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23 Apr 20
08:24
Joined:
Date Joined:
25 Aug 05
Delays in diagnosing and treating people with cancer could lead to more years of lost life than with Covid-19, according to a leading cancer expert.
A drop-off in screening and referrals means roughly 2,700 fewer people are being diagnosed every week, Cancer Research UK says.
Cancer screening has paused in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, with few invitations sent out in England.
People are still advised to contact their GP with worrying symptoms.
But Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said there was more fear of Covid-19 than of having cancer at the moment. With GPs more difficult to contact than normal, this was resulting in a "dramatic drop-off" in referrals to specialists, he said.
"Most modellers in the UK estimate excess of deaths is going to be way greater than we are going to see with Covid-19," he said.
With cancer patients generally much younger, Prof Sullivan predicted "years of lost life will be quite dramatic" on top of "a huge amount of avoidable mortality".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52382303
^
Boris you must take this and deaths from suicide, heart issues and everything else rather than looking at the Covid-19 thing in isolation.
The 'cure' is worse than the disease and that is before you take into account the cost on health and society due to the trashing of the economy.
We need to go back to the plan of protecting the vulnerable (and do it properly this time) and let the younger people get on with their lives.
A drop-off in screening and referrals means roughly 2,700 fewer people are being diagnosed every week, Cancer Research UK says.
Cancer screening has paused in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, with few invitations sent out in England.
People are still advised to contact their GP with worrying symptoms.
But Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health at King's College London, said there was more fear of Covid-19 than of having cancer at the moment. With GPs more difficult to contact than normal, this was resulting in a "dramatic drop-off" in referrals to specialists, he said.
"Most modellers in the UK estimate excess of deaths is going to be way greater than we are going to see with Covid-19," he said.
With cancer patients generally much younger, Prof Sullivan predicted "years of lost life will be quite dramatic" on top of "a huge amount of avoidable mortality".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52382303
^
Boris you must take this and deaths from suicide, heart issues and everything else rather than looking at the Covid-19 thing in isolation.
The 'cure' is worse than the disease and that is before you take into account the cost on health and society due to the trashing of the economy.
We need to go back to the plan of protecting the vulnerable (and do it properly this time) and let the younger people get on with their lives.
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2700 fewer people diagnosed every week.
Six weeks lock down results in 17,000 few people. No one believe it will only be six weeks now.
Then there will be a backlog and people will not be able to get appointments.
Add in people not getting treatment.
This is a direct result of the scaremongering and group think reaction to Covid.
Six weeks lock down results in 17,000 few people. No one believe it will only be six weeks now.
Then there will be a backlog and people will not be able to get appointments.
Add in people not getting treatment.
This is a direct result of the scaremongering and group think reaction to Covid.
So you want to kill these people and more with COVID instead?
The right wing are utterly desperate to kill tens of millions worldwide because their system might collapse and be replaced by one that works.
If you truly believe it is "scaremongering" you should get the bus down to your local supermarket without a mask of course(the goverment said they are not needed) and get a few bits in for a nice dinner.
dave, you are one of the most intelligent posters on here, I'm struggling to believe you wrote that at 7.35.
Dave why is saying the total lock down could well mean more hours on the planet are lost than not having a total lock down right wing?
It is not just cancer. Have a look at the domestic abuse thread. Think about heart disease.
The NHS is recieving very few patients and this will unfortunately lead to extra deaths in the long term.
It is not just cancer. Have a look at the domestic abuse thread. Think about heart disease.
The NHS is recieving very few patients and this will unfortunately lead to extra deaths in the long term.
saddo Insider trader has been posting US style anti-lockdown posts for days. It is quite obvious that this line of thought is based on contempt for the sick and the old who must be left to die to preserve the capitalist system.
We need to go back to the plan of protecting the vulnerable (and do it properly this time) and let the younger people get on with their lives.
If the NHS is receiving very few patients why aren't they deployed elsewhere or redeployed back to cancer screening etc? That is an "administrative" error,surely the covid and normal services can and i think probably are working in tandem?
Surely if they have very few patients,it is time for a turnaround,whose fault is that?
Surely if they have very few patients,it is time for a turnaround,whose fault is that?
^^When the younger people and nhs staff are off sick and quarantined they won't be treating cancer patients or getting on with their lives.
We haven't organised ourselves yet to ease lockdown - mass testing is required and probably masks provided for everyone.
We haven't organised ourselves yet to ease lockdown - mass testing is required and probably masks provided for everyone.
Probably a lot of "younger" people working in care homes getting on with there lives trying to protect the most vulnerabe, and they can't even get a test though they suspect they have covid.
When you are at this point IT you are nowhere.
When you are at this point IT you are nowhere.
heard 2 brains willet on newsnight last night saying tory,s have been a success because nhs hasn't been over run, and normal illnesses wouldn't get treated, but if people are staying away because their frightened their policy has failed ,because staying away is just as bad as been over run treatment wise
hancocks 150 point plan started as a 5 point plan
don't go to hospital,dr,s unless you have to
don't phone 111 unless you have to
hospitals,care homes,dr,s surgery are biggest seats of the virus
lack of ppe is causing the spread
lack of testing for nhs workers is causing the spread
quel surprise when people stay away,who,d have flunked it,you,d have to be in the process of receiving the last rights to even consider going to hospital if your over 50,s
hancocks 150 point plan started as a 5 point plan
don't go to hospital,dr,s unless you have to
don't phone 111 unless you have to
hospitals,care homes,dr,s surgery are biggest seats of the virus
lack of ppe is causing the spread
lack of testing for nhs workers is causing the spread
quel surprise when people stay away,who,d have flunked it,you,d have to be in the process of receiving the last rights to even consider going to hospital if your over 50,s
The last place you want to be is a hospital right now. Would it not make more sense to treat as many covid patients as possible in the Nightgales? Could that be done? We need some covid free hospitals particularly for cancer patients. It is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is possible that just just as man6 die from non covid disease because of the way things have been handled.
tested nhs workers in ppe don't want to go into hospital but loonies like hancock begging people to go
Whisperingdeath, even the non covid hospitals are like ghost ships. Our largest has been given over to covid and A+E, the other two are doing ongoing chemo -and no doubt other stuff- but the car parks are almost empty all day. I took someone for heceptin last week, chaos. We had three round trips for one treatment due to problems at their end, over 100 miles in total. You cannot go in with them, they are temperature tested before being admitted. Some relatives are sat in the car park for 7 hours without a bog if they are non drivers.
