MANCHESTER UNITED

Hull packed the midfield.

The only way through was over the top.

We don't have a single target man.

Theres been another fa ck up

Luke Shaw

I genuinely haven't seen a fatter footballer ffs. An absolute disgrace of a player.

Big boned.

Harry out of position for the goal,followed the player on the fake run.

Stood and watched last week mind.

Decent goal there 1-1

Boo

Maguires shot was heading for the corner flag Thems the breaks.

Well well,
How long before Shaw gets a slight knock and is taken off as a precaution, and is out until after Christmas,
Never mind he's been responsible for 5 goals conceded in our last pre season game and two league games but he's still our only left back at the club.

The two right backs who neither are good enough in the own positions are going to be used as cover apparently with Dorgu and Baleba also in consideration if needed.

And all the while 115 charges are buying as if money is going out of fashion.

The premier league are a joke on that front and destroying their credibility.

I've cancelled sky and watch in other ways now in protest.

And back to the team,

Don't really know about the midfield but they all look like good signings for the money.
Time will tell whether they elevate us but with Carrick determined to only play two in front of that defence is going to make it hard for them to prosper.

Looked fine once we went ahead Sunday but very few teams will allow us the space Ipswich did.

A defence of Dalot Maguire Martinez and bloody Shaw will not cut it in the PL.

Low block hoping to counter is our only hope again and any chance of trying to play more progressively will have to be put on the back burner.

And with that issue above and the fact we now fave 4 genuine midfielders and 5 or 6 if you count Dorgu and Amad I think he should explore a 3 man midfield.
Over half of Bruno's assists came from dead ball situations last year and I'd presume another few came from a right forward position so actually playing him there might not be such a bad idea.
Whipping balls into Sesko and coming inside himself with less running to do might just make him even more productive.

It would also lessen his biggest flaw , namely losing possession in crucial positions leaving us wide open.

Worth a shot imo.

I like Bruno deeper myself, against Hull when we were up against a low block, Tielemans was deeper doing nothing and Bruno was further forward, he was almost a centre forward at times, with no space and he was completely ineffective, I like him in the deeper QB position where he can dictate play although I take the point of him losing the ball and putting us in trouble.

I think we can ignore the result from a perspective of an accurate assessment of where we are offensively as Ipswich simply fell apart and we were flattered.

The most pertinent point of the game was the first half when they waltzed through our midfield at will, Baleba will be sleeping well at night playing in our midfield that is for sure.

UH, when he's fit of course

Everton away should be an absolutely horrible game to play in, that would have been one of the easiest games United have had against them, space everywhere to attack and just some simple composure needed to be able to pick them off and we can't see it out.

We're starting to look like we did in those games with ETH where when defending a lead we would be desperately clinging on for dear life at the end of games.

Not many games UTD have controlled like that especially away from home in last few seasons...deserved to win...didn't.. but we got a few breaks last season winning games we didn't merit so just have to take it, some encouraging signs in terms of link up passing, relationships etc  but already behind any basic point target through 3 games so needs to kick on if not to be a tough season..

very surprised no LB deal was done...but Dalot has done it both for UTD and Portugal..and  seems they'll wait on Hall or another who would cost proper money, Hall deal was never going to happen at anything near sensible price after all the N'castle outgoings this summer.

Rashford's return which seemingly was mainly on Carrick, as INEOS very keen to find an out for him is.. if you get an effort from him a 60-70m player in this era...him and Shaw clearly link better than others have..

Thought we were impressive today. Rashford and Mainoo keeping that standard would be awesome. Can't do much about that equaliser, crazy goal.

Hall wants to go elsewhere hence not pushing for man utd transfer, they couldn't take him this window.

Dunno how it plays out, he's being offered new deal, and doubtless agents will have escape clause inserted, maybe he includes man utd, maybe not...

yep, was a bit of a sickener to play like that and not get the win but as I say ...got the rub a few times last season under Carrick..

where does he want out of interest yhtl ?

quite an easy fit at Utd if he has even a solid season...accept if N'castle have a great season he might well stay there with better contract..

