England- State of the National Team

were not as good as we think we are, were a good average team at best.

I agree with scoobykid, I'd compare us to Sunderland or Birmingham level in the Premiership relative to world football.

I like the fact the Media are jumping on the Bandwagon of that theres no English players being given a chance in the Premier League and it hasnt been this bad....really anyone remember how many English were in the Liverpool team of the 80's/90's.

Main problem I think is that noe of the players are utilised to their strengths, we're not as technical as Spain so we wouldnt beat them this way, Lampard cant play like Xavi and Vice Versa . Play to all our players strengths and we would actually have a chance!!

THE ingerlish can only play high tempo football,which they are the best at,but when you try and play the slow,slow,quick game like spain you look like cart horses

England are like the school kid that was picked third-last by the 'captains' because he had the turning circle of a washing machine. Is it English bones that hinder us? All our players are liable to pick up an injury, and there'll never be a silky-skilled English version of Messi/Ronaldo.

Gents

One thing I think is an interesting point is this age old argument abount too many foreigners in the domestic leagues.

Is this really a problem, there are vast amounts in the Italian, German, French and Spanish leagues also.

Perhaps it is more important that ALL of our players are based in this country.  If you look at the successful team they have players playing all over Europe, so they have a wealth of knowledge and experience of different global styles of football.

It is certainly a point worth considering, given that Spain, Holland, Germany and Argentina (who it would be fair to say were the stars of the tournament) all have a mixed base of players both at home and across Europe.

Ta

They have never been any good. Just the press , media , SKY etc bigging them up all the time.  The premiership is sub standard kick and rush nonsense. When you get a decent passing team in there like Arsenal the answer is to kick lumps out of them , not outplay them.

The only way it will improve is if players moved abroad and tested themselves in other leagues. They wont , they are too lazy and as long as they get their fat salaries they will continue to be humiliated at the top level.

No amount of manager changes or tactics for the England team can disguise the fact that they cant do anything with a football other than the basics.

Because according to the press , previous exits from tournaments were either
on pens ("unlucky england")
due to "cheating argies prevented us from winning"
indivdual errors "seaman too old" or "rooney lost his head"  - ie we basically had an excuse.

This time , an abject group phase followed with Germany destroying us so thoroughly that there was no excuse left & people have started to think that maybe we are a good team but never a tournament winning one...

Just go watch how the kids are trained in the park or even at 5 a-side.
I have yet to see an english "coach" teach these kids to retain posession. It is all about hoofing the ball in a panic and chasing after it.
If you don't start teaching confidence on the ball, with quick passing at a young age at school, we'll never create any technically decent players

oh and should some poor defender lose the ball in posession, the coach would freak out. That is not the way to teach proper football. That is a way to teach "it is better not to concede than create" football

Look at the English Players as individals and you wouldnt swap alot of players in our starting line up for any other player in the other teams.

Capello simply has to say im playing this system and this is who fits in. Thats why we should have got Mourinho in my opinion as he makes it work to a system he has in mind, and the players picked fit into his system and everyone knows what there job is.

The prem is not sub standard by a long shot Champions League is Proof of that with the amount if times England have had representatives in the last 4 etc.

Ask yourself this ? How many English Goalies will start on EPL opening day, how many quality left footers, how many quality Strikers, how many Gazza style midfielders. Answer: Not very many to many Foreigners taking the places and denying English Talent. Suggest the top clubs have B teams that must contain 9 English Players and let them start in the conference and see were it leads. At least when our kids youth football finishes this would give them the oppurtunity to progress.

Look at the English Players as individals and you wouldnt swap alot of players in our starting line up for any other player in the other teams.

too fkin right I would.

players like lahm, messi, ronaldo, carvalho,vidic, xavi, iniesta, fabregas, schweinsteiger the list goes on and on. Personally I find it difficult to choose one England player I would keep

The Magic Flea- Who would you swap/ excluding Spain

English Kids arent being denied because they are on the same level, they are being denied because they arent as good as the other players in their team. If there not good enough for the prem then they should go to Germany/Italy/Spain.

Most of it comes down to the coaching. This is something that needs to be looked at....Why are the best coaches training professionals ( who are the ones that lead the least instruction) and anyone from down the pub can get an FA level 1 qualification and teach kids "how to play" football.

any other keeper
lahm as right back
vidic instead of terry
scweinsteiger as holding mid-fielder with a great eye for attacking play
either ronaldo or robben as a right winger with a free role. Robben would be better as he can cover for lahm as he runs forward.
Messi can play a free role wherever he pleases.
then there are so many more strikers I would choose before heskey, defoe or crouch.
Rooney could be useful in a team like this so I'd keep him.
I guess i would also use ashley cole although I really don't like him much as a character.

so there you have it

I would keep ashley cole and rooney (but only because the team is good enough to support him)

English kids are NOT getting an oppurtunity. Jack Wiltshire at Arsenal would be a regular starter if it were not for all the foreigners at Arsenal. EPL clubs are chasing the TV money and buying ready made foreiners at great cost. Our players finish youth football and are then denied the oppurtunity to progress. Harte at City will not be first choice how can he improve and progress if not given the oppurtunity.He sould be Englands No1 but will Capello pick him if he is not playing ?

