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Warning to all players!
If you have non-matched bet and the play gets suspended, your bet gets automatically matched if unfavourable to you.
It just happened again, I had hanging bet Malaga-Barcelona, correct score 1-3, at 1-2 current. Unmatched odds 4.5, current 3.7 when Malaga equlized 2-2 and game got suspended. Cancell all unmatched didn't work, but my unfavourable bet was immediately executed during suspension time at odds far away from the last ones.
This is not isolated but regular behavior of BF website.
Shame on you Betfair.
If you have non-matched bet and the play gets suspended, your bet gets automatically matched if unfavourable to you.
It just happened again, I had hanging bet Malaga-Barcelona, correct score 1-3, at 1-2 current. Unmatched odds 4.5, current 3.7 when Malaga equlized 2-2 and game got suspended. Cancell all unmatched didn't work, but my unfavourable bet was immediately executed during suspension time at odds far away from the last ones.
This is not isolated but regular behavior of BF website.
Shame on you Betfair.
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so you think you should have been allowed to cancel a losing bet 
Bets shouldn't be matched during a suspension, that's the point.
It means there is no way anyone could match any bet during suspension. Noone was matching way off line bet at the last moment.
You're being denied to cancell unfavourable bet even if not matched.
You're being denied to cancell unfavourable bet even if not matched.
I think he's saying he tried to cancel an unmatched keep bet during the suspension and it wouldn't let him.
if that's the case, i'd phone them. was this the new "improved" site or the old style one?
if that's the case, i'd phone them. was this the new "improved" site or the old style one?
the bet wasn't matched during the suspension, it was matched before the suspension.
Read again. The odds right before the suspension were 3.7 while the unmatched bet was 4.5. No way my bet so far back in line could be executed before the suspension.
ball hits the net . then it got took before he cancelled simple
one step ahead
one step ahead
late suspend
though of course that would be denied, what's the delay on these games now?
though of course that would be denied, what's the delay on these games now?
yeah, it could - especially in spanish football. if the score you're trying to back becomes impossible, someone will try and hoover up everything before the suspend hits.
if they have real time info, it's not unheard of for hooverers to beat the suspend.
you need to find out definitely when your bet was matched.
if they have real time info, it's not unheard of for hooverers to beat the suspend.
you need to find out definitely when your bet was matched.
It was new improved site, viva el presidente.
And I'm not whining about lost money, it was just 50-60€, this is just a warning to you all.
Take it or be a next victim.
And I'm not whining about lost money, it was just 50-60€, this is just a warning to you all.
Take it or be a next victim.
And regarding suspension delay, it was about two seconds after scoring. The execution has delay of 8-9 seconds. That's why I very strongly believe in Betfair misbehaving.
Players in Spain regularly beat the suspend though
How is that possible Winner Winner?
Even if the live tv is being delayed for a few seconds, someone still needs to beat nine seconds bet execution delay.
Even if the live tv is being delayed for a few seconds, someone still needs to beat nine seconds bet execution delay.
How long is the delay on tv though, much more than a few seconds. The Spanish markets are a constant problem, I dont play them and have not for years
the delay on british TV for spanish football is often humungous.
heard the first goal tonight on spanish radio in my kitchen. I was half way up the stairs before I heard the suspend hit on Geeks Toy.
bottom line: you can't trust the suspend to protect you on spanish football.
heard the first goal tonight on spanish radio in my kitchen. I was half way up the stairs before I heard the suspend hit on Geeks Toy.
bottom line: you can't trust the suspend to protect you on spanish football.
betfair claim all unmatched bets are automatically cancelled at the suspend.
i am telling you.the suspension is seconds after the goal sometimes..somebody tookkk your money after the goal but before the suspension
the spanish games can be 10 seconds behind at times so the 8 second clock wont save you.
Jan 24, 2013 -- 11:23PM, Winner_Winner_Chicken_Diner wrote:
Players in Spain regularly beat the suspend though
brtfait isnt in spain anymore
brtfait isnt in spain anymore
If you mean Betfair isn't available in Spain, that's not strictly true. Anyway the topic's been covered ad nauseum on the forum already.
