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The other day I 'edged' a £25 football treble at Betfair Sportsbook (ie refund guaranteed if one of the three matches loses) but only two of the three matches were played, from which there was 1 win, 1 loss. The other match, at Juventus, wasn't played, due to snow. Betfair declared the edged treble a loss, quoting their rules on void matches, thus penalising me for the effect of the bad weather on the pitch as well as in effect declaring that they 'knew' Juventus would not have won!
To me, and I'm sure, to anyone with a modicum of common sense, whether a bettor or not, this rule is farcical,
absolutely unjust, clearly nothing but sheer greed on the part of Betfair Sportsbook. No manager was willing to discuss the matter when I called Betfair so I've taken it to their Escalations Dept.
Meanwhile, I'm not using Betfair Sportsbook at all, and I won't return unless I receive a refund, despite them having been my main bookie for several years. If necessary, I'll also take if to IBAS and challenge this iniquitous procedure, as well as publicising it wherever I can.
To me, and I'm sure, to anyone with a modicum of common sense, whether a bettor or not, this rule is farcical,
absolutely unjust, clearly nothing but sheer greed on the part of Betfair Sportsbook. No manager was willing to discuss the matter when I called Betfair so I've taken it to their Escalations Dept.
Meanwhile, I'm not using Betfair Sportsbook at all, and I won't return unless I receive a refund, despite them having been my main bookie for several years. If necessary, I'll also take if to IBAS and challenge this iniquitous procedure, as well as publicising it wherever I can.
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unfair that you haven't paid JJ the £50 you bet with him on the Arsenal thread. Why don't you go on there any more??!1 
There's one more season left for that one, lurka.
As for the Arsenal thread, I lost interest in that a long time ago, it was just the same old repetitious arguments, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.
As for the Arsenal thread, I lost interest in that a long time ago, it was just the same old repetitious arguments, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.
What would have happened if both the matches played had won?
I've checked the rules. The bet reverts to a double at the normal odds.
Imagine a zero sum coin toss treble. Heads or Tails are both even money shots.
There are 8 permutations.
HHH HHT HTH THH HTT THT TTH TTT.
You back HHH at 7/1 but you edge it so the odds are reduced to 4/1. This is because you now have one winning combination and 4 losing combinations. The other 3 combinations you get your stake back.
In this instance however the third toss never happens. The rules state that your bet reverts to a double at the normal odds of 3/1. (1 winning combination and 3 losing ones). Had the rules stated that the bet remains edged there would be 1 winning combimation and 1 losing combination, meaning had both won the bet would now be settled at Evens and not 3/1.
The upshot is Betfairs' rules are clear and fair. You don't have a leg to stand on.
Imagine a zero sum coin toss treble. Heads or Tails are both even money shots.
There are 8 permutations.
HHH HHT HTH THH HTT THT TTH TTT.
You back HHH at 7/1 but you edge it so the odds are reduced to 4/1. This is because you now have one winning combination and 4 losing combinations. The other 3 combinations you get your stake back.
In this instance however the third toss never happens. The rules state that your bet reverts to a double at the normal odds of 3/1. (1 winning combination and 3 losing ones). Had the rules stated that the bet remains edged there would be 1 winning combimation and 1 losing combination, meaning had both won the bet would now be settled at Evens and not 3/1.
The upshot is Betfairs' rules are clear and fair. You don't have a leg to stand on.
I think that your average punter is more likely to feel conned having 2 winners and being paid out at evens that having 1 winner and not getting their money back. So Betfairs' rules seem sensible to me.
Burying his head in the sand just like his idol Arsene.
Clydebank29, I maintain Betfair Sportsbook's rules for void matches in 'edged' bets are unfair.
Let's use a bit of common sense here. I signed up for a win treble, with a refund of the stake should there be one loser. I didn't sign up for a double, with Betfair in effect deciding the outcome of the void match. And I didn't sign up to predict the weather and whether a match might not be played.
As one online betting expert has told me, "Every bookie I know of counts postponed games as either void (in which case you should have got your stake back for the Edge bet) or the bet remains open until the match is replayed."
Your mathematical argument is pure humbug. The real issue is a question of good faith, which Betfair Sportsbook rules are failing to uphold.
