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The Magician (6)
30 Mar 09 19:58
Joined:
Date Joined: 10 Dec 07
| Topic/replies: 105 | Blogger: The Magician (6)'s blog
A sad state of affairs..... IMO....

I would be totally embarrassed if I wrote either of these documents ( and took 7 months to write them)

Not surprisingly no one was willing to put their names to these verbose, opaque,
Pause Switch to Standard View As feared the GC prove impotent or...
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Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 9:14 AM BST
And I think this idea about no clock delay is**ers.

Having no clock delay only helps punters without fast pics who have yet to submit bets. They totally screw punters without fast pics who leave offers up. Fast pics players make most of their money hoovering what bets are left up not by taking money from people who's bets are waiting to hit the exchange in the next 5 secs. Hoovering after the result is known by its very nature means taking what bets are up there before Betfair can suspend the market. Further, as a general rule punters don't place bets ir if during the 5 second delay something significant is likely to happen, and for any that do regularly there is absolutely no hope.

The important thing for Betfair to do is make people aware of possible transmission delays which they do and that they have all the fastest feeds themselves so they can suspend the market immediately.

People will be wanting warnings up next that some customers have very sophisticated computer technology to place their bets especially in financial markets, or that some people are likely to have better knowledge or information on the sport than you, or warnings that you can't win long term on exchange games etc etc etc. Use a little bit of common sense.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 9:18 AM BST
THE STATMAN I must have missed all the figures that they couldn't understand.

The article was 99.9% prose.

The GC might not have the mathematical nous of Magician but they can use common sense.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 9:33 AM BST
slayerofthe'kins 02 Apr 09:59

Also, if you are 1st to lay at 1.01 you actually make a profit. In fact, many horses to far too short in-running, and the returns which you imagine are terrible, actually aren't so bad.

..................................

slayer I can never be first in the queue to lay at 1.01. That is just as unfair and I demand a GC enquiry, or at least odds of 1.005 and 1.015, better still 1.012 1.014 etc etc.
Report the bank man April 2, 2009 9:36 AM BST
clydebank,

Fast pics players make most of their money hoovering what bets are left up not by taking money from people who's bets are waiting to hit the exchange in the next 5 secs


i'd agree with this. having played the in running markets since their inception i would say that a few years ago they would still hoover money about to hit the market but that is greatly reduced these days. when a horse falls there is not much money matched between the current trading price and 1000 which backs this up. fundamentally i'd agree with the magician in that if you submitted a bet at this crucial period and it was matched after the horse fell then you in theory should be entitled to your money back. the problem would be people would simply take advantage of the situation and we'd be no better off. i keep harping on about getting picture speeds increased but i honestly see it as the best way forward to increasing liquidity, fairness etc on the markets.
Report THE STATMAN April 2, 2009 9:43 AM BST
clydbank, have a look at response 2.44 how did they conclude that the % of trading shop winners represented no significant advantage over sit at home slow pics players of whom 98% lose.lol maybe its just me and im missing something.
Report Special Cargo April 2, 2009 9:51 AM BST
statman - the 98% lose figure if you choose to believe is correct includes all pre in-running bets.

The % of winners will rise when people can see an event unfold.

As a result the % of winners will also rise.
Report Special Cargo April 2, 2009 9:52 AM BST
* should have said % of overall winners.
Report pumpkinslayerII April 2, 2009 10:00 AM BST
You are right clyde, there is a bot that lays 1.01 as soon as a market opens and keeps the bets to go IR.

But this is an important point isn't it? One would expect the first money to be matched at 1.01 to be by hooverers. And yet there is someone laying £10K per horse per race and making a profit. So the people who get to the "free" money first make a loss.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 10:04 AM BST
I agree the bank man

The Statman Betfair said something along the lines of "less than 0.5% of active customers pay premium charges and less than 2% of winners pay PC". The conclusion is around 25% of customers win not 2%.

Betfair may well be playing with figures but the figure you quote is the only time I can remember the GC quoting figures in the whole article. No real conclusion can be drawn from that one figure, although on the face of it it doesnt seem too bad and the conclusion in context to me. But there is reference to an independent report and I would assuime they've read it. In any case I don't see anything wrong in people utilising faster feeds.

Other than make a new law making it illegal to bet live at events via internet I dont see anything practical or sensible the GC can do or recommend to level the playing field ir.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 10:07 AM BST
and even then someone can be relaying the information by mouthpiece to someone at home
Report THE STATMAN April 2, 2009 10:09 AM BST
special cargo, yes the 98% is debatablle, but i think tou have settled it with your comment about the % of winners increase as an event unfolds. would it help if you could see this event unfold before anyone else?
Report THE STATMAN April 2, 2009 10:15 AM BST
clydbank im obviously not up to speed the 98% losers is a figure i saw ages ago. if in fact 25% of users are winners that may change things.
Report Special Cargo April 2, 2009 10:23 AM BST
statman,

I agree as I have already said on one of these similar threads somewhere.

