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I will start by saying I am not some Indian or Aussie or who ever fisherman, I am also not a natural pessimist regards England, I am a patriot almost at all costs, but I have to wonder. Has he ever scored important runs under pressure for England? What is the worth of someone who comes in at 300/3 and scores one twenty not out in an innings win. The ton fifty last summer at number three was a very good innings, under pressure, and no one else got a ton, I will give him that,but not much of a return over a seventy plus test career. I vaguely remember a gritty forty in south Africa, but really, what is the point if he virtually never contributes when we are really under pressure. The other top five batsmen have all got far more important runs under pressure than bell. What do others think, despite the hundred average last year If we are gonna have a casualty for this winter,s travails then I would certain ly put bell above Strauss. And I think Morgan is more a man for the moment than bell regardless of any technical doubts (which can be addressed) at test level. In summary, bell is mentally weak, and has been for eight years.
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Token Englishman in the middle order?
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He was our leading run scorer, only a year ago. On top of that, that 150 innings you mentioned equals any innings what KP or strauss has ever done lately, yes strauss is captain but he has produced a lot less then bell with the bat lately, and how about morgan/patel/ bopara you really think that selecting two of them would improve the team? not a chance, Ian Bell is a class act, and is easily good enough to make our middle order.
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that 150 innings you mentioned equals any innings what KP or strauss has ever done lately
I can't think of any 150 innings in history which equals the extraordinary one KP constructed in 40C+ heat in Colombo only last week. Anyway, if you want to know Bell's place in the England set-up, you need to read Kevin Pietersen's Cricket Diary: http://charliegilmourletters.wordpress.com/kevin-pietersens-cricket-diary/ |
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Alright admittedly due to the heat, and the pressure generated by the fact we had failed against spin on numerous occasions before that innings, KPs is better. However, strauss? There is the problem as well of who do you replace him with? Either way in the unlikely even that he was to get dropped, he would play even more games for the bears, so either way I would be happy. I think the better question is why is he not in the ODI set up?
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Day 6
Post-match drinks. We’re all at the hotel bar. Swann turns to the barman and shouts “Oi barman, I’ll have some nuts. Make them KP.” The place falls about into laughter. Not happy. Continue drinking. Five minutes later Strauss says: “Oi KP.” I turn to him. He’s looking at the barman. “Nuts please.” More laughter. S****ing. I see Bell shaking in the corner. Few minutes later I hear his voice shout “Oi KP.” Am livid. Later that night I knock on his door. He answers wearing a leopardskin leotard. I punch him in the face. |
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The greatness of Pietersen's Colombo innings had nothing to do with any supposed pressure on him owing to spin bowling. That myth was laid to rest by the consecutive centuries he had plundered the previous month off Ajmal, Afridi, Rehman and Hafeez.
Pietersen in Colombo elevated himself above not just the humidity which had sapped every other man in that game, but above the match situation itself. He was the definition of different class. |
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I think if you look at his record against left arm spinners, it has a lot to do with it, and we know that was a great innings nobody is debating otherwise, it is should bell be in the team, and so far nobody has convinced me otherwise.
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It's you who brought KP into it by claiming Bell at his best is as good as Pietersen on current form.
jamesyd 13 Apr 12 16:36 He was our leading run scorer, only a year ago. On top of that, that 150 innings you mentioned equals any innings what KP or strauss has ever done lately, You can't make a statement like that in the light of what Pietersen's done this winter vs Pak and SLanka and expect to convince people of Bell's worth in the side. |
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Okay I said one off innings, and our next series is at home, where Bell has performed much better in comparison to KP. Yes KP played well in Asia. however in England it is a different ball game, and we come back to my main point, who do you play instead, because we already have the problem of who bats at 6/7 other then prior. So by dropping Bell, you add another problem to the equation, and Strauss has done nothing lately, i think it is something like 50 innings without a century, anybody else and they would of been gone a long time ago. Cook could easily take the captaincy.
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Well, we're not going to find out who could replace Bell unless he makes way for someone else.
