Liverpool Shoestring budget

it's ridiculous

every club has to buy laces, money has to come from somewhere, cant see your problem

our young players use velcro

relative, of course. But if you can give me one other reason why a team top of the Prem would sell their only fit, established centre forward mid-season, i'd like to hear it.

Tricky - I could knock you down with a one-inch punch.

DI liverpool lost one game last season after keane was sold and the owners kept the money from the sale to lower the debt the put on the club HTH

RMB idol, never speak to me again or i will destroy you!

Duncan because of Liverpool issues, bought by board benitez dont want him!

The keane thing was all about NET SPEND imo they spent on someone who could not hit the net

I can give you another reason duncan - benitez had already spent 150m! you can't spend the second biggest amount in the league over 5 seasons and then complain you're on a shooestring when it runs out

budget isn't just about transfer fees though, im pretty sure Liverpool have the 5th highest wage bill in the PL.

If you recouped 100 + million I reckon you can imo

RP - 150m is the net spend.

RP your net spend is still well high!

oh 5th highest thats so bad

apologies, the net is 127m (arsenal over same period is 27m profit)

i recognise all those points (indeed my point was that it was to recoup money...whether for future spend or to lower debt...all adds up to having less money than desirable/MU or Chelsea ), but i still feel it is unprecedented for a team pressing for the title to by design leave themselves vulnerable like that. the 'only lost one game after' point is hindsight. we may alose only 1 more game this sesaon but who could forecast that know?

from today's papers

Manager Rafael Benitez will try and solve Liverpool's striker crisis by making a £32m move for West Ham's Carlton Cole in January.

£32m LMFGAO :^0

''RP your net spend is still well high!

oh 5th highest thats so bad''



No one's saying we are paupers or that we dont have an advantage over your Boltons and Fulhams. But people want the manager sacked for not beating club's funded by 78,000 a week thru the gate or Russian billionaires. That's the issue here. The level of expectation

I honestly have no interest in how much my club spends, I want success, dont care if it comes the way chelsea and city pursued/ pursuing it or if its attained by buying cheap players who turn out to be world class, I have no problem with people who like these sort of things its just not my cup of tea

everyone has to cope with it, up till a couple of years ago Arse had to compete with Pools outrageous level of spending!

duncan - you have outspent man utd and arsenal though, so the money through the gate is irrelevant

Here's the full list of players he's signed since he's been at the club (please read the summary below):

2004/05

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m

2006/07

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08


£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 Daniel ODonnell: Kid sold
Free Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didnt work out.
£1.2m Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasnt settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m David Ngog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didnt work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: £39m

£4m John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m Robbie Keane: Didnt work out.
Undisclosed Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didnt progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m


2009/10

£17.5m Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypias shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 Paul Anderson: Youngster that didnt progess.
Free Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didnt get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000


Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000

No it's not maverick, but that argument has been done to death on here and everywhere else, so i'm not going there again

exactly you have the 5th highest wage bill but its almost expected that they should be challenging for the title. The truth is there are at least 2 teams that should be finishing ahead of Liverpool in terms of the money they've spent on transfers and wages, expectations are probably unrealistic but thats football.

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.

Good signing??? The nutter with the putter????

:^0

and the net spend argument has been done to death, on average Benitez has spent around £20 million per season since he arrived, is that enough to overturn teams like Man Utd and Arsenal who have managers that have been in their jobs much longer, or Chelsea who spend huge amounts in a short time.

Net spend only tells one story, you also have to consider the relative strengths of the different squads during that period, certainly Benitez had more players to shift than his rivals.

Teams wage bill is another expenditure that often gets overlooked but is usually a pretty good gauge about the quality of player being signed i.e the better quality the player the higher the wage. I think Liverpool have the 5th highest wage bill in the PL.

according to the times:
Liverpool total net spend 2004-09: £122m loss

2004-05 Net spend: £31.05m loss in total
Players in + fee: Djibril Cisse £14m, Josemi £2m, Luis Garcia £6m, Xabi Alonso £10.5m, Antonio Nunez £2m, Mauricio Pellegrino free, Fernando Morientes £6.3m, Scott Carson £0.75m.
Players out + fee: Markus Babbel free, Danny Murphy £2.5m, Michael Owen £8m, Stephane Henchoz free.

