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Angoose
06 May 20 20:45
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Date Joined: 18 Jul 02
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From Italy to Australia, critics have accused a “complacent” British government of “massively underestimating” the gravity of the coronavirus crisis after the UK reported the highest death toll in Europe.

While Rai Uno, the Italian state broadcaster’s flagship channel, gave prominent play to the news that Britain had recorded “more than 32,000 deaths, the highest total in Europe exceeding even Italy”, the Corriere della Serra daily went a good way further.

The situation in the UK was “like a nightmare from which you cannot awake, but in which you landed because of your own fault or stupidity”, the influential liberal-conservative paper said, adding that Britain seemed “a prisoner of itself”.

The country that was “the most reluctant in Europe to impose a lockdown has become the most cautious to start reopening”, with public opinion frightened of the consequences and Boris Johnson eager to avoid breaking Italy’s “sad record”.

Experts have warned against direct international comparisons of Covid-19 death tolls, saying different counting methods and many other factors make such exercises unreliable and it may take months if not years to draw firm conclusions.

However, Beppe Severgnini, an opinion writer on Corriere della Sera, said it seemed clear Britain had “lost the advantage that fate and Italy gave it – for example, the first two weeks of the outbreak in Italy when it was obvious the virus was spreading”.

The British government “did not pay enough attention to what was happening here, while Germany responded very well”, Severgnini said. “The two great British virtues – understatement and grace under fire – have turned out to not be a blessing.”

He said the UK was served neither by “a very weak cabinet” nor Johnson’s character: “He’s not Trump, though there is something similar in their approaches, but in this kind of challenge you need to really work hard on details. He’s not a details person.”

Beyond Italy – where the Covid-19 death toll, which does not include suspected cases, is just over 29,000 – German commentators were also critical. Britain has emerged as Europe’s “problem child” of the Covid-19 crisis, the DPA news agency’s London correspondent Christoph Meyer wrote.

“Only a few weeks ago, Britain had the reputation of a country in which the coronavirus was only spreading cautiously,” Meyer wrote in an opinion piece published in several newspapers in Germany and Austria.

“Politicians were already slapping each other on their backs and praising the health system, which was better prepared for the pandemic than any other country in the world. But that has quickly revealed itself to be a fallacy … There are now many signs that the government in London massively underestimated the pandemic.”

In a piece this week drawing on the British prime minister’s frequent deployment of classical allusions, the London correspondent of Spain’s left-leaning El País queried suggestions that the prime minister was some latter-day Odysseus.

“The conservative press tries to present Johnson as a man of reborn wisdom”, whose experience of Covid-19 had led him to “lash himself to the mast to resist the siren calls” of those demanding the lockdown be lifted soon, wrote Rafa de Miguel.

“In fact, it’s far from clear whether such determination is the fruit of careful calculation – or the result of simply closing one’s eyes when there’s no other option.”
Officials in Greece, which has been widely praised for its handling of the pandemic, have watched London’s handling of the crisis with disbelief, with epidemiologists also criticising the UK government’s initial embrace of a “herd immunity” policy.

The progressive daily Ethnos described Johnson as “more dangerous than coronavirus”, saying one of the crisis’s greatest tragedies was that “incompetent leaders” such as Johnson and Donald Trump were “at the helm at a time of such emergency”.

Before changing tack, Johnson “had gone out and essentially asked Britons … to accept death”, wrote the columnist Giorgos Skafidas.

Irish commentators also expressed dismay at the UK’s record. “Ministers of slim talent have bumbled through daily briefings and now big business-Conservative donors are impatient to reverse a shutdown so contrary to Brexiteer dreams,” Fionnuala O’Connor wrote in the broadly nationalist Irish News.

“Boris Johnson needs all his showman’s tricks now to sell the phasing out of a lockdown which was less than effective, at least in part, because of his stubborn libertarianism.”

Outside Europe, criticism has been strongest in Australia and New Zealand, both of which imposed strict, early lockdowns and have contained their outbreaks. Scott Morrison, the Australian prime minister, said no country that had pursued herd immunity had achieved it, describing the strategy as a “death sentence”.

David Hunter, an Australian-educated professor of epidemiology and medicine at Oxford University, told the conservative Sydney Morning Herald the British response was “not a model to follow. It has one of the worst epidemics in Europe and the world … Some aspects of the response have almost certainly contributed to the high mortality”.

Hunter particularly criticised the British decision – in contrast to Australia and New Zealand – not to close its borders early. Mike Rann, a former Australian high commissioner to Britain, told the paper Britain had “handled the earliest stages negligently”, lamenting “a shambles of mixed messaging, poor organisation and a complacent attitude that what was happening in Italy wouldn’t happen here”.

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Replies: 83
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 20:46
Derek Jameson (29 November 1929 – 12 September 2012) was an English tabloid journalist and broadcaster.