This is a direct consequence of the pandemic. Using it as a reason to call for a release of lockdown doesn't stack up. There will be more spread and more people in hospital if you release lockdown now, exacerbating the problem with other diseases not being treated and people fearing covid.
You've missed the boat to give out about a lockdown. The time to complain was when they were doing nothing and encouraging the spread - that has made a lockdown inevitable and required them to set aside the bulk of hospital capacity for the peak. It also increased the size of the peak and meant they had to set aside more hospital cover than they would have if they hadn't encouraged it. They should have been testing, tracking contacts and isolating them, instead of encouraging the spread and doing nothing. Note that that is what they are proposing to do once the surge wanes. Why do you think they are not proposing to encourage the spread and do nothing again when the surge wanes? Because it was a mistake and they know it.
And not every country discourages people from getting other illnesses treated like the UK does.
You've missed the boat to give out about a lockdown. The time to complain was when they were doing nothing and encouraging the spread - that has made a lockdown inevitable and required them to set aside the bulk of hospital capacity for the peak. It also increased the size of the peak and meant they had to set aside more hospital cover than they would have if they hadn't encouraged it. They should have been testing, tracking contacts and isolating them, instead of encouraging the spread and doing nothing. Note that that is what they are proposing to do once the surge wanes. Why do you think they are not proposing to encourage the spread and do nothing again when the surge wanes? Because it was a mistake and they know it.
And not every country discourages people from getting other illnesses treated like the UK does.
If this lockdown continues there will be mass unemployment and a depression not a recession, possibly social unrest.
I don’t think anyone has the right answers but we need to be talking about it at the very least. There is a genuine fear that more people will die of non covid related diseases
I don’t think anyone has the right answers but we need to be talking about it at the very least. There is a genuine fear that more people will die of non covid related diseases
Whisperingdeath
23 Apr 20 08:21
Joined: 25 Dec 11
| Topic/replies: 27,101 | Blogger: Whisperingdeath's blog
The last place you want to be is a hospital right now. Would it not make more sense to treat as many covid patients as possible in the Nightgales? Could that be done? We need some covid free hospitals particularly for cancer patients. It is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is possible that just just as man6 die from non covid disease because of the way things have been handled.
^
That is the ultimate plan I hear.
Currently hospitals are set into Red (Covid) Zones and Green (non-Covid) zones.
Reports are some hospitals are running high in the red zones but most are not. Flattening the curve does not mean less deaths from covid (area under curve the same). It just means NHS is not overrun all at once. Not having red zones at capacity is prolonging the pain of this.
In the green zones NHS staff are walking around with nothing to do. Every day this happens we are building up problems for the future.
23 Apr 20 08:21
Joined: 25 Dec 11
| Topic/replies: 27,101 | Blogger: Whisperingdeath's blog
The last place you want to be is a hospital right now. Would it not make more sense to treat as many covid patients as possible in the Nightgales? Could that be done? We need some covid free hospitals particularly for cancer patients. It is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is possible that just just as man6 die from non covid disease because of the way things have been handled.
^
That is the ultimate plan I hear.
Currently hospitals are set into Red (Covid) Zones and Green (non-Covid) zones.
Reports are some hospitals are running high in the red zones but most are not. Flattening the curve does not mean less deaths from covid (area under curve the same). It just means NHS is not overrun all at once. Not having red zones at capacity is prolonging the pain of this.
In the green zones NHS staff are walking around with nothing to do. Every day this happens we are building up problems for the future.
They are talking about it. They've been talking about exit strategies for weeks. But they are weeks away from the right time to implement them and they know that too but keep talking it up like it's imminent now, which doesn't help and is self-serving. Exiting lockdown too early is not going to make any aspect better, it will make all of them worse and risk a second surge requiring another lockdown. You are talking about a matter of waiting weeks not months or years.
Flattening the curve is all about extending it time-wise. Encouraging the spread means the curve is steeper and takes longer to flatten. Flattening the curve does mean less deaths from covid because hospitals will be overwhelmed if you don't and the death rate jumps and people can't get treatment for any illness.
Flattening the curve is all about extending it time-wise. Encouraging the spread means the curve is steeper and takes longer to flatten. Flattening the curve does mean less deaths from covid because hospitals will be overwhelmed if you don't and the death rate jumps and people can't get treatment for any illness.
Apr 23, 2020 -- 9:03AM, dave1357 wrote:
saddo Insider trader has been posting US style anti-lockdown posts for days.
lurka
23 Apr 20 09:37
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,268 | Blogger: lurka's blog
They are talking about it. They've been talking about exit strategies for weeks. But they are weeks away from the right time to implement them and they know that too but keep talking it up like it's imminent now, which doesn't help and is self-serving. Exiting lockdown too early is not going to make any aspect better, it will make all of them worse and risk a second surge requiring another lockdown. You are talking about a matter of waiting weeks not months or years.
Flattening the curve is all about extending it time-wise. Encouraging the spread means the curve is steeper and takes longer to flatten. Flattening the curve does mean less deaths from covid because hospitals will be overwhelmed if you don't and the death rate jumps and people can't get treatment for any illness.
^
That is the point hospitals are not overwhelmed.
The original mission to protect the NHS. It has been protected. ICU beds are sitting empty. Cancer treatment centers are sitting empty. Cardiac outpatients are sitting empty. Green zone day beds are sitting virtually empty.
23 Apr 20 09:37
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,268 | Blogger: lurka's blog
They are talking about it. They've been talking about exit strategies for weeks. But they are weeks away from the right time to implement them and they know that too but keep talking it up like it's imminent now, which doesn't help and is self-serving. Exiting lockdown too early is not going to make any aspect better, it will make all of them worse and risk a second surge requiring another lockdown. You are talking about a matter of waiting weeks not months or years.
Flattening the curve is all about extending it time-wise. Encouraging the spread means the curve is steeper and takes longer to flatten. Flattening the curve does mean less deaths from covid because hospitals will be overwhelmed if you don't and the death rate jumps and people can't get treatment for any illness.
^
That is the point hospitals are not overwhelmed.
The original mission to protect the NHS. It has been protected. ICU beds are sitting empty. Cancer treatment centers are sitting empty. Cardiac outpatients are sitting empty. Green zone day beds are sitting virtually empty.
Apr 23, 2020 -- 9:03AM, dave1357 wrote:
saddo Insider trader has been posting US style anti-lockdown posts for days. It is quite obvious that this line of thought is based on contempt for the sick and the old who must be left to die to preserve the capitalist system.