I cant see how people on track or at venue can possibly lose overall as it is such a huge advantage against televised pictures which depending on the event are so far behind.

As others & myself have said all betting from track/venue would have to be stopped b4 it could be made fair. Then and only then can you then concentrate on making the broadcasting technology fair.

Then you would have to make bet submission fair and cancel all technology where bots can hit the system with 000's of bets for e.g. in and around the 'suspended' system which is an area where people are getting **ked up the r's.

People will say well you can go to the track or get a bot built so where do we draw the line ?
Report Feck N. Eejit April 2, 2009 11:14 AM BST
If 46% of trading shop customers are paying several hundred a week for fast pics and losing money into the bargain then the biggest mugs are to be found in trading shops.Is that what the GC believe? i'd say the winning percentage for trading shop REGULARS would be much nearer 100%.

Clydebank, if the bet placement delay is shorter than the feed delay (in horse racing it's much shorter) then the delay only offers protection to those with fast pics. It's a hinderence to stay at home punters.

Pumpkin, are you not assuming that these bets are being picked off by fast pic players. I'd have thought that the any profit the first up with 1.01's was making would be mainly due to slow pic players thinking it was all over.
Report pumpkinslayerII April 2, 2009 12:31 PM BST
But feck, if there is a point when the slow pic guys think it's over, there was a prior point when the fast pic guys thought it was over.
Report pumpkinslayerII April 2, 2009 12:34 PM BST
if the bet placement delay is shorter than the feed delay (in horse racing it's much shorter) then the delay only offers protection to those with fast pics. It's a hinderence to stay at home punters.

I disagree. If it were increased to longer than the feed delay I think you would find IR betting would be killed off more or less instantly. Who wants to wait 5 seconds to get their bet on?
Report Feck N. Eejit April 2, 2009 12:49 PM BST
I wasn't advocating they make it longer pumpkin. I was saying it should be zero as the 1 sec delay only protects the fast pic players from each other. It does nothing for the atr/ruk players.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 2, 2009 1:00 PM BST
But feck, if there is a point when the slow pic guys think it's over, there was a prior point when the fast pic guys thought it was over.

True but the fast pic boys would just sell it on to the slow pic players. Ultimately it's the slow pic players that will be paying the price. Same with your 1.7+. I'm assuming there are slow pic players that try for 1.01's, ridiculous though that may seem. Never overestimate the intelligence of human beings.
Report pumpkinslayerII April 2, 2009 1:02 PM BST
ok, in which case I agree with you feck. No often that happens ;-)
Report freetea April 2, 2009 2:05 PM BST
Is this the thread where magician states that because the GC conclusion didn't agree with his virtual findings, then the GC must be incompetent.
Report The Mighty Mogul April 2, 2009 2:38 PM BST
I hate to say i told you so Magician but ...
Report Rueben April 2, 2009 2:44 PM BST
freetea 02 Apr 15:05


Is this the thread where magician states that because the GC conclusion didn't agree with his virtual findings, then the GC must be incompetent

Well said - the guy is a class 1 numpty (imo of course) :)
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 2, 2009 3:11 PM BST
Feck is correct, the 1 second delay in horseracing only provides added protection for the track players and fast pic players. There should be zero delay for placing bets on horseracing to make the markets fairer.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 4:05 PM BST
he is not correct
Report Peter Parker's Lazy Twin April 2, 2009 4:34 PM BST
I agree, no time delay is better for the majority.
Report baconandeggs April 2, 2009 4:38 PM BST
clydebank, increasing the delay means that anyone playing near current market prices will only get their bets matched if they are wrong, those with delayed pics will be by far the worse off overall imo

the only strategy with a big delay would be to put in prices way off the current price and cancel when needed, the vast majority wouldn't do this tho and would just try and back and lay prices on the screen, the so called mugs will just be mugged even more
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 2, 2009 4:41 PM BST
Please elaborate Clydebank. The 1 second delay only protects fast pic players and track players from each other. It does not provide protection for people watching ATR and putting up offers.
Report THE STATMAN April 2, 2009 7:10 PM BST
Good point jack. i await the arguments against that!
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 7:39 PM BST
Having no clock delay only helps punters without fast pics who have yet to submit bets. They totally screw punters without fast pics who leave offers up. Fast pics players make most of their money hoovering what bets are left up not by taking money from people who's bets are waiting to hit the exchange in the next 5 secs. Hoovering after the result is known by its very nature means taking what bets are up there before Betfair can suspend the market. Further, as a general rule punters don't place bets ir if during the 5 second delay something significant is likely to happen, and for any that do regularly there is absolutely no hope.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 8:05 PM BST
Personally I wouldn't bet when I'm at a speed disadvantage and don't do much ir apart from football and special bets. In football I'm protected becaus ethe markets are managed and in special bets the time delay is virtually inconsequential. The time delay in football is absolutely essential for me to bet on a level playing field else i'd be hoovered up if there was a goal

If you are going to bt people with fast pictures you need to have bets in the system already in a sort of what if scenario and hope that people with fast pictures over react. I can see the point about seing an offer and by the time the 5/3/1 seconds have gone a fast picture person has taken it but that's only part of the picture and not as important and if the price is out of line and there is no delay you'd never see it since it would already be taken.

