SCOUSERS AND MANCS

My lack of knowledge at Championship level betrays me ... don't know enough about Bogdanovic, but not a fan of Henderson and Evans, together at least. On the brief occasions I've seen Ward (and he is too small) I like him.
Not sure about Nosworthy either apart from his physical presence, but again I might be judging him at a different level. I know nothing about Britton or Yeates, but Quinn is a player (albeit again too small).
Not tempting just yet, but I like the options up front (Blackwell notwithstanding) and given what you've said about the midfield I will have a look tomorrow, cheers.

It turns out MMFP provided some good insight on this thread.  The Championship really is up for grabs with a number of teams in with a realistic chance of promotion.  I think the way to go is to look at the longer odds.  No way Boro should be favourites but i guess someone has to be.

Yes. It has turned out to be a good read after the initial mud slinging.

I certainly dont dine at the pro-punters table but I couldn't back Liverpool at 33/1 nevermind 16's. I've always felt their squad was just above average and their run to finish 2nd in the league two seasons ago was not only in part down to certain players being at their peak (Gerrard), but also the likes of Wenger sending out his worst PL side to date (partly due to the move to the Emirates) and also because Chelsea could not decide who they wanted Managing their club. It was a manager merry-go-round when Jose left.

Arsenal are two players away from winning the league. Get a decent GK and another defensive midfielder in the mould of Melo and our attack will flourish, big time.

The reality of it happening though ..

Mick to apologise for useless drunken thread (nap)

There will be no apology, Leo. Perhaps you'd like to contribute to the football debate that's now occurring on the thread? I know that's a novel concept for most people here these days. Which league would you like to discuss this morning?

There's been nothing (as far as I know) on the Wolves front regarding transfers, you think they will keep up on what they've got?

Have you read the thread, Leo?  No, thought not.

Good morning Mick, good morning all.

Not looked at League one yet.  Any thoughts?

Good morning, cgull. No, Leo clearly hasn't read the thread. Why would you want to contribute to something you haven't been bothered to read?

Good morning VS. I trust you are well. I enjoy coming back here to discuss football. Let's see how long I last before I'm banned this time.

League One, Davey. Yes. Let's start an early argument with the cgullman by telling him that Brighton are far too short and their price is based solely on bookmakers' fear of their owner.

Good morning cgull/Mick.

Tbh, I’ve not got time to trawl through a whole nights ramblings from 7 men and their dog.

I also would not have the desire to stay up all night participating in such a debate, believe it to be a pointless exercise and it says a lot about someone that they choose to spend their nights in this manner.

That is my opinion, which is my prerogative, as is yours to spend all night locked in discussion.

Southampton are obvious contenders but at 2/1 no thanks.  Notts County at 32 may be worth a dabble but i am unsure of their transfer activity.  Any info on Notts Mick or VS?

I could reiterate that I wipe my ass with the opinions of people on this forum, but I shall not. I shall instead agree that your opinion is indeed your perogative. However, if you can find five minutes to read through just my posts on this thread then  think you'll learn some things and may even change your mind about it being a "pointless exercise", not that I'd expect you to admit it, you seem a bit too proud for that.

So one more time, I invite you to join the football conversation/debate that will be held here. If you feel unwilling/unable to do so please take yourself off to any one of the countless other threads being started that will be more to your tastes.

I am not sure how you can evaluate a thread's worth if you haven't read it tbh.  That isn't an opinion, it's a no brainer isn't it.

Mick, I will knock that half volley back in while, I have things I must do first.

Davey - in each of the other divisions I can (and have) put up some big priced alternatives to the big guns. But League One, for me, is the league where the big players will dominate. Southampton absolutely have to be there or thereabouts (if Lambert stays fit he wins the golden boot with his c*ck out). Sheff Weds are a massive player, Tudgay being joined up front by Clinton Morrison who still has goals in him, especially now he's dropping a level. Irvine is a very good manager too, so i expect them to be in the thick of it. Huddersfield and Peterborough are also giving off all the right noises, Posh have kept the nucleus of their squad together and made a great managerial appointment in Gary Johnson, whilst Huddersfield show continual improvement and are going to be in and around the top six again. Of last year's top six I can see Charlton and Swindon regressing. Charlton have lost Nicky Bailey, their playmaker, as well as Jonjo Shelvey to Liverpool and the reduction in creativity that they'll inevitably suffer as a result of Bailey's departure, together with doubts over their striking options, make me concerned that goals will be harder to coem by this season. Swindon meanwhile overachieved last season, I was never overly taken by what I saw from them and Paynter has gone now. Charlie Austin looks a real find, he reminds me of Kevin Phillips when he first went to Watford - young, wet behind the ears, small goal poacher, playing on the shoulder of the last defender and preying on mistakes, coming in from a lowly non-league side just as Phillips did. But it wouldn't be a surprise to see him move on before the window closes too (if Cardiff are forced to let Chopra go to Ipswich die to their financial situation, I'd not be at all surprised to see them get Austin in as his replacement).