Beginning his career in the media at the lowest possible level in 1944 at Reuters, he worked his way up to become the editor of several British tabloid newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s. Later, he was a regular broadcaster on BBC Radio 2 for nearly a decade and a half, including an on-air partnership with Ellen, his third wife, and he became a familiar television personality.

He was described, when his profile was at its highest, as "the second most famous man in Britain - after Prince Charles" by Auberon Waugh.

In 1984 he presented Do They Mean Us? a television series for BBC 2 which according to his Scotsman obituary was "a decidedly patriotic examination of foreign television networks’ British coverage". On the show, Jameson had the catchphrase; "Do they mean us? They surely do!"
By:
darren_discombobulates_sports
When: 06 May 20 20:49
what do they have to say about Sweden ?
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 20:51
Maybe if the World had Told us that Infected fookers were coming into the Country from December last year , We may have b
een a little more prepared , Moving forward the Rest of the World may find it a little harder to enter the UK post Virus ,So out of the Tragedy and disaster ,some small good will prevail ...
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 20:54
The UK has suffered due its Liberal and Lax  Vetting of who or what has been entering , That will soon be Kyboshed , we cannot be too careful after the Disaster we have suffered .. HTH.
By:
1st time poster
When: 06 May 20 20:55
which countries have we confounded, inspired by out approach then, exempelar to the world
By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 20:55
Are deaths outside hospital added by Italy & Spain to the same extent ours are ?
By:
nineteen points
When: 06 May 20 20:56
in a pigs eye case
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 20:57
in contrast to Australia and New Zealand – not to close its borders LaughLaughLaugh

Their fooking Borders are Never fooking open , Racist immigration Policies being the Key

You cannot m@ke these C@nts up Laugh
By:
lapsy pa
When: 06 May 20 20:59
I can't argue against much of the opening post,some hard truths in it.
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:00
Australia You cannot fooking make it up ,Honestly LaughLaugh

Most of the fooking country has Dingos and fook all else Laugh
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:02
Was talking to me Cousin Lives in Ballyfermit, PA , they are not too Happy with Veruka and his testing business over there , what are you doing 4000 a day ??
By:
peckerdunne
When: 06 May 20 21:03
Italy told them, begged them, they knew better as Tories, now thousands are unnecessarily dead.............thats the simple the truth
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:08
what about your testing Pecker hows it Going ?? 4000 a day Would have thought you would be well above that , any comments about that ??  Is Veruker a Tory ??
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:11
How would they have stopped these extra thousands Dying , Bar starting to test in January ??

What difference would a few more thousand tests have made ,We dont have millions of test kits stock

piled , do you think hancock has a stock pile in his shed ??
By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:14

May 6, 2020 -- 9:03PM, peckerdunne wrote:


Italy told them, begged them, they knew better as Tories, now thousands are unnecessarily dead.............thats the simple the truth


Nah. If we'd locked down same day as Italy we would still have caught them up.

By:
lapsy pa
When: 06 May 20 21:15
Don't think testing as like it is not much good,as PeckerD said on other thread if not done at same time a bit pointless except it gives clearance to key workers and just gives a broad idea of the overall state imo Casemoney.
By:
sofiakenny
When: 06 May 20 21:16
Yes pecker..I can still see that Italian doctor outside a hospital in all his gear screaming at the camera that "Its coming to you..its coming to you! please act NOw!"Sad
By:
thegiggilo
When: 06 May 20 21:19
And being patronized by one of our muppetts,think it was on ch4 catatrophic will go down in history..
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:19
WE could have Locked down 2 weeks earlier do you really
think that would have stopped this Disaster ???

I doubt it , as stated else where we have been on full LOCKDOWN where I am for 3 weeks it

appears to have stopped sweet F.A it is sweeping north across the UK ........... Unstoppable

And i am beginning to even Question this Lockdown Policy , the hospitals are coping that was

the main objective , What difference will banging every one up for another month Make ??????

Nicola knows there was a Slight change in her Outlook today Regarding the Lifting of restrictions

Shes not my cup of Tea but she is nobodys fool  ........
By:
lapsy pa
When: 06 May 20 21:24
I think it would greatly helped (locking  down 2 weeks early),it would have stopped a lot of cases,the resourses could have been used towards care homes,more PPE would be available with less cases.maybe even masks could have been made mandatory for the public outdoors?

It went too far, exponential the key word.
By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:26
IF ANYTHING testing should have started north of the Midlands after the Kick off there following London , That could have with less people to test , Testing in Scotland would have been of Massive Value and Wales , Bit late Testing in Places where probably 20 % of the community have it .....
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:27
How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?
By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:28
There are areas of the UK that had big outbreaks on lockdown day. And comparable areas that had hardly any cases, they were '2 weeks behind' the bad areas.