Betfair are driven by the market. Customers shouldnt bet when the decks are stacked against them
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 2, 2009 8:37 PM BST
Feck and I refer specifically to horseracing markets where the 1 second delay offers no protection to ATR players with offers in the system as these pictures are 4 seconds behind the live action on Sky and over 8 seconds behind on Virgin cable.

The delay is in fact a further hinderance to slow pic players trying to take an existing offer as it allows people with faster pics and unmatched bets already in the system a 1 second advantage to cancel their offers, as if having faster pics was not enough of an advantage already.
Report CLYDEBANK29 April 2, 2009 8:48 PM BST
1 second is as good as useless, i'd agree with that, so it may as well be zero. I don't think it would make things better though. You'd still be stuffed.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 2, 2009 8:49 PM BST
On sports where the bet placement delay is greater than the feed delay the fast pic offer taker is still stuck behind the clock when the slow pic person sees what prompted the fast pic player to act and that gives the offer maker the opportunity to cancel.

In horse racing, if a slow pic player puts up an ir offer then, by the time he sees something that makes him want to cancel, a fast pic player has seen it several seconds ago and the offer's already matched. The one second bet placement delay gives the offer maker no protection whatsoever unless he's got fast pics (in that case it gives him a chance to cancel before other fast pic merchants snatch his bet).
Report heynoodles April 2, 2009 8:50 PM BST
1 second is not a long time to place a bet and then react that in fact youve made a mistake and want to cancel. Personally doubt ive ever done it.

And when u refer to a 4 sec delay its not 4 secs behind the people u are calling 'fast pics players' because they are on delayed pictures too.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 2, 2009 8:51 PM BST
Posted that before I seen Jack's latest post.
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 2, 2009 8:54 PM BST
I agree the 1 second delay is not a massive issue, the real problem and the reason why the in-running markets are not as fair as they could be is that RUK and particularly ATR pictures are not as quick as they could be.

The markets will not be fair until everyone has easy access to the fastest possible pictures.
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 2, 2009 8:56 PM BST
Noodles I said 4 seconds behind the live action.
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:36 PM BST
THE STATMAN 02 Apr 09:59


I dont think they understood the maths of what they were talking about, no other reason for their figures and conclusions on fairness. or else they were sucking up to the big boys. the report was a joke and insult to anyone with half a brain. i have no vested interest in IR.


I could not agree more...

they say you can use stats to make any arguement.

two respondant ( at least ) provided some VERY SELETIVE 'stats'

a) percentage of fast picture cafe people that won was 55% there for 45% lost and (therefor it was fair)
b) the the percentage that won IR was only slightly higher than pre-off (therefor it was fair)

the GC swalloed both of these fed consluion without even questioning the length of the first 'stat' (hence it credibiity)

and swollod both points of evidence of fainress when they actually point to exactly the OPPOSITE

if thier paper was placed in a acadmic journal - it WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN accepted
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:38 PM BST
slayerofthe'kins 02 Apr 09:59


Where is my protection? Where is the fairness of my matched bet? It has not been consumed by a tracksider until its true price is 1.9, 1.7, 1.6. 1.3 who knows and it varies...

I assume you know the average return if every horse in the field is layed at 2.0 IR and left? I did test this years back, and things might have changed, but the loss is not big, and the average odds are nowhere near 1.7, let alone anything lower. You are imagining a problem where there isn't one.

Also, if you are 1st to lay at 1.01 you actually make a profit. In fact, many horses to far too short in-running, and the returns which you imagine are terrible, actually aren't so bad.


Slayer, with all due respect

1) what where the odds?
2) reapet it for 5000 races, and place 5000 quid up at 2.0 (not 2 quid) and tell me what the retrun is
3) exactly if you are first.... and the last time someone published, the firt 1400 at 1.01 was profit making all matched at 1.01 after that was loss making....and SIGNIFICANTLY more than 1400 is matched on 99.9% of winners at 1.01
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:40 PM BST
Vital Spark 02 Apr 06:29


Recently i have reported(twice) to Betfair,bets being placed when the result was known.For instance this morning Federer defeated Rodick.I checked the prices up to the winning point.No doubt some(one) are beating Betfair to the punch.I await Betfairs response,though i know nought will come of this.


Vital despite the fact the gambling SPEFCIFICALLY Act allows for a bet struck after the event where one side of the bet already knows the result to be a bet, this clause does no superceed the fact that the bet must be fair.

so send the bets to the GC and they will investigate and potentially cancel them
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:43 PM BST
CLYDEBANK29 02 Apr 09:48


The GC was a good article, well written which adopted common sense and practicality in its conclusions. Personally I thought the conclusions were obvious.


CLYDEBANK29 02 Apr 10:18


The article was 99.9% prose.