2005-06 Net spend: £23.4m loss
Players in + fee: Pepe Reina (£6m), Mark Gonzalez (£4.5m), Boudewijn Zenden (free), Antonio Barragan (£0.25m), Mohamed Sissoko (£5.6m), Peter Crouch (£7m), Godwin Antwin (£0.5m), Jack Hobbs (£0.75m), Paul Anderson (£1m), Jan Kromkamp (Swap), David Martin (£0.5m), Daniel Agger (£5.8m), Robbie Fowler (Free).
Players out + fee: Vladimir Smicer (Free), El Hadji Diouf (£1.5m), Mauricio Pellegrino (Free), Gregory Vignal (Free), Antonio Nunez (£0.5m), Ritchie Partridge (Free), Milan Baros (£6.5m), Josemi (Swap).

2006-07 Net spend: £32.85m loss
Players in + fee: Craig Bellamy £6m, Gabriel Paletta £2m, Fabio Aurelio Free, Jermaine Pennant £6.7m, Dirk Kuyt £9m, Nabil El Zhar £1m, Alvaro Arbeloa £2.6m, Francisco Manuel Duran Free, Javier Mascherano £18.6m.
Players out + fee: Fernando Morientes £3m, Bruno Cheyrou (£0.5m), Dietmar Hamann (£0.4m), Carl Medjani Free, Antonio Barragan (£0.7m), Djimi Traore (£2m),Neil Mellor £1m, Jan Kromkamp £1.7m, Chris Kirkland £2m, Darren Potter £0.25m, Stephen Warnock £1.5m, Salif Diao Free.

2007-08 Net spend: £23.3m loss
Players in + fee: Andriy Voronin Free, Krisztian Nemeth £0.5m, Charles-Hubert Itandje £3.5m, Fernando Torres £26.5m, Yossi Benayoun £5m,Ryan Babel £11.5m, Emiliano Insua £2m*, Damien Plessis (£1m), Martin Skrtel (£6m).
Players out + fee: Florent Sinoma Pongolle £2.7m, Danny ODonnell £0.1m, Luis Garcia £4m, Boudewijn Zenden Free, Djibril Cisse £6m, Craig Bellamy £7.5m, Mark Gonzalez £4.2m, Jerzey Dudek Free, Robbie Fowler Free, Mohamed Sissoko £8.2m, Gabriel Paletta Swap.

2008-09 Net spend: £6.45m loss
Players in + fee: Philipp Degen free, Andrea Dossena £7m, Diego Cavalieri £3.5m, David Ngog £1.5m, Robbie Keane £20.3m, Vitor Flora Free, Albert Riera £8m.
Players out + fee: Anthony Le Tallec £1.1m, Harry Kewell Free, Peter Crouch £9m, Danny Guthrie £2.5m, Scott Carson £3.25m, John Arne Riise £4m, Steve Finnan £2m, Robbie Keane £12m.

2009-10 Net spend: £4.95m loss
Players in + fee: Glen Johnson £18m, Alberto Aquilani £20m, Sotiros Kyrgiakos £2m.
Players out + fee: Paul Anderson £0.25m, Sebastian Leto £1.3m, Sami Hyypia Free, Jermaine Pennant Free, Alvaro Arbeloa £3.5m, Xabi Alonso £30m.

excuses.

Rafa has spent a lot of money on average players. If they were any good you would not be in this predicament.

IN RAFA WE TRUST

18-5
YMCA

the main point on transfers though is that whether he has a net spend of 80, 100, 120 or 150m - he has a squad that is unrecognisable when 2 players are injured, and one of those players was there before he joined!

wrong maverick. i've copied and pasted the true buy and sells

they are more reliant than their rivals on their key players and it just so happens all of their key players are getting injured. So you take away Gerrard, Torres, Johnson and a few others and it doesn't look great, but building a strong squad takes time.