I think when you start to attribute value, or begin to appraise a thread 's worth then I would consider that I was spending too much time on here. However, this again is my opinion, I probably just don't take it all as seriously as you.

Mick, I will respectfully decline your invitation. Speak soon.

Morning Mick,

Just wondering is your aim to get an overall green book through a combination of here & the high st or are you looking for value bets for the season taking a stronger opinion on the outcome & letting things ride?

Dave - I'm not someone that is obsessed by green books. I'm obsessed with betting at value prices. Your long term P/L takes care of itself as long as you're getting on at the right prices. The only thing that would cause me to trade out of an ante post bet, or any bet for that matter, is if at some point I believe the price has got shorter than I make it to 100%. At that point, by laying I'm having a second value bet in the same market. The more value bets you have, you more money you make.

I really want to bring myself to the conclusion Liverpool are value. Obviously. But agree with Sint. I agree that the season we finished 2nd we were massively flattered. And we have lost who I perceive to be our most important player from that side, and is replacement is clearly not cutting it.

I think Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City and Everton are all much better sides than they were then. Whilst keeping Torres would be a huge filip for this season, I still dont think our squad is good enough. Aquilani has not only not been cutting it, but still getting injured at even the faintest suggestion of a tackle. I just cant see him having a strong season.

I want to keep Torres as I dont believe we will be given the money we get for him to buy a replacement should he go, and the chances of finding someone of his ability if that does transpire are also slim. But if he does stay, we will probably get 25 games tops out of him. And for those other games we have no decent alternatives. I do think we will do much better than last season and getting back in the CL is very realistic. I also think us being roughly 3 times the price of Man City is laughable and am keenly awaiting the match bet prices, as I intend to have a good few quid on us beating them. But we simply cant win the league. 3rd is the best we can hope for imo.

Leo, you said the thread was useless but you hadn't read it.  That's all I am saying.  You were moaning about the state of the forum yourself just the other day.  It's a good thread, most are a waste of time.

I think the concept of finding the value & the winners will take care of themselves is an interesting concept, but only up to a point. Have to admit that I don't look at the lower league football due to other commitments so it's only Prem for me.

I was interested by your thoughts of Liverpool being a value bet at around 16/1. As you say it all down to opinions, but I'm struggling with this one. Roy Hodgson I rate and he may be able to shake things up somewhat, but the problems at the club run a lot deeper than just the football side. They were floundering last season & lucky that Everton didn't catch them for the last Europa spot. He has got a massive job on his hands turning that around. Too many mediocre players & their best two were definitely not happy.

I could see this possibly a quick hit & run trade if they had easy fixtures early on, but they have Arsenal, Man U, Man City, West Brom & Birmingham as the first five matches. Realistically how many points would they be looking to get from these games? Seven or Eight at best. Their price would probably be longer on here at this point due to the market over reaction as people adjust their book.

If the league was played 16 times under their current set up how many times would they realistically look to win it when competing with Chelsea, City, Utd, Arsenal & Spurs. I can't see it happening once.

At least they have got rid of the tactically inept Benitez, but Hodgson has got a job and a half on his hands there right now.

My opinion then? I can't see past Chelsea as the actual winners right now, but quite obviously there is no value whatsoever to be had there. I think the lack of strenthening squad will catch up with Man U at some point, City need time to gel & could be promising but not at the price. Wenger always puts out a well drilled side, but similar to Man U finance is an issue, albeit Wenger has done some very shrewd business over the years. Spurs, no. Villa, no. Everton, no.

With all due respect david..for factual accuracy...utd have strengthened.