I find it hard to have believeable conclsuions with .01% data
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:50 PM BST
the bank man

You are I are fundamentally on the same page regarding the techincal lack of fairness, we disagree slightly about the ability to improve the situation... and the balance between practiclity and fairness but respect all the same

But I do wish you luck in yuor quest to get all pictures faster, and If I can hekpo in this regard would happy to do so

are there still rumours that the TV broadcaster technicians are delaying the broadcast so they them selves can win IR with 'real time feeds'
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 9:55 PM BST
pumpkinslayerII 02 Apr 11:00


You are right clyde, there is a bot that lays 1.01 as soon as a market opens and keeps the bets to go IR.

But this is an important point isn't it? One would expect the first money to be matched at 1.01 to be by hooverers. And yet there is someone laying £10K per horse per race and making a profit. So the people who get to the "free" money first make a loss.


I assume you make two assumtpitons here

1) this person is making a profit - perhaps so.... or perhaps he is laying these bets at a loss to trigger other bets

2) you assume he leaves all of them up... perhaps he places them for all races and pulls them as soon as any horse goes 1.02 in his mind.... he might pull 40% ofnthese as clear winner emerge.. and his profit margin is a) about being first and b) pulling them ( wihtout delays) when they become value

or a mixtuire of the two

as I said the last time I saw a figure ~1400 was the cutoff, and that was over several mionths of data
Report The Magician (6) April 2, 2009 10:02 PM BST
I would add there is more data and analysis of the problem on this thread than there was in the entire GC review

great from you forum guys - but that is a shocking enditment on the GC


what also Irks me is the GC refuse to publish the data they recieved to draw these amasing robust conclusions...

how can you have consulation and refuse to show what lead you to your conclsuons... not very transparent , on of the guiding principles of the GC
Report Vital Spark April 2, 2009 10:18 PM BST
Roger Federer v Andy Rodick 2nd April 2009
Thursday, 2 April, 2009 7:47 AM
From:
"* *********" *********@btinternet.com
Add sender to Contacts
To:
info@betfair.com
Earlier this morning the above match took place,Miama Florida.(Soon after the event i did make a telephone call to Betfair,alas the person i spoke to was not able to understand).I noted that on match point to Federer his odds were 1.2(approx)However the last price matched on Federer was 1.01.To me this is someone betting after the result is known.Could you look into this issue please.Regards.******* *********. ----------------

Dear *******,Thank you for your e-mail.
The rules for this market state;
This market will not be actively managed therefore it is the responsibility of all users to manage their positions.
The rules for any market can be read by navigating to the market in question and clicking 'rules' on the right hand side.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries.

Kind regards

Rhiannon Burns

Betfair Helpdesk

Helpdesk Tel: 0844 871 0000
Eire Tel: 1 - 800 944 000
Australia Tel: 1- 800 644 738
Free Fax (Australia) 1- 800 507 774
International: +44 20 8834 8060
Report barry spannerface April 2, 2009 10:49 PM BST
lol even betfair have to eat......intergrity and fairness is paramount and is the lifeblood of the betfair operation c'est la vie lololol

so magician.....what is your stance on this ?

be good to hear your views on hoovering at the ned of matches
Report slayerofthe'kins April 3, 2009 11:52 AM BST
Magician

1) this person is making a profit - perhaps so.... or perhaps he is laying these bets at a loss to trigger other bets

I have been informed the lays make a profit.

2) you assume he leaves all of them up... perhaps he places them for all races and pulls them as soon as any horse goes 1.02 in his mind.... he might pull 40% ofnthese as clear winner emerge.. and his profit margin is a) about being first and b) pulling them ( wihtout delays) when they become value

Not sure about this, but from what I know they are very likely to be left up.

or a mixtuire of the two

as I said the last time I saw a figure ~1400 was the cutoff, and that was over several mionths of data

I had that sort of figure in mind also, which does contradict what I have stated above. I can offer no explanation as to the contradiction.
Report getting better April 3, 2009 1:28 PM BST
Whenever some participants in a market have information feeds faster than others there is a potential unfairness and the managers of that market have to try to decide how to manage that market as best they can.
On 16th June 1815 Nathan Rothschild famously made his fortune on through advance news of the outcome of the previous days battle. Should the London Stock Exchange have been suspended that morning until the news came through?
Or should they have posted warning notices that there had been a big battle the previous day and that some people might get the news sooner than others?
Or should they have sent a special representative to the battle with a homing pigeon in order that they could suspend the market as soon as possible after the result was known?
Report pumpkinslayerII April 3, 2009 1:35 PM BST
Life is full of risks and generally notices suffice. If you ignore the "Danger, live rails" signs and jump on the track, well that is your responsibility.
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 2:03 PM BST
Anyone who plays regularly in-running is aware of the risks and should take full responsibilty for their actions if they choose to play with delayed pictures.

The point is that the markets could be made fair for all if RUK and ATR pictures were not delayed. We know this is possible as they have both transmitted pictures at the same speed as Turf Tv and SIS in the past for a short period.