Ferguson spends a lot of money on big players, but he also manages to buy players beow £10m that prove to be top class. Players like Vidic,Evra and so on.

Rafa has purchased dozens of players between £5m & £10m and how many of those would get into a tile winning side ?

chicken - I've copied from The Times. Many are speculative as private companies do not need to disclose actual numbers. No-one can say theirs is definitive

hes signed a few in that category that id class sucesses...

Reina
Agger
Benayoun
Alonso (just over £10million)

The more pertinent point might be how many signings over £15 million has Ferguson made compared to Benitez?

the main point on transfers though is that whether he has a net spend of 80, 100, 120 or 150m - he has a squad that is unrecognisable when 2 players are injured, and one of those players was there before he joined!

Did the same thing not apply last season where they finished second, and the two players mentioned hardly played together, this season has seen the same scenario only it was weakened by alonso leaving (replacement not played) addittion of johnson, and the decline in form of carragher, no real differnce, just the results are far worse, the squad remains the same,

Rafa has purchased dozens of players between £5m & £10m

dozens? really

'Rafa has purchased dozens of players between £5m & £10m and how many of those would get into a tile winning side ?''


About half a dozen got within 4 pts last season, so not a dead loss, eh?

Its quite a good debate this one (unusual for this particular subject, must have some normal people on ) keep it going

stop comparing to jsut 2 clubs, another 89 in the league who would love that shoe stringbudget, has mav has stated Rafa has bought so much carp with the cash he has spent! too many of his signings under 10m are useless.
He cant find gems on his own, a Clichy for 250k, Toure for 500k etc.

RP a good debate on Betfair forum! whatever next :-)

But he isn't being compared against 89 other teams hes being compared against Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal.

Carlton Cole will be the final piece in the jigsaw

The two arsenal gems have won nothing in the last 3 years, same as the liverpool gems, they have also finished behind the liverpool gems in the league 3 out of 4 seasons, its not always that straight forward imo

maverick:
that has been put together by a fan who used liverpool history which has the exact prices . the times LOL leto went for 3 million haven't even looked at the rest. now i'm sure you wouldn't get hoodwinked by the meedja,but even you must see there is an anti-benitez campaign in the press

duncan, list your starting XI for last season on paper .. and then compare to the starting XI of Man U,Chelsea & Arsenal for the last time those sides won the league.

There is a lot of players in the side that are good but not good enough.

I agree. To me it seems there are 2 types of manager. One type sees themself as a shop steward, almost the enemy of the board, and constantly challenges the board to provide them with more funds and in the fans mind links success to the backing they are given. Benitez is the poster boy for this type of manager but others are redknapp, keegan. These guys demand a budget and then find players to spend it on.

The other type sees themself as a stakeholder in the club itself, on a par with the board and spends money like it is their own (wenger, moyes). These guys target specific players and if they can get them they do, if they can't they don't go out and spend the money on the next best thing.

a liverpool fan? so no biased there then! :-)

You are always judged on what you spend and i admire the way you lot stick up for Benitez but he has been a shocker in the transfer market!

sorry chicken but there is no such thing as exact prices. Transfers do not always have a headline price but have numerous variables. The fact you say it was put together by a fan puts me on alert right away

i'm a liverpool fan and i fully expect a ribbing, but not with in- accurate posting spurs and sunderland have out spend us this summer NET

Why was Nemeth sent out on loan? Saw him pre season. Looked like a classy player. Scored a ridiculous amount of goals for your reserves or so I'm lead top believe.

Should he not have been kept?

*to

maverick
fair play but it has been backed up with facts i'll look for the website it is a liverpools own site and it's is their history of transfer dealings

lehmann
lauren,toure,campbell,cole
ljungberg,viera,gilberto,pires
henry,bergkamp.

cech
ferreira,carvalho,terry,bridge
robben,makalele,lampard,duff
drogba,crespo

van der sar,
evra,vidic,rio,o'shea
carrick,anderson,scholes
ronaldo,giggs,rooney.

