a lot, presumably to confuse the mugs about best price guaranteed, etc etc. If you shop around (I'm talking football), I think its fair to say that even using books that allow professional action, its EXTREMELY unlikely even on 2% commission to get a better price on here by more than 3-4%. If you back rags in horse races, I'm sure you could argue that the percentage is more like 50%. This is where the majority of the "better prices" come from - just like the BFSP spin. regularly its below industry SP after the 5% is borne in mind on any fancied horse - but because of the general constriction at the top of the market, something sent off at 20/1 in the last at lingfield at 80s on here that wins makes a contribution of a 300% better price, even though if you had actually wanted to get on it, your bet would have made a (possibly significant) difference to the SP.
The point though is mugs don't shop around. Its a one stop shop and they can feel happy that they are bleeding to death more slowly because of the higher prices (if they even understand that argument, which most of them don't, inevitably).
I simply can't buy the argument that the PC is going to stop them attracting new punters. Very few new customers are going to find any discussion of PC anywhere before they set up an account, and a very small % of those will ever be charged it.
But has it? Has it really? It's not like the ASA has stepped in and made BF add a rider to all their pie-in-the-sky advertising on better prices.
PC is paid by a very small % of the active accounts on here. Its not advertised, apart from by those who pay it and are not happy about it, and quite a few who pay it don't fully understand the charge.
The whole 20% better odds is pure spin anyway. P1nny advertise something similar on some markets (as they are entitled to do). The advertising of "best prices" is going on a lot, presumably to confuse the mugs about best price guaranteed, etc etc. If you shop around (I'm talking football), I think its fair to say that even using books that allow professional action, its EXTREMELY unlikely even on 2% commission to get a better price on here by more than 3-4%. If you back rags in horse races, I'm sure you could argue that the percentage is more like 50%. This is where the majority of the "better prices" come from - just like the BFSP spin. regularly its below industry SP after the 5% is borne in mind on any fancied horse - but because of the general constriction at the top of the market, something sent off at 20/1 in the last at lingfield at 80s on here that wins makes a contribution of a 300% better price, even though if you had actually wanted to get on it, your bet would have made a (possibly significant) difference to the SP.
The point though is mugs don't shop around. Its a one stop shop and they can feel happy that they are bleeding to death more slowly because of the higher prices (if they even understand that argument, which most of them don't, inevitably).
I simply can't buy the argument that the PC is going to stop them attracting new punters. Very few new customers are going to find any discussion of PC anywhere before they set up an account, and a very small % of those will ever be charged it.
I think you're wrong on that treble, though I'm not bloody-minded enough to be sure you're wrong.
Basically everyone I know gambles and they know what I do, and they'll often ask me where they should bet, or how I do it, or whatever.
A few years ago my answer would immediately have been Betfair along with something saying "You've simply got to use Betfair, you're betting against other customers and the prices are always close to what they should be, so you're only losing your 5% commission on average" or whatever else made sense to them
Now, with the combination of PC and also more competetive prices elsewhere, I may still recommend betfair to some of them, but I point out that if they DO end up beating the game, they'll have to pay large chunks of their money out in PC every week and that they're likely better off playing the field.
For some of the others obviously there are bookmakers or exchanges that do the job better for some sports.
Now, while I don't have a large circle of friends (people who stay indoors gambling every day and talk in numbers tend not to have), I'm reasonably sure that this pattern will be repeated amongst many of the 1500 or whatever it is PC payers, as well as the 1500 people who nearly pay it.
I doubt many people recommend betfair more highly because of the PC.
Basically everyone I know gambles and they know what I do, and they'll often ask me where they should bet, or how I do it, or whatever.
A few years ago my answer would immediately have been Betfair along with something saying "You've simply got to use Betfair, you're betting against other customers and the prices are always close to what they should be, so you're only losing your 5% commission on average" or whatever else made sense to them
Now, with the combination of PC and also more competetive prices elsewhere, I may still recommend betfair to some of them, but I point out that if they DO end up beating the game, they'll have to pay large chunks of their money out in PC every week and that they're likely better off playing the field.
