Salmond wins legal challenge

it is rather rude - but are there not several oustanding allegations and investigations  relating to the salmon

It seems this has been more of a legal technicality rather than a sexual harrassment let off.

well he's playing it up, treetop. I wonder if he will be at Ayr today?

I don't think he has been let off the allegations (maybe I am wrong)  wasn't this about the WAY the civil servant was involved with the 2 witnesses.

i was hoping some Scottish brethren would be keeping us informed of such matters, moisok. Trilby is currently nursing a shipyard; so he is excused

"legal challenge", moisok?
there are other matters pending i believe

you cannot rely on any of that lot the other side of the wall. they are far to busy enjoying themselves - I know what they are truly like - two of my best mates were from glasgeeee  - talk about knowing how to party - I have the many hangovers to look back on!!!

" treetop • January 8, 2019 12:52 PM GMT
It seems this has been more of a legal technicality rather than a sexual harrassment let off. "
^^^^ This. Basically they didn't find he did no wrong, they found the procedure followed was incorrect.

We've all been there. It's tits first.

This was nothing to do with the ongoing criminal investigation into his behaviour.

I posted this on the politics forum:

The Scottish government has admitted acting unlawfully while investigating sexual harassment claims against Alex Salmond.

Allegations against the former first minister, which he denies, were made to the Scottish government a year ago.

The government has now admitted it breached its own guidelines by appointing an investigating officer who had "prior involvement" in the case.
As a result, it conceded defeat in its legal fight with Mr Salmond.

Mr Salmond's case focused entirely on the fairness of the government's procedures and will have no bearing on a separate police inquiry into the allegations, which is still ongoing.

safe to say relations between Salmond and Sturgeon are frostier than a sit down between Craig Levein and Derek McInnes

Sounds more like a civil war within the SNP being fought at taxpayers expense this .

Salmond has form for that.
He famously lied that he had received legal advice about Scotland remaining in the EU after independence.
People asked to see the advice, so he went to court to defend his right to not have to show ADVICE THAT DIDN'T EXIST AS HE'D LIED.
(He's a ridiculous liar, he's shameless).
He lost and the taxpayer had to cover costs of £20,000.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/10/snp-eu-legal-advice_n_4075966.html

Insufferable proven lair and bigot. Great guy.

Is he sill doing his Russian TV Chat Show?
Got a bit boring with so many SNP guests.

I never watched it. Whenever that hateful arrogant c-ckwomble comes on the TV there is a risk flying objects might lead me to have to make a new high value electronics purchase..

God bless Theresa and all her loyal bloonose idiots!..she should reintroduce the poll tax..but experiment with her subjects in
Bonny Jockland.

Ackie you are so sad..if its not referees(non masonic)..its the bbc channel4...does Tommy Robinson have your e-mail.
Laxley-Lennon ring any bells?

Oh dear that'll be a Scottish separatist, and straight off the bat he'll be lying repeating a grievance that has been shown to be totally made up 1000 times.
The Scottish Tories asked for the poll tax early as there was an old rates reevalation in Scotland that was going to be brutal and they actually thought it would be popular, about which they were wrong. This of course isn't chippy and grievancy enough.
So the lie is that the nasty tories trialed it on the Scots in some sort of display of contempt for Scotland. This is the sort of rubbish the hysterically chippy individuals who are Scottish nationalist believe...

Do your carers know you still are online?

You have made a fool of yourself...thought it would be popular in Scotland????..you are mental.

Do you walk leaning over to one side or are the huge chips equally balanced?

sofiakenny
Ackie you are so sad..if its not referees(non masonic)..its the bbc channel4...does Tommy Robinson have your e-mail.
Laxley-Lennon ring any bells?

Can anyone make sense of this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3251300.stm
"Scotland was seething with indignation at the ratings revaluation and with the unfairness of elderly single pensioners having to pay the same rates as a family of working adults living next door.

"For Scottish opinion at that time said: 'Look, if we can have a new system called the Community Charge or poll tax which can come into effect in Scotland now, we are damned if we are going to wait another year just because the English aren't ready.' That was the feeling at the time."

