We could go round in circles with this one, but for me Messi just hasn't proved himself, he has to do something in the World Cup and not only because I think it is the ultimate platform for football. I want to see him do it when he is not playing for his virtually unbeatable club side.


Very few players in history have been, almost, universally classed as the greatest stand out player in the greatest team. Players come and go but to be classed as the greatest and maintain, and even improve, that level is an amazing achievement in itself. People saying it's easy for Messi because he plays in a great team are well wide of the mark, the pressure on him should be enormous but week in week out year in year out he consistently improves and raises the bar for any wannabes. He's the greatest ever, in my opinion, because of his consistency. He doesn't consistently play at a great level he consistently improves and continues to do things a few others would like to do once on a football pitch.
Maradona states himself, after his couple of seasons at Barcelona, that the pressure of playing for the team was immense in itself and he couldn't deal with the constant pressure of expectancy and ended up hating the place yet Messi just seems to take it in his stride and continues to break and set records. Detractors say he has to win the world cup but I'd say other players who consistently vote him the best and a few world player of the year awards mean more.
Messi also replaced the player many, at that time, said was virtually irreplaceable in Ronaldinho but he effortlessly stepped into his boots and surpassed his achievements.

Highlander:

We could go round in circles with this one, but for me Messi just hasn't proved himself, he has to do something in the World Cup and not only because I think it is the ultimate platform for football. I want to see him do it when he is not playing for his virtually unbeatable club side.

You don't hold Pele to the same standards though -- Pele played in a "virtually unbeatable" Brazil team - -they showed this when they won the World Cup without him in 1962. And Santos, were apparently, the best (or, one of the best) club side(s) in the world at that time.

I'll just reverse what you said earlier and say: If Messi played for Brazil in their golden age, he'd have outscored Pele -- who didn't even score as many World Cup goals as Klose has for Germany, despite playing in the strongest World Cup sides that there has ever been.

Of course, I can't prove that and it's probably nonsensical, but common sense doesn't seem to apply when it comes to the rose-tinted revisionism of the careers of footballers past.

"You don't hold Pele to the same standards though -- Pele played in a "virtually unbeatable" Brazil team - -they showed this when they won the World Cup without him in 1962. And Santos, were apparently, the best (or, one of the best) club side(s) in the world at that time."

I notice that Pele's detractors want it both ways, apparently Santos were one of the best club sides in the whole world, meanwhile the Brazilian league was apparently the same standard as amateur football. So which one is it again, best side in the world or Pele scored against a bunch of part-time amateurs? Sorry I keep losing track...

I judge both players with their individual performances against top class opposition. We all know Pele did it 100% against any team any time. But we cannot say the same about Messi, he has been found wanting at international level and especially in World Cups. If he cannot do it for Argentina then his limitations have been exposed. He is young enough to change that, but he really does need to do it now, at the next World Cup, in the qualifiers against the better sides. If he doesn't then he is not the player you all think he is.

Football is still a team game as far as I can tell.

PELE IS A DFC. How childish. WC is a lot harder to win for a start. Go and do another ad.

"I notice that Pele's detractors want it both ways, apparently Santos were one of the best club sides in the whole world, meanwhile the Brazilian league was apparently the same standard as amateur football. So which one is it again, best side in the world or Pele scored against a bunch of part-time amateurs? Sorry I keep losing track"





You appear to be somewhat confused so i will help you. Santos were a great team playing in a local state league with many amateur sides. Brazil didn't even have a national league until the last 2-3 years of Pele's career. This is basically the equivalent of Barca playing against Spanish 4th division sides most weeks with the odd 'big' game against Espanyol thrown in.

Messi is average with an average Argentina team, whose game has been totally destroyed by Maradona as coach, and great with a great Barcelona team, which he fits perfectly in. Pelé in this Argentina team would have not won a World Cup. There is no way to prove it anyway. But i know collective organisation always win against individual talent in football.

logic, where? all i see is you saying that messi doesnt play well for argentina 50 comments in a row, how many of these games have you seen? you werent aware that argentina had a terrible defence? well then your argument is even more flawed, your argument isnt that messi plays bad for argentina as you dont watch the games, your argument is that argentina arent winning everything with the greatest player in the world in there team so it must be his fault, if argentina won every game and messi played the same way you would be none the wiser and yet your argument would cease to exist, did pele score every goal for brazil? make every crucial tackle? every goal line clearance? if me calling you a fool has led you to believe that you are "winning" this imaginary argument you have created then theres no need for you to continue is there as you are the only one thats actually arguing from that point of view over an extended period of time not one person has agreed with you, so maybe you should take your one sentence argument which isnt even what your arguing about elsewhere.

