27 dead in Texas church shooting

Geordies are loud but Americans ....are even LOUDER nap

OK, sorry, I thought it was current.

Apoligies too - we are getting off track - what matters is that another nutter has overdosed on peanut butter sandwiches and gone to a church of all places - much more sacred to the USA than us by the way - and caused mayhem with a gun that imo he shudnt hav on him

No probs Foinavon. Shame about the Titanic btw.

Yes, I only heard about that the other day, Aka.

Have they suggested any motivation for this attack?

Not yet, a press conference is being organised according to France 24 which is the only channel with continuous coverage I can find.

They have switched to Spain now with a promise to cover the press conference when it starts.

No mention of anything being Shouted and Masked attacker ,sounds more likely to be a Local lunatic .

Suspected gunman named by US media

ABC News, citing law enforcement sources, have named the suspected gunman as 26-year-old white male Devin Kelley from New Braunfels, Texas.

Police have reportedly searched his home for explosives.

26 dead ........25 in hopital

Hospital*

26 people dead and amazingly this thread attracts smiley faces.

6 year old boy shot 4 times now in surgery , the Pastors 14 year old daughter one of those killed

Great bravery by the man who grabbed the rifle as he exited the church. Sickening event.

Just got home and saw the news. Sickening.

Meanwhile, politicians repeating the thoughts and prayers mantra (irony alert!) while continuing to pocket the NRA's blood money.

What is it that is playing a very large part in the increasing levels of madness and violence in today's society ?
It is possible that it is the violence in films and computer games and the internet that is causing very great damage to people now ,
These things , computer games and in particular the  internet are becoming a very great force for evil.

i very much agree lfc



another awful event, more innocent lives gone.

If no-one had a gun, no-one could get shot.
It really is that simple.

It seems also, that praying doesn't really seem to do much good.

I have thought about this before LFC I also think the lack of respect and the breakdown of the family unit is another factor.

I believe children need a father and mother and especially boys need a father, someone they look up to and who will teach them good morals and how to do things that will stand to them as they grow up.
.I was always with my dad without realising it I learnt so much from him,just by being with him.

I agree it's impossible to see how America can allow people to have guns in today's society and given the nature of today's society.
The guns were meant to protect people from the government , but in the free and democratic western societies it is not the government that people have to fear , it is other people.

38 mass shootings in USA in October alone. Terrorism in New York Trump goes ballistic about increasing screening, Guantanamo etc. but when an American guns down women and children with a semi automatic in a Church ffs. Nothing about the gun threat from his own voters. Not fake news.

people don't feel safe, that's why they have guns. It's understandable.

Sorry if this sounds far fetched but, on Saturday, I was going to post "I feel another disaster about to happen"!

Truly shocking and dreadful news and, have to think that every time there is such an atrocity, there will be many others
who, in their warped minds, are spurred on to plan the same!

I think we have underestimated how difficult it is to build a safe and free and peaceful society.
The decades after WW2 in Western Europe and some other countries such as Japan and Australia will be seen as a golden age.
But they have made us careless and wreck less , not knowing how fragile these things are .
Look at history and other countries look around.

Does the US have a particular problem with one-parent families or computer games that the rest of the world doesn't?

Not as far as I can tell. Pretty sure everywhere else has access to FIFA, Wolfenstein and Grand Theft Auto and also have their fair share of feckless dads but don't see mass murder on the scale we get in the US.

Only point of difference is the NRA's control over US politicians that means semi-automatic weapons are available on every street in every town.

Agree with PoP. Every country has mental cases, people who flip. The difference between America and other Western democracies is the easy availability of automatic weapons.
You can't uninvent guns or remove them from the population so the best way of controlling this is in restricting the sale of ammunition. I don't hold out much hope of this happening in America. It didn't happen under Obama so no chance under Trump.

