Turning winners away, why

PC payers consistently back or lay at good value, that's why they're winners- and that's why they pay the PC.

The ideal customer for betfair is one who bets at 0 average value- IE backs and lays at odds that exatly reflect the likelhood of occurrences. If every customer bet at 0 average value then we'd all just pass money backwards and forwards between ourselves untill it was all whittled away by comission and we all had to deposit again to feed the beast.

Good bettors cut this process short by winning consistently and withdrawing money before it can be passesd backwards and forwards enough times for BF to get the lot. That's why betfair can do without winners and can charge us what they like. BF have nothing to fear from PC payers leaving as that would just leave them with a bunch of mugs losing all their money to comission.

I'm fed up saying this but, if they're regular pc payers then if the even money shot loses they'll get 20% of the stake deducted from their pc's. PML at the liquidity providers comment. If they provided any liquidity they'd be doing it on the purple site. Ponces and **s imo.

I'm not a ponce or a ** Feck, but I do agree that the liquidity providers argument is tosh.

You're not missing anything, it's the reason the smaller markets are dying out. Who wants to make a market when you might only lay one option and pay 26% if it wins. I don't, and neither do many others by the look of things.

Betfair is still great for trading, but it's crazy not to look for other options if you want to actually have a bet on something from start to finish.

Ultimately you're only "providing liquididty" if you're a net loser- otherwise you're withdrawing it.

No offence intended aye robot. Generally speaking I meant. I had to take a season out myself or I would've been hit prior to the lifetime profit change.

Who wants to make a market when you might only lay one option and pay 26% if it wins.

Eh, somebody that recognises they'll get 20%+ of their losses back if it loses?

Anyway, I shouldn't be on this thread. Spread all the misinformation you want. The who stinking mess deserves nothing better.

*The whole stinking mess

What misinformation. Unless I win the following week I get nothing back at all. Given that i can, and often do, go a month without showing a profit, there's no way I'm taking that risk.

Not only that, but they don't give it all back anyway. I'll pay my 4.8% when I win and it only rebates me 2.4%

Most decent bookies these days run to books of 102% overround, so even if I were guaranteed to get the money back, I'd still me losing out.

aye robot 29 Nov 17:02
Ultimately you're only "providing liquididty" if you're a net loser- otherwise you're withdrawing it.

What about if you're a net winner and PC payer and you've deposited more than you've withdrawn?

If you've deposited more than you've withdrawn you can't possibly be a net winner (unless you're using betfair as a bank account). Even if that's what youre doing (why?) you're still removing liquidity rather than providing it.

aye robot 29 Nov 18:34
If you've deposited more than you've withdrawn you can't possibly be a net winner (unless you're using betfair as a bank account). Even if that's what youre doing (why?) you're still removing liquidity rather than providing it.

I am a net winner. Although I will eventually withdraw more than I've deposited, my aim is to grow profits exponentially. To do that I need my bank to be getting bigger continuously. When I have twice as much in my betfair account, I will (expect to) make much more than I do now. I've compounded my bank by more than 100% per year since opening my account, and have added money to my account over the years.

Could you explain why you think I'm removing liquidity? Even Betfair themselves have admitted this is not the case after I emailed them with questions about the PC. They simply said "Customers that lose on Betfair will eventually leave, customer that win will stay". The money I win is being churned through the site again and again, it doesn't make too much difference if this is done by me or by a losing customer. Of course I will withdraw this profit at some stage, but my point is that the draining of liquidity takes place when profits are withdrawn, not when the money is won.

I'm quite close to reaching 3% commission now, after which avoiding PC altogether should become easier.

my point is that the draining of liquidity takes place when profits are withdrawn, not when the money is won

Assuming that you will eventually withrdaw your money your question is answered above- you will ultimately remove liquidity, whether you do it gradually week by week or all in one big go when you retire it's the same thing.

If you don't deposit- you're not "providing" anything, and quite right too, why would you want to provide liquidity? Nobody does it for fun, we do it because we know that ultimately we are taking more out than we're putting in.

There seems to be some incorrect ideas about liquidity floating around.
Liquidity has to do with th ease with which bets can get matched, not how much people have sitting in their BF a/c. A profitable market-maker creates a great deal of liquidity, even if he takes substantial profits out.

Robot
understand your '0' average point - however, many Pc payers win and lose on a wide range of markets - so any 'leavers' would affect liquidity to some, however small,degree
Feck
Im not talking about the win win win merchants that you go on about, I'm talking about the PC payers above

I'm personally a backer not a layer and I'm been driven away, cos this aint value anymore

I take your point moonlight, but my original point was that ultimately all the money in Betfair comes from losers as does all the comission, and that's why BF don't need consistent winners.