Roughly, the starting XI for the PL winning sides of those clubs.

Compare those with Liverpool ??

I guess he was sent out for experience, he is still young, plays up front for his country, but was alwas going to be behind torres, babel, and even voronin (wrong I know) due to lack of experience, it may well have been the wrong decision, but I think Rafa thinks the reserve leagues are next to useless for advancing young players, so I guess thats why imo

on loan to get first team experience. agree though. he was let out on loan as benitez said he'd have money for one more big signing(didn't happen as owners paid of their debt with it)

lehmann 3m

lauren, 5m
toure,500k
campbell Free
,cole Free

ljungberg 2.5m
,viera,3.5m
gilberto 4m
,pires 7m
henry 10.5m
,bergkamp.7.5m

:-0

down to wenger. some brilliant buys but that was a while ago i mean look of the price of henry and bergkamp and put that next to stewart downing you get ** all now for 10 mill

lehmann/
lauren,/johnsontoure,campbell,cole
ljungberg,viera,gilberto,pires
henry,bergkamp.

cech
ferreira,carvalho,terry,bridge
robben,makalele,lampard,duff
drogba,crespo

van der sar,
evra,vidic,rio,o'shea
carrick,anderson,scholes
ronaldo,giggs,rooney.

Roughly, the starting XI for the PL winning sides of those clubs.

Compare those with Liverpool ??

Riena
johnson carragher agger aurellio maybe not as good but not far behind (cara last season)

aquellani (who knows) Gerrard masherano benayoun a midfield 4 with twoas good as any of above
Torres ( currently as good as all) berkamp/henry (time will tell)
no other striker good enough imo

So this 10 for me playing regular with another striker and some other bench current squad players would be good enough to challenge this season current 6 teams above again my opinion

Mascherano/benayoun/riera/gerrard dont match up to the other midifelders.

Only Gerrard would have a chance of displacing any member of the others sides midfield imo.

nor would the back 4.

only gerrard would have chance??Christ he would walk into any of those teams

I disagree. Gerrard is a great player if the team is built around him. He's not so much a cog as the whole bloody machine.

lehmann/
lauren,/toure,campbell,cole
ljungberg,viera,gilberto,pires
henry,bergkamp

Riena is as good as lehman, look at his statistics, and thats playing behind aback 4 you say are not as good
Johnson is no worse than Lauren,
carragher is/was as good as toure if not better
mascherano as good as silva in the holding role, not as good as viera
Gerrard is as good as/better than viera, and better than all the rest
Torres is probably world class, the arsenal two where defo world class, but its a good alterantive
Its all about opinions the players mentioned would all get in the other sides imo,

As I said the ten players I mentioned playing regulary with one more striker would challenge for the league this season imo, hopefully after xmas they will be available and we can get verdict on m opinion

Put like that you do have a point, i just hate this shoestring budget excuse!

im talking like for like positions.

Gerrard you can put in place of a Scholes or Lampard or Viera, they are all top class players.

But the other players to go around are thin and far between in the Liverpool squad.

C'mon, would any top team have taken Voronin back if they weren't skint?!

would any team have bought Silvestre if they weren't skint ?

At the end of the day (cliche) rafa has made too many poor signings.

iyo

I can understand people getting annoyed over that line of excuse, given the amounts spent, It may well be that he has a deeper insight to the money available and financial situation and he is eluding to that fact, I honestly dont know, I have to say his dealing with he press over recent matters that have gone against or proved awkward has made me look at him with more respect, after the beech ball thing he blamed the teams perfromance , he admitted the ngog decision was wrong, all whilst he is under pressure

There's alot of hysterical garbage written on here about Liverpool and their record under Benitez both from opposition fans and Liverpool fans themselves. Far too much to really go into in any detail.