For some of the others obviously there are bookmakers or exchanges that do the job better for some sports.
Now, while I don't have a large circle of friends (people who stay indoors gambling every day and talk in numbers tend not to have), I'm reasonably sure that this pattern will be repeated amongst many of the 1500 or whatever it is PC payers, as well as the 1500 people who nearly pay it.
I doubt many people recommend betfair more highly because of the PC.
I appreciate your points Lori - they do say word of mouth is the best advertising.
Personally my advice to anyone who asks me about betting is for them not to bother! Mine are largely £1-£5 punters, so the min bet would keep them away more than anything else.
Can't say before or after PC I would ever have steered them towards betfair, for worry of them getting eaten alive by the sharks.
Personally my advice to anyone who asks me about betting is for them not to bother! Mine are largely £1-£5 punters, so the min bet would keep them away more than anything else.
Can't say before or after PC I would ever have steered them towards betfair, for worry of them getting eaten alive by the sharks.
Sound advice... I spent 14 hours a day for 10 years in casinos, so most of mine are a bit larger and more hopeless cases than that ;)
Ah - tbf the only major advice I have ever given anyone who insists on gambling after not heeding the first warning is find the best price for your bets whatever you do....
indirectly that means for any who are winners that they have to bear PC in mind now of course.
Enjoyed the arcade emergency maintenance thread btw, rare to get a real LOL from this forum anymore!
indirectly that means for any who are winners that they have to bear PC in mind now of course.
Enjoyed the arcade emergency maintenance thread btw, rare to get a real LOL from this forum anymore!
I guess the Pr charge has changed me from an enthusiastic advocate of Betfair to something lukewarm.... The exciting 'better for all' message has gone...
Treble Underscore Mar 31 11: 13
Its not like the ASA has stepped in...
Do they ever " step in " if no-one has made a complaint ?
Its not like the ASA has stepped in...
Do they ever " step in " if no-one has made a complaint ?
Lori 31 Mar 11:59
Sound advice... I spent 14 hours a day for 10 years in casinos, so most of mine are a bit larger and more hopeless cases than that
was you doubling up on red :0
Sound advice... I spent 14 hours a day for 10 years in casinos, so most of mine are a bit larger and more hopeless cases than that
was you doubling up on red :0
I keep having to pay PC even though I only win on average £130 a week. Anyone any idea how I can avoid it?
One idea was to just do pure gambling and then I'll obviously end up paying much more than 23% of my total winnings to betfair.
Have tried doing that by backing and laying correct scores in football in English league matches Just £2 bets to see how it goes. So far I've made 878 bets and am up £481.88 (£582.19 before com).
Obviously that's very good, but on the other hand I was up around that amount after 480 bets. So for the past 400 bets I have made no progress. So don't know if the amount I've won suggests any upward trend or is just purely down to luck. Wish I knew more about stats.
One idea was to just do pure gambling and then I'll obviously end up paying much more than 23% of my total winnings to betfair.
Have tried doing that by backing and laying correct scores in football in English league matches Just £2 bets to see how it goes. So far I've made 878 bets and am up £481.88 (£582.19 before com).
Obviously that's very good, but on the other hand I was up around that amount after 480 bets. So for the past 400 bets I have made no progress. So don't know if the amount I've won suggests any upward trend or is just purely down to luck. Wish I knew more about stats.
One thing that continues to amaze me is the constant whingeing about this.
Yep, it's amazing that people should moan about betfair taking 20% of their winnings.
I think it should go up to 40% and slapped on anyone who has a winning week.
I think it should go up to 40% and slapped on anyone who has a winning week.
It's approximately 23% of my winnings. I'm not complaining about the PC charge as such. It's the commission rate of 5% which is a killer. Anyone who does pure gambling and comes out ahead in the long term will most likely be paying betfair between 50-100% of all their profits. This is why people need to trade to make a profit.
