4th Test, Manchester

Cmon England!

any self respecting trader, can and should usually find things to blame other than themselves....

High-five.

I'm really hoping and praying for the draw.

Yesterday Sky were well out of line with series score , 2-1 was 11/1 so I helped myself to a nice piece of that. They cut it to 11/2 I think it was after an hour or so.

Hopefully Broad will be fired up by having not been chosen as one or two here...

surprised but pleased to see some play. Hope it goes on until stumps now.

So much for weather forecast, now saying light rain with a gentle breeze but it looks okay now.

Lucky I didn't go out as BBC predicted Armageddon today and I wasn't expecting any play.

Umpires decided only spin allowed?

The weather has still fooked us here hasn't it

thank God  for that, 2 hours of proper Test cricket for the 1st time this series .

From a purely financial point of view the draw would be a cracking result for me but if we do win then what a final test we'll havevto look forward to.

I should've been a weather man. Everyone looks at the same data, but one model says 96% chance of rain in an hour, another says 10%. It's more like an arts subject than a science - there are no wrong answers!

Fair play to Marsh and Lasagne, Aus looked shot yesterday but they've steadied the ship. England must be big favourites for the Oval though if the Ashes are decided here.

Draw now 1.38 ? Are the sooth sayers predicting rain again tomorrow ?

You never know. Even a blind chook picks the odd bit of corn etc. Radar looks ugly though.

Doesn't look good tomorrow either

Even if they get on they won't be allowed to bowl the quicks like today

Gaps in the rain and gaps in the cloud in the current forecast.

I guess we could get lucky or unlucky. If we get play, I'm sure we'll have the pick of our bowlers.

On the plus-side, we have one more Aussie wicket than I expected this morning...but to counter that we've conceded 100 runs.

I'd definitely have taken that this morning.

I think England would fancy chasing anything around 8/9 an over, should we have the chance, so runs aren't too big a problem, yet.

Gaps in the rain and gaps in the cloud in the current forecast.

rather depends on whose forecasts to be fair mate...met going again now with solid rain - though as with all of them...trust at your peril

to be fair to any of them tomorrow looks more like a oscillating band that could either just miss Old Trafford or spend most of the day over it....

not quite sure what their excuse was today - other than humans and AI models still can't accurately predict complex weather systems...

strange how the umpires said it was too dark to play the quicks at the same ttime as they were wearing sunglasses

strange how the umpires said it was too dark to play the quicks at the same ttime as they were wearing sunglasses

can say that again...

and also without taking any light reading....till after they'd declared the light unfit for quicks...something they can certainly do but very rarely do to say the least..

Wood felt a reasonable exclusion at 92-95mph missiles...not sure about the other seamers...

Too keen to restart play; the ball had been reversing but this was lost straight away on the wet outfield. Suppose they were in a no win situation as they probably wouldn't have played if they'd waited for it to dry out adequately..

was fit to play...umpires call and looked it tbh TC..

Frustrating we couldn't nick another wicket as that would have opened up their weaker tail for Wood

We might not need long if Wood rips through them after 6 down

15 overs if we get on a roll if we get Marsh out quickly

If I read the forecast correctly, there’s a 90% chance of rain every hour from 11.00 - 19.00.

sky news forecast doesn't look overly optimistic ... current england odds 2.98 which have drifted in the past 30 mins don't offer much hope either .. as is always said its the hope that kills you

restart at 1
eng just gone 11 to 2 from 9 to 2 which suggests its raining again

I think we need to accept it's done

A sad way for this series to end sadly, the fooking rain

perfect example of following the money and not the RA RA reporter on SSN who,s been starting play for 4 hrs now and keeps telling everyone its not raining

Good effort by England but the damage was done not giving the gloves to Foakes and this was because of the team imbalance as Stokes was unable to bowl.

England has the best of the weather this series too.

I think Australia are a better side so it is all the more galling to lose the first two Tests which were there for the taking.