I understand RUK have been investigating the possibility of using a quicker route on a permanent basis but there seem to be extra cost implications involved.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 3, 2009 3:35 PM BST
Rails described as "live" by some Rails authorities may actually be neutral (imo)
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 5:37 PM BST
Jack what about the poeople that dont play regularly....

dont they deserve to be protected by the law that was written to protect them?

and they are the ones that

a) need the most protection
b) are probably new and need to be maintained with good experiences not painful loss making ones
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 6:36 PM BST
I agree, Betfair should be doing more to get ATR and RUK to speed their pictures up or they should try and negotiate a deal with the racecourses and Racetech etc to stream the live feed direct from the track via Flash.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 6:44 PM BST
Jack we need to support bankman getting the pictures made live

if the current speculation that the techies at these firms are deliberately delaying them so they can clean up themselves of real time... that is shocking and needs to be addressed
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 6:49 PM BST
Correct, I have always maintained that the only solution to make in-running fair is to provide everyone with the fastest pictures possible.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 7:03 PM BST
have they become more delayed jack?
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 7:14 PM BST
No the delays are about the same as usual.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 7:24 PM BST
so the raw/outbound feeds or live at track still works... but no deliberate increase in the delays?
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 7:29 PM BST
ATR is about 4 seconds behind realtime on Sky and over 8 seconds behind on Virgin cable. RUK is about 1.8 seconds behind.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 7:30 PM BST
and

SIS
RUK

etc .... accoridng to you
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 7:38 PM BST
Turf Tv is about 1 second behind realtime and SIS about 2.4 seconds, but I don't use a trading shop so someone like the bank man could confirm these figures for you.
Report THE STATMAN April 3, 2009 7:46 PM BST
magician, do you know what betfairs views are on fast pics IR. are they happy with their commission and PC, or are they proactive in achieving a level playing field as far as its possible.
Report the bank man April 3, 2009 7:50 PM BST
yeah, as far as i am aware there has been no change to the delay of recent transmission speeds. i've spoken to a few different people in betfair about the chances of them getting involved, and the last time there seemed to be at least some kind of concern or willingness to get involved. lets not forget they did try to help atr keep atr extra on the go but they wanted £1500/meeting which was understandably too much. haven't spoken to betfair about this recently so not sure about the rumours about the flash pics, although this was brought up about 6 months ago when we had an account manager visit about the pc charge. they seemed hopeful that at some point the technology would be there to do this and at least they are aware of how this would improve the fairness of the markets. my big concern would be that flash pics are fast enough - i reckon you need to be an absolute maximum of 2 secs behind live but preferably quicker than that in order for them to be quick enough for everyone to compete with the track and raw feed players(if they exist).
Report Jack Bauer '24' April 3, 2009 7:58 PM BST
If they were to use the live feed direct from the track I think the delay would be under a second. I'm sure Pythia stated on another thread a few weeks ago that the tests Betfair have conducted have shown that the delay using Flash was minimal.
Report the bank man April 3, 2009 8:03 PM BST
thats promising news, lets hope the quality is up to standard as well. hopefully if pythia reads this thread he will be able to bring us some news. if not, i'll contact betfair about it in the next few days.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 8:04 PM BST
If pictures where fair - they could potentially build a great IR product, there would need to be warnings and protection

if things continue how they are it will die
Report THE STATMAN April 3, 2009 8:08 PM BST
yea, think it could only be a good thing for IR turnover, but if it stays the way it is i cant see how it is sustainable. but thats only my opinion.
Report the bank man April 3, 2009 8:10 PM BST
not sure of how they'd work out the legalities of it mind you, lets not forget that there are tv rights issues to be considered here. if it works in horse racing though, the world is their oyster as far as in running betting is concerned. fingers crossed.
Report barry spannerface April 3, 2009 8:39 PM BST
the magician,

the fairness of IR betting is not really the concern of betfair imo.....they simply create markets and manage them by letting their users trade/gamble and ultimately for their efforts in allowing users to bet on their interface receive commission....

how in this day and age betfair allow users to still lay 1000 bets on horses that PULL UP or FALL or refuse to race is morally wrong end of

IR betting on horse racing with the advent of one click software like gruss has made the markets very efficient and as many FT'ers will tell you the game is now hard and there is no free money about.

With the advent of raw feeds (yes they do exist quite frequently for the masses and for every sis meet for the priviledged few) and now turf being 0.8s (a massive edge on the flat) ahad of ruk and atr being c1.5s behind sis (which in turn is between 2.5 and 3 seconds behind realtime) and it puts into perspective how difficult it is for the stay at home player.

What is needed is for the speeds of atr, ruk and sis to be speeded up dramatically to c 0.7-1s behind live ie terrestrial type speeds/raw feed speeds so that it is a level playing field....the edge that fast pic players get then will be negligible and success ir will depend largely on how good you are

This will NEVER HAPPEN unless significant pressure is placed on betfair to act....as sadly they are not interested in mking it fairer for the masses which is why they have paid commission rebates to exchange shops since their inception.

