England's big 4

I agree, if you want to win the league you must have a dominant back 4. Jose has already bought Bailly and the press are reporting he wants another centreback.

Pep reportedly wants his back 4 to knock it about at the back. That should be interesting, wonder how many clean sheets they will keep.

A fair point
But more important is to have a philosophy that works.
If you are keeping possession of the ball for 70% of the football game, then the chances of you conceding is less than if you get 40% ball.
That appears to be Gaurdiolas philosophy, tho I must say i share the OPs scepticism on that in the epl
Jose's philosophy of defensive solidity has its downside too.
HIs record against the traditional recognised power house teams in the epl is outstanding.
But against teams who offer a defensive stance his teams can struggle to score goals, they drop points. Often with uninspiring draws.
Now in this era of the epl it is getting harder to distinguish the power houses from the also rans...

Varane is never going to leave Real Madrid for any EPL team, why would he? Marquinhos won't go unless PSG are happy to sell. Bonucci is probably impossible to get now Juventus are selling Pogba, Juventus are hardly likely to sell Pogba and Bonucci in the same window.

pity
without bonucci i think juve would be even more bang average than they are at the moment.

How are they 'average'

One of the Top 5 teams in Europe.

Lots of shocks, again this season,

Man City will probably win the League
Chelsea may struggle again and at best may just scrape into the top 4
Man Utd read Chelsea
Arsenal can see them finishing 5th or 6th
Leicester I reckon they'll finish around 10th this season
Liverpool and West Ham may well finish in the top 4
Tottenham another likely 2nd for them

Now you might say not too many shocks there, but I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal all finish below 4th.

I disagree about Spurs and I am a Spurs supporter. We missed our chance last year and with the Champions League to focus on this year, my feeling is we shall be lucky to make Top 4. We couldn't even manage second last season - still we finish below Arsenal. Incredible after the season we had.

Unless Arsenal splash the cash they are never going to win the league either I am pleased to say. As long as Wenger remains in charge they will remain a Top 4 team who make the last 16 of the Champions League and then get knocked out.

Agree with you on Wenger, they'll get rid of him, I think, as I think they'll struggle this season.

West Ham seem incredibly overrated on the strength of adding very little to their squad so far. Top 7 maybe, top 4 pretty much no chance.

Arsenal probably will "struggle" but still end up finishing top 4. They struggled last year and finished 2nd.

I'm in the camp that Tottenham blew their chance too. It's just hard to see the Premier League being as bad as it was last year. Chelsea imploded early. Man City imploded mid-season, Man Utd imploded all season. It's hard to see all of them not being far stronger next year, just on change of managers alone. That makes things much tougher for Spurs who are unlikely to be much better than last year. I can see Spurs maybe top 4, can't see them challenging for the title though.

Liverpool's signings have been awful imo. I thought Klopp would do a good job, and was kind of worried about Liverpool, but the players they brought in don't impress me at all. They seem to have strengthened in about the only position they didn't need to strengthen and not strengthened in any of the key areas they needed to.

and not strengthened in any of the key areas they needed to.

Apart from goalkeeper. And CB. Which were two of the biggest priorities.

if spurs blew their chance it was before we knew we had a chance. drew 8 of the first 16. from then on until the last 4 games when it was over anyway we were miles clear of the rest including leicester

they didn't make any mistakes. lost 1 game after beating us at WHL in mid january. no one leaving WHL that night thought we'd blown our chance of the title - arsenal were well clear and hot favourites at that stage. didn't even think we were in it. at the time it seemed any old game between 2 sides battling for a top 4 spot. would had to have won at least 15 of the last 17. impossible

How can anyone dismiss signings as 'awful' before a ball has even been kicked? Your crystal ball must be better than mine.

Aug 1, 2016 -- 2:17PM, Can't Catch Me wrote:

and not strengthened in any of the key areas they needed to.Apart from goalkeeper. And CB. Which were two of the biggest priorities.

They bought 2 very average players in these positions, hard to call that strengthening. Is like saying Arsenal have strengthened at CB signing Rob Holding, how many Arsenal fans do you think still think they need a CB?

And on your next post, isn't the point of a thread like this to judge. Anyone can say after time, oh the signings were sh*t. You can predict now. And for me Mane and Wijnaldum although ok players in themselves aren't really players Liverpool needed, how do Liverpool even plan fitting all these players in? That sort of area of the pitch was one of the few areas Liverpool were arguably already strong.