All in all I like the way England have responded and there are positives to build on. Balancing the team is going to be difficult

I also think Old Trafford is not fit to be a Test ground. Very poor imho. Queues for toilets and food were over half an hour at times, which, is ridiculous!

if we can win the final test it will at least reflect the efforts of the team this series ... we made mistakes in the first 2 tests perhaps by being overly aggressive which could have been tempered slightly but can't fault the entertainment and endeavour to go for the win each time ... the Aussies can count themselves a little fortunate which isn't much consolation admittedly but the weather in the UK is always variable

We should not be in this situation, Stokes let his ego get the better of him in the first test. We "should " be 2-1 up, not 2-1 down.

if bazball means teams ringing the boundary with fielders on days 2 and 3 of test  matches the only difference between test cricket and white/pink ball/IPL is their not wearing PJ,S

This team has huge potential.  Needs a different approach of leadership in my view.

agree 100% 1st time poster.

Jul 23, 2023 -- 8:02AM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

I also think Old Trafford is not fit to be a Test ground. Very poor imho. Queues for toilets and food were over half an hour at times, which, is ridiculous!

not enough in the pitches for bowlers either, as lancs will testify this ssn
albeit this is the 1st test draw for a while

2nd time test cricket has robbed me,i was brought up thinking boycott etc never offered a chance every shot along the ground it was only when ch 4/sky had camera,s everywhere,that 90% of shots are in the air

Great that we look to have retained the Ashes. 4 tosses lost, had the worst of the conditions and Lyon out injured. Haven't played our best cricket either. It's good to be the no. 1 test side in the world.

well done TMB..won some key moments ultimately but feels as though you were hanging on here to say the least..

a few issues for Australia going forward with Warner's continued decline, Smith and Labuschagne not hitting their heights for the most part...rather more surprising was how quickly the wheels came off at times when England went on the full attack with the bat...

Cummins looks knackered after 5 consecutive games in quick succession (with the WTC)  - can't really rotate the skipper the way every other seam bowler has been...Boland who'd been so impressive going into the series got knocked off his metronomic line and length rather easily...I thought England would get found out quite badly this series but it's been a long way from that...

This has to be the last time Old Trafford gets a crucial Ashes test match ffs

This is the second time they've had a crucial fourth test (2013 the other from memory) and it's been drawn because of rain with a team chasing a win, if they don't just give it a first test from now on it'll be an utter disgrace. When most of the country is basking in sunshine Manchester is pi33ing down (been sunny since 2 here in Nottinghamshire) so why run the risk of giving a big test such as this is idiotic.

Congratulations to Australia, they've pretty much got full revenge for 2013, the broad incident avenged and it's gone full circle with them retaining the urn at Old Trafford because of rain. On the whole it's just about deserved but sick we didn't get a chance to level it.

Always takes 2 teams to make a contest and Pomms have done well. They haven't won though and for me its all about results. All the issues above are correct but its still not led to a loss. We can play better there is no doubt about that but credit to England who had this game won.

And the weather for Manchester tomorrow... interval Sunshine and no rain

Fook off, Manchester, and take Oasis with you. Di cks.

Try My Best, enjoy it mate. We did during 2013 and this feels like a real boot on other foot moment if ever this analogy was more apt.

Hopefully we give it a go in Australia next series

Hopefully some benefitted from this financially

If you did nice one

Went on the first day SS and nearly got sunstroke it was that warm. Manchester a great city and I disagree about the venue. Found the atmosphere great and the VIP tickets very good.

over 2 years to the next series in Oz ... england will need to look at bowlers coming through as Anderson: likely Broad as well & Woakes won't play over there ... Potts & Carse at Durham are prospects with lots of potential to move into the squad alongside Tongue .. lets hope some more front up so we have choices

It's the risky weather try my best

Yeah for sure Geordie, bowling will look different in 2 years time

Archer looks done so need another nasty fooker

Curran not really cut out for tests either

Wood will surely be one

But there's no way we can go rocking up there with Anderson, Robinson and Woakes again

78mph back of a length trundlers

Australians all let us rejoice!