Newcastle cannot pay the wages he might get at man utd or if he learnt Spanish.

I say not out of bias but he'd be better off at Utd than Spain....could do 8-10 years easy if he keeps his level and develops a bit (only 21)

Everton were impotent for much of the game but the two times we were ahead they suddenly found space and chances in our penalty area, I don't think it was any particular clever link up play through the middle that created space it was more that Everton were simply non existent in those areas and it was naturally there and as said this was as easy an Everton side that I've seen us play against in many years and we let them off.

By the way, where is Tielemans, I've barely seen or heard his name mentioned in three games, he is going through the motions....slowly!!!

Carrick has a problem now because the time has come for Sesko to start, Cunha playing in that role has hurt his form and confidence and he deserves a chance to resume playing in his normal position but Carrick's love affair with Rashford could leave Cunha as the odd man out.

I'm not sure Tielemans gets a strongest XI start if (quite a big IF btw) Baleba is the real deal..in terms of today I think with due respect he played some nice link up stuff but he and Mainoo can't long term be the CMF 2 with Bruno as a 10 (ish)...Utd play half decent so Everton are s*** is certainly possible though gives a team few opportunities for credit...both Cunha (especially) and prior to his high end finish Mbuemo need to be far more consistent to justify themselves..

I think he will do great in a team that plays a more defensive right back.

Going to, say, Barcelona, he's set up nicely in not having too much defensive work.

He's struggled twice now with Rayan breezing
past him on the outside, but stuck at it.

Take would be Rayan is a good player!

I'm not sure if it was you or me looking at a different game Brentford.

I thought we looked dreadful against the worst Everton side I can remember.

It wasn't just two worldies as Carrick said,

Everton had higher xg, more shots, more shots on target, more touches in opposition box, more tackles,more interceptions, more sprints and out ran us again.

Its a recurring theme.

20 times last season we were out run by the opposition,
Arsenal meanwhile were outrun 3 times.

They've  settled into cosy now with Carrick and have figured out he doesn't drop people once they're established.

I'll be honest if you thought we were dreadful I'd say it was you, respectfully..

Utd ran the game, twice lead and would have deserved the win tbh ...both XG's were low..surprised we only registered 0.69 tbh...

I'm not prone to talking up Utd performances and god knows there's been little reason to but thought they played pretty well today..each to their own I guess.

We were dreadful in as much as we had numerous times when the space was aplenty and after exposing them we didn't put them away, but this wasn't unpicking a lock, the door was wide open.

I expected that game to be United facing a low block with no space in behind and us having to find a way through a stubborn gnarly defence, that's what an Everton game for us should look like.

The way it panned out should have suited us, there was space to exploit everywhere and the opportunity to get through them on multiple times was there for us, we just didn't capitalize and then let them get at us instead.

apologies yhtl, only just caught your comment...fair shout.

Same thoughts as others - neither keeper with much to do but felt like we had numerous promising situations only to be let down by poor decision making, passes behind the man instead of infront of etc etc. Have always said Cunha is a player you want on the ball facing forward, not starting at centre forward and coming back.

When defending the lead, particularly at 2-1, there was way too much space around our defence. Rashford looked a threat but all other attackers were poor today, not only going forward but also defensively. The game was there in the 2nd half and we let it slip.

Unsure whether it's down to Carrick or the players but we don't look like a unit when trying to win the ball back - players still seem unsure who and how to press. Lots of arm waving and pointing going on and not as much tracking back.

It's not all negative, think Carrick is trying to implement a game plan with more control and less end to end games - see the type of signings in midfield - but he hasn't found the right balance or personnel yet. And it's an easy game up next in the league......

No probs Brentford, forum doesn't require swift replies.

You are probably right Brentford,  with the realisation we are again going nowhere and wasting more time on a model that won't work I'm probably approaching every game with a glass half empty attitude.