If you mean Betfair isn't available in Spain, that's not strictly true. Anyway the topic's been covered ad nauseum on the forum already.
i don't do much in play. but i see freds like this on a regular basis.
it seems obvious to me that there are people getting round the delay. what's it now 10 secs or so?
if bf wanted to protect some of their customers they'd make the delay longer, but that would lessen turnover and therefore profitability.
but it would stop the "stroke pullers".
it seems obvious to me that there are people getting round the delay. what's it now 10 secs or so?
if bf wanted to protect some of their customers they'd make the delay longer, but that would lessen turnover and therefore profitability.
but it would stop the "stroke pullers".
or, they'd just aggressively void hoovered bets and shut down the offending accounts.
explicitly put it in their T&Cs (if it's not there already), then just do it at their discretion when it's obvious.
which it usually (as in this case) is.
which it usually (as in this case) is.
and when they say they they just fancied a punt and initiated the trade from this country?
"tough, it's in the T&Cs. like it or lump it"
so somebody who fancies a punt gets penalised because he places his trade at the wrong tine?
surely it's better to increase the delay if some people are managing to cheat by getting past the delay?
surely it's better to increase the delay if some people are managing to cheat by getting past the delay?
I've recently been asking for slightly better odds than is available (1 tick usually) on unders markets in football, leaving them up waiting for a match as people gradually lay at the best odds (the odds I'm trying to back). Literally 5 times in a row today there's been a goal within seconds of me placing these bets and in every case I was hoovered and left committed to a market I didn't want to be in following a goal. Back to taking the odds available I guess...
I've never EVER seen a bet matched during suspension. I've seen late suspensions/hoovering + keep bets taken after a goal though.
The market is just locked out during a suspension. Spanish matches are always the subject of talk about hoovering.
The market is just locked out during a suspension. Spanish matches are always the subject of talk about hoovering.
mexicano: yep. if you genuinely "just fancied a bet" it would work for you as often as against.
but I'm not talking about reversing small bets at the market. I'm talking about large bets taking out several ticks a moment before the suspend. use Geeks Toy's live charting, hoovering has a pretty clear signature.
I would put something in the T&Cs explicitly saying that any bet which matched two criteria could be voided at BF's discretion:
1) it was matched within x seconds of a suspend-inducing event
2) it was matched y ticks below the best available offer z seconds previously.
but I'm not talking about reversing small bets at the market. I'm talking about large bets taking out several ticks a moment before the suspend. use Geeks Toy's live charting, hoovering has a pretty clear signature.
I would put something in the T&Cs explicitly saying that any bet which matched two criteria could be voided at BF's discretion:
1) it was matched within x seconds of a suspend-inducing event
2) it was matched y ticks below the best available offer z seconds previously.
because the increased delay's already p!ssing people off and driving away liquidity. see repeated threads here and in GB.
so the price for increased liquidity on the in play market is the facility for people to cheat?
TBF I suspect that at least one of the loudest shouters about increased delays is a hooverer himself.
at the moment? yes and no.
lengthening the delay makes IP betting less attractive. but letting people get hoovered deters people from putting up offers in play.
investor's posted some decent stuff about this.
lengthening the delay makes IP betting less attractive. but letting people get hoovered deters people from putting up offers in play.
investor's posted some decent stuff about this.
probably true JC.
but the longer the delay, the less attractive an IP bet is. I hate doing anything on here with a delay over 6 seconds.
but the longer the delay, the less attractive an IP bet is. I hate doing anything on here with a delay over 6 seconds.
it seems to me that bf have got a few customers, who've managed to aquire an edge [have they got people at the match with a phone connection to somebody over here?] that is costing their genuine customers money.
they could easily negate that edge by increasing the delay, or come up with a system that dosen't facilitate the cheats.
they could easily negate that edge by increasing the delay, or come up with a system that dosen't facilitate the cheats.
or speed up their lines of communication to in play events.
well, you said "or come up with a system", and that's not an or.
lengthening the delay is the answer they've come up with, but a lot of people already complain it's too long.
the only other alternatives I can see are voiding bets that look like hoovering, or just leaving football markets unmanaged. they tried the latter and it just doesn't work.
lengthening the delay is the answer they've come up with, but a lot of people already complain it's too long.
the only other alternatives I can see are voiding bets that look like hoovering, or just leaving football markets unmanaged. they tried the latter and it just doesn't work.