England deserved to lose for picking a knackered old frat like Anderson. And a for playing Bairstow at the stumps. His only contribution with the bat was to delay a much needed declaration on the third day, by his own admission he is not fit enough to keep wicket and he has been pony all series.

As for Bazball, For me it is the coach giving a bunch of one day batsmen the licence to do what they want in the 5 day game.
Test cricket is not the pinnacle of the game anymore.
T20 and the world cup is.
If you want to make serious bucks in cricket you want to get an IPL contract. That has to be the biggest motivation for young players.
England running up big scores against a  bunch of disinterested Zedders & Pakistan test cricketers is all well and good. The real test will be in the winter in India. And then the next Ashes down under.
I can only see more defeat.

Lets face facts.
The English can go on about rain in manchester and cheating Aussies all they like but at best they might have nicked this series 3-2.
Considering they lost the last Ashes in Oz by 4-0 and its a bit like claiming a victory over Real Madrid at home in the UCL only to lose on aggregate 6-3.

I think the Aussies have done brilliantly well being asked to play 6 test matches away from home in quick succession. Their retention of the Urn is fully deserved.

stokes and alex hartley  on tms,   " if anyone suggest that we  should have declared earlier on friday, they  dont know anything about the game", what a stupid comment, of course he should have dec sooner

to be fair they should have also batted 1st after winning toss,seems under bazzball their always going to have a bowl 1st,maybe bazzball doesnt work when batting 1st on 1st morning of a test match

got very spikey when asked same ? on sky ,one word answer NO

as a non cricketing expert who likes test cricket, why cant they come back tomorrow and finish this?........its going to be dry all day. i dont get it.
admit it. this has totally ruined the whole series. there has only been 3.333 days play in the 4th test. why cant we finish off the 1.67 days play when it dries up?

The next test is thursday.
So you give both teams two days off after having played 4 tests almost back to back.
Brilliant idea.
Fact is England had enough chances to win at OT even in the time alotted.
They had 3 hours last night and did the square root of fluck all.

The time requirement on the modern elite professional sportsman is incredibly pressurised.
The idea of having an 'extra day' in case of rain for a spoilt test match, its a non runner. sorry.

stokes thinks theres BIGGER things than the ashes

just chases headlines spouting **** to create headlines

almost as though he,s trying to knee cap test cricket,so they can all get millions to dress in their PJ,s

thelatarps................"So you give both teams two days off after having played 4 tests almost back to back.Brilliant idea."

they have had the whole of today off and most of yesterday off..........im sure they can manage it..........anyway, have at least 2 weeks before each test...........crikey man, work it out.

the amount of grand slam tennis tournaments that went on to be played on the monday.......too many to mention..........maybe we should have joint winners when the final cannot be played because of rain.....
it makes a a farce of the game.
this series has been a gift to sport, but its been decided by rain now. what a total joke.........monday has all day sunshine.

Almost certainly the Australian Board who decreed the team should play 6 Tests in 8 weeks...players don't like long tours anymore

This series has been driven by the english sporting media narrative of BazBall reclaiming the Ashes.
Asking a visiting team to play 5 tests in 6 weeks is unprecedented in the sport.

The ECB have their godawful Hundred to promote during August, so their Ashes scheduling means there is no room for any extra days.
If England really cared then they shouldnt give a Test to a dreadful p155-stained hell hole like W@nkfester.

The BBC:-  "As skipper, Cummins looked devoid of inspiration, not helped by half his team trying to get in on the leadership act. Smith huffed around like a man who knew he had not lost in any of his six Tests as an Ashes captain.

Australia's attempt to bounce back from being outplayed at Old Trafford will be aided by the freedom of knowing the Ashes are not on the line at The Oval. The tourists might also be helped by some deflation in an England team whose Ashes dream has died".