When Carrick took over I looked up what the Boro fans thought of him, always gives a better view than lazy pundits who might only have seen them occasionally.
Anyway the general consensus was they were glad to be shot of him ,  slow build ups,  no plan B , a hierarchy of players that always played irrespective of form, late like for like subs , little reaction to what's happening in front of him etc.

All seems so familiar to where we are now.

On a completely different note does anyone know if goalkeepers have their own personal coach or is it a club goalkeeping coach ?.

Dr Gea never left his line to intercept or claim a cross but we accepted that was who he was,

Onana was meant to be very proactive off his line but never showed it at united.

Now Lammens who got massive cheers when he claimed two crosses on his debut doesn't come out any more either.

Twice yesterday he had an easy claim a few yards in front of him but stood rooted to his line forcing the defence to panic clear it.
Another cross straight at him he mysteriously punched away for some reason.

It's a worrying sign to me.

I think Craig Mawson is still the club Goal keeping coach so I guess he does most if not all of the work with Lammens, yep he was a bit iffy at times yesterday though I think one of them he should have had a free kick... overall he's been very decent especially for the price paid but that part of his game probably not his best.

He's probably suffering a hangover from spilling one that knocked them out of the WC.

I've no idea why the Press are praising United's performance against Sabah. I expect City to win on Sunday.

No Rashford last night. Fear of being cup-tied?

you can't be cup-tied in the C, that ended years ago

Rashford came off in league v Everton with a niggle in leg. Probably not risked.

Sabah did miss two sitters...you know, in the interest of context.

They started a bit iffy, after that did the job ok and played with the handbrake and full bench quota for last part of the game...seeing as Citeh have 2 extra days, felt about right in the context..

I heard Hargreaves rather talking some of it up which felt a little inaccurate but we know everyone and their dog would have been on their case if any less convincing..

Losing to a dubious goal shouldn't hide the fact United were poor today.

Carrick and his backroom staff don't have a record of winning stuff and that doesn't look like changing anytime soon. 

Assistant head coach, Steve Holland, was sacked by his last club, Yokohama F. Marinos, after 4 months!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Carrick will be gone before the end of the season and he'll be replaced by Kieran McKenna. That may explain the quiet transfer window.

United don't really do proactive sackings preferring to burn seasons completely before acting.

Once Carrick has us within about 6 points of CL places I think they won't have the stomach to sack him.

The fact he's a yes man and won't rock the boat about recruitment is also in his favour.

If it were down to me he wouldn't be manager before today but certainly not after it.

I keep saying it but the Boro fans told us,

Slow build up, no plan B, sticking by favourites irrespective of form,

All what were seeing now still hinting that he won't or can't adapt so will never evolve.

Sack now and try save the season.

McKenna won't be the answer either and he's tainted by being Part of the ole Carrick threesome so no thanks.

When I saw Mckenna's name mentioned I couldn't believe my eyes.

Let's appoint a manager that is a proven successful manager in a top league in European football, you know, someone experienced at doing what they are going to be asked to do, if that fails at least you can fail whilst trying to do it the right way and giving yourself the best chance.

I do not understand the comments from some fans, "we tried that" well try it again, sometimes doing it the right way doesn't work, it doesn't mean you have to give up and start giving the job to novices.

McKenna has had great success with mediocre squads.

I see your point

I see the var referee was head of sports provisions at a school for eight years that was funded by man city while he was there.

Probably just coincidence like his mate Oliver funded by city for "education" purposes out there.

Howard Webb needs binning and United should be demanding that this morning,

It's not excusing the performance but two wrongs etc...

Howard Webb needs binning and United should be demanding that this morning,

Agreed.

This is just the latest in a long line of ****-ups.

The very least we should expect is that Howard Webb ensures that all referees know the laws of the game.

It's just standard procedure Norbert.

If your head of a government dept that's underperforming you have to go or the pressure goes higher,  same in industry ,  underperforming heads are out or the CEO goes, 
Howard Webb has presided over one scandal after another for years.

Time to give someone else a go.

United should absolutely be at least asking the question will he go if he can't get his team in order.

