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We will agree to disagree. Brackets were invented to get rid of the confusion so why set questions that can be read in two different ways resulting in two different answers?
Was my time at school wasted? Maybe I learnt what I wanted to learn and blocked off all the rubbish taht they try and fill your heads with. The maths I learnt was good enough for use on Betfair - that's the important bit! |
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hahahha
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Maybe Betfair just tried to change some code based on this thread and blew the site up?
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I must confess to always using way too many brackets, but that's my inherent trust of other people at work
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its obvious when you start writing algebraic equations isn't it
z+xy always means z + (x * y), never (z + x) * y |
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the question is obviously specifically designed to test the student's understanding of order of operations.
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Hi Al, I think i was wrong to say there's two ways to read it. Why would anyone ever say 4+2 instead of 6? Thats how you have to read it to get the answer to be 30
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the real problem I have with it is that it's teachers who didn't know this.
Surely at some point at teacher teaching school, they get taught to look out for potentially difficult or trappy looking questions that their classes might be able to make a mess of. It can't all be about putting cones on your head and pretending to be the solar system surely? |
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Is that what they do at teaching school?? That figures
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those who can and all that lori.
primary school teacher with 1-4 years experience gets about the same as an assistant manager at mcdonalds. although you don't get a minimum of 13 weeks holiday a year. |
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but surely there is a minimum level of qualification? don't you need to have passed some kind of mathematical qualification to teach maths?
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grade c gcse if i remember correctly from the channel 4 program on on monday night.
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Is that the grade they get with a 20% mark?
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GCSEs are terrifying, I remember the first year they came in someone showed me their biology paper and one of the questions had 100 creatures drawn on the page and the question was "count how many of these bugs have wings"
Since then, the word is they've got easier :0 |
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lower than i'd have thought.
to be honest though - the question was obviously designed to cause someone to slip up. It's a bit pedantic. They are probably taught to use brackets, and encourage kids to use them. |
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as i said on the other page i don't agree monkfish.
that question has been deliberately set to test the candidate's knowledge of order of operations. |
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Anyone who hasn't been taught BODMAS, hasn't been taught Maths, it's that simple. The Victorians knew of the principle and it's one of the things that separates Mathematics from simple Arithmetic. Maths includes Algebra and the equation given is algebraic.
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and with a little bit of googling order of operations is taught in year 6 (10-11 apparently). most worksheets contain loads of question like the one asked deliberately testing BIDMAS/BODMAS/PEDMAS
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agreed gallivanter, like much of what is taught (especially at A level which i did a while ago) it can be argued that it's not that useful in a day to day situation but the answer IS 14. mathematics follows an order of operations, BODMAS, which was still being taught (at least in the school i went to) in the 90s
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Just for interest here are the other questions they asked:
1. 2 x 5 - 4 = (97% correct) 2 1/2 divided by 1/4 = (47% correct) 3. 1.4 divived by 0.1 = (34% correct) Answers below: 1. 6 2. 2 3. 14 |
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i am aware of that DStyle but the hope was to show up teacher's inability to teach maths.
They asked 188 primary teachers in the whole of England and use that to produce tv programmes and newspaper headlines about the state of the education system. I'm sure the mathematicians amongst us can comment on the legitimacy of that sample. |
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DStyle 17 Feb 11:06
and with a little bit of googling order of operations is taught in year 6 (10-11 apparently) Do many teachers concentrate on lower age groups and others on the older ones? If they asked 100 primary one teachers this and none of them knew the answer then it wouldn't matter at all would it? I'm not saying it shouldn't be a concern that teachers don't know maths but i'm not sure how big a deal this is |
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just thinking the same myself actually. i imagine that each teacher is assigned a year group and sticks to it so they'll probably be a lot of them that don't teach this topic.
as for the state of the education, having watched that channel 4 program, the problem really didn't appear to be with the teachers' knowledge of the entire syllabus; rather it appears that children get left behind because the teachers are unable to help all children conceptualise abstract mathmatical ideas. |
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along with the idea that you can either "do" maths or you can't.
the japanese have a very very different attitude. |
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It's a big deal because we expect primary school teachers to be at least slightly above average in intelligence and to have at least an average education. A grade C GCSE isn't too much to ask. What if a child asks a question? I still remember the teacher who assured us that the world wasn't anything near a million years old. She wasn't being religious, she really didn't know.
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it's one thing complaining that they can't teach the syllabus but do you think they should be there to answer random questions thrown at them from the pupils on any subject?
When i used the phrase "big deal" it was in relation to who teaches what. I don't expect a Physics teacher to be able to teach me French - and i suspect there are some teachers in this study who never have to teach this year 6 level maths. There are probably kids coming out of school who can't even do the 2 x 5 bit of the question even if they knew the order in which to do it. |
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i think that 2. and 3. are even scarier, especially 1.4 divided by 0.1 which is basically trivial with no traps, tricks or anything
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the fact that more of them get question 2 than question 3 is something i find quite strange.
Does anyone know if this was a written test? Was it done over the phone? |
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I agree with that Monkfish, I'd have thought that dividing fractions in your head was harder than decimals.... I'm sure racing for change would agree :D
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especially if they were asked in that order. if you got that one right you would have surely have been aware of being asked to divide by less than 1
In fact, were people possibly asked one question each? I should maybe look into this myself instead of asking haha |
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I bet if you asked them what 10% off their sofa was, they'd all get it right.
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do you think they should be there to answer random questions thrown at them from the pupils on any subject?
Yes, if the subject at the level of the question is taught in primary school. These are primary school teachers. They should be competent enough to answer any questions that primary school children are expected to answer. |
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Isn't that like saying that a football coach should be as good a striker as Wayne Rooney? You don't have to be Wayne Rooney to be a good coach.
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ok Gallivanter - but if the worst thing you can remember in your education was that your teacher didn't know the age of the planet then i wouldn't get too worried.
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We're not talking about games where innate skill is often required, we're talking about simple things that ALL 11-year-olds are expected to master. If the teachers aren't educated enough or able enough to masterr them then they are in the wrong job.
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Someone can teach a physical skill without being able to do it themselves. But how does a teacher teach knowledge without having the knowledge themselves?
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For example, how can the the 53% that couldn't divide 1/2 by 1/4 teach children to do it if they don't know how to do it themselves?
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actually are they all "expected to master" them?
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Wayne Rooney: Hey boss, where do I kick the ball to score a goal?
Coach: Buggered if I know mate, do 20 more pushups. |
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never mind BODMAS do you remember silly old harry chasing a horse through our attic. eh those were the days
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