Rather than gift Bell some cheap runs at home to the W Indies this spring, this is the opportunity to ease Ben Stokes or Jos Buttler or Jonny Bairstow into Test cricket. Otherwise you're just rewarding Bell for his failures, leaving potential replacements having to face S Africa or India away for their debuts. Here are Bells's last 10 matches (fifties in bold): Recent matches Bat & Bowl Team Opposition Ground Match Date Scorecard 18 England v Sri Lanka Colombo (PSS) 3 Apr 2012 Test # 2039 52, 13 England v Sri Lanka Galle 26 Mar 2012 Test # 2038 14, 0/34, 11 England XI v SLC Dev XI Colombo (SSC) 20 Mar 2012 First-class 0 England XI v SL Board XI Colombo (RPS) 15 Mar 2012 First-class 5, 10 England v Pakistan Dubai (DSC) 3 Feb 2012 Test # 2034 29, 3 England v Pakistan Abu Dhabi 25 Jan 2012 Test # 2032 0, 4 England v Pakistan Dubai (DSC) 17 Jan 2012 Test # 2030 0, 12* England XI v PCB XI Dubai (GCA) 11 Jan 2012 First-class 3, 39 England XI v ICC Comb XI Dubai (GCA) 7 Jan 2012 First-class 2 England v India Kolkata 25 Oct 2011 ODI # 3210 Here are Strauss's: Bat & Bowl Team Opposition Ground Match Date Scorecard 61, 0 England v Sri Lanka Colombo (PSS) 3 Apr 2012 Test # 2039 26, 27 England v Sri Lanka Galle 26 Mar 2012 Test # 2038 100 England XI v SLC Dev XI Colombo (SSC) 20 Mar 2012 First-class 40 England XI v SL Board XI Colombo (RPS) 15 Mar 2012 First-class 56, 26 England v Pakistan Dubai (DSC) 3 Feb 2012 Test # 2034 11, 32 England v Pakistan Abu Dhabi 25 Jan 2012 Test # 2032 19, 6 England v Pakistan Dubai (DSC) 17 Jan 2012 Test # 2030 3, 62 England XI v PCB XI Dubai (GCA) 11 Jan 2012 First-class 17, 78 England XI v ICC Comb XI Dubai (GCA) 7 Jan 2012 First-class 32, 30 Middlesex v Leics Leicester 12 Sep 2011 First-class If you think Strauss is going to get dropped in favour of Bell, dream on. |
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you listed so many pointless matches, ones with no meaning, and where the batting order would of been changed etc. You do NOT select players becuase of England XI matches. Here are the only stats we need
Strauss 94 matches, 167 innings, 6604 runs, 41.01 average Bell, 74 matches, 125 innings, 5161 runs, 46.49 average So you would drop a test player who has scored over 5000 test runs with an average of over 45? what a fool, not in a million years is that happening, and more to the point his average is much better. So come back with a list what excludes England XI games, where opening is a huge luxury. |
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ian bell deserves his place in the team because all in all the standard of cricket is ****, test cricket is being killed by the iphell, no test side around at the moment that could live with the aussies of 15 yeard ago
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re: batting in 40 degree heat.
Much harder for bowlers to bowl in that heat no? hence more massive individual knocks in hot parts of the world. Good ton last week for sure but against a very average attack on a tiny ground |
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Fair point, Lix. But if the bowlers were tired in that game, no other batsman was able to take advantage in the way Pietersen did.
Mahela 105 off 216 balls, Cook 94 off 278 balls, Pietersen 151 off 165 balls  Day 3 I am the spotlight I was having breakfast with the Sky TV crew. Suddenly Nas starts going off on one. “Hey KP,” he says. “Have you been dyeing your hair again?” “Er no. What are you going on about Nas. At least I have some hair.” The table went silent. Nas slammed down his spoon spraying shreddies everywhere. Freddie Flintoff was covered in it. He got up and walked over to my side of the table. Getting really close into my face he said: “This, this is hair. Look at this. Don’t you ever talk to me about hair again you insignificant piece of ****.” With that he walked off. We all silently ate our breakfasts. From the corner of my eye I could see Bell s****ing. On my way back to my room I called in on him. He was there wearing a pink negligee. He got it all right. |
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I will start by saying I am not some Indian or Aussie or who ever fisherman, I am also not a natural pessimist regards England, I am a patriot almost at all costs, but I have to wonder. Has he ever scored important runs under pressure for England? What is the worth of someone who comes in at 300/3 and scores one twenty not out in an innings win. The ton fifty last summer at number three was a very good innings, under pressure, and no one else got a ton, I will give him that,but not much of a return over a seventy plus test career. I vaguely remember a gritty forty in south Africa, but really, what is the point if he virtually never contributes when we are really under pressure. The other top five batsmen have all got far more important runs under pressure than bell. What do others think, despite the hundred average last year If we are gonna have a casualty for this winter,s travails then I would certain ly put bell above Strauss. And I think Morgan is more a man for the moment than bell regardless of any technical doubts (which can be addressed) at test level. In summary, bell is mentally weak, and has been for eight years.