We know with the 115 charges and city's efforts to block and delay the hearings that they don't care for rules or fairness.
Apparently journalists have also been warned to leave it although plenty wouldn't have the appetite anyway after availing of city's hospitality.

It's widely known Russia befriend and help out loads of up and coming politicians and business leaders in the chance they get into real positions of power.

What's not as widely known is Israel and the more influential middle East countries also follow this procedure.

Every PL referee should have to disclose any potential conflict of interest issue at the start of every season.

Something that crops up afterwards should be immediate sacking.

Even if there's nothing untoward with Oliver and Donough the optics are shocking imo.

Donohue is also the linesman who lied in his report to get Mcguire suspended last season when he said he heard him say your all a fooking joke.

He later admitted he "misheard".

City even still have a photo of him on their website explaining how they funded his sports project at the school.

It was worse before Webb took over, I know, I know...


Some of the rugby var guys are excellent, but borderline decisions will always be borderline, and nobody can be perfect... See
maguire handball goal, but this offside yesterday is clear error to me.

Getting good video replay operators working alongside rules folk who act quickly and thoroughly is key,.. and not just appointing referees and assistants who are so used to seeing 3d stuff that they fail to view film accordingly.

Some of the stuff refs don't see is routine to linos and vice versa.

Fans staying tribal when these errors occur just ensure it happens again... There should be a consensus to get var working as well as
possible and if it's still carp then bin it.

Pro Ref is owned by the Premier League, the FA & EFL and there's just no accountability.

Everyone there, including the tea lady, should know the rules of the game and be able to operate the VAR position.

It's a cluster *****

Emmm, yes, they should, but if they can't, then get somebody who can. Tealadies are not ex refs patched into a job, and do a great job.

VAR is just another Refs opinion its not working .Im glad its not yet used in the Championship.

15 yo jj Gabriel refusing to train and looking to have his contract terminated over lack of playing time in first team.

Ironically was pencilled in to make his debut tomorrow night,

Reports his dad is a nightmare and impossible to deal with.

United hoping to resolve the issue,

Personally id kick him out this minute and remove their security passes,

Set some standards.

Money and ambition.

Probably been tapped-up by Hull.

Nah,  hes the best young talent weve produced in quiet a while,

More likely Barcelona tapped him up.

Ive seen a bit of him and hes quiet slight so a less physcical league like spain getting a few minutes at the end of 4-0 leads would be ok.

Couldnt be putting him in the PL ,  theyd break him up.

I was trying to be funny.

Can't blame the lad. United are a shambles.

I thought that was quite witty Nobby, Ineos and the Glazers are probably wandering what all the fuss is about, let the bidding war begin as he's all profit!!!

Not much profit for club if he walks away.

Seems to be happening quite a lot with these young lads
as clubs look to future profits.

Agents will be well rewarded for engineering free transfer.

15 yo jj Gabriel refusing to train and looking to have his contract terminated over lack of playing time in first team.

LOL lets be honest the game is f**ked if you even now have 15 year olds chucking it and refusing to play.

IMHO there needs to be rules brought in around this type of behaviour.

He can go per regulation for less than
£500k

Not exactly earth shattering MUNIE
Ratcliffe will be appaled

Especially if he realizes the potential he has been showing, there will be plenty laughing at us in years to come, it rivals Pogba going for free before buying him back for gazillions.

They should try to tie him down just so they can get a fee for him at a later stage. Worth throwing a few quid at it even if he doesn't deserve it. But the father is a big red flag and will only cause more problems in the future. He's acting like he's already Messi level at 15.

Dowman at Arsenal is 6 ft and 161 lbs, quite big for a 15/16yo, Gabriel is 5'9 and 131 lbs (estimated), that's too light for the first team and he prob still has a bit of growing to do.

When you buy SH I T
You get Manure

A lot of our players have little mannerisms or tells,  like Maguire pulling up one leg of his shorts at corners tricky situations or doing his little skip as he's running back into position after we've conceded or Dalot following through with his foot after the simplest of little passes etc but with Carrick it's the eyes.
A blank cold stare after we've conceded or lost all control,  stare , no emotion, no tweak no instruction just blank stare.