Some very interesting points - what I was also wondering was whether anyone had gone from using BF as a living (or income of sorts) to simply not being able to do so, because of the charges (and other changes such as commission).
Cosmic, the easiest way is to get yr bf accnt. in lifetime loss now that the pc rules have changed.
Usually arbing on best prices w/ fresh accounts in enough to do this.
Strangely some bm s that limit you for singles allow you to take best prices in outsize bets on multiples (to a 20k and sometimes 50k takeout). Just one win on one of these and you won't be worrying about pc for a long time.
You can also defray a lot of pc costs by racking up a big win/big loss here on related markets. The win is taken off yr p&l for pc calc purposes.
Usually arbing on best prices w/ fresh accounts in enough to do this.
Strangely some bm s that limit you for singles allow you to take best prices in outsize bets on multiples (to a 20k and sometimes 50k takeout). Just one win on one of these and you won't be worrying about pc for a long time.
You can also defray a lot of pc costs by racking up a big win/big loss here on related markets. The win is taken off yr p&l for pc calc purposes.
If Id stayed specifically with betfair shrewd, then yes I'd have had to change professions.
Luckily I've been around the gambling world a long time so was able to think up some ways to drum up business elsewhere.
Luckily I've been around the gambling world a long time so was able to think up some ways to drum up business elsewhere.
nobody would be complaining about this if they went the other colours way when they had the chance. most people chose to stay here and you cant complain about that now.
There ARE other choices, yes i understand that in-running etc which some people focus on would not be liquid enough to carry on as you are but if people were that serious about avoiding the PC then there would be more than just the odd little rumour about switch days etc...something would actually be done.
There ARE other choices, yes i understand that in-running etc which some people focus on would not be liquid enough to carry on as you are but if people were that serious about avoiding the PC then there would be more than just the odd little rumour about switch days etc...something would actually be done.
You don't remember the cricket liquidity falling to zero on here then rod?
I think its stu1pid guys who are on FULL 5% commission paying a further 17% Premiun Charges every week. :(
I know it has killed much of my betting on here and just looking around some golf, football, rugby and tennis markets especially the Outright ones and I see I'm not the only one who has curtailed my betting here.
In the 10 years I've been on here now I have never seen so many huge overounds on some Betfair books or so many markets been held up by £2 lays.
Yeah the in-running markets in soccer and racing are holding up alright but where else can you bet them.The rest look pretty questionable sure even the Racing Post pundits are now recommending to check prices elsewhere before you rush in here to bet for better value...Two years that was unheard of.
The only consolation is my commission paid is well down this year so Betfair are losing out there B-) and happily not from backing losers but just from tranfer of my business back to the bookmakers.....Cheers
I know it has killed much of my betting on here and just looking around some golf, football, rugby and tennis markets especially the Outright ones and I see I'm not the only one who has curtailed my betting here.
In the 10 years I've been on here now I have never seen so many huge overounds on some Betfair books or so many markets been held up by £2 lays.
Yeah the in-running markets in soccer and racing are holding up alright but where else can you bet them.The rest look pretty questionable sure even the Racing Post pundits are now recommending to check prices elsewhere before you rush in here to bet for better value...Two years that was unheard of.
The only consolation is my commission paid is well down this year so Betfair are losing out there B-) and happily not from backing losers but just from tranfer of my business back to the bookmakers.....Cheers
Cosmic Horizon
Just up your stakes a lot and then you won't have to pay it.
Just up your stakes a lot and then you won't have to pay it.
I don't want to up the £2 bets up till I know they are value bets!
Betfair is still workable, but anyone thinking of leaving to do this full-time now, are in a much more difficult position than say 4/5 years ago. Who knows what lays ahead with regard to charges.
Lori 31 Mar 16:44
You don't remember the cricket liquidity falling to zero on here then rod?
no, i never touch the cricket. how long did it last or is it still going on and all the cricket punters moved? if they came back then why didnt they stay?