Regards


R0y

Fair points, CCM, I'm just not sure I agree. Everything has a price and the fact that City at 5-1 is takes out around 16% of the book, for a team I'd make nearly double that price means there absolutely has to be some value elsewhere. Given that I don't see that value in Chelsea or United's prices for various reasons, for me it has to be lower down the list, and that just leaves Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. Spurs I couldn't go near at the price. You claim Liverpool overachieved when they finished 2nd, I believe Spurs overachieved last year. Just my opinion. They're struggling to get their crocked centre backs fit, I am not a big fan of any of Palacios, Jenas or Huddlestone (all good footballers, but title challenging footballers? Not for me). Added to that the first foray into the CL is bound to have an effect on league form. So that is one of the three off my list. Arsenal I'm keeping my nose clean about for the moment. I need to see hard evidence of putting last year's wrongs right before I get excited about them, and they've not shown that yet. That just leaves Liverpool. There are a lot of question marks about Liverpool. But four times the price they were last season? It's gone too far for me. 10-1 would be a fair price.....and I have a feeling that about 10-1 is what they'll be the day the season kicks off when the market wakes up to the fact that they've been written off to a slightly greater extent than they should have been.

Roy, just to clarify, I meant comparatively with other clubs competing for the Prem.

I agree entirely about Spurs. I make Arsenal the value personally. I suppose I do agree 16/1 is a touch high, just look at it in a slightly different fashion to you. As even if we're a shade big, I cant see us winning it so am not inclined to have a go. I also agree with dave that we may not even be a good trade with the fixtures we have.

Fair enough. The Prem title book tends to be one of my smallest books ante post anyway. It's not something I'm mad keen on getting involved in. Shall we move onto Prem relegation? This is a much more interesting market than the winner one imo.

I am currently trying to build up a lay of Man Utd for the top 3 at 1.29 / 1.3. I think the lack of money will catch up with them eventually and Fergie has been over achieving. They were so reliant on Rooney last season, and I just cant see him repeating that again.

I dont think they have done enough to close the gap on Chelsea this season and believe Arsenal have a very good chance of finishing above them. That makes them very short for that final place with Liverpool and City equipped to run them very close.

Re Brighton and Tony Bloom etc.  I understand that bearing in mind who TB is it's only natural that the bookmaking fraternity would err on the side of caution.  They should do however!  Not only is he a shrewd operator he has also ensured that Brighton can exist without fear of financial failure and in the current climate this has to have an effect on the market.  No transfer embargoes, points deductions etc etc.  I have mentioned the ins and outs on the League One Chat thread so I am not going to discuss those ago save to say that Greer could be a huge signing as while the team looked like creating chances last season (especially once Poyet changed the style of play) there seemed something of a cobbled together look to the centre of defence with Adam El-Abd ultimately preferred.  No criticism of him in any way but he lacks height and is more the ball winning defensive midfielder than a centre back and was just doing a job.

They still lack a left sided midfielder and another forward.  Should they be able to rectify this before the start of the season then, again as I said on the other thread, the 14/1 would THEN be a bet.  Until then it isn't.  For  those that are interested in such things Brighton amassed 45 points from the 31 games with Poyet as manager.  Bearing in mind this was not his squad and he has changed the play (and, subsequently the personnel to reflect this) to very much a passing style he has achieved quite a lot in a relatively short space of time.  Crucially, the players have had a pre-season with him and I don't think it's beyond the current squad to improve that 1.5 pts per game to nearer 2 pts per game.   I am sure this is achieveable should they find the two players required.  How close this takes them depends of course whether the division is very competitive this season and that, at this stage, probably depends upon your view of the chances of Southampton.

ago = again

CCM et David...

All I would say is it is very very unlikely utd will suffer the same number of injuries this season. People talk about an over reliance on rooney but the vidic-ferdiand axis is just as important. Despite our defensive woes we still had the best defensive record.

Furthermore we have spent money!!

Ok, carry on. I shall resume my watching brief. My lower league knowledge is minimal at best.

As previously stated I'm not a season long man, but as far as Prem relegation market is concerned there is something jumping out at me.

Lay of Blackburn, currently 7.4. They aren't going down. Big Sam is the past master at working with this type of club. He takes enough points off the lower teams & nicks enough draws from the bigger clubs to ensure mid table safety.

Blackpool & West Brom are probably already relegated & so he only has to finish above one other team. Should achieve this relatively comfortably.

R0y, Ferdinand is a poor example of your point isn't he?  He is out again for another six weeks for starters.

Dave, personally I'm a bit concerned about Blackburn. There are a few rumours flying arounf about Allardyce not being happy at all. He's been given nothing to spend in the transfer market and was close to walking according to a few people. Even with that info I couldn't be a backer, but it's enough to put me off being a layer.

