If the Vegan population grows will food producing animals become competition ??

VeganPower They would be put out to forage like nature intended and not force fed soya and corn

Exactly bobweenit wouldn't eat anything from any animal that isn't grass or pasture raised the hormones that get passed onto us are a major cause directly/inderectly of our main killers as people the science is there for anyone to check.

proven science?

Aye check out the causes of the biggest killers in Western society and nearly all can be traced back to elevated insulin growth like factor (IGF1) levels which are caused by animal protein consumption,the IGF1 in commercial milk is comes along with other steroidal/hormonal by products which are damaging to testosterone in us blokes.

Plus animal protein and fat consumption increase the risk of insulin resistance and high basal insulin which indirectly accounts for endless illnesses.

Dec 8, 2018 -- 4:40AM, Callisto-moon wrote:

proven science?

Once you get into it makes it easy to stop sticking it down your neck just do some searches.
This time last year I was living on animal products buying good quality organic and pasture raised steak from a farm shop where what you ate was in the fields as you drove in,organic cream,milk,cheese and more than 200g fat every day.

Forgot to mention Calcium which is a massive selling con in dairy products causing allsorts of issues in the body and excess calcium intake actually causes osteoporosis the opposite of the opposite of the Dairy industry's selling point i.e the calcium for your bones bullshyte.

*should've been 1 opposite of*

so what happens to the animals?

alsp whats the health difference between vegan and veggy

There was some noise in the garden last night !!  It may have been the wind in the trees (we have lots of them)

OR?????  are the vegetables plotting a yellow vest revolution??

Do trees count as veg?  The squirrels eat them around here!!!

Trees are the king of the plant world.

Not all vegetation are edible by human being as some are truly poisonous. I also believe this will go against the grain of the creator of the universe. Vegans are similar to cyclists on the roads; accept they exist, and manage them accordingly.

cows and chickens would die out if we cant eat them,

unless we can bet on them racing.

If cows and chickens are out of the food chain some humans could die out too. If so, less humans to grow veggies thus less veggies for vegans resulting in less vegans as they could die out too. It's a (vicious) circle.

Cows and chickens would not "die out" if mankind became vegan, there would just be far fewer of them.

I'm pleased to report that the range of vegan-friendly foods on offer in supermarkets has risen markedly in the last year or two. :)

I agree there would be less cows and chickens until they eventually die out, no? The universe is controlled by human beings, and if cows and chickens are not for human consumption there will be no need or use for them ie no reason for their existence, as they will only be competitors to us humans for food.

Profit orientated entrepreneurs will always come up with products if there are markets for them. Let's hope the proliferation of more vegan products does not mean some are not kosher.

Have tried vegan type burgers and the likes will never do this again that in itself is a marketing ploy to convince and satisfy those who would like to or could be convinced but think they can't live without meat,agree with impossible about the 'profit orientated entrepreneurs' scumbags galore in the food industry.

cows and chickens wold be of no use so surely they would die off.

also why make fake meat products?

if you not eating meat then why not just enjoy the veg in its purest form rather than making it look like meat.

although I had a spicy bean burger that I liked

Some monks in South East Asia are not allowed to eat meat because of their religion, but they do need protein to help them last out the day. hence, protein based products made to look like meat eg pork, chicken, duck, etc, are very common and liked as some are very tasty and filling.

I firmly believe some of us need to get a grip or re-evaluate our way of life. And like most things moderation is the way forward similar to betting on horses; chicken sausages ain't bad if one does not overcook them as they can get a bit tough and dry, if so.

There are people in the world struggling to gather sufficient food to survive eg famine and war-torn areas, etc; there are those only eating the purest of food eg organic, wild not farmed, etc; there are those eating the most expensive food (not necessary) the best eg cavier, wagu beef, etc.

Here's an article from Stian Karlsen.



Will Animals Go Extinct If The World Becomes Vegan?
By Stian Karlsen

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A very common question from meat eaters is that of what would happen to animals if vegans had their way. Would they become extinct if we all stopped eating them?