What a load of tosh. Are you Oirish? Bell is a quality batsman going through a bad patch. Morgan is just not very good. Ian Bell has rescued England on many times in recent years - he demonstrated real mental strength in the 2009-10 series in SA (Durban and Cape Town). |
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Not sure comparing Ian Bell to Kp will help him too much, it's a bit of a pointless debate. Not sure why their are questions over any of the top 5. England are world number 1's, all of their top 5 apart from maybe strauss have scored runs consistantly, at decent averages, with big Innings contributions from all of them at some point over the last 2 years.
Last 2 years Cook 2046 Ave 58 HS 294 Trott 1833 Ave 59 HS 226 KP 1580 Ave 49 HS 227 Bell 1443 Ave 62 HS 235 Strauss 1168 Ave 32.44 HS 110 Strauss has done a great job as captain in terms of results and therefor deserves at least this summer if not the winter as well to keep his place in the side. Any Argument made about dropping any of the otehr 4 is completely and utterly absurd. Bells Innings in SA 3 winters ago, especially the 150 that won us the game and allowed us to draw the series away. Was one of the best Test match Innings any of these England players have played. Add to that his performance in the ashes and against India last summer and think we can all safely say that the lad is a Test class batsman. And the IPL hasn't taken anything away from test cricket has nobody been watching the test matches we've had over the last 6 months???!!! |
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This thread assumes that Bell's performance is dependant on the score when he comes in which I dont think is neccesarily the case. If he comes in at 30-3 and gets out for a low score was that due to pressure or just the fact that he got out to a good ball. He could have got that same ball had he came in at 300-3 or any other score. However if he comes in at 30-3 its more likely that is facing a strong or in form bowling attack or a difficult pitch than if he comes in at 300-3. It is not really his fault if he happens to be in form at the same time as the other batsmen. Furthermore if he were an opener then you couldnt really accuse him of failing when under pressure as he would always come in at 0-0 therefore Struass, Cook and Trott are immune to this type of critisism. In Pakistan all of Englands batsman underperformed therefore you could accuse all of them of failing "under pressure" on this basis.
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In Pakistan Strauss, cook and trott did poorly, though they held their own in comparison to the pakistanis generally. Kp, Morgan and bell were awful, the only player that performed miserably in both series was bell. And I don't think his decent series in safrica two years ago or his ton fifty last summer v India is much of a return in pressure situations. Everyone else, pound for pound, in the top five well out performs bell in pressure situations. I realize it is a subjective thing, but from what I've seen he just doesn't cut it when under pressure, ok if you think he is worth it because he does get runs in big wins, but is that really all you expect from a player of his quality/class? Is it really that hard to say it out loud.... "Ian bell is a poor player under pressure"
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I think you might have to take into consideration that the games were big wins because Bell scored runs, you can not seperate his performances in victories from the victories. Having watched England bat in the 90's i can't believe we're having a conversation about the merits of a player who over the last 2 years has scored 1443 runs at an average of 62 with a high score of 235 in a team that has lost just one series and currently sits at number 1 in the world. And people say the English public don't like winners.
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Not doubting his ability to score runs during the period of English supremacy dougy. Do you back him to get runs in a pressure situation next summer v saffers? I reckon he'll score a hatfull v win dies and not score when it matters v saffers.