Let's use a bit of common sense here. I signed up for a win treble, with a refund of the stake should there be one loser. I didn't sign up for a double, with Betfair in effect deciding the outcome of the void match. And I didn't sign up to predict the weather and whether a match might not be played.
As one online betting expert has told me, "Every bookie I know of counts postponed games as either void (in which case you should have got your stake back for the Edge bet) or the bet remains open until the match is replayed."
Your mathematical argument is pure humbug. The real issue is a question of good faith, which Betfair Sportsbook rules are failing to uphold.
JJ, let's get clear on this once and for all. There might well have been a misunderstanding re the dates of the first year of the three years span of the wager. Do you recall when we made the bet?
Betfair have made the match void. The only issue is your failure to read the rules, which are clear. They are also fair regardless of whether they meet your unrealistic expectations. IBAS is a complete waste of time.
The only chance you get anything is if Betfair think it costs them more to deal with your complaint (which it will) and think you are a good customer to them for the relatively small sum at stake that they relent and give you a one off ex gratia payment. I doubt it personally.
The only chance you get anything is if Betfair think it costs them more to deal with your complaint (which it will) and think you are a good customer to them for the relatively small sum at stake that they relent and give you a one off ex gratia payment. I doubt it personally.
AS I said, I disagree that their rules are fair, Clydebank. So much so that they'll lose me as a customer unless I receive a refund.
don't see your problem as offer is for trebles and above and with he jjuve game off you actually had a double.
The irony is that Juventus and Atalanta are due to play again tomorrow - in the Italian Cup, in Turin. Fair would be if this were taken to be in the treble!
sickoflayinwinners (!), the problem is due to my other two bets including a loser (as explained earlier).
I'll ask Betfair if they can include this Cup match in my treble, as they accept postponed games if played within a week.
i realise that, you think your bet should be a treble with one lose thus returning your stake but you've had a double with one loser therefore no refund is warranted.i know you will continue to say you've had a treble but with one NON RUNNER its a double and a losing one at that. i often feel the punter gets shafted but not in this case.
You leave out the obvious, common sense consideration that I signed up for a treble under restricted odds and, through no fault of my own, one of the matches couldn't be played. We're not supposed to be weather forecasters, are we?!
Anyway, the outcome of my latest appeal to Betfair has been positive, the telephone person agreeing I had a strong case and awarding me a £25 free bet.
A victory for common sense, thankfully.
Anyway, the outcome of my latest appeal to Betfair has been positive, the telephone person agreeing I had a strong case and awarding me a £25 free bet.
A victory for common sense, thankfully.
well done mike
tough one from both sides, but id be as annoyed as you if it had happened to me
tough one from both sides, but id be as annoyed as you if it had happened to me
If they paid out anything it will be only
because they have you down as an absolute mug.
I can only imagine the noise you'd have made
if your two selections would have won and
you only recieved your £25 back.
because they have you down as an absolute mug.
I can only imagine the noise you'd have made
if your two selections would have won and
you only recieved your £25 back.
That's good - half way to paying off the £50 you welched on.
No greater sin known to the common, decent man than to welch on a wager.
No greater sin known to the common, decent man than to welch on a wager.
Mike can you give me the name of the person you spoke to on the phone I'm going to cite this thread and your account as examples to get refunds on my last three acca's edges with void games.
Feb 28, 2018 -- 12:27AM, charwell. wrote:
That's good - half way to paying off the £50 you welched on.No greater sin known to the common, decent man than to welch on a wager.
I thought the greatest sin known to the common, decent man was to follow one of your tips
Hamlin, I'm afraid I don't recall the name of the man I spoke to last night. The other two telephone staff who heard my case on Monday also seemed to be on my side but after consulting a manager they had to deny a refund.
As there was no such consultation yesterday it's possible, I suppose, that someone had put a note on my records recommending leniency, particularly as I'd threatened to leave Sportsbook, go to IBAS and publicise the matter. Or maybe the phone staff are allowed to exercise some personal initiative?
Also, it's possible that the man was influenced by my pointing out that the same teams were due to play again tonight, again in Turin, albeit in a different competition.
Anyway, good luck with your attempt. Let's know how you get on.
As there was no such consultation yesterday it's possible, I suppose, that someone had put a note on my records recommending leniency, particularly as I'd threatened to leave Sportsbook, go to IBAS and publicise the matter. Or maybe the phone staff are allowed to exercise some personal initiative?