You don't remember the cricket liquidity falling to zero on here then rod?
no, i never touch the cricket. how long did it last or is it still going on and all the cricket punters moved? if they came back then why didnt they stay?
From the horseracing forum......
in all seriousness i know lots of lads who refuse to come on here cos of the premium charge..we will never know how many new customers are put off..wen i tell my mates wat it means they cant beleve it lol..they say.. you pay your commission PLUS 20 PER CENT OF YOUR WINNINGS EACH WEEK!..i say yea.. they just shake their heads in amazement lol..so the day the pc goes is the day betfair takes off again...until then they just reguratating old customers.
in all seriousness i know lots of lads who refuse to come on here cos of the premium charge..we will never know how many new customers are put off..wen i tell my mates wat it means they cant beleve it lol..they say.. you pay your commission PLUS 20 PER CENT OF YOUR WINNINGS EACH WEEK!..i say yea.. they just shake their heads in amazement lol..so the day the pc goes is the day betfair takes off again...until then they just reguratating old customers.
It lasted about 2 weeks. People came back because nobody else bothered to move across for other sports.
Just pointing out it was more than an "odd little rumour" it actually happened at cost to people's time and effort.
well at least some people had the right idea. its a shame everyone didnt move across together. i tried it ages ago but the tennis in play was non existent. now prematch it isnt too bad for some matches so ill try doing some over there and gradually move it all across should the chance arise but im not getting my hopes up because like you say, most people failed to move across.
I also dont think the intention was ever to leave betfair entirely, it was just to show what could be done.
Where can you find out your premium charge? Why is it not in the my account?
rod hull 31 Mar 17:59
well at least some people had the right idea. its a shame everyone didnt move across together
__________
What would be the point in 1,000 premium charge players all moving across to purple ?
I'll tell you. No point .
well at least some people had the right idea. its a shame everyone didnt move across together
__________
What would be the point in 1,000 premium charge players all moving across to purple ?
I'll tell you. No point .
not just PC payers to move, i meant the smaller players too, and the mugs too, and the newbies with high hopes of winning enough to qualify for it in the future.
Rod - there would be no incentive for them to jump ship . Maybe if Purple sent out a few free bets to get started ,things might be different .
It's a poor site anyway ,badly designed .
It's a poor site anyway ,badly designed .
well they did offer 2% comm for a while, that was why i swapped over at first, every little helps. i personally dont mind the site layout etc, although i have heard many say the same as you.
The worst thing is that they dont want to do anything themselves with regards to advertising etc to get people to swap...they seem happy with what they have got.
The worst thing is that they dont want to do anything themselves with regards to advertising etc to get people to swap...they seem happy with what they have got.
Indeed Rod, I don't know what their game is , if they have a game plan at all .
** don't have anywhere near the depth of markets - of the 25 or so in running events a week I play,** will cover about 3 of them
ROD...Some of these markets here like the Golf and Tennis are only held together by 6 -10 big players at most. So it boils down to when or if these big players enter Premiun Charge land whether they move. Otherwise they just keep betting between themselves generating commissionas they go on.
Which is fair enough if these guys are making big profits and generating enough charges why would they leave.....Likewise the small guy.
So what happens is the middle of the road guy who pays the pc moves but now all the smart minds are competing against each other on a rival exchange, but without the small fish the (regular loser) who's left behind obivious to it al the commotionl..... Which is why he's often the regular loser.
That forces some of us to come back for the moment as the world doesn't change over night.
But I know the bets I'm placing now or any lays I take on at now at a lot less generous or attrative than they would have been 2 years ago. :0
As I simply building in the premiun charge that I now expect to pay by relying on the Betfair populary of old to hide the value that I'm taking or offering.
So yeah in some ways its the guys who I'm now betting against me are paying the Premiun Charges those who are matching me at higher odds than I normally would have looked at or lays I would have matched at lowers odd than before.
Funny thing is it probaly the same guys here who are saying I couldn't care less about the Premiun Charges since I never pay it.......