The bankman is to be respected in his IR views as he has played the IR markets legitimately from a trading shop for a long time.....similarly while you appear to have an axe to gring re: betfair in the main the magician....your crusade for fairness in betting is to be applauded....i understand you have a profile which could create awareness of the issues and exert pressure on betfair, ruk, atr, racetech and sis to speed up the feeds for the masses

SIS is now very slow compared to how it used to play re: prices as more and more people use callers from the tracks, use internet on their phones at the track or wifi (eg wolves hotel or kempton restaurant) and the increasing use of raw feeds (leaked out by sis/racetech people)

In fact one forumite professed to knowing one racetech engineer who makes 250k per year from his van (i don't know whether this was true) and the 190 layer is almost certainly using sis live/raw feed

For the ft and occasional punters who play the game straight this is bad news.

The solution as Jack Bauer 24 puts forward is a good one ...to use flash pics like betfair provides for selected tennis and argentian/brazilian soccer matches which is marginally behind live

betfair could offer these to their customers for a small fee or for free if they played these races or even to premium charge customers or 2%ers free as a goodwill gesture

clearly there are political issues that need addressing and revolving between racetech/the tracks and betfair and exchange shops to be able to facilitate this but i would argue without this taking place the lifespan of ir horse betting will be dead inside 2 years

maybe someone like the magician aided by the bankman could instigate some much needed change in this area which not one person could argue including frog would be good for the ir horse bettor and make it as fair as humanly possible.

yours in sport
Report barry spannerface April 3, 2009 8:40 PM BST
the magician,

the fairness of IR betting is not really the concern of betfair imo.....they simply create markets and manage them by letting their users trade/gamble and ultimately for their efforts in allowing users to bet on their interface receive commission....

how in this day and age betfair allow users to still lay 1000 bets on horses that PULL UP or FALL or refuse to race is morally wrong end of

IR betting on horse racing with the advent of one click software like gruss has made the markets very efficient and as many FT'ers will tell you the game is now hard and there is no free money about.

With the advent of raw feeds (yes they do exist quite frequently for the masses and for every sis meet for the priviledged few) and now turf being 0.8s (a massive edge on the flat) ahad of ruk and atr being c1.5s behind sis (which in turn is between 2.5 and 3 seconds behind realtime) and it puts into perspective how difficult it is for the stay at home player.

What is needed is for the speeds of atr, ruk and sis to be speeded up dramatically to c 0.7-1s behind live ie terrestrial type speeds/raw feed speeds so that it is a level playing field....the edge that fast pic players get then will be negligible and success ir will depend largely on how good you are

This will NEVER HAPPEN unless significant pressure is placed on betfair to act....as sadly they are not interested in mking it fairer for the masses which is why they have paid commission rebates to exchange shops since their inception.

The bankman is to be respected in his IR views as he has played the IR markets legitimately from a trading shop for a long time.....similarly while you appear to have an axe to gring re: betfair in the main the magician....your crusade for fairness in betting is to be applauded....i understand you have a profile which could create awareness of the issues and exert pressure on betfair, ruk, atr, racetech and sis to speed up the feeds for the masses

SIS is now very slow compared to how it used to play re: prices as more and more people use callers from the tracks, use internet on their phones at the track or wifi (eg wolves hotel or kempton restaurant) and the increasing use of raw feeds (leaked out by sis/racetech people)

In fact one forumite professed to knowing one racetech engineer who makes 250k per year from his van (i don't know whether this was true) and the 190 layer is almost certainly using sis live/raw feed

For the ft and occasional punters who play the game straight this is bad news.

The solution as Jack Bauer puts forward is a good one ...to use flash pics like betfair provides for selected tennis and argentian/brazilian soccer matches which is marginally behind live

betfair could offer these to their customers for a small fee or for free if they played these races or even to premium charge customers or premim accounts free as a goodwill gesture

clearly there are political issues that need addressing and revolving between racetech/the tracks and betfair and exchange shops to be able to facilitate this but i would argue without this taking place the lifespan of ir horse betting will be dead inside 2 years

maybe someone like the magician aided by the bankman could instigate some much needed change in this area which not one person could argue including frog would be good for the ir horse bettor and make it as fair as humanly possible.
Report barry spannerface April 3, 2009 8:41 PM BST
the magician,

the fairness of IR betting is not really the concern of betfair imo.....they simply create markets and manage them by letting their users trade/gamble and ultimately for their efforts in allowing users to bet on their interface receive commission....

how in this day and age betfair allow users to still lay 1000 bets on horses that PULL UP or FALL or refuse to race is morally wrong end of

IR betting on horse racing with the advent of one click software like gruss has made the markets very efficient and as many FTers will tell you the game is now hard and there is no free money about.

With the advent of raw feeds (yes they do exist quite frequently for the masses and for every sis meet for the priviledged few) and now turf being 0.8s (a massive edge on the flat) ahad of ruk and atr being 1.5s behind sis (which in turn is between 2.5 and 3 seconds behind realtime) and it puts into perspective how difficult it is for the stay at home player.