Also, it's possible that the man was influenced by my pointing out that the same teams were due to play again tonight, again in Turin, albeit in a different competition.
Anyway, good luck with your attempt. Let's know how you get on.
charwell, please read my post of yesterday, 14.59.
JML, although no doubt you enjoy making up stories to suit yourself, perhaps it's time you realised that imagination is a most unreliable faculty. Particularly when fuelled by chronic negativity.
Acca Edge will become void if any leg is settled void or any leg is subject to a Dead Heat Reduction. In such circumstances the bet will revert to a normal accumulator bet without the Acca Edge and be priced based on the original leg prices taken at bet placement.
https://promotions.betfair.com/betfairaccaedge/
IBAS would have thrown you out.
Yes, but the whole point of the exercise would be to challenge the wretched rule, to expose it as unjust, for the reasons I've already explained.
Without that wretched rule if I bet a treble of: Germany at home to Lichtenstein in a WC qualifier (or equivalent); a definite postponed match: and a 13/2 shot I would expect my money back every time the 13/2 lost.
I think you are a very lucky person to get a refund. As pointed out the rules are clear and other bookies do the same. Take it to its logical conclusion: you have a treble with acca edge insurance, two games are void and you lose the other. Would you want your money back then as you only lost one game?
When mikenichols started this thread he thought that everyone would agree with his view.
But everyone else seems to be in agreement that the bet was settled correctly and there was nothing
unfair about the rule.
mikenichols has decided that everyone else is wrong and continued to repeatedly phone betfair begging
for his money back.
Are betfair are company that cave in if you scream like a baby long enough?
But everyone else seems to be in agreement that the bet was settled correctly and there was nothing
unfair about the rule.
mikenichols has decided that everyone else is wrong and continued to repeatedly phone betfair begging
for his money back.
Are betfair are company that cave in if you scream like a baby long enough?
Yes, Charlie, of course I would. As I've explained, I signed up for an edged treble, not a double or a single. Any postp[oned matches should immediately make the whole bet void, with stake refunded.
Feb 28, 2018 -- 2:18PM, Charlie wrote:
I think you are a very lucky person to get a refund. As pointed out the rules are clear and other bookies do the same. Take it to its logical conclusion: you have a treble with acca edge insurance, two games are void and you lose the other. Would you want your money back then as you only lost one game?
It's just a case of most bookies will just fob you off with a free bet as a one off if you complain about something.
What Hippie says is a good point. Of without this rule it would become very abusable to know a game that will be postponed as it's not like markets are removed instantly, throw a load of trebles on with one high odds and one super short likely winner and get virtual risk free shots and landing a high odds winner.
JML, if you actually read the posts you'll see that opinions are mixed, certainly not unanimously against my stance.
"cry like a baby"?! Is that what you call standing up for fair play?! What's the matter - envy or are you just chronically angry?
Re that and the rest of your remarks, your gratuitous hostility isn't worth replying to, except that you sound an extremely unhappy man with rather a large chip on your shoulder, ready to offload your anger at the slightest pretext.
Get help, or at least pummel a pillow with a tennis racket and yell your head off every day before it's too late, would be my advice.
"cry like a baby"?! Is that what you call standing up for fair play?! What's the matter - envy or are you just chronically angry?
Re that and the rest of your remarks, your gratuitous hostility isn't worth replying to, except that you sound an extremely unhappy man with rather a large chip on your shoulder, ready to offload your anger at the slightest pretext.
Get help, or at least pummel a pillow with a tennis racket and yell your head off every day before it's too late, would be my advice.
n88uk - not if all edged bets were void (with refund) should at least one match be cancelled.
But that's much more problematic for the bookmaker. I think that point was made earlier. They would get far more complaints of you voided my winning double if they did that, and in that case they wouldn't have a leg to stand on as everyone pretty much knows if you have a void leg in your treble, it's now a double, it's just the standard accepted practice now, and probably the fairest way to do it.
the rule may well exist to stop abuse
it may be the case here that betfair looked at the punter (mike) and decided that he had not been abusing
the bet based on past use and felt a refund was therefore in order
moving forward, if it happened to mike again i doubt he would get a second refund
it may be the case here that betfair looked at the punter (mike) and decided that he had not been abusing
the bet based on past use and felt a refund was therefore in order
moving forward, if it happened to mike again i doubt he would get a second refund
What's the matter - envy or are you just chronically angry?
envy?--you're known as a welcher and before you made that third call to
betfair you had zero support for your case.in fact it was only Clydebank 29
and sickoflayingwinners that had expresed an opinion and both had agreed with betfair.
you have no honour or self respect,there is nothing to be envious about.