> The free thinker in chief just takes whichever stance the people he adores take at any moment in time (and he's more easily convinced if you tell him there's some evil plot from Bill Gates to chip him behind it all)
Not too long ago he feared the US would have the worst numbers if the US didn't impose a Boris-style lockdown right away, called it a disgrace that people in the UK were still out for reasons other than food, medicine, once a day exercise or being a key worker. Also called it stupid that Italy and Spain weren't locked down enough in his mind.
Now the lockdowns are all a result of the stupid sheep with their group think and scaremongering.
I think Spain will end up with the worst numbers (or USA if they do not impose a total Boris style lockdown like right away).
InsiderTrader • March 24, 2020 4:58 PM GMT
Pictures from the tube this morning were a disgrace.
People should not be going anyway except for:
1. Food
2. Meds
3. Once a day to exercise
4. To work if they are a key worker (food shop workers, delivery, food processing, NHS, police etc)
Spain introduced similar measures one week ago although they still allow everyone to go to work which is stupid.
Italy only just shut non-essential factory workers in the north which is also stupid.
France has the strongest lockdown in Europe.
well there's no need to release a lockdown to fill them then is there? what is that going to achieve?
We know you want the lockdown released. But those hospitals being empty has nothing to do with that. Releasing lockdown will only mean they have to set aside more hospital cover because the spread will increase. Your argument makes no sense.
We know you want the lockdown released. But those hospitals being empty has nothing to do with that. Releasing lockdown will only mean they have to set aside more hospital cover because the spread will increase. Your argument makes no sense.
china realised pretty quickly that hospitals were places that spread the infection so they built new hospitals just for covid patients. it is nothing new that hospital acquired infection is a big problem. we really keep covid patients out of our local hospitals and in the nightingale facilities (and maybe other smaller such places).
I don't believe those Nightingales are currently capable of operating anywhere near capacity. You need all the equipment and trained staff, not just to set up a hospital.
But if there's capacity in non-covid hospitals then there is nothing stopping people getting treatment right now, so no need to release lockdown. Lockdown has nothing to do with it. Releasing it will only increase spread and the chances of getting covid and thus the fear that leads people not to get treatment. Doesn't stack up. Stay in lockdown until your numbers fall to trackable case levels and people will have good reason not to fear covid and be more willing to get treatment for non-covid illnesses.
But if there's capacity in non-covid hospitals then there is nothing stopping people getting treatment right now, so no need to release lockdown. Lockdown has nothing to do with it. Releasing it will only increase spread and the chances of getting covid and thus the fear that leads people not to get treatment. Doesn't stack up. Stay in lockdown until your numbers fall to trackable case levels and people will have good reason not to fear covid and be more willing to get treatment for non-covid illnesses.
Edy, it is fair to say I was taken in the Imperial College report as much as the next person.
It is not my job to work on these things.
Protecting the NHS made sense to me given the garbage numbers in the report. Now we know the assumptions were poor the policy is also poor.
It has been clear to me for a couple of weeks the mission is creeping into something else.
There is capacity in the NHS now that the Imperial report never allowed to be increased in its modelling.
Boris and Trump and Macron and all the other are making a mistake to allow mission creep on this.
It is not my job to work on these things.
Protecting the NHS made sense to me given the garbage numbers in the report. Now we know the assumptions were poor the policy is also poor.
It has been clear to me for a couple of weeks the mission is creeping into something else.
There is capacity in the NHS now that the Imperial report never allowed to be increased in its modelling.
Boris and Trump and Macron and all the other are making a mistake to allow mission creep on this.
We certainly do appear to have certain posters engaged on a creepy mission 
lurka
23 Apr 20 09:47
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,270 | Blogger: lurka's blog
well there's no need to release a lockdown to fill them then is there? what is that going to achieve?
We know you want the lockdown released. But those hospitals being empty has nothing to do with that. Releasing lockdown will only mean they have to set aside more hospital cover because the spread will increase. Your argument makes no sense.
^
It will get people working and get the economy moving so we can pay for things like the NHS. It will stop people losing their jobs. It will give people the confidence to go to the doctor and get treatments.
At the moment they tell us it is unsafe to go out for non-essential things. Hardly inspires confidence to go the doctor.
23 Apr 20 09:47
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,270 | Blogger: lurka's blog
well there's no need to release a lockdown to fill them then is there? what is that going to achieve?
We know you want the lockdown released. But those hospitals being empty has nothing to do with that. Releasing lockdown will only mean they have to set aside more hospital cover because the spread will increase. Your argument makes no sense.
^
It will get people working and get the economy moving so we can pay for things like the NHS. It will stop people losing their jobs. It will give people the confidence to go to the doctor and get treatments.
At the moment they tell us it is unsafe to go out for non-essential things. Hardly inspires confidence to go the doctor.
i fear you are correct lurka, i am sure i heard that they lack staff. yesterday whitty seemed happy to carry on treating patients in our hospitals so the virus will continue to spread .....
edy
23 Apr 20 09:57
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 225,381 | Blogger: edy's blog
What is the mission creeping into?
^
The original idea was to protect the NHS.
'STAY HOME' 'PROTECT THE NHS' 'SAVE LIVES'
The NHS is protected. It appears they are now looking to do far more that just that. The NHS is now very unlikely to be over run. The Imperial report the slogan was based on assumed half the number (or more) of ICU bed we now have. That is where the larger number comes from.
Imperial also told us we follow there plan expect 20k deaths. Well we are clearly well over that so the model was wrong there as well and the do not include deaths from cancer etc as a consequence.
23 Apr 20 09:57
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 225,381 | Blogger: edy's blog
What is the mission creeping into?
^
The original idea was to protect the NHS.
'STAY HOME' 'PROTECT THE NHS' 'SAVE LIVES'
The NHS is protected. It appears they are now looking to do far more that just that. The NHS is now very unlikely to be over run. The Imperial report the slogan was based on assumed half the number (or more) of ICU bed we now have. That is where the larger number comes from.
Imperial also told us we follow there plan expect 20k deaths. Well we are clearly well over that so the model was wrong there as well and the do not include deaths from cancer etc as a consequence.
Things like shutting schools have a massive economic cost and make virtually zero difference to stopping the spread.
