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From Italy to Australia, critics have accused a “complacent” British government of “massively underestimating” the gravity of the coronavirus crisis after the UK reported the highest death toll in Europe.
While Rai Uno, the Italian state broadcaster’s flagship channel, gave prominent play to the news that Britain had recorded “more than 32,000 deaths, the highest total in Europe exceeding even Italy”, the Corriere della Serra daily went a good way further.
The situation in the UK was “like a nightmare from which you cannot awake, but in which you landed because of your own fault or stupidity”, the influential liberal-conservative paper said, adding that Britain seemed “a prisoner of itself”.
The country that was “the most reluctant in Europe to impose a lockdown has become the most cautious to start reopening”, with public opinion frightened of the consequences and Boris Johnson eager to avoid breaking Italy’s “sad record”.
Experts have warned against direct international comparisons of Covid-19 death tolls, saying different counting methods and many other factors make such exercises unreliable and it may take months if not years to draw firm conclusions.
However, Beppe Severgnini, an opinion writer on Corriere della Sera, said it seemed clear Britain had “lost the advantage that fate and Italy gave it – for example, the first two weeks of the outbreak in Italy when it was obvious the virus was spreading”.
The British government “did not pay enough attention to what was happening here, while Germany responded very well”, Severgnini said. “The two great British virtues – understatement and grace under fire – have turned out to not be a blessing.”
He said the UK was served neither by “a very weak cabinet” nor Johnson’s character: “He’s not Trump, though there is something similar in their approaches, but in this kind of challenge you need to really work hard on details. He’s not a details person.”
Beyond Italy – where the Covid-19 death toll, which does not include suspected cases, is just over 29,000 – German commentators were also critical. Britain has emerged as Europe’s “problem child” of the Covid-19 crisis, the DPA news agency’s London correspondent Christoph Meyer wrote.
“Only a few weeks ago, Britain had the reputation of a country in which the coronavirus was only spreading cautiously,” Meyer wrote in an opinion piece published in several newspapers in Germany and Austria.
“Politicians were already slapping each other on their backs and praising the health system, which was better prepared for the pandemic than any other country in the world. But that has quickly revealed itself to be a fallacy … There are now many signs that the government in London massively underestimated the pandemic.”
In a piece this week drawing on the British prime minister’s frequent deployment of classical allusions, the London correspondent of Spain’s left-leaning El País queried suggestions that the prime minister was some latter-day Odysseus.
“The conservative press tries to present Johnson as a man of reborn wisdom”, whose experience of Covid-19 had led him to “lash himself to the mast to resist the siren calls” of those demanding the lockdown be lifted soon, wrote Rafa de Miguel.
“In fact, it’s far from clear whether such determination is the fruit of careful calculation – or the result of simply closing one’s eyes when there’s no other option.”
Officials in Greece, which has been widely praised for its handling of the pandemic, have watched London’s handling of the crisis with disbelief, with epidemiologists also criticising the UK government’s initial embrace of a “herd immunity” policy.
The progressive daily Ethnos described Johnson as “more dangerous than coronavirus”, saying one of the crisis’s greatest tragedies was that “incompetent leaders” such as Johnson and Donald Trump were “at the helm at a time of such emergency”.
Before changing tack, Johnson “had gone out and essentially asked Britons … to accept death”, wrote the columnist Giorgos Skafidas.
Irish commentators also expressed dismay at the UK’s record. “Ministers of slim talent have bumbled through daily briefings and now big business-Conservative donors are impatient to reverse a shutdown so contrary to Brexiteer dreams,” Fionnuala O’Connor wrote in the broadly nationalist Irish News.
“Boris Johnson needs all his showman’s tricks now to sell the phasing out of a lockdown which was less than effective, at least in part, because of his stubborn libertarianism.”
Outside Europe, criticism has been strongest in Australia and New Zealand, both of which imposed strict, early lockdowns and have contained their outbreaks. Scott Morrison, the Australian prime minister, said no country that had pursued herd immunity had achieved it, describing the strategy as a “death sentence”.
David Hunter, an Australian-educated professor of epidemiology and medicine at Oxford University, told the conservative Sydney Morning Herald the British response was “not a model to follow. It has one of the worst epidemics in Europe and the world … Some aspects of the response have almost certainly contributed to the high mortality”.
Hunter particularly criticised the British decision – in contrast to Australia and New Zealand – not to close its borders early. Mike Rann, a former Australian high commissioner to Britain, told the paper Britain had “handled the earliest stages negligently”, lamenting “a shambles of mixed messaging, poor organisation and a complacent attitude that what was happening in Italy wouldn’t happen here”.