Kennybhoy seems incapable of reading and understanding posts.
Anthrax syndrome possibly? (He's from Aberdeen)

He now quotes the same BBC he slanders day to day to try and back up his argument, you honestly couldn`t make it up

Definitely not the full shilling

^ just checking gives the Scots a little history lesson and that’s the thanks he gets , deary me

lfc you are another "know all" who knows sweet fa about Scotland.

no one likes to be thankful

What was it that JC said that wasn't the truth?

Just Checking should try checking the facts before producing "quotes" from the BBC, an establishment that he slags off on a daily basis of being  biased and unreliable and an organisation which tells everything but the truth.

.... talk about contradictions

That Thatcher and her government didn`t use Scotland as a testing ground for the Poll Tax. Ok, if the BBC states that then it must be true

Quoting the BBC to back up his argument

That must be the biggest contradiction in the history of the forum

Anyone around at that time will remember the facts as JC pointed out.
You doing down the BBC whilst normally championing them strikes me as the same as what you are accusing JC of.
Of course JC has no case to answer as the BBC then was much different to what it is now.

Stop twisting the facts Aka, I have never championed the BBC news or political programmes so stop making things up.

And the report he Googled, copied and pasted are totally off the mark.

Anybody who lived in Scotland at the time knows that the proposed introduction of the "Poll Tax" was highly unpopular by the vast majority of the population.

Doesn't alter the fact that JC was referencing the BBC of 30 years ago so why bring up what he, and loads of other people, think of it now?

If you can`t see the irony of him quoting the BBC then you need a humour transplant.

.... apart from that he is talking a load of bollocks as usual.

No irony in him quoting the BBC of 30 years ago.

Anyways getting back to the original subject how pi55ed off with Salmond is Sturgeon?
Given that he ignored her advice on his Russian TV show as did a few SNP MPs are the rumours of a split in the ranks true?

Oh, the BBC were ok then. And here was I thinking that they were left of central throughout their history. Thanks for letting me know.

I don't think anyone with an open mind is in any doubt that over the years the BBC has become a lefties haven.

There is political infighting in all political parties. Always been that way but nothing compares to the split in ranks of your party, the Tories that is and not the Liberal Party or Labour Party for whom you vote for, given the circumstances

I don't think anyone with an open mind is in any doubt that over the years the BBC has become a lefties haven.

I don`t dispute that and never have done.

We are living in a different world than the one we were brought up in and like your good self, there is a lot of things I can`t comprehend or ever will do.

And what has any of that got to do with my post
I asked a quite simple couple of questions but you go on the defence. Why?

Because you are obsessed with the SNP and no matter what they do, you will never give them credence for it.

I know the Tory party is badly split as is the Labour party but this rumoured split in the SNP is something knew.
Up until the start of 2018 the SNP acted as one with everyone towing the party line but nowadays a few have openly questioned the indy2ref for instance.

Not obsessed Mac just detest the party for how it has badly split Scotland.

Whether you like her or not, Nicola Sturgeon is a great debater and one clever cookie. It`s a pity that May, the worst PM since Ramsay MacDonald, didn`t have some of her attributes when dealing with the EU bigwigs. They have screwed her and the whole of the UK on the negotiations.

Well Sturgeon certainly has a brass neck, I'll give you that.

I can assure you Aka that an Indy2 vote would prove a huge mistake. There are many members who oppose it in private but it`s good politics that they don`t wash their linen in public like the Tories and Labour.

I don`t know about you but I am sick to death hearing about Brexit. The majority voted LEAVE so why don`t they just get on with it!

Nicola Sturgeon is a strong leader, unlike May.

... was that a half hearted compliment

The reason I asked you is that a neighbours relative lives in Edinburgh and is a fanatical SNP activist.
Fanatical but not of the violent sort as that word sometimes suggests.
He told us that Salmond wants the SNP to speed up the process and demand indyref2.
He also said that Salmond has loads of supporters both in Holyrood and Westminster who would like to see him back in charge.

You can't fault Sturgeon on her public performances.
Even when confronted with truth over fiction she never wilts.
Take fracking. Told us it was banned in Scotland.
Turned out it wasn't. Her response? It was the SNPs preferred position, move on.
Salmond the same but it doesn't alter the fact that the SNP haven't delivered in Scotland.

He will know more than us Aka and it may be true.