I don't know why you started this thread-anyone who replied had either to agree with you
or be wrong.
envy?--you're known as a welcher and before you made that third call to
betfair you had zero support for your case.in fact it was only Clydebank 29
and sickoflayingwinners that had expresed an opinion and both had agreed with betfair.
you have no honour or self respect,there is nothing to be envious about.
I don't know why you started this thread-anyone who replied had either to agree with you
or be wrong.
JML, I started this thread to publicise what I view as an unfair rule. Is that so hard to grasp? And I'm pleased I followed it up and achieved what I wanted. Nothing I've read here so far has changed my thoughts on the matter.
Hopefully, the result I got might encourage others (like Hamlin) to do likewise as I believe the terms of edged bets are iniquitous.
Sheer unadulterated bullshine re not wanting to pay a debt. See my post of yesterday 14.59. Or are you, shall we say, a rather 'selective' reader who jumps to conclusions while knowing nothing of who or what he's passing judgment on?
Hopefully, the result I got might encourage others (like Hamlin) to do likewise as I believe the terms of edged bets are iniquitous.
Sheer unadulterated bullshine re not wanting to pay a debt. See my post of yesterday 14.59. Or are you, shall we say, a rather 'selective' reader who jumps to conclusions while knowing nothing of who or what he's passing judgment on?
LOL you got to love the forum no one is every wrong.
mikenichols-you seem to be the selective reader.
I never accused you of being a welcher,just said that
you seem to be known as one.
I will admit that there is every chance that
those people making the accusations are wrong.
I never accused you of being a welcher,just said that
you seem to be known as one.
I will admit that there is every chance that
those people making the accusations are wrong.
And, of course, if they are wrong they should
come back and apologise.
come back and apologise.
n88uk says:
"They would get far more complaints of you voided my winning double if they did that, and in that case they wouldn't have a leg to stand on as everyone pretty much knows if you have a void leg in your treble, it's now a double, it's just the standard accepted practice now, and probably the fairest way to do it."
But an edged treble makes a difference, as the third match outcome is crucial. That's why I suggest that unless all three games are played, a full refund of the stake should be made, whether two played matches result in two wins or one loss, or whatever is the result of just one played match.
Betfair could make that crystal clear by putting the edged bet rules at or near the bet slip, thus preventing or greatly reducing complaints.
"They would get far more complaints of you voided my winning double if they did that, and in that case they wouldn't have a leg to stand on as everyone pretty much knows if you have a void leg in your treble, it's now a double, it's just the standard accepted practice now, and probably the fairest way to do it."
But an edged treble makes a difference, as the third match outcome is crucial. That's why I suggest that unless all three games are played, a full refund of the stake should be made, whether two played matches result in two wins or one loss, or whatever is the result of just one played match.
Betfair could make that crystal clear by putting the edged bet rules at or near the bet slip, thus preventing or greatly reducing complaints.
Ok, JML, although to state "you're known as a welcher" sounds pretty damning to me!
Lol moaning over a£25 bEt most on here have lost 10s thousands,
It's not just a matter of £25, mega88, there's a principle of fairness involved, with a possible (though I concede, unlikely) chance of getting 'edged' bet rules changed at Betfair Spoersbook.
Feb 28, 2018 -- 5:44PM, mikenichols wrote:
n88uk says:"They would get far more complaints of you voided my winning double if they did that, and in that case they wouldn't have a leg to stand on as everyone pretty much knows if you have a void leg in your treble, it's now a double, it's just the standard accepted practice now, and probably the fairest way to do it."But an edged treble makes a difference, as the third match outcome is crucial. That's why I suggest that unless all three games are played, a full refund of the stake should be made, whether two played matches result in two wins or one loss, or whatever is the result of just one played match.Betfair could make that crystal clear by putting the edged bet rules at or near the bet slip, thus preventing or greatly reducing complaints.