yeah, faster feeds would help, but they've pushed for it and presumably aren't going to get anything better than they've got by now.
plus, apparently their suspends are essentially third party anyway.
plus, apparently their suspends are essentially third party anyway.
yeah, I was replying to your previous post.
basically, there are no easy solutions, just least bad ones.
basically, there are no easy solutions, just least bad ones.
and people are trading in these markets?
i know increased liquidity is the aim here, but if the price of it is for some on here to mug off others, well that price is too high.
i know increased liquidity is the aim here, but if the price of it is for some on here to mug off others, well that price is too high.
today something like that happenend in Indian Football, grhhhh
well, the first thing absolutely required for liquidity is In Play market makers. so if they don't feel confident that they're at least sufficiently protected from hoovering to make a reliable profit markets die.
the second thing that's required is people willing to match the prices they see. so if the length of delay puts them off, liquidity also dies.
so, it's hard.
the second thing that's required is people willing to match the prices they see. so if the length of delay puts them off, liquidity also dies.
so, it's hard.
well;
it seems to me that you're quite happy to do whatever you do with a 6 second delay [presumably because you think you have some kind of edge]. whereas you dissaprove of the people who've gained a bigger edge [therefore they have an edge on you], so you want their trades voided, but yours left alone?.
it seems to me that you're quite happy to do whatever you do with a 6 second delay [presumably because you think you have some kind of edge]. whereas you dissaprove of the people who've gained a bigger edge [therefore they have an edge on you], so you want their trades voided, but yours left alone?.
not really.
1 I've virtually never taken out multiple ticks on an IP trade.
2 I mostly put up prices rather than take them.
3 I use analogue radio commentary to protect myself. if reception's dodgy on the spanish and i can't hear what's happening, I just don't get involved. it's not safe.
1 I've virtually never taken out multiple ticks on an IP trade.
2 I mostly put up prices rather than take them.
3 I use analogue radio commentary to protect myself. if reception's dodgy on the spanish and i can't hear what's happening, I just don't get involved. it's not safe.
so you're "at it" with an analogue radio, while they're "at it"by having a man at the ground
?
?
no, because I don't use radio to try and beat the suspend, but to cancel offers. which is why I've pretty much 100% managed to avoid being hoovered.
you seem to be determinedly obtuse tonight, mexicano.
you seem to be determinedly obtuse tonight, mexicano.
not obtuse at all, merely pointing out that you want things all your own way, you're quite happy to be assisted by an analog radio, but the people who can get better "assistance" than you are out of order and should have their winning bets voided.
because they're trying to beat the suspend, which is cheating, and I'm not.
so why are you listening to the quickest feed you can get?
It's quite obvious what viva is doing and he's doing nothing wrong.
Saying he's doing something wrong is like saying it's wrong to have locks on your doors. Or have doors.
Saying he's doing something wrong is like saying it's wrong to have locks on your doors. Or have doors.
you shouldnt have to be glued to an analogue radio to protect yourself vs hoovering.
bf need to lengthen their suspend periods or improve their own communications. i bet you the bookies dont let themselves get hoovered so why does bf think its ok to allow their layers to be. pretty soon they wont have any layers IP.
there's a new kid in town at the purple place, time to sharpen up your act mr bf.
bf need to lengthen their suspend periods or improve their own communications. i bet you the bookies dont let themselves get hoovered so why does bf think its ok to allow their layers to be. pretty soon they wont have any layers IP.
there's a new kid in town at the purple place, time to sharpen up your act mr bf.
bf need to lengthen their suspend periods or improve their own communications. i bet you the bookies dont let themselves get hoovered so why does bf think its ok to allow their layers to be.
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basically bf are allowing their layers to be hoovered because it's more profitable for them that way.
everybody knows the answer.
the "straight" players want it.
but those who are getting match information a bit quicker don't.
what they want is the people who are getting the info quicker than them taken out of the game.