I would agree that he's significantly improved the squad from the team he inherited, in almost every position, he also improved the performances of carragher and gerrard significantly (fair to say Carraghers on the wane now though). Their full and fit first XI would be more than capable, as they proved last year, of beating anyone. The teams they have fielded for every defeat this season, with possibly the exception of the Chelsea game were capable of getting results or put it another way - before the kick off would any Liverpool fan have swapped their first XI for the opposition first XI? Unlikely imo.

The arguments about money completely miss the point in my opinion, Benitez is happy to let this myth of having no real money to spend continue as it lowers expectation and is a ready made excuse to trot out should they fail. The fact that they came within home victories against any 2 of WHU/Fulham and Hull of a title last year should be enough to dispel this myth for good, all those teams spend a fraction of Liverpools budget and yet they failed to beat them. The other point people tend to make is that teams like United have multi million pound players on their bench, that is true but ask the same fans their opinion of these expensive subs and they'll almost certainly tell you they're cr4p, Nani / Anderson / carrick / Berbatov and even Rooney are all regularly slated on here by the exact same fans that will point to Liverpools lack of funds to match their purchases.

The other issue is that the money situation is unlikely to change anytime soon with G&H in charge, there's always the chance that a Middle East billionaire will come to the rescue but the prospect of spending upwards of 400m on a stadium before spending a single penny on the squad will be a stumbling block. If we accept the ludicrous assertion that Benitez works 'on a shoestring' that leaves Liverpool unable to compete at the very top level then is Benitez right? Do people expect too much? Are Liverpool at best fighting for 4th from now on?

Eventually he will be sacked and then we can all agree he makes some very poor decisions.

In the meantime:

I :x Rafa.

seems some confusion in the Robbie Keane deal, chicken

soccerbase and Spurs seem to report a decent profit (£8.3 m on soccerbase, £20.3 vs £12) whereas you have a more optimistic £3m loss for Liverpool

soccerbase also has Gonzalez at £4.5m (not £1.5m as you state), and Crouch out at £9m (not £11m). and how on earth did anyone pay £2m for Alou Diarra when he never kicked a ball for Liverpool in three seasons?

as maverick says, its often hard to get a real figure for many of these deals. some have add-ons depending on apps, trophies, some figures are reported as transfer + wages to make them seem more exciting (eg "Torres signed in £26m deal" might mean £20m transfer + £6m wages)

Liverpools squad cost £158m

5 other sides in the Prem have squads costing £230m-£260m

These are facts!

Also, for those who criticise Rafa's record, he has only ever lost money on 4 transfers I believe. Thats not bad.

But as usual, Sir Digby speaks alot of sense

what are those 5 other teams! sure it aint Arse!

and if he buys crap and lets them go at cheaper prices that wont be in squad prices

Tricky. Alot of what I would say has been posted on here already.

Of course Benitez has had good money compared to lesser clubs. But thats irrelevant. He is only being compared to Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal. Take them individually. Wenger is one of the greatest Managers of all time and has done a great job. I dont mind if rafa falls short of his standard. That said, he has beaten him 4 out of 5 seasons and Wenger needs to win a trophy to cap the recent job he has done.

The current blip and injury problems are making people over react. Rafa did a great job last year and will get us back on track.

I think the cost of the squad says alot tbh.

