so the price for increased liquidity on the in play market is the facility for people to cheat?

at the moment? yes and no.

lengthening the delay makes IP betting less attractive. but letting people get hoovered deters people from putting up offers in play.

investor's posted some decent stuff about this.

it seems to me that bf have got a few customers, who've managed to aquire an edge [have they got people at the match with a phone connection to somebody over here?] that is costing their genuine customers money.

they could easily negate that edge by increasing the delay, or come up with a system that dosen't facilitate the cheats.

lengthen the delay.

well, you said "or come up with a system", and that's not an or.

lengthening the delay is the answer they've come up with, but a lot of people already complain it's too long.

the only other alternatives I can see are voiding bets that look like hoovering, or just leaving football markets unmanaged. they tried the latter and it just doesn't work.

yeah, faster feeds would help, but they've pushed for it and presumably aren't going to get anything better than they've got by now.

plus, apparently their suspends are essentially third party anyway.

and people are trading in these markets?

i know increased liquidity is the  aim here, but if the price of it is for some on here to mug off others, well that price is too high.

well, the first thing absolutely required for liquidity is In Play market makers. so if they don't feel confident that they're at least sufficiently protected from hoovering to make a reliable profit markets die.

the second thing that's required is people willing to match the prices they see. so if the length of delay puts them off, liquidity also dies.

so, it's hard.

not really.

1 I've virtually never taken out multiple ticks on an IP trade.
2 I mostly put up prices rather than take them.
3 I use analogue radio commentary to protect myself. if reception's dodgy on the spanish and i can't hear what's happening, I just don't get involved. it's not safe.

no, because I don't use radio to try and beat the suspend, but to cancel offers. which is why I've pretty much 100% managed to avoid being hoovered.

you seem to be determinedly obtuse tonight, mexicano.

because they're trying to beat the suspend, which is cheating, and I'm not.

mexicano in argument shocker...

okay, now you're just being wilfully dim.

bf need to lengthen their suspend periods or improve their own communications. i bet you the bookies dont let themselves get hoovered so why does bf think its ok to allow their layers to be.
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basically bf are allowing their layers to be hoovered because it's more profitable for them that way.

everybody knows the answer.

the "straight" players want it.

but those who are getting match information a bit quicker don't.

what they want is the people who are getting the info quicker than them taken out of the game.

if there are hooverers with v fast feeds/info, they are more than likely paying max premium charge and therefore bf make more money if the bet is matched and the hooverer wins. BF are under serious pressure to increase revenues as the stock price has dived and investors are furious, hence the premium charge.

Basketball/tennis don't have suspends because one score doesn't change the outcome of the game/odds that much (like a goal in soccer) or if it is match point or a score in the last seconds of the game, you know the next score is coming one way or the other. People still trade in play without suspensions in high scoring sports. Without suspensions in football only those with the fastest feeds would risk trading in-play but nobody else. You need the fast guys to market make and the slower normal punters to market take to make a fluid market. Have a look at the liquidity in the unmanaged markets, abysmal.

It seems to me to be a problem with the speed of feeds coming from Spain only. Are the Spanish slowing down these feeds in order to hoover? Given the amount of money that can be made I would not be at all surprised.It doesn't seem to happen very much in other countries.
BF should be able to find out the exact second a goal is scored and then check for bets placed at that time looking for odds way above/below the then market price. It should be easy to identify hooverers from this but if they are paying more commission, there may be no incentive to reverse the bets as it will cost bf commission, there may be revenue targets that have to be met.

If you use AGT or trading software, then on the ladder you should be able to see bets cancel (large chunks of queued money disappearing at the same time, these large chunks usually belong to the guys with the fastest info) just before a goal. If you follow the money and cancel when you see the money disappear then you can avoid hoovering. No matter how fast a feed is, it will always take 8-9 secs longer to place the hoover bet than it will to cancel the queued money and once you see it disappear you should be able to beat hoovering by 6-7 secs at least. You can cancel instantly. It is much easier to see the money disappear in tennis or basketball, as scores happen way more often. The big chunks of money belong to the fast guys, they can risk huge sums because they have an edge over others in the market.

But this is not a satisfactory way of avoiding it, obviously. BF should be protecting us all by reversing suspect bets and suspending their accounts.

At the moment watching Stoke-MU. There is no a second delay on three different satellite channels and it is hard to believe that Spanish broadcastings could have such huge delays.

At BF the default refresh is five seconds I believe, so I would surely be able to see the bet matched before suspend, regardless of live delay, leaving me wondering who would be so crazy to match so unfavorable odds.
Instead, it looks much more indeed like hoovering, but still with hard to believe timing possibilites.
Unless BF has some software bug which could be abused as e.g. this guy tried to do:
http://www.freelancer.sg/projects/PHP-C-Programming/betfair-play-delay-overpass.2644685.html

In any case I hold Betfair fully responsible as they obviously allow unethical but profitable practices.

A fool and his money are easily shafted.

also don't you realise you're watching man city?

bihonline:

your bet didn't get matched during the suspend. that just doesn't happen.

you got hoovered just before the suspend.