But in fact in a lots of cases now it is the losers who are now paying it, for the winners.
They just don't realise it. :^0
Which is fair enough if these guys are making big profits and generating enough charges why would they leave.....Likewise the small guy.
So what happens is the middle of the road guy who pays the pc moves but now all the smart minds are competing against each other on a rival exchange, but without the small fish the (regular loser) who's left behind obivious to it al the commotionl..... Which is why he's often the regular loser.
That forces some of us to come back for the moment as the world doesn't change over night.
But I know the bets I'm placing now or any lays I take on at now at a lot less generous or attrative than they would have been 2 years ago. :0
As I simply building in the premiun charge that I now expect to pay by relying on the Betfair populary of old to hide the value that I'm taking or offering.
So yeah in some ways its the guys who I'm now betting against me are paying the Premiun Charges those who are matching me at higher odds than I normally would have looked at or lays I would have matched at lowers odd than before.
Funny thing is it probaly the same guys here who are saying I couldn't care less about the Premiun Charges since I never pay it.......
But in fact in a lots of cases now it is the losers who are now paying it, for the winners.
They just don't realise it. :^0
It's a poor site anyway ,badly designed .
It's basically identical to betfair, but their lack of options makes navigation easier (it would be just as difficult if it were the same size as betfair however, so cant count as a plus point).
It's basically identical to betfair, but their lack of options makes navigation easier (it would be just as difficult if it were the same size as betfair however, so cant count as a plus point).
Blessington 31 Mar 18:35
ROD...Some of these markets here like the Golf and Tennis are only held together by 6 -10 big players at most.
I can assure you mate there are more than 6-10 big players on the tennis....far far more. Golf, maybe, i never touch it but tennis, you are way with that prediction.
ROD...Some of these markets here like the Golf and Tennis are only held together by 6 -10 big players at most.
I can assure you mate there are more than 6-10 big players on the tennis....far far more. Golf, maybe, i never touch it but tennis, you are way with that prediction.
blessington, hit nail on head, golf particulary you are worse off in regards value back bets due to the market makers having to factor it their prices due to pc, thats my main gripe with it. lori, i think it was you on the golf forum, you were talking about" hybrid exchanges " i thought a budding entrepreneur could do a lot worse.
Lori , the site looks like its beendesigned by a 7 year old ,for a 7 year old .
If youre going to create a site to rival a successful giant such as BF ,atleast model it on BF somewhat .
There is no difference in appearance for me Coach, other than one has green and blue instead of purple and blue in the boxes.
Then menus, forum, and price boxes all have the same layout
Then menus, forum, and price boxes all have the same layout
The correct score market layout doesnt follow any logical sequence ...obviously designed by someone with a lower IQ than a Daily Mail reader.
The trading markets look like something pulled off CeeBeebies ffs.
The navigation bar index is all over the shop . It's a feckin shambles .
The trading markets look like something pulled off CeeBeebies ffs.
The navigation bar index is all over the shop . It's a feckin shambles .
I actually prefer their correct score layout!
The markets should be in alphabetical order, but at least you can find them, unlike here where you can often not even find a televised soccer game or something. (Again, it would be just as bad there if they were as big as here.)
Not sure what you mean by the trading markets. Mine look identical on both sites with the slight colour differences excepted.
The markets should be in alphabetical order, but at least you can find them, unlike here where you can often not even find a televised soccer game or something. (Again, it would be just as bad there if they were as big as here.)
Not sure what you mean by the trading markets. Mine look identical on both sites with the slight colour differences excepted.
In fact, it's worse than a mess, it's pointless (but again, who uses it?)
I pay 200 a week commission to BF most weeks ,and i think that's just about preferable to playing on there,to be honest with you .
I don't find any operational differences at all, other than the advantage there of not having to wait five seconds if you're pricing up a market, and the ability to suspend bets.