I backed Fulham to go down at 10/1 the day Hodgson left and I'm still happy with this bet at the price. I think there's still 8/1 knocking about and I'd be tempted to have more on. The Jol situation is a huge negative. As it stands they're unlikely to have a manager in before we hit August. Going from the great level of stability brought by Hodgson to no management throughout pre-season is a huge change. Yes, their current playing squad should have too much quality, but as has been shown in previous years, mid table clubs that get off to bad starts, like West Ham last year, stay involved in the battle until the bitter end. It becomes too hard to put the three consecutive wins together that you need to claw your way back into mid table. Fulham have never been strong on the road and start with three consecutive trips to the north west and a home game with Man Utd I believe. With no manager, possibly the keeper walking out and a striker in Zamora that's never had a season like last year before in his life, and possibly never will again, there are enoguh negatives over Fulham to make them a decent speculative investment for me.

Not really..1st off he will do very well to play fewer games than he did last season.

Secondly even assuming he's out for long periods what are the chances of O'shea (who can play anywhere across the back four and is therefore invaluable), Brown, Vidic, Evans, fabio and rafeal all missing as many games as they did last season? 

Add to that this smalling chap and you'd have to say we are considerably stronger there.

Mick, I have to admit to being unaware of any unrest in the Blackburn camp. If that is the case I agree it would be enough for me to not get involved.

Interesting point about Fulham. You'd have thought that the relatively high profile the club enjoyed last season would have ensured they easily found a manager of the quality they were looking for. Possibly all is not well behind the scenes?

Got some homework to do now. Catch you later.

But you mentioned specifically  the Vidic/Ferdinand axis, not the Vidic + another axis?  I agree that United will be unlucky to suffer as many injuries as last season but Ferdinand is up there with Michael Owen as one unlikely to feature in a full season.

At last a thread worth reading MMFP.

Imay be wrong but i think a friend of mine has met you
a few times though a mutually friend call dick for short.

As a said i may be wrong??
Anyhow pleasing read.

If you do think Liverpool are value btw, one bet I have had is Baldfreds 8/1 about us being Top Northwest Club. Looks a big price in a 3 horse race. As I think we all agree, Man City will struggle to gel these players this season, and Man Utd are not the force of old.

Seems a good price to me anyway.

I agree completely with Mick re Fulham fwiw.  I'd be less concerned about Zamora's contribution (assuming he stays) though if his form suffers early on then he could retreat into his shell.  I'd be very concerned about the managerial situation and how they go about improving on last season's away showings without a manager in place.  Also, how will the likes of Murphy and Duff go this season?  They were revitalised last season but was that Hodgson's influence?  Remains to be seen.

Hernandez is a quality signing for United, he's class. Has anyone seen Smalling do anything other than make mistakes and score own goals? He must be better than what I've seen of him to have had Fergie and Wenger fighting over him, they're hardly fools are they. Fabio and Rafael just didn't look ready to me, r0y. I was at Old Trafford for our Carling Cup tie and Michael Kightly made Fabio look a bit of a mug, culminating in Fabio's red card. I agree that you'd expect to get more football out of O'Shea and Brown, which would give the pair of them another season to learn their trade in the cups. United are big contenders, not least because if it develops into a battle between a few sides the experience of their manager counts for so much, but they're no more than fairly priced.

Hi flipflop - It's very possibel that your friend knows me. The name in question does correlate with someone I know, though haven't spoken to for a couple of years now. A nice guy though, I hope I see him at Goodwood at some point this week because I know it's a track he frequents.

Mick sorry to rain on one negative thing after reading lots of good points you've made, but if you can't see that Huddlestone and Palacios playing in the middle is the reason why Tottenham have improved so dramatically you need to give the game up.

CCM, what price would you be looking for in a season long match bet for Liverpool/City?

I'd want bigger than the 2.5 currently available, but would have a bet at 3 if you fancy laying that?

MMFP

This is going back a few years also at a office you have or had
just outside your teams home of football.

I think Fulham will have a poor season but they are very short for relegation now imo. Great if you were on at double figures, but with Blackpool and West Brom looking shoo ins to me, they only need to be better than one other team.

And they could yet get a good Manager in. I never understand the criticism Sven gets, I think his record is very good and he would be a good appointment for them.