Their primary reason for existence is to kill old people by sneezing on them, coughing on them, touching them all over.
trader you want to release the lock down before numbers are at a manageable level and we havent got systems in place to test, isolate and trace?
imo, that would mean the disease would spread again, so the last month would have achieved little and then in short order we would end up in another lock down.
the model was wrong but surely not in the direction that helps your cause trader?
imo, that would mean the disease would spread again, so the last month would have achieved little and then in short order we would end up in another lock down.
the model was wrong but surely not in the direction that helps your cause trader?
If people weren't confident before lockdown and still aren't during lockdown, then how will releasing it make them more confident than if case numbers are allowed to fall right down and each case is being tracked?
Lockdown is not stopping people getting treatment, you've even pointed out the available capacity yourself. The prevalence of the virus and your government discouraging them, despite having capacity, is stopping them. Lockdown drastically reduces anyone's chances of catching it, so less reason to fear infection during lockdown.
Lockdown is not stopping people getting treatment, you've even pointed out the available capacity yourself. The prevalence of the virus and your government discouraging them, despite having capacity, is stopping them. Lockdown drastically reduces anyone's chances of catching it, so less reason to fear infection during lockdown.
Imperial also told us we follow there plan expect 20k deaths. Well we are clearly well over that so the model was wrong there as well and the do not include deaths from cancer etc as a consequence.
Well, people were being a disgrace and still ventured outside against Boris' advice.
Did you answer what mission it was creeping into btw.? I'm not quite sure what the phrase "mission is creeping into something else." meant to be honest...
What does it mean?
Well, people were being a disgrace and still ventured outside against Boris' advice.
Did you answer what mission it was creeping into btw.? I'm not quite sure what the phrase "mission is creeping into something else." meant to be honest...
What does it mean?
edy, the mission is no longer about just protecting the NHS from being overrun.
I think they want to optimise it for minimum deaths from people who test positive for the virus.
That was not the original mission.
I think they want to optimise it for minimum deaths from people who test positive for the virus.
That was not the original mission.
the nhs is protected because no one is using it and 800 a day are dying of virus,we,re losing at both ends a 2 yr old could have come up with a plan that doesn't stop 40,000 dying of virus and everyone is to scared to use hospitals, like itlay in new York over 90% of those put on a ventilator are dying,
IT do you realise that being at or near peak is not the end of the surge, it's only the middle of it?
Apr 23, 2020 -- 11:14AM, InsiderTrader wrote:
edy, the mission is no longer about just protecting the NHS from being overrun.I think they want to optimise it for minimum deaths from people who test positive for the virus.That was not the original mission.
Interesting because others are insisting the UK still does herd immunity by stealth.
Either way, as e.g jolly has said, with the government being too incompetent to organise sufficient testing capacities after even all this time, you can't really just unleash the lockdown as this stage. If you did, the entire lockdown would've completely for nothing.
It was never the plan to release lockdown when at the peak of the surge. It was the plan to release it when cases return to a manageable level and you can track them. You are weeks away from that. And all of this was a given once you did nothing at the start. These restrictions have been set in stone since then.
edy, what is the mood in germany? are people happy with your approach to covid?
any views generally of uk approach? and what is your own view of our approach?
thank you
any views generally of uk approach? and what is your own view of our approach?
thank you
lurka
23 Apr 20 10:17
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,272 | Blogger: lurka's blog
IT do you realise that being at or near peak is not the end of the surge, it's only the middle of it?
^
Surely what matters is the number of patients in hospital in England and Wales in declining?
They peaked at 20184 on 12th April. Now 17477.
23 Apr 20 10:17
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,272 | Blogger: lurka's blog
IT do you realise that being at or near peak is not the end of the surge, it's only the middle of it?
^
Surely what matters is the number of patients in hospital in England and Wales in declining?
They peaked at 20184 on 12th April. Now 17477.
Why are new infections not going down much after 4 weeks of lockdown?
Why are 15,000 people a day allowed to come into the country?
Why are 15,000 people a day allowed to come into the country?
oh dear insider trader is off again
a dangerous whack job wanting to kill british citizens so he can go down the pub.
a dangerous whack job wanting to kill british citizens so he can go down the pub.
So you are at 17.5k of a peak of 20k and you want to release a lockdown at almost 90% of peak. How long do you think it would take for that figure to go above 20k and a lot higher? Not very long.
Again, it was never the plan to release lockdown at or near peak. It was the plan to release it gradually when cases return to a level where you can track and trace, like you should have done from day 1. You are nowhere near that level and you risk overwhelming hospital capacity in jig-time releasing it now, undoing all the benefit of the current lockdown and having to enter another, possibly longer, lockdown within a month if you release it now.
Anyway the thread is about people not seeking treatment for other life threatening illnesses and you've already pointed out that the capacity is there to take them now, so it's not a reason to release lockdown. It's a consequence of there being a pandemic floating around the place while the spread is not yet under control. And as in every pandemic, deaths from all illnesses tend to rise.
Again, it was never the plan to release lockdown at or near peak. It was the plan to release it gradually when cases return to a level where you can track and trace, like you should have done from day 1. You are nowhere near that level and you risk overwhelming hospital capacity in jig-time releasing it now, undoing all the benefit of the current lockdown and having to enter another, possibly longer, lockdown within a month if you release it now.
Anyway the thread is about people not seeking treatment for other life threatening illnesses and you've already pointed out that the capacity is there to take them now, so it's not a reason to release lockdown. It's a consequence of there being a pandemic floating around the place while the spread is not yet under control. And as in every pandemic, deaths from all illnesses tend to rise.
How would I know the mood? Fascists ain't allowin' me to go outside? 
I think people are mostly fine with the approach taken by the respective federal states (in coordination with each other). I think I already told you the other day that it's a bit different everywhere because disease control is first and foremost the constitutional responsibility of the states. So there are some differences like when schools open again, if and when graduation exams are held, what shops are allowed to open, whether and at which places there is a mandatory mouth-and-nose-guard, if people are allowed to enter a state and so on. Obviously mood will also depend on how much your existence is at stake. Whether e.g you think the government helps enough to keep your holidaygoer business alive.
Overall, Germans are disciplined fellas. With our strong written constitution, strong constitutional court and us being a member of the EU and the European Charter of Human Rights, we also rest assured that there are plenty mechanism to protect us from any overboarding, permanent infringements of our rights.
As for the UK: I haven't really seen much coverage of it, so wouldn't really know how the media view your approach. There was coverage when you were meant to go for herd immunity. I think that was deemed a gamble at the time.