They locked down same day. Does it stop them catching up ? No, it makes no difference.

So why wouldn't we have caught Italy
By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:30

May 6, 2020 -- 9:27PM, Angoose wrote:


How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?


We don't know, but in places where everyone has been tested 15-20% seems top be the minimum.

By:
casemoney
When: 06 May 20 21:30
Care homes a Massive Miss Pa , deffo needs looking into , But 16 died in a care home near me 3 weeks ago , Then I stated the only reason that has happened is that the Virus is rife in the Community with people showing little or no symptoms ........
sadly I think I may have been right .. Sad
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:30
The results of hundreds of thousands of coronavirus tests carried out at privately run drive-through centres in England have not yet been shared with GPs or local authorities, who complain they have “no idea” where local disease clusters are.

GPs told the Guardian they had been “totally left out of the conversation” after the government said it was still “working on a technical solution” to get Covid-19 test results into individual GP records in England, having promised to do so weeks ago.

Meanwhile, the chief medical officer for England, Prof Chris Whitty, apologised to local health leaders who have not yet received any detailed data from “pillar two” tests conducted by the private firm Deloitte over the past month. These now form the majority of tests being carried out each day, either at drive-through testing centres or via the post.

During a conference call on Wednesday with directors of public health at local authorities across England, the government’s national coordinator of the UK coronavirus testing programme, Prof John Newton, also apologised for not yet sharing the detailed data. He said there had been “data quality issues”.

Newton admitted that the Deloitte tests did not yet ask people for their ethnicity or whether they worked in health or social care – an oversight described by one director of public health on the call as “really disappointing”. People of colour and healthcare workers and those working in care homes are known to have much higher incidences of the disease.
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:31

May 6, 2020 -- 9:30PM, tobermory wrote:


May  6, 2020 --  8:27PM, Angoose wrote:How do you know if 20% of the community have it without testing ?We don't know, but in places where everyone has been tested 15-20% seems top be the minimum.


Where are these places where everyone has been tested ?

By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:33
Ships, prisons a town in Germany for a start
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:35
How do you use that information to help you determine the current situation in Gateshead ?
By:
sofiakenny
When: 06 May 20 21:35
Are any of us in the least surprised by this incompetent mess?
By:
lapsy pa
When: 06 May 20 21:39
Prisons? you are joking,they don't even get called a "case" just suspected,i don't even think care homes have a fair percentage done despite promises made in early April,15th April,23rd April and now.....
By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:39

May 6, 2020 -- 9:35PM, Angoose wrote:


How do you use that information to help you determine the current situation in Gateshead ?


To find out you test everyone in Gateshead. I am not saying not to test. You queried why we know 20% have had it already. I said we don't know but it seems a reasonable guess based on studies.

By:
tobermory
When: 06 May 20 21:40

May 6, 2020 -- 9:39PM, lapsy pa wrote:


Prisons? you are joking,they don't even get called a "case" just suspected,i don't even think care homes have a fair percentage done despite promises made in early April,15th April,23rd April and now.....


Inside Trader posted some results from testing in US prisons. The info was not totally complete but the one that gave enough figures to work out the infection rate had over 2,000 prisoners tested and 88% positive.

By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:43
There are active studies going on at the moment in the UK with sample groups that are seeking to determine the status in the UK community.
No need to guess with what has been reported from a US prison and try to apply that to a significantly different environment.

The sample sizes of such studies are relatively small, along the lines of opinion polls.
By:
lapsy pa
When: 06 May 20 21:45
I saw the US one,quite a few,last i seen in UK went back to mid April from memory and 19 deaths(just prisoners),i posted that at the time.
By:
impossible123
When: 06 May 20 21:51
I believe every cloud has a silver lining. The UK were virtually untouched by SARS, but post Cpvid-19 the non-procurement of sufficient PPE and health equipment, and a slowness in closing our borders to those coming in from China (originator of SARS too) and its neighbours will never be repeated again.

I'd expect another repeat of today's scenario by China (SARS was in 2003) in the next couple of decades (again) unless the wet market there is banned and made illegal or highly regulated otherwise it's 1.000000000000000001 another cousin of Covid-19 will emanate from China again to terrorise the rest of the world.
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 21:58
There were only around 8k cases of SARS in 2002/3, spread over 28 countries, and resulting in 774 deaths, or 9.6% of those known to be infected.
By:
Angoose
When: 06 May 20 22:01
The vast majority of activities undertaken at a "wet market" pose no risk in regard to an outbreak of a coronavirus such as SARS.
It is the small number of activities with live wild animals that creates the risk. Ensure that these activities are curtailed.
By:
lux
When: 06 May 20 22:16
"These facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.

Measures to flatten the curve might have an effect, but a lockdown only pushes the severe cases into the future —it will not prevent them."

Full article here...

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext
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