Sven gets criticism because he fooks off when things go sour. Agree he's not done much wrong to condone the 'krap' manager tag though.

Not seen enough of Fabio.... Rafael is just raw. He looks like he's going to be a great player for us. That sending off against munich could be huge for his development because he has been a walking car crash at times with his eagerness to win the ball when it cant be won and go to ground when standing up will do the job.

Not seen enough of Hernandez...I read he was clocked as the fastest player at the world cup...how quick is he?? If he makes himself a real option then you're looking at a double benefit because on paper he looks like someone berbatov will also benefit from if rooney needs to be rested or is injured.

Ferdinand might not play every game but you have to believe he and vidic will manage more games this season. Didnt ledley king play more games than ferdinand last season?!

I am more optimistic this time round than I was last season.

Yes zerty. I was talking about his capabilities though.

Sven,

I wont comment on him for fear of derailing this thread. His agent is 1st class i will say that.

Regards

R0y

azerty, there are plenty of reasons for  Spurs improvement (such as it is - remember, of course, that other top four aspirants went backwards last season..)

The emergence of Bale, the improvement in Gomes, the fact that 'arry has finally seen that Robbie Keane should not be an option.  Huddlestone and Palacios are functional types, yes you need that sort if that is how you choose to set up but I think that Mick was commenting on those two as individual footballers rather than as two cogs in a midfield.  For clarity, others could do their jobs.

Huddlestone, to me, is another Carrick.  A player that hasn't delivered but because we know that type of player is en vogue gets plaudits despite themselves.

Before Huddlestone and Palacios were paired in the middle by Harry Kidnap, Spurs midfield was made of paper: Lennon, Jenas, Bentley, Modric. They had no fight in midfield whatsoever, hence why Spurs were renound for having calamity defenders in the mould of Dawson. That was because the defence had no cover from midfield. Palacios and Huddlestone are the sole reason for the team performing so much better.

End of thread.

Sorry, CCM, busy atm.

I doubt I'd go to 3 but I might be willing to put something like a lay of Liverpool up somewhere in between the two prices later in the week.

Need to have a think first as to how much of it is heart ruling head.

Can't find the same market offered anywhere else at the moment so no idea as to whether you could get better elsewhere

Azerty - yes, they have improved Spurs? But are they capable of driving them on to the next level? No. Their performances in both games against Wolves were well below what's needed. I was a huge fan of Palacios at Wigan but too many tmes last season I was disappointed with his contribution and Huddlestone looks great at times but can be extremely frustrating too. Again, just opinion, but I do not see Spurs having a season like last year's again this time and certainly don't see them making an impact in the CL. APologies if this offends any Tottenham supporters.

To be honest, I am probably more interested in taking Liverpool on with Everton but with the chances of one or two not being there by the start of the season, I am definitely considering looking at them in close season match bets

No worries LF. Let me know anyway. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this market. Also waiting for the high st's to go up with something to give me an idea.

VS. It wasnt a dig at all mate. Whilst I acually respect you boys greatly, I cant see you winning this particualr market. Can you?

40's if you do!

Azerty, whilst your opinion here is welcome and respected, please keep annoying forum phrases, such as "end of thread" off of this one. Let's try to keep it as a positive exchange of opinion and a lively, thought provoking debate rather than the all too familar "this person disagrees with me, I better try to make him look stupid" type thread that dominates this forum these days.

Can't Catch Me Joined: 02 Apr 03
Replies: 4236 26 Jul 10 11:59   
If you do think Liverpool are value btw, one bet I have had is Baldfreds 8/1 about us being Top Northwest Club. Looks a big price in a 3 horse race. As I think we all agree, Man City will struggle to gel these players this season, and Man Utd are not the force of old.


Once again a red refuses to acknowledge Everton.  The form team in the Northwest and only Chelsea finished the season stronger.  There is a good chance Liverpool will finish fourth out of the Northwest clubs and CCM's cockey statement would look foolish then.

azerty, I agree that selecting functional players in midfield is preferable to having a four with no defensive (and by that I mean positional) capabilities - you only need look at England.  What am I saying is that these two could be replaced by similarly functional players with similar results.  The improvement in Gomes cannot be dismissed can it?  He was hopeless in his first season and improved sufficiently to be first choice even before Cudicini's bad injury.  Anyway, Mick's point was are they the type of quality you expect to see in a Premier League title aspirant and I would agree that they aren't.  In addition, we know that competing in the Champions League might help attract players (though it hasn't helped Spurs yet hence 'arry going to the papers with his Joe Cole sob story) but it certainly doesn't help a club's title chances in terms of the number of games played and the rotation it requires.