Who's Better than Lamps and Gerrard,

Vidic will disagree as Top class players (Torres) no how to get the better of him, so 5/6 players would stay in the England team if you could choose players from anyother team in the world.

Thats a good Nucleus of players to have, but we havnt built around that in my opinion

lampard and gerrard are good for their teams because they fit the role of two entirely different teams. They cannot play together. I would choose neither as they are both extremely one dimensional, which can work for a league team, not for a national team.
only 2 would stay

HICKS
ther are plenty of cups and dead rubber games that these players can be used in.
but as you see with man utds youngsters, these kids are rather sh1t.

"Look at the English Players as individals and you wouldnt swap alot of players in our starting line up for any other player in the other teams."

You have got to be joking ??

I will take a wild guess and say that you are under 30 and have known nothing other than premiership football. Dont take this the wrong way but your comment is exactly whats wrong with English football - you are under the delusion that the players are actually any good.  Its all the players around them in the premierhip that bail them out.  Rooney is not world class but gets a hatful of chances in the Man U team , he would not last 5 minutes abroad as he doesnt have the technical skills to cope. Everytime he his asked to step up in internationals he is found out - and lets be honest he is probably the only player England could claim as remotely top class.

I totally agree with TMF - the "when in doubt hit row Z" approach is a waste of time and as long as thats at the grass roots of English football there is no hope.

Wallis You are absoulutely right, I also predicted Rooney would get caught out at the WC. Most of his goals for Man u are set up by foreign talent hes a workhorse at best. Most English players are made to look better than they are by the foreign talent around them. England will not win a major tournament while the EPl is full of foreign talent. GIVE ENGLISH PLAYERS AN OPPURTUNITY

Agree with Grubbert

''Perhaps it is more important that ALL of our players are based in this country.  If you look at the successful team they have players playing all over Europe, so they have a wealth of knowledge and experience of different global styles of football.''

In what other country in the world would a journeyman, hard man, ex Birmingham City player like Noel Blake be in charge of the country's elite under 19's ?

Wallis The only part you got correct is that im under 30. On the flip side you 2 are whats wrong with English Football. You have the exact same dillusion as the managers in charge of clubs in that you get all histerical over a foreign player with a fancy name and automatically think he is better than what we have.


We do have some of the best players in their position in the world including Rooney, only problem in my opinion is that we have yet to find a coach/system which plays to the strengths of what we have.


The EPL is a worldwide brand/business and like any other business the clubs will look for the best employees from around the world. Just because you are born in England it doesnt mean you get first dibs or special treatment to play for a club, if the players the EPL academys are creating arent good enough then they need to start looking at what they are teaching these kids from a young age.

too many big kids coming through the school ranks

wallis Joined: 04 Jan 03
Replies: 452 28 Jul 10 15:23 
They have never been any good. Just the press , media , SKY etc bigging them up all the time.  The premiership is sub standard kick and rush nonsense. When you get a decent passing team in there like Arsenal the answer is to kick lumps out of them , not outplay them.

The only way it will improve is if players moved abroad and tested themselves in other leagues. They wont , they are too lazy and as long as they get their fat salaries they will continue to be humiliated at the top level.

No amount of manager changes or tactics for the England team can disguise the fact that they cant do anything with a football other than the basics.
...........................................


POST OF THE DAY.

dontbedumb Joined: 28 Jul 10
Replies: 10 28 Jul 10 15:57 
Who's Better than Lamps and Gerrard,
.............................................

Answer: dontbedumb.


OK, I'm Scottish so you can slag if you want, but the sooner all of you English see the sense in what people like wallis say, the sooner you might make some progress. Insistence that "we have some of the best players in the world" etc etc is arrant rubbish and IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. You have to start from scratch.

Gents

I'd be interested to hear some views on English progress in the Champions League.  Wallis what do you think about this, is it that we drag foreign teams down to our level?
For me the the fact we often have teams in the semis and final masks the fact that our approach from roots upward needs revision.  It is too easy for the powers that be to use this as justification of how things are done in this country.

Great discussion, some bullet points from me:

- FA do not do enough to educate coaches at 'grassroot' level.
- FA do not have enough / any influence to impact coaching and scouting policies in Academy and   Centre of Excellences for 8-17 year olds.
- Win instantly mentality in PL reflects crazy spending on foreign players.
- PL clubs have too much influence and power. FA needs to take a tougher line, show strong vision and better leadership.
- FA make very poor decisions and do not set examples for the way we need football to be in England.  Influx of highly paid foreign people into the PL and the FA follow suit by hiring a highly paid foreinger to run the national team.