Well of course some country has to top the list of murder rates , here they are :
Honduras
Venezuela
Belize
El Salvador
Belize
Venezuela
Honduras
St Kitts and Nevis
S. Africa
Columbia
Bahamas
Trinidad
Congo
St Vincent
Rwanda
Dominick
St Lucia
Mexico

Missed out Brazil in there somewhere also
And Panama, and Nigeria.

Seems to be just 2 categories for these mass shooters, they are either mentally ill or a terrorist. Trump said, "This isn't a guns situation. This is a mental health problem at the highest level." But America has now had 2 big mass shootings back-to-back, Las Vegas and this one, same thing every time "thoughts and prayers are with the victims" but no policy action.....

So as long as the US sets its bar as something similar to Rwanda and Venezuela then everything's ok. God bless the good ole U S of A.

Tell, just seen an amusing juxtaposition of two tweets by some right wing loon ball.

First one was last week, just after the guy in New York drove into the cyclists, in which he pointed out his nationality and calls for extreme vetting. The second after yesterday's attack, in which he says the shooting shouldn't be politicised and it isn't about skin colour or politics.

Why should America , or Britain or any other country be any different from these other countries ?
That is just the point there is no guarantee that a country will be safe and peaceful ,
It is not the norm , it is something we have become too arrogant and wreck less to realise that as recently as the 60s and 70s people in countries such as Russia were being murdered in their hundreds on a daily basis .

The NRA will be calling for all church ministers to be armed

Why do several countries appear more than once in your list, lfc?
Honduras for example 1st and 7th. Doesn't do much for its credibility.

No. of people shot in 2015 in USA- 40,000

Total population of St.Kitts & Nevis - 40,000

lfc credibility 0   

Terrible event again.

Just as the press moves on from Vegas this happens.

Thank goodness the heros who chased after the killer were armed and able to stop him performing more carnage.

Look the point is not does America have a greater or lesser problem than Britain , or other countries .
As pineapple says , but of course  doesn't understand , is that all these countries have broken families and access to violent computer games and the internet.
It is the direction of travel of these countries and society
Is Britain becoming more violent and unstable ? are European countries and is America and others moving this way.
we are changing as a society and people and the influence that culture plays is very important

More guns will solve the problem. So far that project isn't working but when everyone is packing things should be fine

Texas Republican Attorney Gen. Ken Paxton told Fox News on Sunday that more Texans should acquire concealed carry permits so as to prevent more mass shootings like the one that killed 26 in Sutherland Springs on Sunday morning.

The Hill reported that Paxton said the shooting “breaks my heart” — especially given that children were among the fatalities.
“I wish some law would fix all of this,” Paxton said by phone “All I can say is in Texas at least we have the opportunity to have conceal carry,” he explained. “And so … there’s always the opportunity that gunman will be taken out before he has the opportunity to kill very many people.”

And what is British culture now ?
Perhaps you can name a song , or a book, or a mathematical formula that you particularly like.
I don't know.

27

surely someone can beat that soon

Is it 14 year olds throwing acid in someone's face?
I don't know.

And what do we make if a society that turns away and shrugs at these things, as if it is too normal , too much to be expected ,
And that we would have to be half mad not to expect anything else.

One would have to be half mad to be shy of people.

InsiderTrader    06 Nov 17 12:26 
Terrible event again.

Just as the press moves on from Vegas this happens.

Thank goodness the heros who chased after the killer were armed and able to stop him performing more carnage.

You can't help yourself can you?

dead man cant talk dave--oooops!

Dave,

Glad you are alive!

Was worried when you never returned to explain the chart on the thread about wages

So thread about 27 people dead and your only contribution is two blatantly political posts.  You really are a piece of work.

And you talking about the NRA is not?

Apologies. That was PP.

Various posters have mentioned NRA/Gun control.

Is it not balanced to say by having a gun the heros were able to stop the killer?

In a country flooded with arms many want the option to be able to defend themselves.