This morning has been enjoyable, good stuff all. I'm off for some lunch and an orange juice and lemonade, but will return to trade the 20-20 double header, weather permitting. Play nicely in my absence please.

davey. Please see my reply to VS. No need to be so uppity mate. Its just my opinion. I'm not refusing to mention Everton. I just dont think you'll finish above us, Man Utd and man City. Sorry for that.

If Duff was to leave Fulham where would he go?? Back to Necastle?

As for Murphy who would take him?? I cant see either leaving Fulham before the season starts.

Think Fulham will stay up. WBA and Blackpool and maybe Wigan or Necastle.

I've actually backed you boys at 16's on the handicap too davey. Just to show you're forever in my thoughts

FF, apologies maybe I was unclear.  How will they go rather than where will they go!  I just wonder if they will have the same effect under a new manager.  Neither had shown the form they produced last season for some time.

I thought Wigan were vulnerable last term.  I think the season will bring them on and I can envisage a better showing this time.  Newcastle could struggle, agreed.

Didn't see VS's post this forum can be so slow

I would say it is 50/50 in a Liverool/Everton match bet this season.  City may well finish high up but that depends how well the new players gel, they may need one more season.  Only United are a sure thing to finish above Everton in my unbiased opinion [;)]

As for the handicap bet, you shroody

Will you lay me some Evs on us in a match bet with you then please?

I'm quite surprised that people who I would have considered better judges are so quick to write off Tottenham's chances.

Put simply, Spurs have top quality players all over the pitch, and are way overpriced, particularly for trading purposes, given the relative strength of their opposition in the first ten games.

For example, they are around eight times the price of City, who they humiliated twice in the League last season, and who have only signed one player - Toure - who I would expect to make a significant difference to their chances. They are around five times the price of Arsenal, who they finished just behind, and who have yet to acquire the players to turn their promise into achievement.

Even without new signings, Spurs have the squad, confidence and rate of ongoing improvement to get seriously involved in this year's title battle. There is money to spend though and Champions League football to entice new signings.

I feel that people my be allowing Spurs' recent record of uselessness to cloud their judgment of a team in the process of
becoming a major force in English football.

Re: relegation, I have yet to see any evidence that Newcastle have the squad to do anything other than flounder haplessly among the bottom five or six for the whole season, and West Ham are no certainties to improve, particularly given the fact that most of their better players appear to be available for transfer.

Interesting thread, shame all this nonsense about football ruined what could have been an enjoyable p1ss-take out of those horrible northerners.

CCM why would i do that when i could find far better odds?  I would enjoy taking your cash but it would be rather silly.

The reason a think Wigan is have heard there going to lose Rodallega. And they will struggle to score the goals they need.
As for Newcastle it will be the same old story. They will lose at OT then they have Villa at home then Wolves away all better teams.

Then they have Blackpool at home and away to Everton. could have maybe 3 or 4
points after 5 games. Then the fans start with all the sack so and so.

You wouldnt of course. Oh well, lets see what the season brings. You must be filling your boots on Everton around 2.4

Wigan could well be losing Figueroa too.

2.4 is that what it is?  I may have a look just before the start of the season and i will also see if any players leave that way.  Arteta and torres would be massive losses.

Thats on here mate. No high st's up yet. Think you'd get a bit higher too. Yes lots of possible changes in both teams personnel yet.

VS. I dont know what you want me to say. I dont think Everton can finish above all of those sides. If you do, fair play. We're quibbling over our own opinions which seems rather pointless.

FWIW, I think you are short up front. Saha wont play a whole season, and I think the Yak is on the decline. I think Osman is a very average winger and it says alot about your opinions of Billy that he even makes the XI ahead of him. You're only an injury to Arteta and losing Pienaar away from struggling to me. We can't start the season worse than last season and we can't have worse injuries than last seasonis an extremely dangerous thing to say imo. Why are you so sure?

But as I said, I obviously respect you as I have placed my hard earned on you in some capacity. As for asking for 1000's. Deserving of a lol I'm afraid.

Of course. And I agree. I think 40's is probably overpriced for you in this market. If I think Man Utd and Man City are too short, then it follows that others will be overpriced, and its possible we both are.