What is needed is for the speeds of atr, ruk and sis to be speeded up dramatically to c 0.7 to 1s behind live ie terrestrial type speeds/raw feed speeds so that it is a level playing field....the edge that fast pic players get then will be negligible and success ir will depend largely on how good you are

This will NEVER HAPPEN unless significant pressure is placed on betfair to act....as sadly they are not interested in mking it fairer for the masses which is why they have paid commission rebates to exchange shops since their inception.

The bankman is to be respected in his IR views as he has played the IR markets legitimately from a trading shop for a long time.....similarly while you appear to have an axe to gring re: betfair in the main the magician....your crusade for fairness in betting is to be applauded....i understand you have a profile which could create awareness of the issues and exert pressure on betfair, ruk, atr, racetech and sis to speed up the feeds for the masses

SIS is now very slow compared to how it used to play re: prices as more and more people use callers from the tracks, use internet on their phones at the track or wifi (eg wolves hotel or kempton restaurant) and the increasing use of raw feeds (leaked out by sis/racetech people)

In fact one forumite professed to knowing one racetech engineer who makes 250k per year from his van (i don't know whether this was true) and the 190 layer is almost certainly using sis live/raw feed

For the ft and occasional punters who play the game straight this is bad news.

The solution as Jack Bauer puts forward is a good one ...to use flash pics like betfair provides for selected tennis and argentian/brazilian soccer matches which is marginally behind live

betfair could offer these to their customers for a small fee or for free if they played these races or even to premium charge customers or premim accounts free as a goodwill gesture

clearly there are political issues that need addressing and revolving between racetech/the tracks and betfair and exchange shops to be able to facilitate this but i would argue without this taking place the lifespan of ir horse betting will be dead inside 2 years

maybe someone like the magician aided by the bankman could instigate some much needed change in this area which not one person could argue including frog would be good for the ir horse bettor and make it as fair as humanly possible.
Report The Magician (6) April 3, 2009 10:03 PM BST
more than happy to work with bankman he is a realist
Report barry spannerface April 3, 2009 10:06 PM BST
that should read "would not be bad#

good luck with this project the magician....i wish you well as you come across as a good egg fighting for the smaller punter

incidentally that list you pubblished the other day...it includes one successful ir punter i know as well as one anti ir one....surprised someone like koo was not asked for input tbh
Report The Magician (1) April 3, 2009 11:57 PM BST
no-one was aksed because they would not know who to ask....

people vounterred...

and it is disappointly after submitting 11 passges they brush me off in one metions of something i CALLED FOR AND NO DISCUSSION OF TI AT ALL - OR JUSTIFICATION WHY THYE DID NOT CONSIDER OR IMPLIMENT MY CALL
Report The Magician (1) April 3, 2009 11:57 PM BST
sorry hit cap locks by accident
Report The Magician (1) April 3, 2009 11:58 PM BST
Anyway

it is unlikely to be the end of the IR, I suspect this might surface again shortly, and the submission will be published
Report the bank man April 4, 2009 8:31 AM BST
ok, unless there are things going on in the background at sis/turftv/atr/ruk that i don't know about its probably safe to assume that all my suggestions have fallen on deaf ears - fair enough, they're not obliged to do anything - i'll keep pestering them though. the way forward at the moment is clearly the flash pics option - i'll send an email off to betfair to see if there have been any developments.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 4, 2009 9:39 AM BST
Betfair could bring some semblance of fairness to ir horse racing as it stands by suspending a few furlongs out for all accounts bar those betting from trading shops or who could prove they had home sis. That would probably mean it would no longer be worthwhile having a raw feed or attending the course.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 4, 2009 9:42 AM BST
On second thoughts cancel the home sis as course / raw feed players would just sign up for that. Would there not though be a way to ensure people were playing from trading shops?
Report The Magician (6) April 4, 2009 10:29 AM BST
there are many ways to potentially**the IR betting interface...

1) they could also make the IR race a continous serieces of 3 second Mini auctions.


2) what about reversing the price prioty of the bets.... currently those in the systems are give price priority, make the bets entering the system have price priority

need to think if there are issues with that but I dont see them yet ( except for fast finger trades)
Report Special Cargo April 4, 2009 10:33 AM BST
For horse racing suspending as they pass the furlong pole would certainly be interesting.

No more money being nicked by people knowing the result. It would become more a case of judgement and the large sums wiping the market would end or at least be less likely.
Report Feck N. Eejit April 7, 2009 8:04 AM BST
Betfair could bring some semblance of fairness to ir horse racing as it stands by suspending a few furlongs out for all accounts bar those betting from trading shops. That would probably mean it would no longer be worthwhile having a raw feed or attending the course.

I didn't really expect any support for this despite the fact it would mean those in trading shops would no longer have to worry about the raw feed and course players and those shrewdies at home could continue to play as they claim they do now (i.e. they could submit up until a few furlongs out thereafter cancel only).