While Rai Uno, the Italian state broadcaster’s flagship channel, gave prominent play to the news that Britain had recorded “more than 32,000 deaths, the highest total in Europe exceeding even Italy”, the Corriere della Serra daily went a good way further.
The situation in the UK was “like a nightmare from which you cannot awake, but in which you landed because of your own fault or stupidity”, the influential liberal-conservative paper said, adding that Britain seemed “a prisoner of itself”.
The country that was “the most reluctant in Europe to impose a lockdown has become the most cautious to start reopening”, with public opinion frightened of the consequences and Boris Johnson eager to avoid breaking Italy’s “sad record”.
Experts have warned against direct international comparisons of Covid-19 death tolls, saying different counting methods and many other factors make such exercises unreliable and it may take months if not years to draw firm conclusions.
However, Beppe Severgnini, an opinion writer on Corriere della Sera, said it seemed clear Britain had “lost the advantage that fate and Italy gave it – for example, the first two weeks of the outbreak in Italy when it was obvious the virus was spreading”.
The British government “did not pay enough attention to what was happening here, while Germany responded very well”, Severgnini said. “The two great British virtues – understatement and grace under fire – have turned out to not be a blessing.”
He said the UK was served neither by “a very weak cabinet” nor Johnson’s character: “He’s not Trump, though there is something similar in their approaches, but in this kind of challenge you need to really work hard on details. He’s not a details person.”
Beyond Italy – where the Covid-19 death toll, which does not include suspected cases, is just over 29,000 – German commentators were also critical. Britain has emerged as Europe’s “problem child” of the Covid-19 crisis, the DPA news agency’s London correspondent Christoph Meyer wrote.
“Only a few weeks ago, Britain had the reputation of a country in which the coronavirus was only spreading cautiously,” Meyer wrote in an opinion piece published in several newspapers in Germany and Austria.
“Politicians were already slapping each other on their backs and praising the health system, which was better prepared for the pandemic than any other country in the world. But that has quickly revealed itself to be a fallacy … There are now many signs that the government in London massively underestimated the pandemic.”
In a piece this week drawing on the British prime minister’s frequent deployment of classical allusions, the London correspondent of Spain’s left-leaning El País queried suggestions that the prime minister was some latter-day Odysseus.
“The conservative press tries to present Johnson as a man of reborn wisdom”, whose experience of Covid-19 had led him to “lash himself to the mast to resist the siren calls” of those demanding the lockdown be lifted soon, wrote Rafa de Miguel.
“In fact, it’s far from clear whether such determination is the fruit of careful calculation – or the result of simply closing one’s eyes when there’s no other option.”
Officials in Greece, which has been widely praised for its handling of the pandemic, have watched London’s handling of the crisis with disbelief, with epidemiologists also criticising the UK government’s initial embrace of a “herd immunity” policy.
The progressive daily Ethnos described Johnson as “more dangerous than coronavirus”, saying one of the crisis’s greatest tragedies was that “incompetent leaders” such as Johnson and Donald Trump were “at the helm at a time of such emergency”.
Before changing tack, Johnson “had gone out and essentially asked Britons … to accept death”, wrote the columnist Giorgos Skafidas.
Irish commentators also expressed dismay at the UK’s record. “Ministers of slim talent have bumbled through daily briefings and now big business-Conservative donors are impatient to reverse a shutdown so contrary to Brexiteer dreams,” Fionnuala O’Connor wrote in the broadly nationalist Irish News.
“Boris Johnson needs all his showman’s tricks now to sell the phasing out of a lockdown which was less than effective, at least in part, because of his stubborn libertarianism.”
Outside Europe, criticism has been strongest in Australia and New Zealand, both of which imposed strict, early lockdowns and have contained their outbreaks. Scott Morrison, the Australian prime minister, said no country that had pursued herd immunity had achieved it, describing the strategy as a “death sentence”.
David Hunter, an Australian-educated professor of epidemiology and medicine at Oxford University, told the conservative Sydney Morning Herald the British response was “not a model to follow. It has one of the worst epidemics in Europe and the world … Some aspects of the response have almost certainly contributed to the high mortality”.
Hunter particularly criticised the British decision – in contrast to Australia and New Zealand – not to close its borders early. Mike Rann, a former Australian high commissioner to Britain, told the paper Britain had “handled the earliest stages negligently”, lamenting “a shambles of mixed messaging, poor organisation and a complacent attitude that what was happening in Italy wouldn’t happen here”.
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Derek Jameson (29 November 1929 – 12 September 2012) was an English tabloid journalist and broadcaster.
Beginning his career in the media at the lowest possible level in 1944 at Reuters, he worked his way up to become the editor of several British tabloid newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s. Later, he was a regular broadcaster on BBC Radio 2 for nearly a decade and a half, including an on-air partnership with Ellen, his third wife, and he became a familiar television personality.