At the end of the day its an 8/1 shot. It will probably lose. But I think its value. More than 4 times the price of Man City? Thats daft. Likewise, you are 20 times the price of man City. That is also daft.

Dukey, I accept what you say about a trading price.  Particularly as I think it's pretty open this time round.  If it weren't for the return to fitness of Essien I'd have Chelsea as weaker by virtue of the ageing process this season.  I don't see any improvement in United but they might not need to improve.  Arsenal are the team I like at the current prices but they should have signed David James.  How can you want Schwarzer but not James?  Defies belief.  The Fabregas issue is a concern, even if he stays.  Can you put everything in if you want to be elsewhere?  Again, an imponderable.  They are a side that will have "come on for the run" for me though.  I don't see Spurs being there at the business end but if you are trading prices then, yes, it may well be that the continuity in their squad sees them trade a good deal shorter than 40 before Xmas.   

Re your WHU thoughts, I note that Spin have them at 41 points to sell.  It is very difficult to see much downside there.

cgull

Apologies to your good self i miss read your post re Duff and Murphy.

To much good reading to been done for a change.
Hope this sort of thread is the beging of many at long last.

What a good thread to read - thanks to everyone who has contributed.

One point in my mind re: Spurs, up until the second half of last season, I was convinced that Palacious was the major difference for Spurs.

But then, without him, they murdered Chelsea with Modric and Huddlestone in midfield.

I think this showed me that with Harry's motivation, particularly at home, they have the ability to control games and dictate play - meaning that they're holding midfielder, as good as he is, is not the only factor in Spurs' revival.

their*

Just a not of caution to those fans who think their injury problems cant possibly be replicated this season ... they can!

Arsenal fans have been saying the same thing for the last 3 summers and even lead to Wenger trying to find reasons why are injuries have been so profilic the past 3 years. Is the new stadium? Training methods ? They style of our play ? The fact we have so many midgets. You decide.

But injuries can strike any club, any time, any where

* note

Just said it was very very unlikley. Doubt we'll have to play a backline of mids this year at any stage.

A mention on Robin van Persie too, everyone's favourite striker

He didn't appear to play to well in the world cup ( I thought he did fine in his role and was a bit of a sacrifical lamb for Robben/Snider) but he did at least play 7 straight games at the highest level. I cant remember the last time he did that for the Arsenal so it's a big positive,imo.

RVP falls into the Rio category though innit, sint.  Spread on number of games started?  21-24.

Good afternoon.

Sorry sint, I see you are trying to make a case that RVP will be enjoying a long and prosperous season.  Good luck with that.   

'ello Mick.  The 2nd T:20 encounter is a lipsmacker.

Any Arsenal fan should be very happy with the return of Rosickys this season
He has been playing pre season and looks likely to playing at the start of the season.

Still cant make my mind up if they can push on and do well againts the so called
bigger teams!

Also as for Man city they have a massed a group of players! But can they play as a team? or will that take a season? iam not sure.

They both are, cgullman. I fancy Hants strongly in the first one. No Trott or Bell for Warwickshire. I quietly fancy Good Old Sussex Byut The Sea later too. And Lancashire could make it an away day treble. In fact, I'm going to back the treble, just because I can, but I'm going to have a big old smash on Hampshire. Darren Maddy's overpriced for top Warks bat at 5's. He opened the last time Trott wasn't playing, so seems reasonable to suggest he will do again, and 5's any decent opener isn 20-20 is good enough for me.

It would be nice if he could Cgull but agree it's not very likely going on past history . Time will tell though and I think he last injury was just unfortunate. He was on the end of a heavy tackle from Johnathan Zebina ? and twisted his ankle thus the ligament damage.

Rosicky has been injured for the best part of 2 years. I thought he should have been allowed to leave, but if he can return to top form (that of his Hamburg days) then it would be great to have him.Still a midget,though.

Forget about us against the bigger sides until we strengthen again, imo. Time is running out.

Excellent start for your maddy bet Mick.

great call on maddy, Mick, think 44 will be plenty now.

I had a look after you posted but it was already off so never got on. Bugger

Troughton GONE.  Big wicket for Maddy backers.

Good shout by Mick re: Maddy. He must have seen that Sky Sports News identified him as their One to Watch today...

SPAM

Yes, that's what it was Max.

Never watched 20:20 before, only the Internationals. The commentators speaking to the players on field whilst in-play is quite good,innit.

Hamps obliged at 8/13. Vince the main Man.