As bitter, twisted and ungracious as usual.  Shovelling their normal bitterness in para 1 and giving England an advance excuse for losing the fifth test in para 2.

a draw is part of the game in cricket,effects the toss,tempo of the game etc etc
to the usual loons saying we couild have played today what about if it rained today and tomorrow  do you play wed,or is the rule only one extra day and only for england,when a draw doesnt suit them
with extra time in a day,guaranteed overs in a day,the draw weather apart has already been basically taken out of text cricket,despite a 1000 runs in the game, 25 wkts, without the weather this game could have been over in 3.5 days

Thats what you get with a bunch of lazy english journos who are used to covering soccer.
They turn up to the summer events with no understanding of the sport.

So if its horse racing its all about Frankie.
If its golf its Rory.
Cricket, its Aussie bashing then turn on the home team when they dont win.

Typical tabloid horse manure.

For my money I should imagine that Aus cant wait to get out of here. They will probably play an experimental side for the final test which is after all now a non event.

The bullsh!t piles so high you need wings to fly above it all.
Eng will probably win and then the journos will turn turtle and start declaring them the 'moral victors' or some such carp.

I dont think England did much wrong in this Test. its been a pretty good series, enjoyable as the teams are evenly matched but a little low on Kwality imho

I hope little Reggie the leggie gets a chance at The Oval. Tongue for Anderson. I think Broad might be carrying a niggle.

It was strange seeing an Australian side so spooked.

not a non event for the Aussies at all, thelatarps - a number of the senior pro's have never won a series in England and still haven't at this point...they will be extremely keen to avoid Eng drawing the series as happened last time...retaining ashes for any side with a drawn series is far less enjoyable...

Test cricket is not the pinnacle of the game anymore.
T20 and the world cup is.

trying to think who the current holders of those two titles is...

T20 - England
ODI - New Zealand

old trafford rain almost cost us the series in 2005 as well

the length england batted here is a non issue. scored something like 85 in 11 overs after lunch friday and needed every last run as it turned out. 10/10 performance from england but hard to win in 3 days play on a decent surface

yeh but over a short distance england could have scored 15+ an over if needed ,if ozzies got enough to make them bat again
1 more wkt on fri meant starting off 6 down on sat,would make a big difference mentally to ozzies saving the game

Jul 23, 2023 -- 12:41PM, elisjohn wrote:

stokes and alex hartley

Jul 23, 2023 -- 12:41PM, elisjohn wrote:

stokes and alex hartley

elisjohn • July 23, 2023 6:41 PM BST
stokes and alex hartley  on tms,   " if anyone suggest that we  should have declared earlier on friday, they  dont know anything about the game", what a stupid comment, of course he should have dec sooner

Who actually said that, Stokes or Hartley?

Assuming it's Stokes, pretty dismissive.

After Root was out, with the lead on 34, England scored at 3 an over for the final 11 overs of day 2, after scoring at almost 6 an over beforehand. What's wrong with this scenario?:

Swing for the fences for 5 overs, get the lead up to around 100, declare and get 4 overs at Aus before stumps. There were 76 overs of play on day 3, 30 overs on day 4. Aus would've been in survival mode and if England could've bowled them out in time, would only have been about 200 ahead - chaseable in 20 overs. England take the 2nd new ball at the start of day 3, bowl out Aus within the hour, have a chance to knock off the runs in the last hour and a half.

What's wrong is that Cummins would've been told to bowl Lasagne and Head, refused, and they'd have gone off for bad light. But the decision to score the runs up front wasn't as clear cut as some have made out I think. Hussain and Butcher were adamant that it was right to bat once. Maybe TMS discussed it during the rain but I only heard Agnew and Tufnell suggest in passing that declaring at lunchtime might've made more sense. Maybe Stokes was hoping for extra scoreboard pressure, but Aus know how dangerous England are when chasing. Bazball means England can inject time into a game sure, but only while batting - taking 10 wickets takes as long as ever and the Aus first innings lasted 90 overs.