The whole point is to make a judgement now. After Liverpool sold Suarez, there was arguments on here, with Liverpool fans saying they'd strengthened the overall squad, and others saying they'd just bought a load of average players. The whole point of a thread like this though is to take a judgement now, not when you have the results in front of you at the end of the season.

By blew their chance Mafeking, I didn't mean you got in position to win it and lost. I meant will the league ever be that weak again for Spurs to be in with a shout. For me Spurs were no better last year than when they were often battling for 4th and finished 4th or 5th, just the rest of the top teams were so crap that it happened you were a lot higher and seen as in the mix because the top team was Leicester who were expected to blow it at some point.

Which is why I expect Spurs to go back to that this season, not really in with a sniff of the title but challenging for 4th, and finishing 4th or 5th.

i expect we will get other chances in say the next 20 years. when we move into the new ground the financial gap to the rest of the big 6 will be closed significantly but as arsenal have shown spectacularly that doesn't necessarily translate into lots of trophies

I thought Spurs were significantly better last season than when they were finishing 5th/6th.

The points total may not have been much different but they were dominating most games. The year before they had a freakish number of late wins after getting outplayed.

I agree with n88 about Mane and Winjaldum.

Mane just seems the sort of player you'd expect to see in a side finishing about 6th. Won't weaken Liverpool but for £35M you should be getting someone proven Top 4 level.

I have no idea what Klopp saw in Winaldum last season to be paying £25M . Newcastle bought him for half that and I'd have thought they'd be glad to make their money back.

The younger players bought cheaply could be anything though you couldn't have high expectations.

yep tobermory we were top of virtually every important statistic except points unfortunately. you'd have to say 71 was a freakishly low total for such domination of most games

go back to 2013 when we finished 5th on 72 bale carried a moderate team almost singlehandedly there was no comparison in level of performance compared to last season

we paid the penalty for 4 or 5 home games which we led, couldn't put the opposition away and ended up losing or drawing

N88uk. Of course the point is to have an opinion now, and everyone is entitled to one, but how much do you know about the other signings? I would suggest very little, based on your posts. Yet you're telling me they aren't very good.

Joel Matip was voted in the Bundesliga team of the season last year. So in the top two CB's in the whole league. Yet you're telling me you know he's not very good? Karius was voted third best keeper in the Bundesliga, yet youre also telling me he isn't any good, and more importantly, neither of these players are an improvement on Mignolet or Martin Skrtel?

If Matip isn't better than Skrtel, I'll give up the game. And I'm virtually certain Karius will be better than Mignolet.

One of Liverpools biggest issues last season was height. We were a small team, and that's been addresses with some of the purchases. Similarly pace. Klopp's methods require pace and speed in the transition which we didn't have last year. The likes of Mane and Wijnaldum will help significantly with that imo.

I will also be very surprised if Mane doesn't represent a significant upgrade on Lallana, who is one of the least effective footballers in the league, for all that he's pretty on the eye.

And as for comparing Arsenal signing an unproven young lad from Bolton, to Liverpool signing an established player form the Bundelsiga, that's quite frankly ridiculous.

Aug 1, 2016 -- 6:01PM, tobermory wrote:

I thought Spurs were significantly better last season than when they were finishing 5th/6th.The points total may not have been much different but they were dominating most games. The year before they had a freakish number of late wins after getting outplayed.

How much are the big games influencing this though? The took far more points off the big teams than they were ordinarily would. It just seems a total anomaly for the big teams to be as bad as they were last year.

It says it all that general consensus would be that Arsenal were poor last year, yet they actually finished 2nd, their best finish in 11 years. But their fans know that it was a golden opportunity to win the league and pretty much no-one was giving Arsenal any praise for finishing 2nd in what was clearly the weakest Premier League in some time.

West Ham & Spurs are both benefitting from have tough no-nonsense astute managers. Those two make average players play very well.

West Ham.  In the league last year we scored the same number of goals as Arsenal. Only leicester, Spurs and Man City scored more goals.
We conceded more goals than Watford and West Brom.  We conceded 51 goals the same as Palace.

2016/7.  Our LB is out for up to 4 months.  We don't seem to have adequate cover for him.  Our manager continues to use Antonio as a RB.  Playing Antonio as a rb in a back 5 is debatable.  Playing him as a rb in a back 4 is just cruel IMO.
In attack we have not yet signed the marquee striker we have been chasing all off season.  We have also just agreed a fee to sell our best striker.  Most hammers think Carroll is our best striker but I think it is Sakho.
So as it stands i think we are weaker both in defence and attack.