That's offset of course by the fact that nobody plays there :|
That's offset of course by the fact that nobody plays there :|
Betfair would have a strong advantage if they ever made "my markets" so it worked imo.
BF has its negative points Lori , i agree ...but i'm looking at their chart now .
The 0-0 score line is HALFWAYdown the page,so presumably you have to circumnavigate around the dead scoreline as soon as a goal is scored ?
The 0-0 score line is HALFWAYdown the page,so presumably you have to circumnavigate around the dead scoreline as soon as a goal is scored ?
As opposed to betfair where it's stuck at the top of the page and you have to scroll down every time it refreshes?
Both are awful in that regard.
Both are awful in that regard.
I'd just rather have the home team on top as they're usually the faves and it's all in clear view if they lead.
Anything else happens and both sites are equally bad I think.
Anything else happens and both sites are equally bad I think.
Actually im wrong, if the away side takes a lead, betfair is superior
ROD...I take your word for it about the Tennis as I don't bet inplay myself now on it. But it was one of your own guys who made that quote....I think the guy was called TheManMargus he used to be one of the big boys on it but surrendered it when the pc first came in 2 years ago.
When I say big player in the golf we have one guy who puts in £200,000 a tournament. That provides a lot of liquidty. Indeed when the guy was later putting up his money this week there was a thread complaining about the lack of liquidly in the market.
Thats how fragile( probably the 3rd or 4th biggest market on Betfair) now is. A guy sleeps in and a big market like the golf slows down to a near stop. :0
All the pc implications have not been all settled or sorted yet imo......Cheers
When I say big player in the golf we have one guy who puts in £200,000 a tournament. That provides a lot of liquidty. Indeed when the guy was later putting up his money this week there was a thread complaining about the lack of liquidly in the market.
Thats how fragile( probably the 3rd or 4th biggest market on Betfair) now is. A guy sleeps in and a big market like the golf slows down to a near stop. :0
All the pc implications have not been all settled or sorted yet imo......Cheers
Always find it fascinating how we all do the same crap all day and all have such different opinions on the most basic of things (even layout of sites).
For example, I'll never stop asking betfair to do away with the whole back/lay thing for two runner markets when the american site's system is just obviously better.
They say having one option instead of two is confusing to new customers.... how can having fewer things to worry about be confusing (we know the answer to that one, it involves the cross matching bot )
For example, I'll never stop asking betfair to do away with the whole back/lay thing for two runner markets when the american site's system is just obviously better.
They say having one option instead of two is confusing to new customers.... how can having fewer things to worry about be confusing (we know the answer to that one, it involves the cross matching bot )
Whatever happend to M ansion btw ? They still have a site.
Have they officially died off in the UK ?
Have they officially died off in the UK ?
They turned off the exchange for reasons I never looked into (presumably they make more from just laying bets themselves)
Ah, often wondered about that .Cheers Lori. Maybe they weren't making enough in commission in the first place?
Lori 31 Mar 19:20
Always find it fascinating how we all do the same crap all day and all have such different opinions on the most basic of things (even layout of sites)
LORI..i the day we all think the same on here we can all give up. As there be nobody to match our bets as we all would have the same opinion. :^0
Always find it fascinating how we all do the same crap all day and all have such different opinions on the most basic of things (even layout of sites)
LORI..i the day we all think the same on here we can all give up. As there be nobody to match our bets as we all would have the same opinion. :^0
Blessington/Lori
So are you both winners here or losers and have you paid the premium charge or not?
So are you both winners here or losers and have you paid the premium charge or not?
JIMMY. Yeah I'm paying it,
and have a winning account,
and I'm on flippant full 5% commission
plus premiun charges. :0
and have a winning account,
and I'm on flippant full 5% commission
plus premiun charges. :0
It does seem a tad unfair to be penalising you guys twice. My advice to you is that if you are both winners which it appears you are is to up your stakes hugely. That way you will still win...lots more... and won't have to pay the PC.
can you explain in a sentence or two how much comm you would need to generate etc to avoid paying pc, just an example for a stupid person?
