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Welshy
16 Nov 09 18:38
Joined:
Date Joined: 19 Nov 04
| Topic/replies: 92 | Blogger: Welshy's blog
Recieved this today having emptied my account and no longer use this site following the new premium charge rules. Am i legally obliged to pay ???



Your above account with Betfair has an outstanding balance, which is due to the Premium Charge and as a result it has left your account with a negative balance.

Please can you make arrangements to fund your account with GBP 336.40 to clear this balance.

NB. This payment will leave your account with a zero balance and additional funds would be required if you wish to continue betting with Betfair.

If you require any further details or have a query regarding this payment, please do not hesitate to contact us at premiumcharge@betfair.com
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Report roughyed. November 16, 2009 6:43 PM GMT
I doubt very much that they will take you to court if you refuse to pay it. The publicity would do them a lot more damage than the £300. Keep us informed though.
Report roughyed. November 16, 2009 6:51 PM GMT
This letter does constitute a change in policy though. I owed them 2k in May but withdrew everything until I needed to reload a month or so later (when I was under250 markets). I never received a letter or anything so maybe they are gonna go all out for these "debts".
Report JML November 16, 2009 7:09 PM GMT
You could argue that the T&Cs you agreed to in 2004 had no mention of PC.

Since that time there have been many changes to the T&C.

Have you ever recieved a letter or e-mail informing you of these changes?
Report JML November 16, 2009 7:20 PM GMT
I also doupt that they'll take you to court.

They'll proberbly link another account to yours and take it from that account.
Report The Investor November 16, 2009 7:52 PM GMT
As I understand, Betfair will not pursue this. If you fund your account at some stage in the future, the money will be taken.
Report chop180 November 16, 2009 9:33 PM GMT
Zero chance of you being taken to court.

The whole point of betfair is that, supposedly, you aren't given a credit account and can only bet with what you have as a balance. If they take away more than that (unless of course it is to correct something like a double payment or error), they will very likely be in breach of their license...
Report sirchristie November 16, 2009 9:41 PM GMT
had a similar thing with okcoral years back
got paid out o player of tournament only for them to a week later change payout to the german gk
just left account in minus and opened a new one weeks later
easy
Report Chester J Lampwick November 16, 2009 10:52 PM GMT
not easy to open an unlinked account on b f. I suppose if you are attracting PC you must be successful so 300 odd is small in the greater scheme of things. I moved to the p urple site briefly a few years back for 2% comm I think it was but it hit my profits hard as f all liquidity.
Report Hopeless bettor November 16, 2009 10:52 PM GMT
Don't they need a signed credit agreement for the debt to be enforceable ?

Just forget about it.
Report aye robot November 16, 2009 11:10 PM GMT
additional funds would be required if you wish to continue betting with Betfair.

That's their only sanction- you can't continue to bet here. If you don't want to bet here anymore anyway then you're fine.
Report owl4life November 17, 2009 12:53 AM GMT
interesting
Report Grunweld November 17, 2009 9:14 AM GMT
Gambling debts are not enforceable in law.
I don't know whether this would be classed as a gambling debt or not, but I still doubt it is enforceable.

I would be worried if it was a bookmaker's credit account, as they could post an adverse credit rating with the reference agencies, but as all BF accounts are deposit, then they won't be able to do this.
Report frames November 17, 2009 9:45 AM GMT
You are a consistent winner ,BF will be glad to see the back of you for the sake of £300.
Report jeepster November 17, 2009 9:48 AM GMT
Grunweld-the 2005 Gambling Act means that gambling debts are now enforceable in law.
Report Grunweld November 17, 2009 9:51 AM GMT
B. hell are they?
Thank god I don't have any bookmaker's credit accounts then.
Report Stow_judge November 17, 2009 9:52 AM GMT
frames 17 Nov 10:45
You are a consistent winner ,BF will be glad to see the back of you for the sake of £300.

Why on earth would Betfair care whether you win or lose?
Report jeepster November 17, 2009 9:54 AM GMT
however i very much doubt that a retrospective charge made purely due to the profitably of an account would be covered by it.
Report CLYDEBANK29 November 17, 2009 10:01 AM GMT
Gambling debts are enforceable by law but whether Premium charge debts are is debatable (on the grounds that they are too complicated for a reasonable man to understand) and I doubt Betfair would want to test the water.

If you are paying it regularly I don't know why you would want to stop betting here unless of course you feel that strongly about the principle of the charge or you are sick of the lifestyle and want to lead a better balanced life.
Report Manchester Untied Dave November 17, 2009 10:02 AM GMT
Why on earth would Betfair care whether you win or lose?