My personal view: Obviously I don't live in the UK so I don't know what's going on exactly. From my point of view it's a massive shame that, even after all this time, you only test in hospitals unless someone is more equal than the rest, i.e part of the ruling class or relatives. I mean, these tests aren't rocket science (and no, they do not just look for exosomes). Labs that are e.g specialised in veterinary medicine could easily help if they aren't already. Surely the UK with its history of animal plagues has some existing capacities there. It frankly bamboozles me that the UK can't ramp up the testing.
As for some other things: I'm grumpy that your lame approach has cost us Wimbledon this year, even if generally I agree with Marat Safin that grass is for cows.
I'm not quite sure what the one exercise a day thing is meant to do. I think that it would've been smarter and reasonable to allow people to go outside as much as they want, but make them keep a distance and urge them to not come together in big groups.
Personally, I think the lockdown in general is the right decision now after politicians had been criminally neglective before, often in the name of profits or entertainment.
Anything else more specific you'd like to know?
I think people are mostly fine with the approach taken by the respective federal states (in coordination with each other). I think I already told you the other day that it's a bit different everywhere because disease control is first and foremost the constitutional responsibility of the states. So there are some differences like when schools open again, if and when graduation exams are held, what shops are allowed to open, whether and at which places there is a mandatory mouth-and-nose-guard, if people are allowed to enter a state and so on. Obviously mood will also depend on how much your existence is at stake. Whether e.g you think the government helps enough to keep your holidaygoer business alive.
Overall, Germans are disciplined fellas. With our strong written constitution, strong constitutional court and us being a member of the EU and the European Charter of Human Rights, we also rest assured that there are plenty mechanism to protect us from any overboarding, permanent infringements of our rights.
As for the UK: I haven't really seen much coverage of it, so wouldn't really know how the media view your approach. There was coverage when you were meant to go for herd immunity. I think that was deemed a gamble at the time.
My personal view: Obviously I don't live in the UK so I don't know what's going on exactly. From my point of view it's a massive shame that, even after all this time, you only test in hospitals unless someone is more equal than the rest, i.e part of the ruling class or relatives. I mean, these tests aren't rocket science (and no, they do not just look for exosomes). Labs that are e.g specialised in veterinary medicine could easily help if they aren't already. Surely the UK with its history of animal plagues has some existing capacities there. It frankly bamboozles me that the UK can't ramp up the testing.
As for some other things: I'm grumpy that your lame approach has cost us Wimbledon this year, even if generally I agree with Marat Safin that grass is for cows.
I'm not quite sure what the one exercise a day thing is meant to do. I think that it would've been smarter and reasonable to allow people to go outside as much as they want, but make them keep a distance and urge them to not come together in big groups.
Personally, I think the lockdown in general is the right decision now after politicians had been criminally neglective before, often in the name of profits or entertainment.
Anything else more specific you'd like to know?
lurka
23 Apr 20 10:59
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,277 | Blogger: lurka's blog
So you are at 17.5k of a peak of 20k and you want to release a lockdown at almost 90% of peak. How long do you think it would take for that figure to go above 20k and a lot higher? Not very long.
Again, it was never the plan to release lockdown at or near peak. It was the plan to release it gradually when cases return to a level where you can track and trace, like you should have done from day 1. You are nowhere near that level and you risk overwhelming hospital capacity in jig-time releasing it now, undoing all the benefit of the current lockdown and having to enter another, possibly longer, lockdown within a month if you release it now.
Anyway the thread is about people not seeking treatment for other life threatening illnesses and you've already pointed out that the capacity is there to take them now, so it's not a reason to release lockdown. It's a consequence of there being a pandemic floating around the place while the spread is not yet under control. And as in every pandemic, deaths from all illnesses tend to rise.
^
Have you got a link to when they announced this as the plan?
23 Apr 20 10:59
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,277 | Blogger: lurka's blog
So you are at 17.5k of a peak of 20k and you want to release a lockdown at almost 90% of peak. How long do you think it would take for that figure to go above 20k and a lot higher? Not very long.
Again, it was never the plan to release lockdown at or near peak. It was the plan to release it gradually when cases return to a level where you can track and trace, like you should have done from day 1. You are nowhere near that level and you risk overwhelming hospital capacity in jig-time releasing it now, undoing all the benefit of the current lockdown and having to enter another, possibly longer, lockdown within a month if you release it now.
Anyway the thread is about people not seeking treatment for other life threatening illnesses and you've already pointed out that the capacity is there to take them now, so it's not a reason to release lockdown. It's a consequence of there being a pandemic floating around the place while the spread is not yet under control. And as in every pandemic, deaths from all illnesses tend to rise.
^
Have you got a link to when they announced this as the plan?
edy
uk to begin contacting housholds to engage in random sampling.
about time too.
uk to begin contacting housholds to engage in random sampling.
about time too.
A professor at King’s College London has warned that there will be more excess cancer deaths over the next 5 years than the number of people who die from coronavirus in the UK due to the disruption caused by the coronavirus lockdown, which is preventing cancer victims from getting treatment.
Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health and director of its Institute of Cancer Policy, said: “The number of deaths due to the disruption of cancer services is likely to outweigh the number of deaths from the coronavirus itself over the next five years.”
Many people are avoiding hospitals, partly due to fear of coronavirus and partly due to the NHS implying that people should stay away so as not to burden doctors and nurses.
This means that routine cancer screenings have all but stopped and there will be a massive backlog once normality resumes.
“The cessation and delay of cancer care will cause considerable avoidable suffering,” said Sullivan. “Cancer screening services have stopped, which means we will miss our chance to catch many cancers when they are treatable and curable, such as cervical, bowel and breast.”
People didn’t suddenly stop getting cancer when the coronavirus outbreak started, but now they are not getting treatment.
One wonders what the point is in allowing such disruption in the name of saving lives, only to lose more lives to cancer in the long run.
“Some stroke and heart attack patients are routinely waiting more than two hours for an ambulance, while 2,300 cancer diagnoses are being missed each week because patients are not going to see their GP or because they are not being referred for urgent tests and scans at hospital,” reports the Daily Mail.
“Another 400 cancers a week are, it is estimated, being missed because breast, cervical and bowel cancer screening has been suspended. For any of these patients, delay can be a death sentence.”
As we previously highlighted, despite many predictions that the NHS would be “overwhelmed” by coronavirus, acute hospital beds across the United Kingdom are four times emptier than normal.