You are asking to change the historical accepted rules though. It's way harder to accept my winning bet voided than someone's losing bet not getting money back, given it's a promotion in the first place.
I understand that, n88uk, but it's not really a winning bet as with just 2/2 the 'edged' promotion criteria aren't fulfilled. So a refund seems fair to me.
i think there are only the two ways and i agree that any rule
that can result in a winning double being voided has to be a non starter.
the only realistic choice for betfair is to keep the rule as it is or stop
taking edged bets.
if both selections had won would mikenichols have ordered betfair to reclaim
his winnings in the name of principle of fairness.
that can result in a winning double being voided has to be a non starter.
the only realistic choice for betfair is to keep the rule as it is or stop
taking edged bets.
if both selections had won would mikenichols have ordered betfair to reclaim
his winnings in the name of principle of fairness.
No, JML, I wouldn't have claimed anything if I'd got 2/2 as the postponed match plus the 'edged' factor would have meant an inconclusive outcome. In such a case, as I've said, let the client receive a refund of the stake.
Sure, I'd be disappointed, but that would be tempered by realising this was a special promotion, therefore different to a normal treble where 2/2 plus an unplayed match would produce a winning double.
Sure, I'd be disappointed, but that would be tempered by realising this was a special promotion, therefore different to a normal treble where 2/2 plus an unplayed match would produce a winning double.
you wouldn't have had to claim anything,betfair would have
automatically paid money into your account.
so you log on and find £100? extra in your account because they
have paid out on a bet which you strongly think should have been voided.
Do you ask them to take this money back?
automatically paid money into your account.
so you log on and find £100? extra in your account because they
have paid out on a bet which you strongly think should have been voided.
Do you ask them to take this money back?
Good question, JML. Of course I wouldn't complain about any profits from 2/2, given that's the existing rule. But that wouldn't affect my stance on 'edged' bets with 1/2 wins and a postponed third match (or that, to be fair to Betfair, 2/2 'edged' trebles should also be voided).
why not give an option for bet to run at revised odds, or void bet if one or more non runners
a simple tick box could pop up with each bet placed with an option to always take same option
of course if books were hedging or arbing against the bet then they could not offer the service
bookies falling over themselves these days to let punters build their bets, so a simple check
box for options in case of non runners would seem a decent option.
i can after all opt to substitute for non runners on my lucky 15 to maintain my treble odds concession!
a simple tick box could pop up with each bet placed with an option to always take same option
of course if books were hedging or arbing against the bet then they could not offer the service
bookies falling over themselves these days to let punters build their bets, so a simple check
box for options in case of non runners would seem a decent option.
i can after all opt to substitute for non runners on my lucky 15 to maintain my treble odds concession!
I think the problem here is what mike thinks he signed up to is clearly not what he signed up to and he somehow is blaming betfair for his inability to read.
i'm fairly confident that you were aware of the rule in question
before the bet was placed.
since you regard it as a horrendously unfair rule why didn't
you share your concerns with betfair at the time?
before the bet was placed.
since you regard it as a horrendously unfair rule why didn't
you share your concerns with betfair at the time?
You assume wrongly, JML, I assure your confidence is entirely misplaced. Otherwise I certainly wouldn't have pursued this issue with such zeal.
"Inability to read", eh, Hamlin? Strange that some find it so difficult to accept the simple truth, ie that I had no idea what the 'edge' rules are when I made this recent bet (or when I've made occasional other such bets), in fact I never really thought about it, except that one loser meant a refund, not a loss.
"Inability to read", eh, Hamlin? Strange that some find it so difficult to accept the simple truth, ie that I had no idea what the 'edge' rules are when I made this recent bet (or when I've made occasional other such bets), in fact I never really thought about it, except that one loser meant a refund, not a loss.
I must admit I misunderstood your OP. I thought you were complaining that as one game was called off you hadn't got a refund because only one game had lost (the edge) - hence my second post. I didn't suss that you were saying the bet should be void.
I still think you were very lucky to get a refund. Bookies usually state their rules quite clearly on these types of event and it's up to the punter to read them.
I still think you were very lucky to get a refund. Bookies usually state their rules quite clearly on these types of event and it's up to the punter to read them.
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