Winner spend their money, whereas losers churn it back. It's similar to certain Poker Networks, who impose fines on card rooms who have too many winning players. It's just money leaking from their system.
Report frames November 17, 2009 10:03 AM GMT
They don`t care whether you win or lose but they do care if you pay less than 23% of profits to them,I very much doubt they are disappointed to see him leave.
Report The Investor November 17, 2009 10:45 AM GMT
frames 17 Nov 10:45
You are a consistent winner ,BF will be glad to see the back of you for the sake of £300.


I don't believe that. Betfair are happy with people paying at least 20-23% of profit in charges, otherwise they would have made the Premium Charge a top up up to 30%, 40%, 50%... etc.

In any case I'm not sure I believe that people like me who used to pay around 10% of profit in charges were a burden to Betfair. If this were true, why is it that's Betfair's competitors are happy to offer me a flat 2% commission. Surely the same business rule would apply to them?

Let's say that Betfair decided to close all PC payers accounts tomorrow. Do you think that the other betting exchanges would see their profits reduced as these customers would open accounts with them?

I don't think the introduction of the PC was necessarily a bad business decision, but the explanation offered as to why it was implemented is certainly not applicable to everyone. Back when it was introduced I was asking a lot of questions, and I was told that people like me drain liquidity too fast. When I said there was a discrepancy there as I've deposited more than I've withdrawn, they told me:

"Please be advised that there is no current discrepancy. When someone wins on Betfair, they will continue to bet on Betfair. If they keep winning they will continue to use our exchange. When they lose they will bet less. If they keep losing they will eventually leave Betfair. "

Not sure about losers eventually leaving... but the first part will often be true.
It basically boils down to "We're charging certain people more because we can."

I'm not that worried about the PC as it is, but more about future changes. Not just to the PC, but to charges in general. As (or if) Betfair gets bigger, there will be more people making big money. Let's say someone is making £500,000 a year from Betfair, and that customer is already paying 50% of GP in commission. What's to stop Betfair saying something like anyone making more than £100k net profit on Betfair will have to pay an additional 25% of GP as these high earners are the ones who benefit most from our service. Like the PC payer, these customers may not be able to make the same amounts elsewhere.

Betfair could even send around the same email stating something along the lines of "don't worry, this will only affect a tiny amount of our customers."
Report frames November 17, 2009 10:55 AM GMT
Let's say that Betfair decided to close all PC payers accounts tomorrow. Do you think that the other betting exchanges would see their profits reduced as these customers would open accounts with them?

Why would they not already have opened accounts with them ? The reason PC payers are still here is because there is no where else to go for most , in fact I`m not sure why anyone who has a choice would still be here.My guess is that if they banned all PC payers at least 80% would have to find another source of income.
Report frames November 17, 2009 11:03 AM GMT
And increased charges is a certainty , every year I would imagine.
Report The Investor November 17, 2009 11:26 AM GMT
That's probably true frames, although I have made a profit on a couple of the other exchanges, it wasn't worth spending more time on as the profit from Betfair was much higher.

So yes, I have already opened accounts with other exchanges. The point is that I can only focus on one at a time, or it gets too confusing. I remember once I thought the prices on Betfair were completely out of line, and I was loading up on a rival exchange only to find that the prices on Betfair were out of date (maybe you've seen it sometimes, when you cancel a bet, and you can still see yourself in the front of the queue for ages).
Report jasonk178. November 17, 2009 11:40 AM GMT
tell them to go feck and switch to purple,the sooner it rivals this place the better.
Report Okuma November 17, 2009 12:31 PM GMT
He might not even be a consistent winner, maybe he just got lucky and that's why he is not continuing and paying .
Report Coachbuster November 17, 2009 12:53 PM GMT
It's an artificial debt as far as BF are concerned, it hasnt cost them anything .

Why would they be worried ?
Report luloo November 24, 2009 11:24 PM GMT
its a f----ing disgrace
Report Alex the old wrinkled retainer November 24, 2009 11:31 PM GMT
Coachbuster 17 Nov 13:53
It's an artificial debt as far as BF are concerned, it hasnt cost them anything .

Why would they be worried ?




It is contractual so they will want to collect.


If I thought about avoiding this then I would be concerned about what might appear on my credit history especially if the dodgy bad debt was with a betting organisation.