One of the overspill hospitals built to handle with an excess of patients due to coronavirus in the north east remains empty and will never be used.
In addition, the temporary Nightingale hospital in London has “remained largely empty since it opened,” according to HSJ.
Despite all this, the UK government has refused to even suggest when lockdown measures may end.
Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty also said that social distancing measures will have to remain in place until a vaccine is available, something that could take more than a year.
A graph also shows that, when population differences are factored in, Sweden, which hasn’t imposed any mandatory lockdown measures, has virtually the same death rate as England, which has been under lockdown for over a month.
https://summit.news/2020/04/23/professor-warns-cancer-deaths-due-to-covid-disruption-will-be-greater-than-deaths-from-coronavirus/
Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health and director of its Institute of Cancer Policy, said: “The number of deaths due to the disruption of cancer services is likely to outweigh the number of deaths from the coronavirus itself over the next five years.”
Many people are avoiding hospitals, partly due to fear of coronavirus and partly due to the NHS implying that people should stay away so as not to burden doctors and nurses.
This means that routine cancer screenings have all but stopped and there will be a massive backlog once normality resumes.
“The cessation and delay of cancer care will cause considerable avoidable suffering,” said Sullivan. “Cancer screening services have stopped, which means we will miss our chance to catch many cancers when they are treatable and curable, such as cervical, bowel and breast.”
People didn’t suddenly stop getting cancer when the coronavirus outbreak started, but now they are not getting treatment.
One wonders what the point is in allowing such disruption in the name of saving lives, only to lose more lives to cancer in the long run.
“Some stroke and heart attack patients are routinely waiting more than two hours for an ambulance, while 2,300 cancer diagnoses are being missed each week because patients are not going to see their GP or because they are not being referred for urgent tests and scans at hospital,” reports the Daily Mail.
“Another 400 cancers a week are, it is estimated, being missed because breast, cervical and bowel cancer screening has been suspended. For any of these patients, delay can be a death sentence.”
As we previously highlighted, despite many predictions that the NHS would be “overwhelmed” by coronavirus, acute hospital beds across the United Kingdom are four times emptier than normal.
One of the overspill hospitals built to handle with an excess of patients due to coronavirus in the north east remains empty and will never be used.
In addition, the temporary Nightingale hospital in London has “remained largely empty since it opened,” according to HSJ.
Despite all this, the UK government has refused to even suggest when lockdown measures may end.
Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty also said that social distancing measures will have to remain in place until a vaccine is available, something that could take more than a year.
A graph also shows that, when population differences are factored in, Sweden, which hasn’t imposed any mandatory lockdown measures, has virtually the same death rate as England, which has been under lockdown for over a month.
https://summit.news/2020/04/23/professor-warns-cancer-deaths-due-to-covid-disruption-will-be-greater-than-deaths-from-coronavirus/
Vietnam eased social distancing measures Thursday, after reporting no new coronavirus infections for six consecutive days.
After a decisive - and early - response to the pandemic, including mass quarantines and aggressive contact tracing, the Southeast Asian nation has recorded just 268 virus cases and zero deaths, according to official tallies.
Vietnam was one of the first nations to ban flights to and from mainland China and in early February, when it had barely more than a dozen cases, villages with 10,000 people close to the country’s capital Hanoi were placed under quarantine.
After a decisive - and early - response to the pandemic, including mass quarantines and aggressive contact tracing, the Southeast Asian nation has recorded just 268 virus cases and zero deaths, according to official tallies.
Vietnam was one of the first nations to ban flights to and from mainland China and in early February, when it had barely more than a dozen cases, villages with 10,000 people close to the country’s capital Hanoi were placed under quarantine.
Yep.
Government has so much tunnel vision to 'do whatever it takes' to reduce covid deaths it is ignoring everything else.
Government has so much tunnel vision to 'do whatever it takes' to reduce covid deaths it is ignoring everything else.
One of the cancer centres near me has been closed for weeks, however the one I attend is still open although I have been warned that could change at any time. The centre still seems to be busy when I attend, of course temperature checks on anyone entering and social distancing but, fingers crossed, I'm still getting my chemo. As for the 'angels' that work there. Words can't describe just how lucky we are to have'em.
no. Have you got a link to when they announced they would release it at or near the peak?
Got for Vietnam. Another communist country where numbers mean nothing and civil liberties are limited.
lurka
23 Apr 20 11:16
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,279 | Blogger: lurka's blog
no. Have you got a link to when they announced they would release it at or near the peak?
^
No I have no link when they announced anything about when they will end house arrest.
All I have to go in policy changed after a flawed report was put out and Boris said we had to do this to stop NHS being over run.
NHS is no where near being overun
23 Apr 20 11:16
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,279 | Blogger: lurka's blog
no. Have you got a link to when they announced they would release it at or near the peak?
^
No I have no link when they announced anything about when they will end house arrest.
All I have to go in policy changed after a flawed report was put out and Boris said we had to do this to stop NHS being over run.
NHS is no where near being overun
Apr 23, 2020 -- 12:10PM, lux wrote:
A professor at King’s College London has warned that there will be more excess cancer deaths over the next 5 years than the number of people who die from coronavirus in the UK due to the disruption caused by the coronavirus lockdown, which is preventing cancer victims from getting treatment.Richard Sullivan, professor of cancer and global health and director of its Institute of Cancer Policy, said: “The number of deaths due to the disruption of cancer services is likely to outweigh the number of deaths from the coronavirus itself over the next five years.”Many people are avoiding hospitals, partly due to fear of coronavirus and partly due to the NHS implying that people should stay away so as not to burden doctors and nurses.This means that routine cancer screenings have all but stopped and there will be a massive backlog once normality resumes.“The cessation and delay of cancer care will cause considerable avoidable suffering,” said Sullivan. “Cancer screening services have stopped, which means we will miss our chance to catch many cancers when they are treatable and curable, such as cervical, bowel and breast.”People didn’t suddenly stop getting cancer when the coronavirus outbreak started, but now they are not getting treatment.One wonders what the point is in allowing such disruption in the name of saving lives, only to lose more lives to cancer in the long run.“Some stroke and heart attack patients are routinely waiting more than two hours for an ambulance, while 2,300 cancer diagnoses are being missed each week because patients are not going to see their GP or because they are not being referred for urgent tests and scans at hospital,” reports the Daily Mail.“Another 400 cancers a week are, it is estimated, being missed because breast, cervical and bowel cancer screening has been suspended. For any of these patients, delay can be a death sentence.”As we previously highlighted, despite many predictions that the NHS would be “overwhelmed” by coronavirus, acute hospital beds across the United Kingdom are four times emptier than normal.One of the overspill hospitals built to handle with an excess of patients due to coronavirus in the north east remains empty and will never be used.In addition, the temporary Nightingale hospital in London has “remained largely empty since it opened,” according to HSJ.Despite all this, the UK government has refused to even suggest when lockdown measures may end.Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty also said that social distancing measures will have to remain in place until a vaccine is available, something that could take more than a year.A graph also shows that, when population differences are factored in, Sweden, which hasn’t imposed any mandatory lockdown measures, has virtually the same death rate as England, which has been under lockdown for over a month.https://summit.news/2020/04/23/professor-warns-cancer-deaths-due-to-covid-disruption-will-be-greater-than-deaths-from-coronavirus/
apart from the first sentence which isn't a quote, where does he say that it has anything to do with a lockdown? He doesn't. As I said, it has to do with a pandemic virus floating around the place causing people to fear going to hospitals as well as the government discouraging people from seeking treatment, despite there being plenty of capacity. A lockdown reduces spread, reducing the chances of becoming infected generally, but they still aren't coming forward. Zero to do with a lockdown being in place.