First, this makes the assumption that a life in captivity, torture and slaughter is beneficial over not being born in the first place.

Second, people often act like we’re doing the animals a big favor, and that we’ve created some sort of mutual bond, wherein we breed and house them, and in return, they “give” us their flesh and skin to eat and wear. I don’t recall them ever signing up for that.



Justification
The reason there are so many farm animals to begin with, is because humans create (breed) them. While I can’t speak for any individual cow, I assume that being bred, abused and killed isn’t very desirable. If the cow was never born, she’d never have any thoughts on the matter.

So please don’t act like we’re doing this because it’s the best thing for the animals. That’s a preposterous justification at best.

Going extinct
If there were no money in farm animals anymore, the meat and dairy industry wouldn’t bother breeding and feeding them either. That makes sense, and is likely a reality we would have to face.

Not breeding such extreme numbers, the animal population would definitely dwindle into smaller numbers.

Some animals could make it in the wild, while others couldn’t. To those lucky enough to be released, at least they’d have a chance compared with none at all.

Most, though, would probably be killed. But if the world went vegan, there at least wouldn’t be another batch of animals ready to take their place, only to keep the misery machine going.

The bottom line is that we would cease to breed animals into a cruel and unjust system meant only to exploit and kill.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that if it was me, and my life and date of death were absolutely determined, I might be inclined to die. Rather that, than live a life of suffering, only to be killed anyway.

Will vegans be happy if farm animals go extinct?
Farm animals are often genetically modified to grow, produce and give as much as possible, as fast as possible. This, in turn, results in a lot of pain on the animals part, and it’s not natural. Think for example of the chicken who’s body is so huge that her legs, bones and joints can’t bear the weight.

They spend their entire, highly stressed, lives in concentration camps, and they will always be killed, no exceptions.

To keep the cycle going, humans destroy giant areas of wild animal habitats, so that the farm animals can graze. This, of course, threathens the existence of the animals who were already living there. Of course, we also outright kill wild animals to protect our livestock, which also leads to extinction.

Wolves, for example, are now an endangered species.

The meat and dairy industry also produces extreme amounts of waste, which has a huge impact on resources and the environment. We’re literally talking **** in the water supply.

The average dairy cow produces around 120 pounds of manure per day, equivalent to that of 20-40 people. Besides polluting the water we drink with bacteria, antibiotics, ammonia etc; this type of waste can contribute to poor air quality, greenhouse gases and smog (among other things).

Because farm animals stand in their own excrement all day, they are pumped full of antibiotics so they don’t get sick and die. This practice, over time, makes antibiotics less effective for use in humans, and as you know, antibiotics has been and still is a pinnacle of modern healthcare. Losing that, would be devastating.

It’s not the right question to ask
Regardless of what would happen to the animals of we all went vegan, asking about extinction isn’t really that relevant.

The bottom line is that if some species went extinct, that does nothing to justify the cruelty taking place here and now. Nor does it do anything about the detrimental effects the meat and dairy industry has on our air, water and environment.

And it certainly doesn’t address the animals we are driving to extinction through ruining natural habitats to make room for this industry to stay alive.

Food is food,...it goes in one end and comes out the other. Stop complicating something that is obvious and transparent. It is nothing like Brexit (complex) and Brexit is Britain specific.

Brexit?

What's Brexit got to do with veganism?

Nothing. Similarly, what has veganism to do with food? It is just another form of substinence for those with a penchant for non-animal products by a very selective group of people.

Lots of vegans avoid animal products on health grounds.

It's got nothing to do with animal rights or cruelty.

why were they protesting at that steak house then?

I'm surprised you can't work that out or yourself Callisto-Moon

it was all to do with 'me too'   well  'look at me too'   hope this helps

It would be interesting to know the percentages of ethical vegans compared to those who chose the diet purely for its health benefits.

Dec 8, 2018 -- 6:50PM, impossible123 wrote:

Nothing. Similarly, what has veganism to do with food? It is just another form of substinence for those with a penchant for non-animal products by a very selective group of people.