England take the 2nd new ball at the start of day 4 I meant of course. Don't wanna pile onto Stokes for not declaring, it was still a massive long shot. Just some comms treated it as automatically the way to go, Butcher even said oh, having to bat again takes time out of the game. Was this really a factor, 10 minutes ie 2 overs?

I agree with Stokes and the woman Alex Hartley!

would they have left brookes play around to get a 100 with tail enders if it was bairstow who got out ?

or 99?

joe root told the bbc that they should be continuing to play to 9.30 pm (on day 2 and 3) when there is a high risk of rain as in this case given rain was guaranteed on 4th and 5th day.
there also was a reserve day for a test match between india and australia.
i will repeat what i said earlier. this has been a great series but has been totally ruined by not playing on monday to make up for the time lost due to rain or as root said play some more time on 2nd and 3rd day. it turns test cricket into a total farce. i cant get my head around it. the whole series is ruined........talk about turning heaven into hell for the sake of dumb old rules..........this isnt 1921.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/66289926

Fo,B, Stokes said it to aggers, and Hartley agreed with Stokes in her summoning up , whats worse Hartley added  " as they knew there was going to be no play in last 2 days

This is all very interesting.
The recieved wisdom coming out of the english sports media and quite a lot of english cricket fans seems to be that the Stokes/Bazball revolution is now the high watermark of the game.
That the Aussies were lucky and really ought to be going into the Oval on the verge of being whitewashed but for bad luck, rain and dubious antipodean gamesmanship.

That may or may not be the case but imo Bazball is nothing more than giving the England batting line up, all of whom are more or less T20 and one day sloggers, the licence to do what they want.
For about a decade now the England batting has been decried for an inability to survive for any length of time in test cricket.
Batting collapses happened with enormous regularity.
Seems to me Brendon Baz McCullum has just come in and told them to forget about it, score what they can when they can and beggar the consequences.

Thing is, as I said previous, test cricket is not the pinnacle of the game anymore. Most of the cricket playing nations pay lip service to it. The players have little interest in it, especially Batsmen. Who can blame them when you can earn an exponential amount of dosh playing T20.
So Bazball works against most teams. You go out slog your heart out against a bunch of disinterested West INdians, Sri Lankans etc whose best players will probably be off earning thousands of bucks in the IPL.

Now the problem will come when ENgland play against India and AUstralia. Two teams with a playing pool able to compete, like England, in tests and one days.
This summer has seen England batsmen all contribute more or less under Bazball. But they have lurched from poor decision to poor decision without seemingly a thought for the intricacies of the test match form.
That might be ok at home, against an Aussie side playing under testing circumstances.
But doing it on the road in India this winter will be the true examination of where this England side are going.
And for me I have to say if they play in the subcontinent like they have done this summer, England will be on the end of another defeat. sorry.

rain allday sunday in england, last day of windies v india washed out and looks like rain all day today in sri lanka

agree thelatarps, yes the english batsmen more or less the same which continously failed with the bat and relied solely on their bowlers for ages , showing their weakness in technique etc etc , have been told to gamble, yes it is working but its 20/20 cricket , and remember the 10 or so tests before the ashes  England     in nearly all of  those  were in positions of losing them at certain stages.

1st time poster • July 24, 2023 8:15 PM BST
would they have left brookes play around to get a 100 with tail enders if it was bairstow who got out ?

I'm guessing not. From Bairstow's interview it sounded like the most important thing in the dressing room is the backing the players have from Stokes and McCullum. So JB was left out there to prove a point to the critics of his keeping, and also to the rest of the side. It could be argued that they put the bigger picture Bazball project ahead of the match situation.