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basically bf are allowing their layers to be hoovered because it's more profitable for them that way.
everybody knows the answer.
the "straight" players want it.
but those who are getting match information a bit quicker don't.
what they want is the people who are getting the info quicker than them taken out of the game.
others sports like basketball and tennis dont have any kind of suspension during the game... football should be the same...unmanaged.
if there are hooverers with v fast feeds/info, they are more than likely paying max premium charge and therefore bf make more money if the bet is matched and the hooverer wins. BF are under serious pressure to increase revenues as the stock price has dived and investors are furious, hence the premium charge.
Basketball/tennis don't have suspends because one score doesn't change the outcome of the game/odds that much (like a goal in soccer) or if it is match point or a score in the last seconds of the game, you know the next score is coming one way or the other. People still trade in play without suspensions in high scoring sports. Without suspensions in football only those with the fastest feeds would risk trading in-play but nobody else. You need the fast guys to market make and the slower normal punters to market take to make a fluid market. Have a look at the liquidity in the unmanaged markets, abysmal.
It seems to me to be a problem with the speed of feeds coming from Spain only. Are the Spanish slowing down these feeds in order to hoover? Given the amount of money that can be made I would not be at all surprised.It doesn't seem to happen very much in other countries.
BF should be able to find out the exact second a goal is scored and then check for bets placed at that time looking for odds way above/below the then market price. It should be easy to identify hooverers from this but if they are paying more commission, there may be no incentive to reverse the bets as it will cost bf commission, there may be revenue targets that have to be met.
If you use AGT or trading software, then on the ladder you should be able to see bets cancel (large chunks of queued money disappearing at the same time, these large chunks usually belong to the guys with the fastest info) just before a goal. If you follow the money and cancel when you see the money disappear then you can avoid hoovering. No matter how fast a feed is, it will always take 8-9 secs longer to place the hoover bet than it will to cancel the queued money and once you see it disappear you should be able to beat hoovering by 6-7 secs at least. You can cancel instantly. It is much easier to see the money disappear in tennis or basketball, as scores happen way more often. The big chunks of money belong to the fast guys, they can risk huge sums because they have an edge over others in the market.
But this is not a satisfactory way of avoiding it, obviously. BF should be protecting us all by reversing suspect bets and suspending their accounts.
Basketball/tennis don't have suspends because one score doesn't change the outcome of the game/odds that much (like a goal in soccer) or if it is match point or a score in the last seconds of the game, you know the next score is coming one way or the other. People still trade in play without suspensions in high scoring sports. Without suspensions in football only those with the fastest feeds would risk trading in-play but nobody else. You need the fast guys to market make and the slower normal punters to market take to make a fluid market. Have a look at the liquidity in the unmanaged markets, abysmal.
It seems to me to be a problem with the speed of feeds coming from Spain only. Are the Spanish slowing down these feeds in order to hoover? Given the amount of money that can be made I would not be at all surprised.It doesn't seem to happen very much in other countries.
BF should be able to find out the exact second a goal is scored and then check for bets placed at that time looking for odds way above/below the then market price. It should be easy to identify hooverers from this but if they are paying more commission, there may be no incentive to reverse the bets as it will cost bf commission, there may be revenue targets that have to be met.
If you use AGT or trading software, then on the ladder you should be able to see bets cancel (large chunks of queued money disappearing at the same time, these large chunks usually belong to the guys with the fastest info) just before a goal. If you follow the money and cancel when you see the money disappear then you can avoid hoovering. No matter how fast a feed is, it will always take 8-9 secs longer to place the hoover bet than it will to cancel the queued money and once you see it disappear you should be able to beat hoovering by 6-7 secs at least. You can cancel instantly. It is much easier to see the money disappear in tennis or basketball, as scores happen way more often. The big chunks of money belong to the fast guys, they can risk huge sums because they have an edge over others in the market.
But this is not a satisfactory way of avoiding it, obviously. BF should be protecting us all by reversing suspect bets and suspending their accounts.
in other words, if you watch the ladder and are experienced in watching these markets, you should get a fairly clear warning sign of a goal 6-7 secs before the hoover bet hits the market.
But from the OP's post, he is saying that the market suspended and his bet was unmatched at that time (2-2 suspend), that the unmatched bets were not cancelled, market unsuspended and he got matched at 4.5 by a layer probably offering 1000 on 1-3. That is similar but not the same as hoovering as I understand it, hoovering always happens before suspension in soccer. OP check the market rules, if the market suspended and they didn't cancel your unmatched bet then that is clearly in breach of BF's own rules and they should refund you regardless. Are you sure this is the sequence of events? As it is Spain I'd say the chances are you got matched before susp.