He was described, when his profile was at its highest, as "the second most famous man in Britain - after Prince Charles" by Auberon Waugh.
In 1984 he presented Do They Mean Us? a television series for BBC 2 which according to his Scotsman obituary was "a decidedly patriotic examination of foreign television networks’ British coverage". On the show, Jameson had the catchphrase; "Do they mean us? They surely do!"
Beginning his career in the media at the lowest possible level in 1944 at Reuters, he worked his way up to become the editor of several British tabloid newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s. Later, he was a regular broadcaster on BBC Radio 2 for nearly a decade and a half, including an on-air partnership with Ellen, his third wife, and he became a familiar television personality.
He was described, when his profile was at its highest, as "the second most famous man in Britain - after Prince Charles" by Auberon Waugh.
In 1984 he presented Do They Mean Us? a television series for BBC 2 which according to his Scotsman obituary was "a decidedly patriotic examination of foreign television networks’ British coverage". On the show, Jameson had the catchphrase; "Do they mean us? They surely do!"
what do they have to say about Sweden ?
Maybe if the World had Told us that Infected fookers were coming into the Country from December last year , We may have b
een a little more prepared , Moving forward the Rest of the World may find it a little harder to enter the UK post Virus ,So out of the Tragedy and disaster ,some small good will prevail ...
een a little more prepared , Moving forward the Rest of the World may find it a little harder to enter the UK post Virus ,So out of the Tragedy and disaster ,some small good will prevail ...
The UK has suffered due its Liberal and Lax Vetting of who or what has been entering , That will soon be Kyboshed , we cannot be too careful after the Disaster we have suffered .. HTH.
which countries have we confounded, inspired by out approach then, exempelar to the world
Are deaths outside hospital added by Italy & Spain to the same extent ours are ?
in contrast to Australia and New Zealand – not to close its borders 
Their fooking Borders are Never fooking open , Racist immigration Policies being the Key
You cannot m@ke these C@nts up
Their fooking Borders are Never fooking open , Racist immigration Policies being the Key
You cannot m@ke these C@nts up
I can't argue against much of the opening post,some hard truths in it.
Australia You cannot fooking make it up ,Honestly
Most of the fooking country has Dingos and fook all else
Most of the fooking country has Dingos and fook all else
Was talking to me Cousin Lives in Ballyfermit, PA , they are not too Happy with Veruka and his testing business over there , what are you doing 4000 a day ??
Italy told them, begged them, they knew better as Tories, now thousands are unnecessarily dead.............thats the simple the truth
what about your testing Pecker hows it Going ?? 4000 a day Would have thought you would be well above that , any comments about that ?? Is Veruker a Tory ??
How would they have stopped these extra thousands Dying , Bar starting to test in January ??
What difference would a few more thousand tests have made ,We dont have millions of test kits stock
piled , do you think hancock has a stock pile in his shed ??
What difference would a few more thousand tests have made ,We dont have millions of test kits stock
piled , do you think hancock has a stock pile in his shed ??
May 6, 2020 -- 9:03PM, peckerdunne wrote:
Italy told them, begged them, they knew better as Tories, now thousands are unnecessarily dead.............thats the simple the truth
Nah. If we'd locked down same day as Italy we would still have caught them up.
Don't think testing as like it is not much good,as PeckerD said on other thread if not done at same time a bit pointless except it gives clearance to key workers and just gives a broad idea of the overall state imo Casemoney.
Yes pecker..I can still see that Italian doctor outside a hospital in all his gear screaming at the camera that "Its coming to you..its coming to you! please act NOw!"
And being patronized by one of our muppetts,think it was on ch4 catatrophic will go down in history..
WE could have Locked down 2 weeks earlier do you really
think that would have stopped this Disaster ???
I doubt it , as stated else where we have been on full LOCKDOWN where I am for 3 weeks it
appears to have stopped sweet F.A it is sweeping north across the UK ........... Unstoppable
And i am beginning to even Question this Lockdown Policy , the hospitals are coping that was
the main objective , What difference will banging every one up for another month Make ??????
Nicola knows there was a Slight change in her Outlook today Regarding the Lifting of restrictions
Shes not my cup of Tea but she is nobodys fool ........
think that would have stopped this Disaster ???
I doubt it , as stated else where we have been on full LOCKDOWN where I am for 3 weeks it
appears to have stopped sweet F.A it is sweeping north across the UK ........... Unstoppable
And i am beginning to even Question this Lockdown Policy , the hospitals are coping that was
the main objective , What difference will banging every one up for another month Make ??????