Take the word 'lockdown' out of the first sentence and the article is accurate. In Ireland we have capacity too and our CMO is advising people to not to delay seeking treatment.
Apr 23, 2020 -- 12:17PM, InsiderTrader wrote:
Got for Vietnam. Another communist country where numbers mean nothing and civil liberties are limited.
Have you figured out the flaw with the reported UK active cases figure yet ?
Relaxation has to come at some point, but some things need to be in place first imo.
1) Numbers need to be far lower than they are now. Some people seem to be wilfully confusing being past the peak with being out of the woods.
2) Effective plan for shielding the vulnerable. Frankly, based on the evidence so far you can put another tick in the Massive Government Failures column regarding this. Come up with a plan about how to isolate care homes and also how you will segregate and isolate working age vulnerable people and protect them economically too.
3) Have an effective plan to stop the virus spiking again. Stop talking in the future tense about testing numbers and actually deliver for once in your miserable, feckless lives. We will need to be on top of any new infection breakouts and be able to test, contact trace and isolate quickly. Equally, maybe think about testing people entering our shores from elsewhere might be an idea too y'know.
4) Come up with a workable plan of what this relaxation policy is. Maybe be bold and make some necessary changes. All the chatter about deaths from cancer and heart disease mean nothing except the tories have underfunded the NHS for years and under-estimated the effect of this virus, so other services had to suffer to compensate. Doesn't make the decision to prioritise covid treatment was wrong. Equally how many deaths per year can be attributed to pollution. I'm sure we've all seen the pictures of skylines and how much cleaner they are. Are we simply to revert to that and kill thousands more? Let#s not just go back to yesterday because the tea party billionaires want the working class to carry on making them rich.
1) Numbers need to be far lower than they are now. Some people seem to be wilfully confusing being past the peak with being out of the woods.
2) Effective plan for shielding the vulnerable. Frankly, based on the evidence so far you can put another tick in the Massive Government Failures column regarding this. Come up with a plan about how to isolate care homes and also how you will segregate and isolate working age vulnerable people and protect them economically too.
3) Have an effective plan to stop the virus spiking again. Stop talking in the future tense about testing numbers and actually deliver for once in your miserable, feckless lives. We will need to be on top of any new infection breakouts and be able to test, contact trace and isolate quickly. Equally, maybe think about testing people entering our shores from elsewhere might be an idea too y'know.
4) Come up with a workable plan of what this relaxation policy is. Maybe be bold and make some necessary changes. All the chatter about deaths from cancer and heart disease mean nothing except the tories have underfunded the NHS for years and under-estimated the effect of this virus, so other services had to suffer to compensate. Doesn't make the decision to prioritise covid treatment was wrong. Equally how many deaths per year can be attributed to pollution. I'm sure we've all seen the pictures of skylines and how much cleaner they are. Are we simply to revert to that and kill thousands more? Let#s not just go back to yesterday because the tea party billionaires want the working class to carry on making them rich.
IT do you realise that your hospitals can still be overrun very quickly even if you are over the peak? They can be overrun much sooner right now than they could have been before lockdown if you release lockdown now. The lockdown was brought in to flatten the curve. There are two sides to the curve, the upside and the downside, not just one, and you are at a very high point, if not the highest point right now.
Sturgeon talking about lockdown unwinding now on Sky News …..
lurka
23 Apr 20 11:28
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,282 | Blogger: lurka's blog
IT do you realise that your hospitals can still be overrun very quickly even if you are over the peak? They can be overrun much sooner right now than they could have been before lockdown if you release lockdown now. The lockdown was brought in to flatten the curve. There are two sides to the curve, the upside and the downside, not just one, and you are at a very high point, if not the highest point right now.
^
Again show me the science of this please.
Is there even science that shows the current lockdown in place is in the UK is reducing the spread anymore than allowing everyone out with social distancing?
Proper detail please to prove WE NEED to be locked in.
23 Apr 20 11:28
Joined: 25 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 15,282 | Blogger: lurka's blog
IT do you realise that your hospitals can still be overrun very quickly even if you are over the peak? They can be overrun much sooner right now than they could have been before lockdown if you release lockdown now. The lockdown was brought in to flatten the curve. There are two sides to the curve, the upside and the downside, not just one, and you are at a very high point, if not the highest point right now.
^
Again show me the science of this please.
Is there even science that shows the current lockdown in place is in the UK is reducing the spread anymore than allowing everyone out with social distancing?
Proper detail please to prove WE NEED to be locked in.
no the plan isn't working ,the nhs was supposed to still have capability whilst carrying on treating no cirus patients ,not to be not over run through people completely Ignoring going to hospital, number of lives in danger through hospitals been over run are now in danger because of people not attending hospital and who can blame them,given handjob has given them 6,78,reason why not to attend
as usual its not foooking rocket science if hancock advised you not to go to hospital for a variety of reasons before this started, who in their right mind would attend when the virus is rife in hospital and even nhs workers in full ppe are afraid of attending
as usual its not foooking rocket science if hancock advised you not to go to hospital for a variety of reasons before this started, who in their right mind would attend when the virus is rife in hospital and even nhs workers in full ppe are afraid of attending
Most on here bigging this whole thing up are benefitting from it in some form, so trying to reason with them is futile
Waste of time, either got shares in vaccine companies or they are sitting at home only having to worry about one visit to the supermarket each week
Waste of time, either got shares in vaccine companies or they are sitting at home only having to worry about one visit to the supermarket each week
Or we don't want ourselves or our loved ones to die so the rich capitalists get their way and force everyone back to work when it's not safe to do so...