Given the lack of support, can we now put to bed this sh1te about trading shop players winning their money from trading shop players and those ridiculous 54%-46% GC figures?
Report MugsGame April 7, 2009 8:45 AM BST
Magician you really are clueless
Report The Magician (6) April 8, 2009 12:05 AM BST
Constructive post Mugsgame - care to give some reasoning or facts to back that up...

or is it a vested interest that you hold on IR that leads you to attack me without justification?

Interested to know ....

The Magcian
Report Feck N. Eejit April 8, 2009 7:45 AM BST
Betfair could bring some semblance of fairness to ir horse racing as it stands by suspending a few furlongs out for all accounts bar those betting from trading shops. That would probably mean it would no longer be worthwhile having a raw feed or attending the course.

I didn't really expect any support for this despite the fact it would mean those in trading shops would no longer have to worry about the raw feed and course players and those shrewdies at home could continue to play as they claim they do now (i.e. they could submit up until a few furlongs out thereafter cancel only).

Given the lack of support, can we now put to bed this sh1te about trading shop players winning their money from trading shop players and those ridiculous 54%-46% GC figures?


I'll take the silence as a Yes ;-)
Report The Magician (6) April 8, 2009 9:30 PM BST
the only people that bought the 55/45 split where the GC

And they are looking pretty silly for doing so, as are the individuals that feed it too them and mislead ito thinking it was robust data and conclusion
Report THE STATMAN April 9, 2009 12:36 AM BST
i shall wait for mugsgame to enlighten us all. with something other than a derogatory fcking insult.
Report Amanda Hugnkiss April 9, 2009 7:37 AM BST
MugsGame 07 Apr 09:45
Magician you really are clueless


He's not as clever as that mate.
Report The Magician (6) April 9, 2009 9:02 PM BST
another insult without data evidence - or logic?

Amanda - care to justify you comments? like Mugsgame I doubt it

people might not like, my black and white pedantic approach to fairness, losts of Pro IR players probably see a grain of truth in some of my arguements but dissagree with my stringent interpretation... fair enough they agree to disagree and we both move forward trying to make the playing field better for everyone.

but I doubt many or any would say that I am idiot - because I can assure you I am not

Pedantic - yes
black and white view of the world - I am an indivudal it is to be binary (for companies it is hard)
Stuborn - I dont think so
Big Ego - at times yes, driven by 1) and 2)

stupid, clueless, idiot less than clueless - you are sadly mistaken... but that might be my ego talking
Report The Magician (6) April 9, 2009 9:03 PM BST
it is easy to be binary
Report Sandown April 10, 2009 10:03 AM BST
Magician

Stick to reason, logic, evidance as you do. Those who can't string a coherant sentance or two together to form an argument do not help progress of any kind.

Went to Charles Darwin's house yesterday. Amazing to think that there are millions of people to this day who still believe that the earth was created 4000 years ago in perfect form.And some of these are scientists! Plenty of disbelievers on here even though none of us claim (as far as I know) that anyone is up to Darwin's equivalent.

Keep up the good work.
Report heynoodles August 30, 2009 11:15 PM BST
Starting to think you might have been right all along, Magician.

Betfair's solution on the slow pictures debacle - install a 20% tax on the people fleecing those using the slow pictures. So the losers get fleeced and Betfair benefit 10mil a year.

Everyone's a winner except the poor bloke unaware of the delay.

I often play on the place market where there is less liquidity (so you can clearly see how people are backing something that crucially changed a second or so previously) and can say with near 100% certainty people that some people are unaware of how far behind they are.

Finally, Betfair's suspending at the end of the race is a total joke. People are betting after the line on Turftv every day. I emailed them and they said theyd get back to me ages ago.

Bet-fair LOL.
Report heynoodles August 30, 2009 11:18 PM BST
*the significance of the late suspend means a bobbing heads finish on RUK might be a clear head either way on Turftv or live at the track.
Report Feck N. Eejit August 31, 2009 9:50 AM BST
ROFPML The exchange shop boys want ir banned because course trading shops are starting up.
Report heynoodles August 31, 2009 10:01 AM BST
Are you capable of serious debate or just point scoring?

1. SIS tracks already very very hard for flat racing so that on course venture makes no diff to me

2. I dont speak for 'exchange shop boys' just myself and most of them dont agree with me

3. I dont want to win money under false pretences

4. Betfair's suspend policy is a disgrace - but it favours exchange shop players

5. The premium charge is a joke and hounding people that may have tried to open new ac's also sucks
Report heynoodles August 31, 2009 10:05 AM BST
Where do you stand on that one feck? Its ok for the likes of you to open new a/c's under family members names with bookies but do it on here to avoid the pc and they lock your a/c, take the money with no appeal or evidence needed and threaten to close your ac down for ever if you dont comply. LOL is it the mafia.
Report frames August 31, 2009 10:25 AM BST
They have done this to you Heynoodles ?
Report heynoodles August 31, 2009 10:27 AM BST
No, but ive heard of 2 cases now that were handled the same way.
Report Feck N. Eejit August 31, 2009 10:56 AM BST
I think they should just allow them to avoid the pc and charge me more to make up for it.
Report in hell February 7, 2010 10:17 AM GMT
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