Dunno Rod. My current commission rate is around about 2.4% .I haven't paid the PC yet and would be**ed off if I had to.
so you saying basically, you think its poss to lose, then start winning, get comm rate down, get pc'd, keep winning more then upping stakes and moving through paying pc to just comm again due to comm generated?
i didnt know that.
i didnt know that.
I'm not sure but all I do know is that if you are on a low commission rate then I guess you will never pay PC. You have got to have big bank though to make it pay as you are bound to have some bad days.
Lori 31 Mar 19:10
Betfair would have a strong advantage if they ever made "my markets" so it worked imo.
It really does suprise me when certain elements of the site don't work properly.
However it surprises me even more when the entire site goes down during the most crucial time imaginable :D
Betfair would have a strong advantage if they ever made "my markets" so it worked imo.
It really does suprise me when certain elements of the site don't work properly.
However it surprises me even more when the entire site goes down during the most crucial time imaginable :D
Jimmy,aggregated commision has to go above 22.5%
I don't have a major problem with the PC . I'd rather have a half decent site like this than 8 or 9 mediocre sites tbf.
I don't have a major problem with the PC . I'd rather have a half decent site like this than 8 or 9 mediocre sites tbf.
ive been backing and laying random stuff, and doing the opposite on the other place, to try and increase turnover/reduce the pc.
no matter what i do, the bet on here wins and my pc for this week has gone up by £80. ive never witnessed a winning streak like it.
no matter what i do, the bet on here wins and my pc for this week has gone up by £80. ive never witnessed a winning streak like it.
Count yourself lucky John. Just think of all those poor sods who don't win on BF.
Nobody should be paying PC.. period.. if they are on less that 3% commission - not directly anyway. It hits small winners much more than big winners because the big winners will have lower strike rates for 2 reasons. ...1. they play in more competitive markets with lower margins and higher turnover and... 2. when you increase stakes obviously you get a worse price much of the time on the incremental stake so will get nearer to the PC threshold.
Most PC payers still dont get it that it's more a tax on turnover than winnings (and would be exactly that if you got refunds). It's easy to say just increase your stakes but you would be doing that already to a degree if it was as easy as increased stake equals increased profits.
Most PC payers still dont get it that it's more a tax on turnover than winnings (and would be exactly that if you got refunds). It's easy to say just increase your stakes but you would be doing that already to a degree if it was as easy as increased stake equals increased profits.
For instance I'm currently on 3.2% commission which is about as low as I've ever been and I'd say about 75-80% of the time I take everything I can on the markets I play in at what I think is a playable price for me. This only leaves 20-25% of the time where it would be possible for me to increase my stakes further by default. Do I really want to increase my stakes on a small non choice basis? The reality of increasing stakes is not as simple as it seems.
2% of winners pay a lower percentage of their winnings in commission than the other 98% of winners do, but that 2% do 98% of the whinging about commission. They also generally don't supply liquidity and many of them fk up the API with their endless stream of requests for information to leech off while the rest spend their time **ing people off the site. When they're not on here they're losing the rest of us new customers by telling everyone how sh1t betfair are and spreading the lie that they take 20% off winning bets. And yet, these are seemingly the preferred clients of the clowns who run betfair.
Can't wait till the middle of May myself for this shower of **** that run country and want to impose a new death tax on my parents, who have worked all their life been prudent and provided for themselves in their retirement to look after those that have spent all their cash on booze, fags and fancy holidays, lose their power. No surprise really because that's the mentality of spend today **** tomorrow that has put this country under a mountain of debt.
Hope the new government has the guts to invoke compulsory pensions.
Hope the new government has the guts to invoke compulsory pensions.
I thought I'd do a spot of fishing for some Glaswegian Hooped Redneck jimmy. There's been a spate of sightings of this rare breed in Stripeyblazerland recently :)
Paying out about 25% of my gross profit to BF in charges in March.
Darling said they're not going to impose any death taxes if they get re-elected.
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