Apr 23, 2020 -- 10:56AM, lurka wrote:
I don't believe those Nightingales are currently capable of operating anywhere near capacity. You need all the equipment and trained staff, not just to set up a hospital.But if there's capacity in non-covid hospitals then there is nothing stopping people getting treatment right now, so no need to release lockdown. Lockdown has nothing to do with it. Releasing it will only increase spread and the chances of getting covid and thus the fear that leads people not to get treatment. Doesn't stack up. Stay in lockdown until your numbers fall to trackable case levels and people will have good reason not to fear covid and be more willing to get treatment for non-covid illnesses.
There's no reason for anyone in reasonable health under 60 to fear corona, the fear is just perpetuated by drama queens like you sadly
theres 100,s in a hole in the ground might give you an argument,and that's during a lockdown,if the 500,000 was anyway near right on current deaths that would be up to 10,000 under 60,s with no underlying conditions
Of course any sane society would protect the "vulnerable " and give the necessary support to them encouraging isolation rather than enforcing itt which no civilised society should do preventing a basic human right whilst allowing others to go about their business protecting destroying the economy... but we aren't in a sane society.
We have hundreds of thousands of deaths per year linked to socio economic factors in the Uk ranging from heart disease to cancer linked to lack of exercise, air pollution, poverty,smoking, drinking etc but sheep like 1st time poster ignore these things and focus on the dastardly virus with far fewer fatalities.
In years gone by the vast majority of the population bleated like sheep with a rousing crescendo of bleats regarding the earth being flat or the earth being the epicentre of the universe and most concurred it was " normal " to think this way. The OP quite correctly points out far more deaths are likely to arise as part of the so called " cure " relating to the virus than a virus that kills less than 0.1% of the under 65s , but there are enough stupid people in society to think otherwise sadly. It's why for eg billions of people follow a religion despite it clearly being a form of insanity but of course no politician will go against the lockdown trend now as they don't wish to be seen as " murderers" despite the statistics pointing to far more losing their life as a consequence of their actions locking people away.
The lockdown was apparently due to us looking for a vaccine, but the medical community hasnt got a clue if a vaccine can either be prepared or even if it is ready in x number of years, whether it will be effective against numerous strains of the virus which are now widely accepted to exist. The crowning turd on this putrid pile of insanity is the fact studies being done in Italy reveal the apparent cure " ventilators " are causing more harm than good so to summarise... we are in lockdown to not stretch the health service where treatment may do more harm than good and a vaccine that may or may not exist. They can't even agree on face masks yet the whole population is expected to remain indoors banging pots and pans at 8pm for a disease that kills less people under 60 than road accidents and even that doesn't work as the elderly in care homes are dropping like flies anyway
We have hundreds of thousands of deaths per year linked to socio economic factors in the Uk ranging from heart disease to cancer linked to lack of exercise, air pollution, poverty,smoking, drinking etc but sheep like 1st time poster ignore these things and focus on the dastardly virus with far fewer fatalities.
In years gone by the vast majority of the population bleated like sheep with a rousing crescendo of bleats regarding the earth being flat or the earth being the epicentre of the universe and most concurred it was " normal " to think this way. The OP quite correctly points out far more deaths are likely to arise as part of the so called " cure " relating to the virus than a virus that kills less than 0.1% of the under 65s , but there are enough stupid people in society to think otherwise sadly. It's why for eg billions of people follow a religion despite it clearly being a form of insanity but of course no politician will go against the lockdown trend now as they don't wish to be seen as " murderers" despite the statistics pointing to far more losing their life as a consequence of their actions locking people away.
The lockdown was apparently due to us looking for a vaccine, but the medical community hasnt got a clue if a vaccine can either be prepared or even if it is ready in x number of years, whether it will be effective against numerous strains of the virus which are now widely accepted to exist. The crowning turd on this putrid pile of insanity is the fact studies being done in Italy reveal the apparent cure " ventilators " are causing more harm than good so to summarise... we are in lockdown to not stretch the health service where treatment may do more harm than good and a vaccine that may or may not exist. They can't even agree on face masks yet the whole population is expected to remain indoors banging pots and pans at 8pm for a disease that kills less people under 60 than road accidents and even that doesn't work as the elderly in care homes are dropping like flies anyway
o.1% or near 2% of 500,000 if the modelling were proved to be correct,
under lockdown 20,000 was considered a result could be nearer 50,000,imagine if the 500,000 herd immunity figure was that far out the wrong way,as well as the small proportion of a big number of under 60,s,plenty of evidence including the PM, OF YOUNG PEOPLE surviving but been absolute knocked for 6 beat the shoite out of by the virus,not something you want to join a queue to get,like was mooted 2 months ago
under lockdown 20,000 was considered a result could be nearer 50,000,imagine if the 500,000 herd immunity figure was that far out the wrong way,as well as the small proportion of a big number of under 60,s,plenty of evidence including the PM, OF YOUNG PEOPLE surviving but been absolute knocked for 6 beat the shoite out of by the virus,not something you want to join a queue to get,like was mooted 2 months ago
As for some other things: I'm grumpy that your lame approach has cost us Wimbledon this year, even if generally I agree with Marat Safin that grass is for cows.
So when did LAWN Tennis become something for cows, is that Sexist comment
?
So moving on from sexism to racism edy, I hear you are a Kraut.
I was thinking of having red cabbage instead of rice with my chilli tonight. If you are not opposed to my positive discrimination do you have any tips on how to cook the kraut Kraut?
I was going to steam it, maybe thrown in some peeled and chopped apple?
Oh and finally do you regard our Queen as your Queen being German and all that?
So when did LAWN Tennis become something for cows, is that Sexist comment
?So moving on from sexism to racism edy, I hear you are a Kraut.
I was thinking of having red cabbage instead of rice with my chilli tonight. If you are not opposed to my positive discrimination do you have any tips on how to cook the kraut Kraut?
I was going to steam it, maybe thrown in some peeled and chopped apple?
Oh and finally do you regard our Queen as your Queen being German and all that?
No questions or comments from the health secretary about this.
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