Nicola knows there was a Slight change in her Outlook today Regarding the Lifting of restrictions
Shes not my cup of Tea but she is nobodys fool ........
I think it would greatly helped (locking down 2 weeks early),it would have stopped a lot of cases,the resourses could have been used towards care homes,more PPE would be available with less cases.maybe even masks could have been made mandatory for the public outdoors?
It went too far, exponential the key word.
It went too far, exponential the key word.
IF ANYTHING testing should have started north of the Midlands after the Kick off there following London , That could have with less people to test , Testing in Scotland would have been of Massive Value and Wales , Bit late Testing in Places where probably 20 % of the community have it .....
How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?
There are areas of the UK that had big outbreaks on lockdown day. And comparable areas that had hardly any cases, they were '2 weeks behind' the bad areas.
They locked down same day. Does it stop them catching up ? No, it makes no difference.
So why wouldn't we have caught Italy
They locked down same day. Does it stop them catching up ? No, it makes no difference.
So why wouldn't we have caught Italy
May 6, 2020 -- 9:27PM, Angoose wrote:
How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?
We don't know, but in places where everyone has been tested 15-20% seems top be the minimum.
Care homes a Massive Miss Pa , deffo needs looking into , But 16 died in a care home near me 3 weeks ago , Then I stated the only reason that has happened is that the Virus is rife in the Community with people showing little or no symptoms ........
sadly I think I may have been right ..
sadly I think I may have been right ..
The results of hundreds of thousands of coronavirus tests carried out at privately run drive-through centres in England have not yet been shared with GPs or local authorities, who complain they have “no idea” where local disease clusters are.
GPs told the Guardian they had been “totally left out of the conversation” after the government said it was still “working on a technical solution” to get Covid-19 test results into individual GP records in England, having promised to do so weeks ago.
Meanwhile, the chief medical officer for England, Prof Chris Whitty, apologised to local health leaders who have not yet received any detailed data from “pillar two” tests conducted by the private firm Deloitte over the past month. These now form the majority of tests being carried out each day, either at drive-through testing centres or via the post.
During a conference call on Wednesday with directors of public health at local authorities across England, the government’s national coordinator of the UK coronavirus testing programme, Prof John Newton, also apologised for not yet sharing the detailed data. He said there had been “data quality issues”.
Newton admitted that the Deloitte tests did not yet ask people for their ethnicity or whether they worked in health or social care – an oversight described by one director of public health on the call as “really disappointing”. People of colour and healthcare workers and those working in care homes are known to have much higher incidences of the disease.
GPs told the Guardian they had been “totally left out of the conversation” after the government said it was still “working on a technical solution” to get Covid-19 test results into individual GP records in England, having promised to do so weeks ago.
Meanwhile, the chief medical officer for England, Prof Chris Whitty, apologised to local health leaders who have not yet received any detailed data from “pillar two” tests conducted by the private firm Deloitte over the past month. These now form the majority of tests being carried out each day, either at drive-through testing centres or via the post.
During a conference call on Wednesday with directors of public health at local authorities across England, the government’s national coordinator of the UK coronavirus testing programme, Prof John Newton, also apologised for not yet sharing the detailed data. He said there had been “data quality issues”.
Newton admitted that the Deloitte tests did not yet ask people for their ethnicity or whether they worked in health or social care – an oversight described by one director of public health on the call as “really disappointing”. People of colour and healthcare workers and those working in care homes are known to have much higher incidences of the disease.
May 6, 2020 -- 9:30PM, tobermory wrote:
May 6, 2020 -- 8:27PM, Angoose wrote:How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?We don't know, but in places where everyone has been tested 15-20% seems top be the minimum.
Where are these places where everyone has been tested ?
How do you use that information to help you determine the current situation in Gateshead ?
Are any of us in the least surprised by this incompetent mess?
Prisons? you are joking,they don't even get called a "case" just suspected,i don't even think care homes have a fair percentage done despite promises made in early April,15th April,23rd April and now.....
May 6, 2020 -- 9:35PM, Angoose wrote:
How do you use that information to help you determine the current situation in Gateshead ?
To find out you test everyone in Gateshead. I am not saying not to test. You queried why we know 20% have had it already. I said we don't know but it seems a reasonable guess based on studies.
May 6, 2020 -- 9:39PM, lapsy pa wrote:
Prisons? you are joking,they don't even get called a "case" just suspected,i don't even think care homes have a fair percentage done despite promises made in early April,15th April,23rd April and now.....
Inside Trader posted some results from testing in US prisons. The info was not totally complete but the one that gave enough figures to work out the infection rate had over 2,000 prisoners tested and 88% positive.
There are active studies going on at the moment in the UK with sample groups that are seeking to determine the status in the UK community.