So so depressing.

We were schooled for 80 mins there, 
Out moved ,  out passed , Out fought, Out thought even.

Brighton played out effortlessly and the few occasions they  were in trouble they went long and won every second ball off our clearance.


Standards really need to be set and Darlow won't feature much anyway , Heaven is young and needs a while out but Dalot needs to be made an example of.
Show what can happen if standards drop continually.

He should be finished here really and a line put in the sand for going forward.

Shorter more relaxed training sessions my arse.

Dalot's last game should have been the one where a player jogged past him last season and he put his hand up to say yeah my bad!!

As someone said recently, if you've got him making 250 appearances for United it tells you all you need to know about the state of the club.

Agree with the Carrick thing, he looks scared to death....who knew!!

Our defence is a shambles whatever combination we play.

We need to sign a 'Steve Bruce' type player. Someone who'd put his face where others would fear to put their boot.

How much did Yoro cost?

I'd have thought Maguire was about as close to a modern day Bruce as anyone..

re JJ Gabriel, not a thing the club can do if he doesn't want to stay, he has about a year left on contract...

Utd have done everything right by the kid according to all available credible sources.

He's 15 and not that physically developed so he was never going to get much game time yet ( as referenced above by others he was due to play against Brighton). If Barca or Madrid are interested it's only ending one way these days (and though less clear cut, may well be the case even if Utd were stronger than they are)..

Utd have been poaching players to the academy the same way...

Ratcliffe 'must go' says Man Utd Muslim fan group

Why bother with an academy?

Why not just poach players when they are old enough to sign a proffesional contract and put them in the under 21s?

If your academy recruitment is good it generates money for the club, City have produced plenty of talent and therefore revenue from theirs, Chelsea certainly used to...Utd's was neglected for the best part of 2 decades but is now probably back somewhere close to what it used to be if still behind City..

The class of 92 was the academy working.

OK, unlikely anybody cops for an output like that again, but it sells a dream.

Problem....

Premier league is ultra physical,... Spain
offers a nice life and sanitised football.

I don't blame this kid for wanting to join Barca or Real Madrid.

United are a complete shambles.

a couple of slightly outdated articles but show the worth for big (rich) teams to get the academy working well..

https://onefootball.com/fr/news/the-442million-man-city-have-made-from-selling-academy-graduates-under-pep-guardiola-38136475



https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/40029184/chelsea-300-million-cobham-academy-sales-trevoh-chalobah/

brentford, that's all well and good but don't forget the owners can't even stop the roof from leaking.

Indeed, the majority owners that you've often defended..whilst criticising the minority owners who've actually tried to rectify a few things such as the academy (though I'd concede that small steps were happening on that front already - certainly with little input from the Glazers)..

I've defended the Glazers when they have been criticize for taking money out of the club.

They turbo charged commercial income and provided 100s of millions for  transfers and wages.

They aren't football experts and have been let down by the 'experts' they employed.

They employed someone to do that (Mainly Ed Woodward who helped devise the most destructive takeover of a top club)...

they didn't invest in players at Utd's high point, that was mainly reactionary,  they neglected the academy, they didn't install a modern football structure regarding recruitment and transfers, they didn't even fix the roof..

they did take massive sums out of the club that for what was virtually a zero debt club until their involvement...

SAF praised the Glazers for always providing the money for transfers.

and was on very nice retainer (probably rightly) until ineos got involved, possibly for his compliance or service...as the Glazers don't know a lot about the club's history, I'll take a guess at which..

Given recent transfers I'd take SAF's advice before the current regime's

Maybe so but he wasn't given that input when on the retainer...and the biggest transfer catastrophes are all pre Ineos...

They aren't football experts and have been let down by the 'experts' they employed.