thats what i thought FO,B , all about bairstow/stokes sticking 2 fingers up to critrics ,against beaten bowlers who were just waiting for a decl,
as for playing on till 9 o clock it changes whole dynamics of test cricket
new ball
wear and tear on pitch
heavy roller etc
ENG might want test cricket turned in to glorified 5 one day matches in 5 days ,those who love test cricket for the tactics/variables etc,
test cricket already took on board covered pitches, minimum overs in a day,floodlights etc,etc,
conditons,when to to take new ball,pace of game etc all part of test cricket, turning it in to next goal the winner might as well scrap test cricket

on a glorious sunny day at the wacca ,i dont think root,stokes,vaughn will be advocating chris wood starts bowling at 9 in morning till 9 at night against smith.marls,warner etc,etc

yes the english batsmen more or less the same which continously failed with the bat and relied solely on their bowlers for ages , showing their weakness in technique etc etc , have been told to gamble, yes it is working but its 20/20 cricket , and remember the 10 or so tests before the ashes  England     in nearly all of  those  were in positions of losing them at certain stages.

in any competitive series you'd expect to be in the position of losing at times in games...doesn't really matter what the style is if you end up with averages like these against the World Test Champions..

Crawley 55
Root 52
Stokes 51
Bairstow 40
Brooke 38
Duckett 34

in comparison...Australia playing proper cricket (no such thing incidentally)

Kawaja 47
Head 39
Smith 31
Warner 25
Carey 23
Green 20
*Marsh 76 (2 matches)

the suggestion it might struggle away to India or Australia is hardly reason to bin it...the conventional approaches have rarely worked there either...

The recieved wisdom coming out of the english sports media and quite a lot of english cricket fans seems to be that the Stokes/Bazball revolution is now the high watermark of the game

that suggestion from Ltarps is pure nonsense incidentally....

I have some sympathy with thelartarps position

Some fans want Old Trafford dropped because the weather cost us potential wins in 2013 and last week! I want them dropped because it was a sheite show and there were 30 minutes queues for food and the khazi!

brentford, england are averaging around 5 runs per wicket more in the series. 1-2 is a freakish scoreline given how the games have gone. i guess a very low percentage outcome of the realistic possibilities

absolutely mafe'

usually if you outbat and outbowl a team you win the series...and all stats point to them having done so...

though one observation that I do think is fair is that England have enjoyed the slightly better of conditions...nobody ever seems that interested in that aspect when we lose of course...

freakish as in when the 6th/7th wkt,s went down at headingly ,i,d imagine ozzies were favs to go 3 nil up

before old trafford ozzies had won about 70% of the 45 sessions in 1st 3 tests

don't think it would be anywhere near 70% of the sessions to be honest 1tp...

though would take a lot of time to work out...

oz did briefly go favs in the Headingley 4th inns but but not for long at all..

I'm in Dulwich Village, about 3 miles South of the Oval so can provide some fairly accurate weather reports for the last test.
Current forecast is a bit in and out, could be showers Thursday morning and intermittent rain over the weekend is a possibility.

Good man SlippyBue!

brentford, going back to the conditions and the 4 won tosses in particular would say lords was by far the most important and what has been glossed over there amid the controversy and england's batting mistakes was the bowling on day 1. 340/5 i think represents a truly horrible performance in favourable conditions. shouldn't have sniffed 300 if we'd bowled anything like

yep, start of 2nd inns as well there had some nice bowling conditions and didn't really make enough of it...those moments and obviously the 9th wicket partnership for Oz at Edgbaston 2nd inns...probably massive missed opps not to mention of course the number of missed chances in the field through the first 2 games especially....

result at the oval will in many ways still define the series as an Oz win here would rather rubber stamp their retention...finishes 2-2 and there'd be a credible case for saying Australia have rather sneaked the ashes home..

Jul 23, 2023 -- 10:52AM, wondersobright wrote:

Jul 23, 2023 -- 2:02PM, Whisperingdeath wrote:I also think Old Trafford is not fit to be a Test ground. Very poor imho. Queues for toilets and food were over half an hour at times, which, is ridiculous!not enough in the pitches for bowlers either, as lancs will testify this ssnalbeit this is the 1st test draw for a while

test pitch used for the championship match against northants
"9 days" old...600 overs on it
and still a good batting pitch

the run goes on...every red ball game @ OT this ssn drawn