No need to guess with what has been reported from a US prison and try to apply that to a significantly different environment.
The sample sizes of such studies are relatively small, along the lines of opinion polls.
No need to guess with what has been reported from a US prison and try to apply that to a significantly different environment.
The sample sizes of such studies are relatively small, along the lines of opinion polls.
I saw the US one,quite a few,last i seen in UK went back to mid April from memory and 19 deaths(just prisoners),i posted that at the time.
I believe every cloud has a silver lining. The UK were virtually untouched by SARS, but post Cpvid-19 the non-procurement of sufficient PPE and health equipment, and a slowness in closing our borders to those coming in from China (originator of SARS too) and its neighbours will never be repeated again.
I'd expect another repeat of today's scenario by China (SARS was in 2003) in the next couple of decades (again) unless the wet market there is banned and made illegal or highly regulated otherwise it's 1.000000000000000001 another cousin of Covid-19 will emanate from China again to terrorise the rest of the world.
I'd expect another repeat of today's scenario by China (SARS was in 2003) in the next couple of decades (again) unless the wet market there is banned and made illegal or highly regulated otherwise it's 1.000000000000000001 another cousin of Covid-19 will emanate from China again to terrorise the rest of the world.
There were only around 8k cases of SARS in 2002/3, spread over 28 countries, and resulting in 774 deaths, or 9.6% of those known to be infected.
The vast majority of activities undertaken at a "wet market" pose no risk in regard to an outbreak of a coronavirus such as SARS.
It is the small number of activities with live wild animals that creates the risk. Ensure that these activities are curtailed.
It is the small number of activities with live wild animals that creates the risk. Ensure that these activities are curtailed.
"These facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.
Measures to flatten the curve might have an effect, but a lockdown only pushes the severe cases into the future —it will not prevent them."
Full article here...
www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext
Measures to flatten the curve might have an effect, but a lockdown only pushes the severe cases into the future —it will not prevent them."
Full article here...
www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext
Problem is lux, there are more scientific papers expressing more different opinions on this topic than there are scientists 
We won won
They just jealous
Us and the yanks led the way they should look at this and become more humble
https://youtu.be/o3Lvej86sVY
They just jealous
Us and the yanks led the way they should look at this and become more humble
https://youtu.be/o3Lvej86sVY
Like Neil Soros Ferguson, you crack me up. Just a lemming.
https://youtu.be/04854XqcfCY
UK government playing this at the full parliament sitting
They did a better job murdering the elderly and the sick
UK government playing this at the full parliament sitting
They did a better job murdering the elderly and the sick
Canna compete with the yanks, sheer number advantage, and just like the Olympics they always mop up the rubbish medals giving us nae chance
The Australians were about to start the Australian GP on March 15th, only McClaren pulling out made them cancel.
absurd to suggest locking down say a week earlier would have made any difference - even Italy and spain didn't go for full lockdown until nearly mid march. pretty clear the virus was already deeply embedded here in densely populated areas long before that
Why bother sending for the fire brigade once your house has caught fire 
cos it would have been much worse if left to spread completely unchecked. we already have several massive disadvantages to other major European nations - about half the area of germany, spain and france and London is by a million miles the biggest city in western Europe
a lot of aftertiming going on. for example I last went to football in england on march 4 and I didn't think twice about going. there wasn't even then the slightest thought then all sport would be called off indefinitely just over a week later
it escalated incredibly quickly. a week or two advantage over the likes of Italy and spain not much use when the incubation period can be much longer than that
a lot of aftertiming going on. for example I last went to football in england on march 4 and I didn't think twice about going. there wasn't even then the slightest thought then all sport would be called off indefinitely just over a week later
it escalated incredibly quickly. a week or two advantage over the likes of Italy and spain not much use when the incubation period can be much longer than that
THE BIGGEST FAILURE IN A GENERATION,WHERE DID IT GO SO WRONG
Aa the good ship Brexit ,full to the gunnels with ceramic teapots, prepares to leave port as a world leader,the uk government is been mocked, pitied ,throughout the world,
even the prees conference getting mocked ,laughed at jennrick,nurse paddy getting absolutely peltered even by our own right wing press.lying,disinformation,self praise
Aa the good ship Brexit ,full to the gunnels with ceramic teapots, prepares to leave port as a world leader,the uk government is been mocked, pitied ,throughout the world,
even the prees conference getting mocked ,laughed at jennrick,nurse paddy getting absolutely peltered even by our own right wing press.lying,disinformation,self praise
too much narrow thinking, pure obsession with corona virus 'related' deaths only. The total figure is never challenged or dissected properly, what is the real number, where is the proper breakdowns, why is it reported as related deaths? Either someone has died from the virus or they haven't, either the virus was likely to have been the main cause or not, how many have died had serious health issues already, how many didn't, the total death numbers are based on everyone who has died whilst having tested positive for it, that means nothing, you need real numbers. Also need an investigation into the number of DNR forms handed out to the elderly, according to ageuk many were pressurised into signing them, that could also inflate numbers.