That selective group is growing rapidly and will take over in 50 to 75 years

there is another group - sorry to p on your parade

anyway

will spurs hang on two this leed

Dec 8, 2018 -- 9:21PM, bobweenit wrote:

Dec  8, 2018 --  6:50PM, impossible123 wrote:Nothing. Similarly, what has veganism to do with food? It is just another form of substinence for those with a penchant for non-animal products by a very selective group of people.That selective group is growing rapidly and will take over in 50 to 75 years

Think the meat and dairy industries will have something to say about that they've been in beds with our governments for decades plenty waking up though and numbers growing rapidly as you say,think alot of people are just looking around their families who are living with illness from their 30s onwards and look for something new.

you seem clued up Denzil nice to see! Glad your laying of the IGF, leave as it was intended to grow calves not humans

I actually prefer the vegan milk alternatives, some of the flavoured ones are delicious.

Yeah they are. Never really like Dairy milk and it gets pushed on you so much as a nipper you grow  accustomed to it

this may upset the 'community'

I do not think we will all become vegetarian, despite it's claimed health benefits.


That is because animals are too tasty for their own good. I mean roast beef, bacon, cod, Kentucky chicken all very tasty.


It me feel guilty myself because I love animals. I try to make some recompense by donating to compassioninworldfarming,


which accepts we eat animals, but must try to give them some sort of life and a painless death.



In the unlikely event we did become all vegetarians, we do not need to release all of them into the wild, just stop breeding them.


Cattle, sheep and pigs would not do bad in the wild in our country if they can find enough food. There no natural predators


in this country.


the last was the wold but these are extinct or have been  turned into dogs by breeding, so we would have to kill some wild


cattle, sheep or pigs on compassionate grounds or they would starve, oh I forget we can still keep sheep for their wool

wold wb wolf

The animals we release would never become competition to us, because we have guns and they do not.

The last time these food producing animals roamed wild us humans had hardly started, they only had a few Neanderthals

with spears to deal with, until we worked out the idea of and catching and keeping them, and breeding them for food.

We'd need the animal manure for fertiliser for the plants

UBLE/REGY - "The last time these food producing animals roamed wild us humans had hardly started, they only had a few Neanderthals"

Biggish herd of free-roaming food-producing Longhorn cattle on the Knepp Estate just down the road from me - https://knepp.co.uk/longhorn-cattle/

".....a few Neanderthals", are you sure you were referring to Genghis Khan, were you? I've been led to believe he was a Pakistani warrior.

Do you think maybe the meat markey will evolve into a premium market?
No battery chickens of doped up bef, the overall price going up but consumption down?
So a high end product purchased as a treat rather than almost every meal containing some form of meat?

Probably a good way for people to live that CM

Look at North America

Before Europeans arrived the  native Indians lived in harmony with the Bison, they only killed what they needed to eat.

The Bison continued to thrive.

When the Europeans arrived and headed West led by Buffalo Bill with his gun, the Bison were wiped out.


The reason for that we needed the land they graze on for our cattle which was more suited to the European taste back East.


The animals we eat for meat are all HERBIVORES they don't threaten us except perhaps for the odd bull.

Biggish herd of free-roaming food-producing Longhorn cattle on the Knepp Estate just down the road from me - https://knepp.co.uk/longhorn-cattle/

That is one estate they do not roam everywhere do they?

I am all for cattle roaming free on estates. CompassioninWorldFarming argues for this, rather than keeping them locked up. which

I agree with.

In fact we could let them roam free everywhere, but there is a question of ownership. We would get a lot rustling as happened in

N.America.

U/R another thing with those lot was they lived very long healthy lives too have seen similar finding between Native Americans living on Bison  and rural Africans and Asians living on grains,tubers and plants.
They are also now very susceptible to type 2 and elevated insulin level diseases much like those from Asia and Africa who've adopted our Western mixed up diet and lifestyle,that's why the message is it's genetic from the medical profession completely ignoring the 1000s of years these societies lived without illness and disease.