I'm happy to be political about it. It's people being killed, and is to my mind partly to blame on a government policy that is beholden to a lobby group.

As for the have a go heroes, brilliant! So as long as the killer only gets the chance to unload his sub-auto in one crowded location and gives a chance for others to get ready then we're ok.

(aside from the facetiousness, do we know if any of the parishoners/victims were "packing heat"? Wondering if any were able to fire back and if they did or if the adrenalin kicked in and they hit the deck or ran? and hoped for the authorities to get there asap.)

I see many here want the US to ban gun ownership.........well way to late for that one. Not wanting to sound like an NRA supporter but glad there was a "Good guy" with a gun or who knows how many would of been killed. As for a gun less society such as Britain for example how many got shot here ? Of course while one is one to many it is hard to get a gun here but in America that particular cat is well and truly out of the bag !

Sadly it is a very political issue and to shy away from that will lead to even more atrocities.

Lose your temper or your mind here and you may kill one with a knife or a punch but not dozens.

Assault Rifles?????????? Give me strength. He had a stash of weapons despite being court marshalled for abusing his wife and kid. Over here, if you leave the army and take a pistol with you, it's clink time.

My only probably very naive idea is to try prototype towns in America where there is zero tolerance to any guns.

It's the constitution that needs to be written, no such things as assault rifles back in the day. Injera when I lived in the States in Massachusetts if you were caught with an unlicensed hand gun it was a mandatory fives years in jail. Didn't stop the killing there.

Good job you don't have access to a gun Injera.......you'd probably end it all given the goings on at West Ham !

would these towns without guns be enclosed with walls? every ancient city was enclosed with ancient walls.

Enclosed walls where only the Police would have guns........so no worries there then !

I've got a chainsaw dan...

lfc - didn't say it was a good idea! I just think they surely must try amnesties in a few towns and see if they can make it work.

I feel your pain brother......well I did thirty years ago when we were sh1t !!!

When I lived in Las Vegas in the eighties a policewoman was shot in the throat in North Las Vegas by a gang member, if guns were made illegal why would someone hand is gun in if he's already prepared to commit a crime like that. As I've said before I would certainly own a gun again.

If I lived back stateside

Ban assault rifles?

I have a friend in Colorado who is in her 60s and carries a handgun to work if she's working late.

Can't make sense of what Trump said, "This is not a Guns situation."
So Gun violence and guns are totally unrelated (?) And a person with mental problems lives in a country with easy access to guns. What could possibly go wrong ??????

Allowing the criminals, the rich (with armed body guards) and the state to carry guns and leave the general population defenseless would never work in America.

My brother in law and father in law both live in Texas and are both gun owners - and are both liberals. So, like most issues there is not a black and white answer to what should be done. Taking gun ownership aside for a moment, I do wonder how it is legal for a civilian to own a bullet proof jacket - not sure how that would be covered in the 2nd amendment.

Lest you forget The Donald signed a bill reversing pres Obama's bill on the sale of guns to mentally ill.
He now says this shooting was not a gun issue but a mental health one. It would be funny if it wasn't so
f***ing tragic

There is no answer to the gun situation in America. There are approaching 270 Million plus firearms in circulation. There is no way that people will hand them back. The NRA will not take any responsibility. They will not take a backward step for fear of a deluge.

They could start with mental health checks and maybe a ban on the sale of assault rifles but these would not change much apart from attitude but that is the one thing that needs changing fast.

For all the problems we have in this Country thank God that we don't have as many guns causing so much misery.

No civilised society needs so many guns floating around. The poor souls killed in mass shootings are just the tip of the ice berg. Thousands more die by the gun in America in isolated incidents.

when you have the head of a local NRA group making statements like "I'd rather see some children die than do anything to jeopardize my 2nd Amendment rights." it certainly has gone beyond reason and comprehension

If the NRA lived in Syria or Iraq no doubt they would be Jihaddis!