Love him or hate him, Wee Lec has played a blinder here in the first leg and I hope he's innocent in the second

Here's the full sp for those not quite sure of exactly what's happening …

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428570
.
Who is Leslie Evans, permanent secretary to the Scottish government?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46797441

He is 100% correct when he says Evans needs to step down for prior involvement, bias and (imo) possible collusion.

Gawn yersel ya wee sleekit!

Oh, forgot to add, better stock up on popcorn as we watch the SNP implode with infighting

I knew before I bothered to educate them that the chances of any Scottish natioanlist changing their fixated mind on one of the favourite little grievances would be mission impossible. I did not as such quote "the bbc" I quoted Malcolm Rifkind who was REPORTED in the BBC. A very basic understanding of English comprehension when reading the link would have helped I suppose. He was the Scottish Secretary when the Poll Tax was introduced, so knows something about why it was introduced 1 year earlier in Scotland, or so you would think. That is what he said.

Let's introduce Occam's razor to this. Did the Scottsh Tory MPs demand the Poll Tax be brought to Scotland 1 year before the UK because
1. They thought it might do them good and was fairer and would be popular?
2. They are nasty Tory villains who hate Scotland and wanted to commit electoral suicide but their sick desire to "experiment" on Scotland was too much?

The head Scottish Tory at the time says it's 1, any common sense at all would indicate it's 1 but of course in the unshakeable frozen mind of the Scottish separatist, it HAS to be 2 as 2 is what they want to believe. The SNP and dominant Labour at the time would have encouraged this no matter how untrue as this is of course politically helpful, and as we all know, there is NOTHING the petty sh1ts in the SNP won't turn into a chippy "we're being treated unfairly" grievance.

No one doubts it was unpopular, that's not what I said ..

It's always very difficult speaking to an SNP supporter, you have to explain everything at a basic slow level...

Thanks for educating us thickos, I`ve now worked it out.

You believe what the BBC print or report as long as you agree with it and it supports your agenda.

Rifkind was part of the Tory cover up and I wouldn`t believe him if he told me which day of the week it was.

You are digging yourself into a bigger hole and it`s making you look even more stupid.

The Poll Tax was tried out on Scotland first to see how the public reacted before implementing it in England and Wales. THAT IS FACT.

Dear ****ing god the fact it's on the BBC is a total irrelevance, it's not a BBC opinion or them spinning things, it's them quoting verbatim what the person in charge said. To say I now support the BBCs journalstic stance because of them repeating what someone said 15 years ago is frankly idiotic, anyone can see that.
If you think they are misquoting him then that's just blind rejection of facts you don't like and totally mental, and you have absolutely no grounds to believe they are other than the usual behaviour of Scottish separatists to deny anything they don't want to believe, and a stubborn refusal to actually deal with reality.

"digging myself a hole". No I'm using facts, citing links, and a coherent logical argument to back up why the facts available seem to stand up to what most likely happened. You have "waaaaaa the nasty Tories hate Scotland". Well done, that's the impartial observer convinced...

So ok let's assume they did try it to see how the public reacted. The public absolutely hated it. They then implemented it in England without changing a single aspect of it. So how does that make any sense? How does "they used Scotland as guinea pigs" tie in with "they payed no attention to the response"? It doesn't make any sense.

The poll tax actually made a lot of sense. As touched on above, why should an old widow in one house pay same as their neighbour with a similar house containing 4 working professionals? How is that fair? You can see why the Tories thought it might be liked, there is clearly and element of fairness to it.

[b]"digging myself a hole". No I'm using facts, citing links, and a coherent logical argument to back up why the facts available seem to stand up to what most likely happened. You have "waaaaaa the nasty Tories hate Scotland". Well done, that's the impartial observer convinced...[/b]

No, you are not using facts. You are digging up statements to suit your argument. You should live up to your username and check the real facts before uttering a load of bollocks on a subject you obviously know nothing about.

The Poll Tax was introduced in Scotland first and was known throughout the Thatcher government as the "Scottish Experiment", a testing ground before implementing it in England and Wales.

And you don`t need to take my word on it. Go the National Archive and read the released 1985 memos between Thatcher and Oliver Letwin, one of her senior policy advisers, which are now in the public domain.

I never said Rifkind was misquoted. I said I don`t believe a word that he says.

So I`ll ask you a simple question. What do you believe to be true. Words quoted from Malcolm Rifkind or printed documents exchanged between Thatcher and Letwin which are in the National Archives?