Just a view. :|
Report ELA MANA MOU November 24, 2009 11:36 PM GMT
a silly view, has others have said they are glad to be rid of winning punters, just like laddys and hlls, which betfair ahve become a clone of
Report ELA MANA MOU November 24, 2009 11:43 PM GMT
they arnt worried about 300, in the early days they would extend credit to anyone who asked, how much do you think they got back?
Report Kerrygold November 25, 2009 12:51 AM GMT
For the sake of 300 quid prob better paying it, even if it is later on

there will be a time when you will use betfair again s there is no place like it and wont be for a very long time , forget trying to open accounts in other names - hassle factor etc
Report luloo December 1, 2009 4:19 PM GMT
Recieved this today having emptied my account and no longer use this site following the new premium charge rules. Am i legally obliged to pay ???



Your above account with Betfair has an outstanding balance, which is due to the Premium Charge and as a result it has left your account with a negative balance.

Please can you make arrangements to fund your account with GBP 336.40 to clear this balance.

NB. This payment will leave your account with a zero balance and additional funds would be required if you wish to continue betting with Betfair.

If you require any further details or have a query regarding this payment, please do not hesitate to contact us at premiumcharge@betfair.com
unreal are they serious do they really exspect you to fund the acc so they can thive it off you i should imagine they had better not hold there breath while waiting.
Report The Investor December 1, 2009 4:44 PM GMT
If you're not going to use Betfair anymore in the future, you don't need to worry about paying it. However, at any time you fund your account, the money will be collected immediately.
Report Ron Pillock December 1, 2009 5:14 PM GMT
Bit silly of Befair to tip you off, they should have kept quiet and waited untill you reloaded then given you a nice surprise.
Report FGJJF December 1, 2009 11:39 PM GMT
Then surely that would be unethical and dam right dishonest as well as thieving
Report stu December 2, 2009 9:45 AM GMT
Things like this make me glad I never relied on betting for a living.

You could be a great winner for year after year, then something in the market changes and you are royally fecked. Must be a lot of successful guys who suddenly find they can no longer pay their bills - pretty horrible situation.
Report ELA MANA MOU December 9, 2009 5:36 PM GMT
Ithink you should pay,becourse since they dreamed this little jem upp they have lost a fair bit of commision who the hell would have abet knowing that if it won they would in effect be taxed at 20percent.
Report TwoTonTed December 9, 2009 6:05 PM GMT
regarding the point of linked accounts: I've recently moved home without telling them of a change of address and assume that I'll have a different IP address from before. Also got a different bank account in joint names with the Missus. Havent done so yet, but guess I can open a new account with the above and there's no way they'd ever twigg??

Or, will their systems notice that my IP has changed and then make the link etc etc. ??
Report subversion December 9, 2009 6:06 PM GMT
^^^^ the fact that you've just told them on their own companies public chat forum might give them a clue
Report viva el presidente! December 9, 2009 11:23 PM GMT
it's struck me from day one that the PC constitutes allowing people to bet on credit.

say gambling wizard mr x incurs PC in the Sunday night calculation. on monday he puts his entire balance on a horse. it loses. by allowing him to place that bet, BF have surely either allowed him to bet on credit, or forfeit their right to pursue him for the charge?

opinions?
Report Alex the old wrinkled retainer December 10, 2009 1:27 AM GMT
viva el presidente!


Well done on you obscure footie bet the other day. Hatrick bet I think. Top class.

Yes there is the potential to withdraw or tie up funds that will be taken for the PC but the issue will be irrelevant for 99.9% of PC payers, I suspect. In the days of modern technology why do we need to wait till Tuesday to see their calculation and then till Wednesday to see it go? I would much rather they just take the money on Monday morning then my balance is real and I can get on with it.

Why delay the calculation and then wait 24 hours to take the money? FFS just take it and if you get it wrong then we will settle up later.

I want my money taken first thing on Monday morning.
Report Alex the old wrinkled retainer December 10, 2009 1:40 AM GMT
It is not beyond the bounds of probability that there are some very high powered business people that take the odd punt or two here. They might be running their own businesses and be wondering. Maybe the VCs also look in and consider top management.

With this organisation I detect an autocratic leader with senior managers afraid to take bold decisions. I could be wrong but that is what I conclude.
Report viva el presidente! December 10, 2009 12:32 PM GMT
I want my money taken first thing on Monday morning.

------------------------------------

lol. after 14 months of the PC, finally we have formulated our demands. to the barricades!
Report maverick007 December 12, 2009 6:31 AM GMT
after formatting pc and losing my bookmarks just realised how bloody hard it is to find the address for the Prem charge portal
anyone have a link please?
Report Amanda Hugnkiss December 12, 2009 6:50 AM GMT
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
Report maverick007 December 12, 2009 6:53 AM GMT
thank you sir
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