By blew their chance Mafeking, I didn't mean you got in position to win it and lost. I meant will the league ever be that weak again for Spurs to be in with a shout. For me Spurs were no better last year than when they were often battling for 4th and finished 4th or 5th, just the rest of the top teams were so crap that it happened you were a lot higher and seen as in the mix because the top team was Leicester who were expected to blow it at some point.

Which is why I expect Spurs to go back to that this season, not really in with a sniff of the title but challenging for 4th, and finishing 4th or 5th.

You couldn't be more wrong. You are wrong about last season. Spurs were not better - or worse - than they had been when finishing fourth or fifth under Rednapp or AVB; as if their progress had been part of an evolution of which Pochettino was merely the latest curator. Spurs were completely different. It is not the same club any more. It's not the club it's been since Gascoigne left, and it's not the club it ever was before he arrived.

It had to happen really. Spurs are a massive club, and sooner or later Levy would find the right man for the job. It is as simple as that. Pochettino has made Spurs something they have never been, in one season. He is just getting started, and he has a young squad that believes in him totally and contains some of the best players in the Leage in all positions.

Spurs will not revert to being also-rans while Pochettino is in charge. They will be better again this season.

Mane looks like a player you would expect to see in a top 6 side is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this forum.If a manager thinks he can improve a player he must be backed to do so.

I've seen a lot of people dissing Mane, they are gonna look proper mugs.

Liverpool and chelsea have a massive advantage with no european football - all the stats say so
Dont fancy spurs at all in the PL this year given their first year in the CL. Cant see them having the resources to strengthen the squad given the move to the new stadium - will defo finish outside the top 4 for me
agree with the original poster about defensive weaknesses of the supposed top PL sides
will be an interesting season with Pep and Jose in manchester given their history and whether jose will revert to the classless piece of scum he truely is or will be able to keep a lid on it

I don't see how you can say that you think Spurs will finsih outside the top four and then agree with the opening poster about defences being key. Spurs clearly the best defence in the League, all season long.

And we do not need to add to our squad. We only need to improve a few points, and given the age of our squad and the fact that Pochettino is clearly a judge, it's unlikely we won't improve more than a few points.

will struggle with the CL commitments Jed unless they strengthen the squad significantly
dont underestimate the impact it has playing at that level in midweek and then again at the weekend especially if they get a couple of key injuries

Don't think you can take it away from Spurs scoring late, it's a sign of strength when a team finishes games strongly so I think that's a big plus point for them. Champs leg will have an effect though for cert.

Spurs had the Europa League last season though. If anything, the CL is easier, in terms of travel and amount of games, so I personally can't have that as a negative for this season compared to last.

I woildnt have Spurs going backwards, but I do think they have been very reliant on Kane, and based on his performances in the Euros, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a less successful season this year.

N88. Still waiting for you to back up your assertion that Matip and Karius are 'very average' please and your knowledge of said players?

Think the difference with the CL is that you cant get away with making changes and resting players for the weekend particularly in the group stages
I rate Spurs but first year in the CL can sometimes be an eye opener

Tough group and they could be out at the group stages anyway. That's only six games extra!

Yes but can have a serious impact on confidence to go out at the group stage
worse you finish third and end up in the Europa
Just think they need to add a couple of quality players but probably havent got the financial muscle at the moment

Aug 1, 2016 -- 6:45PM, Can't Catch Me wrote:

N88uk. Of course the point is to have an opinion now, and everyone is entitled to one, but how much do you know about the other signings? I would suggest very little, based on your posts. Yet you're telling me they aren't very good. Joel Matip was voted in the Bundesliga team of the season last year. So in the top two CB's in the whole league. Yet you're telling me you know he's not very good? Karius was voted third best keeper in the Bundesliga, yet youre also telling me he isn't any good, and more importantly, neither of these players are an improvement on Mignolet or Martin Skrtel?If Matip isn't better than Skrtel, I'll give up the game. And I'm virtually certain Karius will be better than Mignolet. One of Liverpools biggest issues last season was height. We were a small team, and that's been addresses with some of the purchases. Similarly pace. Klopp's methods require pace and speed in the transition which we didn't have last year. The likes of Mane and Wijnaldum will help significantly with that imo.I will also be very surprised if Mane doesn't represent a significant upgrade on Lallana, who is one of the least effective footballers in the league, for all that he's pretty on the eye.

We will see on most of this. I still think overall there is a defensive weakness. I'm not really convinced Karius is a significant upgrade on Mignolet, but we will see.