But from the OP's post, he is saying that the market suspended and his bet was unmatched at that time (2-2 suspend), that the unmatched bets were not cancelled, market unsuspended and he got matched at 4.5 by a layer probably offering 1000 on 1-3. That is similar but not the same as hoovering as I understand it, hoovering always happens before suspension in soccer. OP check the market rules, if the market suspended and they didn't cancel your unmatched bet then that is clearly in breach of BF's own rules and they should refund you regardless. Are you sure this is the sequence of events? As it is Spain I'd say the chances are you got matched before susp.
At the moment watching Stoke-MU. There is no a second delay on three different satellite channels and it is hard to believe that Spanish broadcastings could have such huge delays.
At BF the default refresh is five seconds I believe, so I would surely be able to see the bet matched before suspend, regardless of live delay, leaving me wondering who would be so crazy to match so unfavorable odds.
Instead, it looks much more indeed like hoovering, but still with hard to believe timing possibilites.
Unless BF has some software bug which could be abused as e.g. this guy tried to do:
http://www.freelancer.sg/projects/PHP-C-Programming/betfair-play-delay-overpass.2644685.html
In any case I hold Betfair fully responsible as they obviously allow unethical but profitable practices.
At BF the default refresh is five seconds I believe, so I would surely be able to see the bet matched before suspend, regardless of live delay, leaving me wondering who would be so crazy to match so unfavorable odds.
Instead, it looks much more indeed like hoovering, but still with hard to believe timing possibilites.
Unless BF has some software bug which could be abused as e.g. this guy tried to do:
http://www.freelancer.sg/projects/PHP-C-Programming/betfair-play-delay-overpass.2644685.html
In any case I hold Betfair fully responsible as they obviously allow unethical but profitable practices.
"At the moment watching Stoke-MU. There is no a second delay on three different satellite channels"
Are you seriously trying to tells us there is less than a second delay between the match and what's on your tv? On a digitally compressed satellite channel?
How are you coming up with this "figure", are you at the match with a satellite dish? Or comparing the channels? And if so, do you not realise what you are doing so very wrong?
Are you seriously trying to tells us there is less than a second delay between the match and what's on your tv? On a digitally compressed satellite channel?
How are you coming up with this "figure", are you at the match with a satellite dish? Or comparing the channels? And if so, do you not realise what you are doing so very wrong?
- The point above is possible difference among several channels, not the delay in satellite broadcasting/decoding which equals to three to four seconds at most.
- Suspend delay is easy to check with internet enable mobile/notebook directly on playing ground.
- Also, the main point is being able to see the bet matched before the suspend, regardless of any delay.
- Suspend delay is easy to check with internet enable mobile/notebook directly on playing ground.
- Also, the main point is being able to see the bet matched before the suspend, regardless of any delay.
A fool and his money are easily shafted.
Sure, if the fool allows to be dragged in such situation.
So, what you're saying is that the Betfair's in-play system is falacious by design?
also don't you realise you're watching man city?
Thanks for the constructive contribution. I guess the "also" remark adds up to the "fool" note.
you can"waltz" around the issue as much as you like.
it's patently obvious. if people are managing to get matched after something significant has happened the delay is innadequate.
which means the that a "managed" market is not being managed properly.
it's patently obvious. if people are managing to get matched after something significant has happened the delay is innadequate.
which means the that a "managed" market is not being managed properly.
bihonline:
your bet didn't get matched during the suspend. that just doesn't happen.
you got hoovered just before the suspend.
your bet didn't get matched during the suspend. that just doesn't happen.
you got hoovered just before the suspend.
The suspend delay needs to be
Accurate knowledge of delay from event to person operating suspend button + human reaction time + some safety margin. That's it.
It doesnt matter one jot what delay all the various punters in the world are getting, that's completely and utterly irrelevant, what matters is the above.
Accurate knowledge of delay from event to person operating suspend button + human reaction time + some safety margin. That's it.
It doesnt matter one jot what delay all the various punters in the world are getting, that's completely and utterly irrelevant, what matters is the above.
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