If Messi was Spanish we wouldn't be having this debate.

Messi is a good player but like Ronaldo he is a flat track bully. Can't compare him to someone like Maradonna who virtually won a world cup single handed and then took a very average Argentinian side to another final. Napoli won their first title in eons with him. Messi almost invisible in the last world cup.  Its simple really; the true greats do it on the world stage.  The close but no cigar don't. End of.

How many games a season on average do you think Messi has played in the last 6 years?

After scoring 12 goals in the 2010–11 Champions League, Messi became only the third player (after Gerd Müller and Jean-Pierre Papin) to top-score in three successive European Champion Clubs' Cup campaigns. However, Messi is the first one to win the Champions League top scorer titles for three consecutive years after the Champions League changed its format in 1992. Messi is the fourth football player to win three Ballons d'Or, after Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini and Marco van Basten and the second player to win three consecutive Ballons d'Or, after Michel Platini.
He's even won an Olympic gold medal with Argentina, he's the youngest ever player to represent Argentina in a world cup and despite everyone saying he's no good for Argentina he's still scored 22 goals in 67 games at the age of 24. Presuming he wins another Ballon d'Or he'll stand alone as the greatest player yet people still say he's not the best despite players past and present stating he's the greatest player ever!

64-year-old Dutchman, Johan Cruyff, is in awe of the Argentine's qualities after he broke another record and believes that Barca are still in the race for the Primera Division title.
"He, Messi, is a phenomenal player undoubtedly the best ever and, for football, Messi is a gem because he is a role model for every child in the world,"


When world class players in their own rights recognise this there must be something in it

Biscuit, come on now, what impact did he make in those World Cups? I will tell you...None! He played quite well blah blah blah get real you muppet He needs to do a helluva lot better than that if he wants to compare to Pele and Maradona!

Did Pele play quite well in the World Cup final when he chested that ball, chipped the defender, volleyed into the net? Did Maradona play quite well when he took on the whole Belgian and English teams and beat them pretty much single handed?

I'm actually embarrassed on your behalf that you tried to praise Messi for his insipid World Cup performances.

Pele must be the most arrogant player of all time  -  why does he feel the need to chip in with comments about Messi ?

Cruyff doesn't ,Zidane doesn't ,Cantona doesn't ,Van Basten doesn't, Van Percy doesn't .


What's so special about Pele that he feels the need to make judgement ?

Pele has never said a nice thing about any argentina player

He lives of the fact that he thinks he is the best ever, He will never accept messi is the better player because he is argentinian

ibodyslamrhinos 23 Mar 12 17:23 
Pele has never said a nice thing about any argentina player

He lives of the fact that he thinks he is the best ever, He will never accept messi is the better player because he is argentinian




Spot on. It was only a few months ago that he said Neymar was better than Messi

Cantona does makes regularly negative comments on France team
_____________

Understandable 

"As for the CL being the best competition, I really doubt that! If it so good, why do CL sides often get beat by the Copa Libetadores winners in the World Club Cup? In fact 3 Brazilian sides have won it, not bad for such a rubbish amateur league Laugh

The World Cup is still the highest quality tournament in the world of football imo"





You're struggling now.

The last FIVE winners of the world club cup were all European sides. And in case you hadn't noticed i was referring to the Brazilian league being full of rubbish amateur sides back when Pele was playing. It didn't become a fully professional national league until his career was nearly over.

And as for the world cup being the highest quality tournament, you've disproved that yourself by saying the 'last world cup was awful'. Oh well it was rubbish, never mind, only FOUR years until the next one

Simple question for the likes of highlander -

Do you consider Roger Milla to be a better striker than Marco Van Basten due to their differing World Cup performances?

Anyone who wants to see the impact Maradona had in 1986 it is quite simple - go and watch the full games on youtube.

It dispels a few myths -
'Maradona won it single handed'
He didnt, he was part of a very solid Argentina side that had arguably the best defence in the tournament and quality attacking players like Burrachaga and Valdano.
An example of this is Argentina being the better side against Germany in the final despite Maradona having a poor game.

'Maradona got kicked to ribbons'
Watch these games and you will realise that is far from the case and arguably he is over protected by the referees who largely give him a foul any time he is touched.
This probably is a reaction to a few of the games he was kicked out of in 1982.

He was clearly their best player and had a phenomenal tournament but he didnt do it all on his own. He relied on his team mates.