Ed Woodward wasn't a football expert even by pub standards and they were or should have been aware of that...

no credible football structure was installed until Ineos and no attention was given to anything other than bottom line revenues which Woodward was able to temporarily exploit on the back of Utd success in a different era..

Employing the wrong people is on the employer.

Woodward was a businessman.


When SAF left why would you put a whole new football structure in place when you had won umpteen titles?

because football was changing, or you could even have trusted him and what was a slightly outdated model to heavily invest in players at a position of strength..

I've said it before but SAF's last  title was his most impressive, that side should not have won the PL...

Employing the wrong people is on the employer.

True, though I agree with Sir Norb that the Glazers financial scheme for United worked perfectly well. There has always been more than enough money to assemble a Top 3 in the world squad

A couple of times while United were getting a hiding from City or Liverpool, Sky put a caption on screen showing the City/Liverpool side on the pitch cost, say, £630M, and Uniteds was £710M.

they didn't invest in players at Utd's high point

Who could they have bought in 2008-11 that they didn't realistically? It was right then that Man City were spending limitless amounts on fees and wages (no FPP until 2012) and a player was only going to prefer United if they had a sentimental preference for them (as Berbatov and Van Persie reportedly did). City could always offer more even if there was no Glazer debts.

Also the team being so strong would have been a deterrence to some players; eg a top centre half would likely have to wait years for Rio and Vidic to make way.

After Fergie left it seems United's managers or whoever was making the calls just chose the wrong players, not cheaper ones than their rivals.

After Fergie left it seems United's managers or whoever was making the calls just chose the wrong players, not cheaper ones than their rivals

that's already major miss the point stuff...Utd didn't spend massive sums on absolute elite when they'd won the CL and lost a final, City weren't spending silly money in 08 either..far from it..

sadly I can't rescout 2008-2013 which would be more crucial end date btw..

Managers don't take full responsibility (far from it) in the last 20 years...many seem not to get this..that's why there should be a sporting structure in modern terms....DOF working closely with CEO, Manager and scouting dept..

Ronaldo's sale offset 3 seasons spending for a CL winner and following season finalist ffs...

and every season the ownership that oversaw the s***show take another between 25-50m out of the club in interest payments..whilst taking no responsibility for how the club is run..

and took share holding dividends for failure until relatively recently..

I just had a glance at the premier league transfers of 2011-13 and they were mostly rather weak 'draft classes', perhaps why  English clubs did so poorly in the CL between 2012-18.

Aguero and Eden Hazard were standouts, but as said City would outbid anyone at that time and Chelsea were outcompeting United for players before the Glazers showed up. Van Persie and Fellaini were 2 of the bigger money fees.

When you have a great team as United did late 2000s it's hard to avoid decline as you are hardly looking to replace players when they are in their prime , you are only really going for back ups or young prospects. So that makes signing elite difficult in itself. Because what elite player wants to sit on the bench?

I remember that period being debated some years later, on Redcafe I think it was, with the anti Glazers saying it was a no brainer to sign Arjen Robben in 2009, but Glazer debt interest stopped it.

That was pure retconning as no United fans were calling for Robben in Summer '09. Neither Chelsea or Real Madrid were bothered that he'd left them and it was a big surprise that he suddenly became the 3rd best in the world at Bayern.

If you're in a tough to attain European elite window you shouldn't have a negative spend over the key years...Utd did...

The decline started during fergirs latter years.

It's also true Citeh and Chelsea cheated to
fund their purchases.

But Liverpool built a team under Klopp, and
Arteta has managed at Arsenal, that are really very good.

So it is possible.

Why do people give the Glazers credit for growing revenues when every single top club's revenues went up massively in the same period? They sucked a billion out and presided over another billion being spent on dross while clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal bridged the gap by spending well and being successful on the pitch.

If United were successful on the pitch their revenues would be a lot bigger and they could have done it by spending half what they did. Ferguson papered over the cracks in his latter years. United are now like a club with the global fanbase of Villa/Everton due to horrific money management and the debt saddled upon them but with a massive global fanbase, still.

Fergies