I'm not necessarily saying he should be dropped, but is it beyond the capabilities of some people on here to admit that he is mentally weak? Vs sir lank, a modest attack, I just knew he wouldn't get runs each time he came in, because they were high pressure situations. |
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Last Time Ian Bell played this saffer side in England, a team that back then included Morkel and steyn he scored 332 runs in 4 test matches at an average of 47.42.
He has only ever faced a Saffer attack that has had stey in it his over all average against that attack, considered by many as the best in test cricket, is 46.07 HS 199 2 tons. He averages 29 v Morkel, 39 v kallis and 87 v steyn. His runs at the oval in 09, his runs away in SA and his runs away in aus have all led to england winning or drawing key series. People read an awful lot into body language. Offer Ian bell to any test team in the world to bat in your top 5 and they'd snap your hand off. |
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Soft as sh1te mentally but the best we've got at 5 right now. Good knock in Durban yeah, but he came in at 297/4...
Doesnt make runs in pressure situations generally. |
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what about top scoring with 72 (i think) in the first inns of the decisive ashes test in 2009 on that oval dustbowl ? a pretty important knock under pressure don't you think
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yeah mafeking - good point and what about 78 off 213 balls in capetown 2010 to help england secure a draw.
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So were up to three innings now.
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have to agree completely with you rob-dylan,you summed Bell up perfectly.i could write a book about this underachiever but you summed him up quite well actually.
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The following statistics totally prove you wrong about Bell Rob Dylan
Averages in losing test matches Bradman 43.27 Bell 28.93 Pietersen 28.78 Trott 27.21 Strauss 26.33 Cook 24.75 This suggests that Bell is Englands best batsman under pressure whereas Cook is the worst. So this thread should be about Cook but as an opening batsman he never comes in with his team 50-3 |
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Well, bell has, at times, looked England's best batsmen, but now he goes through periods of indifferent form, before discovering his contact once again to concrete his position in the middle order.
IPL live |
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Ian Bell fails as Jonathan Trott hits century for Warwickshire
County Championship Division One, Hove Close, day one: Sussex v Warwickshire 281-5 Warwicks 2pts, Sussex 1pt Match scorecard Jonathan Trott hit an unbeaten century but England team-mate Ian Bell was out for a duck as Warwickshire enjoyed the better of day one against Sussex. Bell lasted only seven balls before he was bowled by James Anyon. |
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well he must be rubbish then
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He certainly is right now, and has been for the last 6 months.
He was very good very often for a long time before then. But after the events of the winter, and his disastrous return to County cricket (18 and 16 in Warks' victory over Lancs, followed by the current duck), surely at some point you have to question his right to continue playing at Test level right now. |
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He's a blatant fkin bottler.
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Bell just booked his place in the england side for the summer
105 no in a score of 195-7 |
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Yeah probably the 2nd best knock of the season after Chris Read's on what looks like another tricky early season pitch.
How his position was in any question was a joke anyway, as has been pointed out bellow he's averaged over 60 in test matches in the last 2 years, you know what they say about form and class. |
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his position was never in any danger anyway. england give batsmen a long run when out of form. cook and strauss have both had lean runs lasting a year or longer. bell's amounts to 5 test matches so far. arguably he was the number 1 batsman in the world in 2011
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do we reckon they will be patient with strauss
his current record is pretty bad and with cook waiting in the background he could be on borrowed time. they are unlikely to change much before the South Africans arrive but he needs a score (or two) to be captain after this summer imo |
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Given that there has to be a new no 6 because of dropping Morgan (and doubt Patel gets a chance outside sub-continent), would be surprised if Strauss is under any threat. England unlikely to bring two new batsmen in at the same time. And FWIW I agree with the posters below, Bell was never going to get dropped for the next test.
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Best short leg in the world. Only problem is that for some reason (back?) Cook fields there instead.
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Agreed, always assumed it because Cook is not great anywhere else whereas Bell can field well in any position.
Presumably Cook will move when he's captain, will be interesting if Bell goes back. Not sure England always optimise their fielders, for example, Trott is quite slow in the outfield (albeit quick enough to run out Oz openers), but is an excellent slip fielder. Think I've only seen him in the slips once for England. |