I believe it denzil.

so if the meat was pure like the bison were many years ago was the meat ok then?

what I'm trying to say is the meat bad no matter what or is it because of what we have done to it?

Also whats wrong with things like milk and eggs and fish?

Think it's a combination of combining the animal/fatty products with carb products that aren't nutrient dense,eating too regularly which elevates insulin levels for long periods,additional medications and feed which produces abnormal hormone pass ons in meat and eggs,fish which is more toxic (especially farmed Salmon) add on to these more empty calorie foods,drinks and sedentary life.
The people of the past were living to survive and had only maybe 1 or 2 meals per day in good times often going days and weeks without food which gives their bodies plenty time to repair in a fasting state.
These periods automatically bring all the health markers like insulin,cholesterol etc. to normal levels so they were living for longer periods in phases of Autophagy which have been proven to extend healthy lifespan and make the body ultra efficient and lower inflammation.
Worth a look at researching Autophagy.

From what I've seen on mortality numbers whole food plant based societies have lived healthier for longer on the whole but can see how Native Americans living on bison given the lifestyle factors i.e periods of fasting and constant activity just to be alive did well also.

Have also found some information on the plant based foods some tribes would've eaten so it could be that when the Bison etc. became scarce that the plant based foods were the staple.

http://www.native-languages.org/food.htm

I don not think there is anything wrong with meat per se

It is a very good source of protein.

But fat is also attached to meat, which makes it unhealthy.

So LEAN meat is acceptable.

But must not be cooked in FAT either or we lose the advantage.


The problem is we humans like fat and like sugar, even though it is extremely bad for us.

just my opinion

There is an issue with eating just lean meat which is it spikes insulin similar to sugar as do oils that they are cooked in you get less of a spike when the foods are whole but we always have carbs with our meals.
The main problem is the Western diet combines too much protein,sugar and fat and eating too often which keeps our insulin too high for long periods that is the cause of type 2 and many other diseases.
When scientists feed lab rats to fatten them up as fast as possible they give them feed which mimics the macros (protein,fats,carb ratios) of the standard Western diet yet we are advised this as a 'balanced' diet and the way to eat to be healthy.

Forgot to say the fats that aren't from foods and are used as dressings and cooking oils are stored very easily by the body,if you were to cook with added fats those containing medium chain tryglicerides are slightly better but can be pricey and are still likely stored.

I see denzil

Lean Meat is only good for building muscle ie bodybuilders there is a spike of insulin but then it drops away quickly

So not so good for endurance


I never eat healthy food I am only joining in because I am bored

Nobody should take my advice on healthy eating

There is an issue with eating just lean meat which is it spikes insulin similar to sugar as do oils that they are cooked in you get less of a spike when the foods are whole but we always have carbs with our meals.

Ignore what I said about the oils they themselves don't cause insulin release but raise cholesterol which in turn can increase your basal insulin levels,they are still combined with lean meat worse than the meat as a whole food.

Dec 9, 2018 -- 2:29AM, UBLE/REGY wrote:

I see denzilLean Meat is only good for building muscle ie bodybuilders there is a spike of insulin but then it drops away quicklySo not so good for enduranceI never eat healthy food I am only joining in because I am boredNobody should take my advice on healthy eating

Insulin spikes last for hours and in people who are unhealthy like me until recently days so no matter what you do you are always in a storing phase,you only come out of the storing phase when your insulin levels are lowered that is the basics as to why people can't lose weight dieting.
Protein from animals takes hours to be processed so any bodybuilder wanting to gain mass will want to keep their insulin levels up by eating combined foods more often and the body will then use the protein it requires to build when in the storing phase.

UR one day you might need to lose some weight and the thread might help who knows.

of course  cows and chickens etc would still exist  ...horses .lions ,bears  and crocodiles exist  .

veggie /vegan food for health reasons ?  that's a new one on me .   

it can be i guess, but can equally be as unhealthy as a meat diet  ...depends on  your diet ultimately .

any vegans i know  are vegan for ethnical reasons so most don't give a monkeys what they eat  ...they will eat chips every day if that's what they fancy

"UBLE/REGY - "That is one estate they do not roam everywhere do they?"