I strongly disagree with the stuff on Mane. To me Mane is a hot and cold player. He plays 1 good game every 6, will score 2 goals and look world class 1 week then go missing the next 5. I also don't see how Liverpool can really fit in all of these players. Mane, Wijnaldum, Coutinho, Firmino, Sturridge, that's pretty unbalanced.

but will mean there is a good bench

It's all relative here. We are in effect discussing who has made the most improvements. There was only 5 points last year separating Arsenal, Tottenham, Man City and Man Utd. Chelsea were an abomination, but it just seems impossible for this to happen again.

Manager wise I'm not sure the Premier League has ever had as a strong a managers in charge of the clubs as right now across the top clubs. But someone pretty much has to not hit expectations, as you've got 6 clubs to effectively fit into 4 places for starters. And honestly a number of these clubs won't even be happy with just 4th either.

Well I guess if Sturridge is the usual what will end up happening is it will be Firmino/Mane up top anyway.

And when you look at it like that, 5 points really highlights how small the margins are. Given Spurs are perceived to have had a great season last year, yet were 4 points above Man Utd and Man Utd fans will say it was some of the worst football they've ever watched last year. Man City seemed to not really be in it mentally for some reason or other, and as I said before Arsenal are perceived to have been poor but finished 2nd.

Its keeping key players fit
Leicester had a fantastic run and could virtually name an unchanged eleven
City have the Kompany problem
Man U need to strengthen at the back as their squad is thin there
Arsenal always seem to pick up injuries at the wrong time

So you think there is a defensive weakness, but didn't mention again the CB we've signed who was in the Bundesliga team of the season

Our biggest weaknesses was set pieces. He's also massive, and had most headed clearances in that league last season as well.

Personally I've no idea if Mane or Wijnaldum will be any good. But clearly goals was also an issue for us last season. And both these two each scored more than any other Liverpool player last season. So Id imagine that was one of their biggest plus points to our scouts.

I personally think Klopp has improved Liverpool a decent amount this summer.

But the improvement in finishing position next season will be negligible for all the reasons mentioned already. City, Utd and Chelsea will almost certainly be a lot better. Liverpool have to improve a decent amount just to challenge the top four.

think you could have at least half a dozen guesses at the top 4 in any order and still not get it right

Totally agree with that mafe. Good luck anyone risking a big bet on the outright this year, I'm leaving it alone until the season gets going.

Think the main improvement will be that Klopp has had a full pre season

Karius is top quality. Mignolet won't get a look in when he's fit.

Hope so Die Linke.

I'll be surprised and a fair bit disappointed if the signings we've made from the Bundesliga aren't pretty decent, given the Managers knowledge, contacts and reputation.

That's despite n88 saying they are 'very average'. I'll have a fiver he's never even seen Matip or Karius play.

I thought this thread was about the BIG 4???

This is a PREMIER LEAGUE Fred sol. I'm afraid you won't understand it's nuances.

OK, as it is open to comments re ALSO RANS, Hull to be relegated is my NAP.

Every aspiring top club should have a German keeper. There's enough to choose from. I remember the days when England had a couple of world class keepers!

Doesn't it depend on who they appoint?!

Brave napping that until you know the Manager imo.

Club is in absolute turmoil, CCM.
Daddy's boy on a power trip.
No signings.
Helped myself to Evens a couple of weeks back.

Wait until they install Senor Bobby. That will look the best bet of the decade.

The lack of signings does make Hull seem goners tbf, there is still time for that to change though.

I'm still waiting for my bets to all be matched.
The one that has I'm super confident of.

Liverpool are top 4 Certs.

Aug 1, 2016 -- 3:04PM, n88uk wrote:

By blew their chance Mafeking, I didn't mean you got in position to win it and lost. I meant will the league ever be that weak again for Spurs to be in with a shout. For me Spurs were no better last year than when they were often battling for 4th and finished 4th or 5th, just the rest of the top teams were so crap that it happened you were a lot higher and seen as in the mix because the top team was Leicester who were expected to blow it at some point.Which is why I expect Spurs to go back to that this season, not really in with a sniff of the title but challenging for 4th, and finishing 4th or 5th.

The League, won't be any better this season,  the EPL is the most over-rated League in the world. we used to dominate the Champions League, now we generally have 1 side in the last 8 and they get knocked out, at that stage.

It will, because no way will Utd, City and Chelsea be as bad as last year, that alone will make it better. I will be shocked if any of these teams don't better their points tally from last season comfortably.

The the big boys will be picking up all the major honours whilst the rest of the smaller clubs will be picking up the scraps