I don't enjoy paying PCs but I can see why Betfair require it and I won't be leaving any time soon.

Birch; If you made a profit before PC you will still make a profit whilst paying PC- it will just be a bit less. In all likelihood you will make about 15% less than you would have done under the simple comission structure. I find that I can live with that.

If, having won over an extended period you now go on to loose for an extended period you may end up a small net loser due to PC, but frankly if that happens you will have bigger problems.

"They simply said "Customers that lose on Betfair will eventually leave, customer that win will stay""

Even that claim is complete tripe. Do customers who lose money with bookmakers eventually leave?

Of course not, in all but a tiny number of cases.

Have betfair ever made a comment relating to the pc which is honest, accurate, or truthful? I have yet to see one...

BF don't need consistent winners.
They do if the consistent winners are the market-makers. And the market-makers will go away if they don't make a profit. They're not hobbyists and it's hard work.
They don't need hooverers, yet subsidise exchange shops with commission rebates. Ridiculous.

Yes I understand that, but how can I bet on here when I can get better returns elsewhere - my point is that BF loose my commision, and the commission of all others in the same boat

I just think less 'players' is a bad business decision and will reduce some liquidity, however small

that was a response to Robot

PCs but I can see why Betfair require it

Because they can get away with it, pure and simple.
They bet the business on getting away with it, imo unwisely. Now they think they are brilliant, because they bet a 1.3 shot at 1.2 and it won. Pure greed will be their undoing eventually.

Birch:

If you can get better returns elsewhere then obviously that's what you should do, then why would you need to care about all us dummies over here paying PCs?

To put another point:

From my perspective the more PC payers who leave the better that is for me as it will mean that with less competition I can get ever better prices off the net losers. Anything that increases the ratio of losers to winners is good news for the remaining winners.

Betfair certainly don't require the premium charge, because if they required it, then so would the other exchanges, and they clearly don't.

I mean require as a synonym of impose- they require one to pay.

Robot

I'm not infering PC payers here are dummies!
- quite the opposite

I'm trying to get views on why BF are turning winners away, because, for many, the value odds have evaporated with the PC -
and if this is a foreseen business decision

Unless , as a PC payer, you have a winning strategy that only this site can provide the foundation for, then its madness

I'm not infering PC payers here are dummies!

I know you're not, I'm just exaggerating to make the point.

How you opperate does make an impact on whether you're able to move. I am utterly dependent on BF's customer base and could not make a profit from a normal bookie. Like I said, I don't enjoy paying PC, but of all the charges I pay it's one of the ones I mind least. Compared to my water bill (a charge for an essential for life) I find a charge for making money relatively easy to swallow.

I'm just glad Betfair isn't run by someone like me- if I ran this place I'd bot the f uck out of it and make all the markets and almost no-one would make a profit. There are many of us here who thank our lucky stars BF leave us alone to get on with it- if I have to pay an extra 16% or so to keep it like that then I'll live with that.

In response to your questions about which markets Betfair trade in I can confirm that we have a separate group company that operate out of Malta and are responsible for any trading requirements. The main function of our trading team is to hedge liabilities that arise as a result of customers placing bets on our multiples product. The team in Malta will assess Betfair's exposure and place singles bets into the exchange with a view to reducing our liability. The traders in Malta have no access to customer data and their bets are placed via a regular Betfair account which are subject to the same in-play delays as any other customer. Furthermore our operation in Malta pays commission to Betfair at the same rate as everyone else.

From a recent forum post, said it was a letter from Customer Services.

Aye robot
You're always exaggerating, whether to make a point or not, aren't you ?
I'm glad you don't run BF too btw.

Just being facetious. Don't take offence please.

Having seen the recent upgrades from BF I'm not overly worried about them botting the place up.

Moon light
There's nothing really high tech about the operation of bots.
The underlying algorithms might get a bit mathematically complex, but that's a different matter entirely.

Don't take offence please.

None taken, no worries.

the value odds have evaporated

Could just be a change of strategy by the bookies, if you mean that BF odds are no longer better on faves. The bookies have been closing/restricting like Billy-O and offering BOG and so on as a fightback strategy. At the same time(-ish) as PC was introduced the whingeing threads re bookies went up.

There's nothing really high tech about the operation of bots.

There's nothing really high tech about making a few simple mods to the website either.
I reckon the people who wrote this site are long gone, prob working for Google or somesuch.