You said they hadn't free roamed ANYWHERE since neanderthal times.  I gave you one example!.   Chillingham in Northumberland is another. 

Do you want anymore examples?, or do you wish to continue to look a fool.

Dec 8, 2018 -- 7:24PM, Dr Crippen wrote:

Lots of vegans avoid animal products on health grounds.It's got nothing to do with animal rights or cruelty.

that post really doesn't make sense

Think my missus might be Vegan........she doesn't like any meat inside her

Dec 9, 2018 -- 7:39PM, ufcdan wrote:

Think my missus might be Vegan........she doesn't like any meat inside her

she might be into free range

You seem easily confused Coachbuster.

Dec 9, 2018 -- 7:44PM, Dr Crippen wrote:

You seem easily confused Coachbuster.

like how Doctor ?

Like you can't make sense of my post which is perfectly plain to read.

Dec 9, 2018 -- 8:05PM, Dr Crippen wrote:

Like you can't make sense of my post which is perfectly plain to read.

why would someone go vegan for health reasons  ...going vegan is more than giving up meat and dairy y'know

it's  restructuring your whole life which in turn includes giving up many everyday things ...beers , footwear ,clothes , modes of transport,fabrics and furniture ,honey ,cosmetics, household goods  basically anything connected to expoitation of animals   ...it's a long  list  Doctor

Oh I see that explains it.

So a true vegan has to avoid anything to do with animal products of any kind.

So they must frown on sports that include animals as well.

yup

I'd not mind being different, but not THAT different; life is too short!

Dec 9, 2018 -- 9:22PM, impossible123 wrote:

I'd not mind being different, but not THAT different; life is too short!

Life is shorter when you eat meat

what is wrong with og racing.

dog.

Dec 9, 2018 -- 9:29PM, Callisto-moon wrote:

dog.

not a lot at first glance Callisto ,but it's when the greyhounds racing days are over i believe and a home can't be found  ...

Greyhound meat is too tough imo.

it's more to do with the fall out more often than not ....

Had plenty horsemeat over the years in those cottage pies didn't notice the difference

you probably wouldn't Denzil

I'm more of a fish person, but do need to eat meat occasionally as I'm slightly anemic. But I loved to go doggie racing a lot in the days of White City, Wembley and Harrigay eg Concentration, Haymaker Mack, Yankee Express, Aitch Bee, Scurlogue Champ, Ballyregan Bob, etc.

but it's when the greyhounds racing days are over i believe and a home can't be found  ...

B0ll0x they make great pets, not all but quite a few.

they make brilliant pets ... but there was a re-homing issue at one point ,not sure if that's the case now .

so there needs to be a new middle ground where you take the food benefits of not eating meat but don't go as far as avoiding everyting
involving animals.

come on betfair forumites crate this new lifestyle choice

It's simple CM just eat plant based 100% 5 or 6 days per week and have 1 or 2 days with the meat,fish,eggs if you want them,that's what my mother does as she's always had Sunday roasts and has the odd fish or egg meal occasionally she changed her diet on my advice and is doing well with no problems stickability wise with big health benefits.

I believe as long as one does not become obese thro' over-eating the wrong food or ill eating the same food repeatedly there really is no harm what one's diet is; horses for courses.

Obesity a huge overall factor due to elevated basal insulin levels which causes untold amount of illnesses.
Type 2,heart disease and the likes not restricted to fatties there are plenty of thin people with those conditions because of the level of personal fat threshold each person has,where some is very low others can go on creating more adipocyte cells without any insulin resistance.

Type 2 diabetes = disease of the modern day affluent thro' consuming too much invisible saturated fats, salt, sugar, etc, with little or no exercise; a nature's way of cleansing a specie of the human beings.

'Denzil', keep it simple. This ain't the Medical Journal.

It aint that simple an illness most people don't have a clue hence the mass explosion of cases and prescription doling,reading it back barring the word 'adipocyte' the post sounds very simple imo.