All that aside, many people are suffering badly from isolation, why is that not been taking into account, economic, mental, emotional...that will all lead to increased rates of suicide, alcohol and drug consumption, mental heath admission, dying of loneliness especially for the elderly, domestic abuse etc.
All that aside, many people are suffering badly from isolation, why is that not been taking into account, economic, mental, emotional...that will all lead to increased rates of suicide, alcohol and drug consumption, mental heath admission, dying of loneliness especially for the elderly, domestic abuse etc.
suicide,alcohol,drugs,mental health,etc etc to quote the knucklegragger,s about 20,00 hospital deaths ago,they,ll have died sometime anyway
May 7, 2020 -- 2:13PM, mafeking wrote:
cos it would have been much worse if left to spread completely unchecked. we already have several massive disadvantages to other major European nations - about half the area of germany, spain and france and London is by a million miles the biggest city in western Europea lot of aftertiming going on. for example I last went to football in england on march 4 and I didn't think twice about going. there wasn't even then the slightest thought then all sport would be called off indefinitely just over a week laterit escalated incredibly quickly. a week or two advantage over the likes of Italy and spain not much use when the incubation period can be much longer than that
So lockdown is a good idea after all, but locking down earlier is not
If a horse breaks slowly from the stalls, should it wait until the others have reached the one furlong pole before it starts to give chase ?
https://twitter.com/docrussjackson/status/1258391597089263618/photo/1
probably over 500 deaths again today in all settings maybe 600,cummings rewriting another grapgh for nurse paddy to show Italy pulling away again,amazing what the tory,s can do with a grtaph
angoose you seriously suggesting the govt should have locked down way before the likes of Italy and spain when there were no deaths and a handful of cases ?
politically just not possible. the media would have gone bananas
politically just not possible. the media would have gone bananas
Mafeking,plenty of pictures in the media showing tubes packed like sardines,supermarkets rammed.planes flying in,Care homes allowing visitors on the 21st of March, is that what you are ok with?
May 7, 2020 -- 3:13PM, mafeking wrote:
angoose you seriously suggesting the govt should have locked down way before the likes of Italy and spain when there were no deaths and a handful of cases ?politically just not possible. the media would have gone bananas
Italy went in to lockdown on 9 March, Spain on 14 March.
We could see what was happening in both of these countries, we were able to listen to their warnings, we chose to go ahead with Cheltenham, going in to lockdown on 23 March only after sporting bodies and the public had already begun to take that decision.
As for the media, I would like to think that the government are not relying on their opinion of the how the media may react prior to arriving at crucial decisoons.
no british government ever of any colour would have shut down the economy more than a handful of days earlier than march 23
you can argue about the likes of Cheltenham. personally didn't make sense to me that Ireland called off the rugby cos of a handful of Italian rugby fans (who probably mostly travelled over anyway) yet they were prepared to let 1000s of Irishmen make the annual pilgrimage to the festival
you can argue about the likes of Cheltenham. personally didn't make sense to me that Ireland called off the rugby cos of a handful of Italian rugby fans (who probably mostly travelled over anyway) yet they were prepared to let 1000s of Irishmen make the annual pilgrimage to the festival
There must have been more deaths biot accounted for before March if this virus was here to any extent in January.
We were told we had 'exceptional testing capability and expertise' and we were 'fully geared up for a pandemic'
Again with an apolitical hat on (this would have been exactly the same with a labour govt IMO) that's absolute horsesh1t!
We were told we had 'exceptional testing capability and expertise' and we were 'fully geared up for a pandemic'
Again with an apolitical hat on (this would have been exactly the same with a labour govt IMO) that's absolute horsesh1t!
"no british government ever of any colour would have shut down the economy more than a handful of days earlier than march 23"
A handful of days would've made a big difference. Rory Stewart was urging lockdown on the 11th March and on Sadiq Khan to take action in London. Should also be noted we've had a less severe lockdown than Italy, Spain and France.
A handful of days would've made a big difference. Rory Stewart was urging lockdown on the 11th March and on Sadiq Khan to take action in London. Should also be noted we've had a less severe lockdown than Italy, Spain and France.
Personally, I don't think, had we entered lockdown on the 11th of Match instead of the 23rd, the governement would be facing the criticism from home and abroad, that it is now.