What will the impartial observer conclude? That you are right or I am wrong and the documents in the National Archive are fake

Citing facts, my ****. You are blinded by your bias and arrogance.

Yes and if you google that you'll see that Scottish Conservates and George Younger were pushing for it and wanted it and talked Thatcher into doing it. That some others in her government agreed with it is absolutely irrelevant,and that Labour and the grievance obsessed bigots in the SNP ignore the former and focus on the latter is irrelevant.

Did the papaers reveal Scottish Tories were strongly pushing for it? Yes. So why did they do this? Becuase they thought wrongly it would be popular? (Makes sense) or that they deliberately wanted to become far less popular? (Makes no sense).

There is of course absolutely no possible argument you'll accept that will shake your unflinching belief in your grievances. This is the mind of a Scottish Nationalist.

The argument is whether the Thatcher government used Scotland as a testing ground for the Poll Tax.

You falsely claim that it didn`t and you post trivial links from the BBC website quoting Rifkind to back up your pish.

I claim that it did and the official documents in the National Archive from Letwin to Thatcher prove this beyond doubt.

You are a typical "know all" and can`t see the truth.

I win, you lose and that is fact as the impartial observer will conclude.

There is of course absolutely no possible argument you'll accept that will shake your unflinching belief in your grievances. This is the mind of a Little Englander.

You've proved nothing. I'd have more sense debating a rock.
Fact: The Scottish Tories desperately wanted the Poll TAx.
Fact: Any common sense would indicate they must've thought it would be popular.
Scotsman: "However, the government papers from 1985 published today by the National Archive reveal how the Scottish Conservatives and then Scottish secretary George Younger persuaded Mrs Thatcher to introduce the community charge – known to most as the poll tax – rather than an alternative levy based on property."
BBC:"Secret cabinet papers have now confirmed it was Mr Younger, Mrs Thatcher's Scottish Secretary from 1979 to 1986, who fought to introduce the community charge early.
A memo written by Mr Letwin in 1985, four years before it came into force, states that Mr Younger, who died in 2003, was "extremely keen to use Scotland as a trail blazer for the pure residence charge".
He was also keen to avoid a further disastrous revaluation for the domestic rates system."

It's obvious from this it was the SCottish Tories pushing for it which I've repeated many times and you are incapable of accepting, and this ties in with the 100% reasonable conclusion they thought it would be a good thing.

If you're going to use the word "Trail Blaze" as implicitly negative in some way that just shows your mindset. Can't take away the chippy can we.

He`s quoting The Scotsman now but not the full article and the editorial judgement with the heading, "Tories used Scotland as poll tax guinea pig", just a little extraction which he tries to twist to suit his nonsensical argument.

Wee, sleekit, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!

Check the National Archive. The documents are all there where Thatcher and Letwin decide to use Scotland as a "testing ground" - there words not mine, but hey ho, they are all fakes and history is wrong. Not Checking told us so. And the Thatcher government in Whitehall did not refer to it as the "Scottish Experiment" - Why? - because Not Checking told us so.

Or google "Scotland Used As Testing Ground For Poll Tax" and every single report or editorial concludes the same as The Scotsman did. But, all of them are obviously wrong. Why? Because NC states so.

And who said that about guinea pig? This is just so painful but I'll try and help you. The "guinea pig" line is merelyt a direct quote from a grievance spinning SNP bigot, used as a clickbait headline. Do I need to explain this to you? Big whoop an SNP guy and I (presume SNP loving) Scottish nationalist agree. What a shocker!

I give up this is, as expected, impossible. Any reasonable person can see what I've said and all the many quotes backing it up and the coherent argument as to why.
YOu'd have to be totally mental to think the SCottish Tories demanded the Poll tax not because they though it might be good for them, but to punish Scotland in some bizarre nasty irrational way as all Tories hate Scotland, but that's where we are. That's what SNP guys believe, professional victims, and nothing will shake that.

Given you are quoting an SNP guy's phrase used in a headline as "proof" (dear god...) and have not made any attempt to even tackle my primary argument as to why the Scottish Tories wanted the Poll Tax, which is what this is all about. I can only repeat myself so many times. Does being a victim never get boring?

So the lie is that the nasty tories trialed it on the Scots in some sort of display of contempt for Scotland. This is the sort of rubbish the hysterically chippy individuals who are Scottish nationalist believe...