1 Edwin Van der Sar (G) £2m
2 Gary Neville (D) Youth
3 Patrice Evra (D) £5.5m
4 Owen Hargreaves (M) £17m
5 Rio Ferdinand (D) £30m
6 Wes Brown (D) Youth
7 Michael Owen (F) Free
8 Anderson (M) £14m
9 Dimitar Berbatov (F) £31m
10 Wayne Rooney (F) £20m initial widely reported to rise to £27m
11 Ryan Giggs (M) Youth
12 Ben Foster (G) £1m
13 Ji-Sung Park (M) £4m
14 Zoran Tosic (M) £bought with another player for a combined fee which could rise to 16.3m, for arguments sake £8m
15 Nemanja Vidic (D) £7m
16 Michael Carrick (M) £16 (some say 14m/some18m)
17 Nani (M) £17m
18 Paul Scholes (M) Youth
19 Danny Welbeck (F) "
20 Fabio Da Silva (D)
21 Rafael Da Silva (D)
22 John O'Shea (D)
23 Jonny Evans (D)
24 Darren Fletcher (M)
25 Luis Antonio Valencia (M) £16m
26 Gabriel Obertan (M) £3m
27 Federico Macheda (F)
28 Darron Gibson (M)
29 Tomasz Kuszczak (G) £3m
31 Corry Evans (M)
33 Sam Hewson (M)
38 Ron-Robert Zieler (G)
41 Joshua King
42 Magnus Eikrem
44 Ritchie de Laet (D) £1m
47 Matthew James (M)



What does that come to?

Just over £200m I reckon?

I would love to have the time and knowledge to do these exercises myself. But Paul Tomkins (very, very biased Liverpool journo) reckons he spent a significant amount of time on it and came to the figures I posted.

As Sugarfoot suggests,no-one knows the real anwers.

To be fair, alot of the names you have no fees against will have cost money too.

lets not forget man utd have similar owners what has happened to the 80 mill from the ronaldo sale?
as i'm sure what they spend in the jan/summer windows will have come from the tv rights or profits from gates. will fergie get to see that money?

sir digby - totting that lot up I make it 3rd at best :)

I've tried to be as comprehensive as possible, I can't find any evidence for fees being paid for any of the players which i've indicated cost nothing, they either came through the academy or were signed as youngsters from other academies for no reported fees.

Of course they need wages and family jobs on the groundstaff ;), much like any other club I expect.

Anyway. None of us know for sure and we've done this to death.

My sumary is that as you rightly say... we came within 2 wins against sides we should be beating of winning the league last season. That should be the most important issue when looking at what Rafa has done overall.


Yes he's made alot of mistakes, but considering where we were when he arrived, and the quality of sides in the Prem around us, that, and that alone for me, proves he has been and is doing a good job.

also the 2 serbs signed reports say 17m (that includes add ons) i.e if utd win league, CL surely no more that 4 million add ons?

agree with CCM

The 2 serbs signed for combined fees THAT COULD EVENTUALLY RISE to 16.3 million for BOTH.

The fact that i've put the fee for Tosic at 8mill when he's extremely unlikely to have earned Partizan belgrade any of those add ons is more than fair imo.

agree with TCG

If LFC are on a shoestring budget will they be bringing Trevor Eve in during the January window!!

What I find odd though... is that if you ask most people, Fergie and Wenger are both fantastic Manager's doing terrific jobs and very rarely receive criticsim (rightly so).

In recent times, Rafa has been competing with them and questionable figures of spending aside, he gets very little other than stick. Add to that the fact we had the best European record of any team in the Prem until last season since he has been here, and its even more surprising. I know he's not the most likeable character, but very few people have a good perspective on things.

Everyone thinks he has been there forever. 5 years isnt that long. He has assembled a very good first team and with a couple more years and extra strengthening, we're not that far away from a good squad.

I think it all hinges on our history and people expecting more of us because of our past. I'm not saying I would ever have admitted this when rafa rrived, but we were a genuine 4th place team who could have slipped further back then. The other 3 havent exactly sat back in the last 5 years and have had great Managers taking them forward too.

To be honest, I think the fact he constantly uses money, or the lack of it, as an excuse is one of the main reasons he gets criticised.

My other point about this would be that by using it as an excuse he is also providing a ready made excuse for his players who may subconciously believe it's OK to fail.

Is constantly referring to the inability to compete just tantamount to saying 'this lot i've got aren't good enough'?

Yep fair point.

SDCC see what your saying, but it is true what he says.ppl read too many headlines then use them, themselves as fact. he stated in feb 09 that he never had the money to compete with utd and chelsea( which is correct). then in august he was asked about buying new players after alsonso went he said this