And imo we'd be looking at half the death figures or less, and already be making plans for the resumption of football and racing. But heyho we were too fecking slow.
Starmer correctly, and gently, made the point that the government has been too slow to act on everything to do with covid. I honestly can't think of one thing the government did on time that was correct; if you start even as late as Cheltenham and Anfield, procuring PPE, ventilators, lockdown, building new hospitals, care homes, public transport, arrivals by planes. Is there anything they got correct?
A 2 week earlier lockdown would not have stopped us reaching Italy's numbers. Maybe we wouldn't have got there yet, but we would eventually. Lockdown just spreads the cases over time.
Belgium locked down a week before we did and had no problem getting to Italy levels.
The '2 weeks behind Italy' mantra, the idea that, locking down on the same day as Italy when we had a small outbreak and they had a big one, would have kept us far behind them, is destroyed by looking at cases within the UK.
Plenty of areas with big outbreaks on March 23rd (London boroughs). Plenty of towns elsewhere with comparable populations and almost zero cases. They were '2 weeks behind London' (maybe 3), so surely they 'locked down in time' and would never reach London levels ??? Well, they are not 2 weeks behind London anymore to say the least
Belgium locked down a week before we did and had no problem getting to Italy levels.
The '2 weeks behind Italy' mantra, the idea that, locking down on the same day as Italy when we had a small outbreak and they had a big one, would have kept us far behind them, is destroyed by looking at cases within the UK.
Plenty of areas with big outbreaks on March 23rd (London boroughs). Plenty of towns elsewhere with comparable populations and almost zero cases. They were '2 weeks behind London' (maybe 3), so surely they 'locked down in time' and would never reach London levels ??? Well, they are not 2 weeks behind London anymore to say the least
no point in argueing about us and italy.2 wrongs never made a right.
tobermory • May 7, 2020 6:41 PM BST
A 2 week earlier lockdown would not have stopped us reaching Italy's numbers. Maybe we wouldn't have got there yet, but we would eventually. Lockdown just spreads the cases over time.
Not sure if that's a piss take or not. Assuming it's not. How on earth do you come to the conclusion that lockdown just spreads the cases over time?
A 2 week earlier lockdown would not have stopped us reaching Italy's numbers. Maybe we wouldn't have got there yet, but we would eventually. Lockdown just spreads the cases over time.
Not sure if that's a piss take or not. Assuming it's not. How on earth do you come to the conclusion that lockdown just spreads the cases over time?
Because that is what is actually happening here.
Compare UK areas with a lot of cases on March 23rd (lockdown day) with areas that had almost zero.
By early April bad areas quickly get up to 200, 300 etc while the less affected places struggle to make it 20 or 30. But by mid May they will have the same numbers of cases.
Compare UK areas with a lot of cases on March 23rd (lockdown day) with areas that had almost zero.
By early April bad areas quickly get up to 200, 300 etc while the less affected places struggle to make it 20 or 30. But by mid May they will have the same numbers of cases.
Could you post a graph or a link to a graph or some stats so I can see what you're saying.
Charlie, I haven't got anything to hand right now to demonstrate this accurately (with correct case numbers per date etc) but I will come with something later tonight.
Dont think you were slow to react
Cheltenham is worth ten billion to your economy
So you couldnt cancel then
Then you have the biggest concern
Vast majority of brits are too far up their own r s holes
Tolerance, (tree huggers, immigration,p c, wishy washy liberals) far more important than a world pandemic.
Hopefully they will get a massive kick up the backside from this
The country has been going downhill for years
Hopefully they will draw lessons
Stop dwelling on suffering and poor me jeremy kyle fodder
... And get on with the job of making Britain great again.
Cheltenham is worth ten billion to your economy
So you couldnt cancel then
Then you have the biggest concern
Vast majority of brits are too far up their own r s holes
Tolerance, (tree huggers, immigration,p c, wishy washy liberals) far more important than a world pandemic.
Hopefully they will get a massive kick up the backside from this
The country has been going downhill for years
Hopefully they will draw lessons
Stop dwelling on suffering and poor me jeremy kyle fodder
... And get on with the job of making Britain great again.
"How on earth do you come to the conclusion that lockdown just spreads the cases over time?"
2 months of every expert on the planet explaining what flatening the curve means and Charlie still doesn't get it.
Anyway, it's nice to know the Guardian is still constantly getting its "politically unbiased" articles posted on this forum all day, unattributed.
It's not behind a paywall so it's almost like the person doing this thinks people won't click on the left wing sh1t if they just saw the link.
2 months of every expert on the planet explaining what flatening the curve means and Charlie still doesn't get it.
Anyway, it's nice to know the Guardian is still constantly getting its "politically unbiased" articles posted on this forum all day, unattributed.