The Tories did use Scotland as a testing ground for the Poll Tax FACT

The evidence is all contained in the National Archive documents which even you should be able to read, if you took the time to locate them instead of quoting excerpts from the BBC to suit your argument.

Here is the text from just one of the documents from Oliver Letwin to Thatcher in November 1985 which proves so.

"You could make all the changes to grants, non-domestic rates, capital controls and housing benefit in England and Wales, but try out the residential charge in a pure form only in Scotland, and leave domestic rates intact for the time being in the rest of the country."

He added: "This has obvious attractions: No-one can say you are being insufficiently radical, since you will be curing the disease of the non-domestic rates (which was the worst element of the old system) and trying out an extremely radical system in a significant part of the country.


"By the same token, no-one can accuse you of being rash, since you will be reserving your options on domestic rates in England and Wales."

"If the Scottish experiment worked, it could make a pure residence charge look sensible rather than extreme, and thereby pave the way for its introduction in England and Wales."

"I therefore recommend that, if you are not willing to move to a pure residence charge in England and Wales immediately, you should introduce a mixture of taxes but should rather use the Scots as a trailblazer for the real thing."

Whether Thatcher`s government did this out of pure contempt for Scotland is unlikely (only you claim this) and the main reason was as stated, by Letwin in his memos to Thatcher, as a test or experiment.  

Even a Viz reader like yourself should be able to read and comprehend this but I am now beginning to doubt it.

I have come across some dumplings over the years but you take the biscuit. Your arrogance is beyond comprehension.

I am off to the pub now for loads and loads of rich Malt bought by my racing profits of today.

You are incapable of acceping the Tories would do anything for what they believe is a good and positive reason, despite all the evidence, and are convinced everything is "anti Scottish". Tories are the bogeyman. You probably check for them under your bed just before your pass out. End of story.

You are incapable of acceping the Tories would do anything for what they believe is a good and positive reason, despite all the evidence, and are convinced everything is "anti Scottish". Tories are the bogeyman. You probably check for them under your bed just before your pass out. End of story.

You should be on the stage. Replace Tories with SNP in above tripe and you have summed up yourself in one go. Oh the irony

By the way, I don`t pass out at night, I can hold my drink unlike you little old wine drinkers.

Who you voting for now? Liberals again? No they are ***** according to you. Labour again? No they are commie ***** now that your hero Blair packed in. Doesn't leave much. You would vote for the Devil if there was something in it for yourself.

Must go now my delicious Malt will be waiting.

I think there was a memo to that document that claimed that Scotland
@ “ have their snouts well and truly in the trough “

The mightymac seems to have left that bit out ..

Despite this it was merely coincidental that it was introduced a year early in Scotland ,
Scottish sec George younger lobbied for it to avoid an expensive review of the old rates , that was the reason , of course any snags could be looked at as things progressed ,
This became a problem because the Scots didn’t like paying  the tax , fair enough they’re like that

That's what I've said many times above LFC, but MM won't accept it as it doesn't portray the tories as total b&stards. Doesn't fit the SNP grievance.

JC i think it might be too subtle for migntymac , SNP types  are like that , oh well

We're not getting much sense out of Mac now what's he going to be like after a night in the pub.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum. lfc and JC, identical twins separated at birth, with a combined IQ of less than 100. 

That's what I've said many times above LFC, but MM won't accept it

Where on this thread have I said that George Younger didn`t push it forward? Exactly, I have never disputed that. It is totally irrelevant to the argument. You two claim that Scotland wasn`t used as an "experiment" with the Poll Tax, despite the evidence of the memos between Letwin and Thatcher, which are in the National Archives, which proves beyond doubt that it was.

Take the blinkers off and check your facts before you both start slandering a Nation.

lfc comes out with wide sweeping statements like someone from One Flew Over The Cuckoo`s Nest which is so embarrassing at times. Remember this is the guy who is on record as saying he doesn`t give a damn about people living in poverty.

JC is so arrogant and full of hate that he can`t see the woods for the trees and him quoting the BBC to try and substantiate his failed argument must be the funniest thing in the history of the forum

Hinge and ******* Bracket

This is all very senseless from Mac ,

alcohol can be a terrible thing , why do people indulge in it ?