So much wrong it will take more than a few bullet points and paragraphs to explain.

GL with bets.

Start a revolution!!

--Starting with what we have at the moment, what needs to happen to the team to win the euros in 2012

-- What young players should be given a chance

--What do we need to do so our young players cut the grade at the top level?

Another risible observation by grubbert, who has obviously forgotten that the Italy team which won the 2006 World Cup did not contain one single player operating outside Serie A, and that the Spain team which has won the two major championships since has contained only Torres who plays outside the Primera Liga.

I'd agree with most of what Bet of the Decade said, other than this:

"Win instantly mentality in PL reflects crazy spending on foreign players"

The crazy spending generally takes place on ludicrously overpriced English players, meaning any club with a brain buys foreign players as they are generally of better quality and at a far more reasonable price!

For as long as I remember, England have gone into tournaments ranked around 7-10 in the world.  Then we're surprised/shocked when we don't get past the QF's.  Clive Woodward recognised this when in charge of the England rugby team, and spent 6 years building the team towards no.1 status so that by the time we got to the 2003 rugby world cup, it was expected by the whole squad that nothing other than winning the trophy would be good enough.

OK, so it's a different sport.  But how about football taking ALL matches seriously.  No "friendlies" which are treated by contempt by the clubs and management.  Instead, call them Test matches whereby you put in your strongest possible team every time, and create a culture of winning regardless of the opposition.  Can you imagine the All Blacks taking an international match and treating it the same way the England football do, with multiple substitions, and a string of second tier players.  Look at Spain's 40+ winning streak, and tell me they didn't expect to win that tournament.

If PL managers withhold players, or the players drop out due to mystery injuries which miraculously clear up for the following weekend's PL fixtures, then they are out.  Period.  Fck off for good if you don't want to play for your country.

Not the complete solution, but it's a start.

We do have the players, we just keep getting terrible managers foisted on us by the FA, and then those same managers are given contracts which would cost too much to break, so we are saddled with them again when they are clearly not up to the job.

For instance in this World Cup, our manager thought Robert Green was a better goalkeeper than David James, which cost us dearly.

He thought, despite the mountain of evidence provided by their 150 combined caps, that Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard were International footballers, when they are not. And, most damningly of all, he thought Emile Heskey and Gareth Barry should be playing for England, when they absolutely definitely should not.

Blame the manager......how original.........How many managers have been wrong over the years....is it just bad luck the wrong manager keeps being appointed.............biggest cash cow in soccer management and a media to built you up for a fall.

Square pegs in round holes, meaning the squandering of oppertunities for the last 10 years by managers accomodating Gerrard and Lampard in the same side.

Insistence that 'Player  X' is of over-arching value to the side and has to be accomodated no matter what the affect on the team is (see above but also Heskey having to be selected on the risible basis 'he brings the best out in Rooney - I mean who exactly the fk picks the team?)

We are not as good as the (uncritcal, at least beforehand) press think we are.


....for starters....

Of course the buck stops at the FA, who are nothing more than a complete bunch of clowns. The entire board should be kicked out and get some people in who know what they are doing....but that won't happen because the people in there now are on mega money, and accountable to no-one, so the chance of them all resigning are about the same as San Marino winning the 2012 European Championships...

I'm afraid that when the team malfunctions to the extent that we did in this World Cup, is clearly riven by internecine factionalism, and contains at least five players who should be on holiday, then it is the manager, and those who employ him, who are to blame.

You can talk all you like about the coaching of young footballers, the prominence of foreign players in our major clubs, the ridiculous salaries, the idolatrous and lickspittle media, but if the man in charge does not know what he is doing, a football team can not succeed.

So you are saying put new people in charge........get a new manager and all will be ok.
The FA people don't tog out......It's the same old same old 1966 syndrome.

There are two major issues - the current manager is a mug, and the whole national football philosophy is worthless.

There is no way of making us a World power without addressing both issues, but make no mistake, we do have the players.

Perhaps I could ask you which other major footballing nation would have seen its team stink out a tournament in the ignominious way we stunk out South Africa 2010, and not sack the manager as soon as he stepped off the plane home?

It is repugnant that Capello should still have the job.

We didn't sack him because we couldn't afford to.

I refer to my previous point about the clowns at the FA who gave him a huge contract on vast sums of money before he had achieved anything other than cruise through a p1ss easy qualifying group.

Who will be held accountable for this decision?

No-one. That is the problem.

By the time the next world cup comes around there will sh ag all english players playing in the top prem teams..

if you play high tempo football against good organised defenders you will in evitably get picked off.

The FA are clueless Hoddle should still be manager ,not picking Brian Clough as manager sums them up .
Noel Blake coaches the u/19s FFS ,you reckon they will be playing posession football  ? .