It's not behind a paywall so it's almost like the person doing this thinks people won't click on the left wing sh1t if they just saw the link.
Gives politically unbiased and perfectly balanced individuals, such as yourself, something to rant about.
All part of the service, no need to thank me.
All part of the service, no need to thank me.
Dont think it makes a difference politically, left right, guardian or express.
The country aint the same as it was.
Being on its own out of the e u , getting mullered by covid could be just the tonic you need.
Putting captain tom and vera lynn in the limelight might just turn the tide.
If you aint going to work now, feck off, reduce all social welfare , the country is on its knees
.... And half of the middle east are still trying to get in
Time to look after what you have. Who is going to bale you lot out now ? Not the e u , not trump....
The country aint the same as it was.
Being on its own out of the e u , getting mullered by covid could be just the tonic you need.
Putting captain tom and vera lynn in the limelight might just turn the tide.
If you aint going to work now, feck off, reduce all social welfare , the country is on its knees
.... And half of the middle east are still trying to get in
Time to look after what you have. Who is going to bale you lot out now ? Not the e u , not trump....
Just Checking • May 7, 2020 7:47 PM BST
"How on earth do you come to the conclusion that lockdown just spreads the cases over time?"
2 months of every expert on the planet explaining what flatening the curve means and Charlie still doesn't get it.
Flattening the curve means getting the R rate below one so that the rate of infection decreases not increases. Currently the only way to do that is by lockdown. So please explain what all these experts on the planet are saying that I don't understand.
"How on earth do you come to the conclusion that lockdown just spreads the cases over time?"
2 months of every expert on the planet explaining what flatening the curve means and Charlie still doesn't get it.
Flattening the curve means getting the R rate below one so that the rate of infection decreases not increases. Currently the only way to do that is by lockdown. So please explain what all these experts on the planet are saying that I don't understand.
The R rate can also be brought down by the virus running out of people to infect.
That's what I said Toby - get the rate below one and you've almost cracked it.
dom says the rate is somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9.good to see the have their finger on it
Plenty of areas with big outbreaks on March 23rd (London boroughs). Plenty of towns elsewhere with comparable populations and almost zero cases
There were NO meaningful tests at that time. We only tested when individuals landed in hospital and people were told to stay home and sit it out. So were there really no "cases" in those regions at that time? Given the fact that people would have travelled freely from known areas of infection, and the fact that the virus spreads so easily.
I'd hazard a guess that we'd let things progress sufficiently, for plenty of individuals to be incubating and spreading the virus in some of the areas that seemingly had no cases, with the R rate as it was.
There were NO meaningful tests at that time. We only tested when individuals landed in hospital and people were told to stay home and sit it out. So were there really no "cases" in those regions at that time? Given the fact that people would have travelled freely from known areas of infection, and the fact that the virus spreads so easily.
I'd hazard a guess that we'd let things progress sufficiently, for plenty of individuals to be incubating and spreading the virus in some of the areas that seemingly had no cases, with the R rate as it was.
So were there really no "cases" in those regions at that time?
I wouldn't be surprised if there were 10,000 'cases' per local authority area three weeks before the lockdown ! As so many have no symptoms. We may never know.
There were NO meaningful tests at that time. We only tested when individuals landed in hospital and people were told to stay home and sit it out.
As you say the amount of testing was inadequate, but it likely was fairly uniformly inadequate*. The London areas were way ahead in terms of cases at the time of lockdown, but they were also way ahead in terms of reported deaths, which is an indicator that they did indeed have far more cases at that time, however inept the testing regime was.
*Some places have always insisted they had no problem testing big numbers : eg Sheffield and Tayside. However the South Wales Health Boards also claimed this but they now have the highest case numbers and the highest deaths per 100,000 of anywhere in the UK. So I think there has always been a correlation between the offcial number of positive tests and how bad the various places actually have it.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were 10,000 'cases' per local authority area three weeks before the lockdown ! As so many have no symptoms. We may never know.
There were NO meaningful tests at that time. We only tested when individuals landed in hospital and people were told to stay home and sit it out.
As you say the amount of testing was inadequate, but it likely was fairly uniformly inadequate*. The London areas were way ahead in terms of cases at the time of lockdown, but they were also way ahead in terms of reported deaths, which is an indicator that they did indeed have far more cases at that time, however inept the testing regime was.
*Some places have always insisted they had no problem testing big numbers : eg Sheffield and Tayside. However the South Wales Health Boards also claimed this but they now have the highest case numbers and the highest deaths per 100,000 of anywhere in the UK. So I think there has always been a correlation between the offcial number of positive tests and how bad the various places actually have it.
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