One Texas family lost eight of its members, four of whom were children and one a pregnant woman, in Sunday’s tragic church shooting rampage that claimed 26 lives.
Eight of the Holcombe family members were among those who attended and were shot dead during services at the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs when a gunman, identified as Devin Patrick Kelley, stormed the church and killed 26, as Breitbart Texas reported. Kelley later died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Authorities believe his horrific actions were related to a domestic dispute.

A relative of the family told KSAT that John Holcombe was in the church Sunday morning with his four months-pregnant wife, Chrystal, and her four children, parents, plus brother and sister-in-law. Three of the children, 13-year-old Greg Hill, 11 year-old Emily Hill, and eight-year old Megan Hill, were slain inside the church with their mother. Medics rushed six-year-old Evelyn Hill to University Hospital where she remains in stable condition. John Holcombe was released from the hospital Sunday night after sustaining injuries from shrapnel. Holcombe’s parents, Bryan and Karla also died in the massacre as well as his brother, Marc, 36, and his one-year-old daughter Noah. The eldest of the Hill children, PJ, did not attend church with the family because he was home sick.

8 members of the same family, how do you get over that.

Unreal

Seems the Air Force failed to put him on the list as not being allowed to own a gun.

Legislation was already there to stop this.

awful

Nov 7, 2017 -- 8:51AM, InsiderTrader wrote:

Seems the Air Force failed to put him on the list as not being allowed to own a gun.Legislation was already there to stop this.

Which rather enforces the view that if guns weren't available at all, he wouldn't have found it so easy to get any.
No gun shops, no need for legislation.

Four or more is considered a mass shooting..........you decided four was the magic number ???

Which rather enforces the view that if guns weren't available at all, he wouldn't have found it so easy to get any.
No gun shops, no need for legislation.

So you just want criminals and the rich to be able to protect themselves?

In this case it appears an illegal firearm was used to kill 27 people. He was only stopped because armed heros shot him twice and went after him. Yet some people want to disarm those heros. Unbelievable.

No that isn't what I want. Why would anyone want that?
Criminals must find it much easier to get a gun in the US than most other countries.

In most other western countries - the UK for example where there are guns among the criminal fraternity, and doubtlessly the rich or people who shoot for sport, the sort of mass shooting which take place regularly in the US are far fewer.

I don't think a degree in rocket science is needed to establish a correlation between more guns and gun usage and gun availability, and more people being shot.

You seem to defend some weird things, Insider Trader. Do you type this stuff on lots of forums?
I'm guessing you do.

ufcdan;
4 is the definition used by the American Govt as the number of people shot for the incident to be considered a mass shooting.
There were 28, (yes twenty eight) mass shootings in the USA in October alone - so more or less 1 a day.

Lets not forget the legal firearms used by the geezer in Vegas.
Any defence of that incident or the use of guns following it is mad.

which geezer was it though?

Whoever it was, terry, it involved the use of (unnecessary) guns!

The Americans will fight tooth and nail to oppose any legislation to ban guns.
For me a starting point would be to ban the sale of rapid fire weapons.
Should be one shot rifles and six shot pistols and nothing else.

Or as I've been banging on about, about the same performance of a weapon back in the day when the constitution was written

My 30/06 rifle was one shot ideal for hunting deer, never wanted to riddle a deer with fifty bullets ! My Magnum was a revolver as was my .38 less to go wrong if I'd of ever been unfortunate to have to use a gun, thankfully never did.

If everyone has weapons from when the constitution was written then fine.

If not then it would be pointless.

The idea is the population have the means to defend themselves from criminals and the 'state' if it becomes too powerful.

IT - that last bit is what you hear from paranoid hillbillies. You often hear Liberals want to take our guns etc etc, but as I said earlier my inlaws are liberals, but gun owners too. I think a lot of people just want to see stricter background checks. Another anecdote, but my sister in laws father in law is a Vietnam vet - huge gun enthusiast and enters shooting comps etc, also a Trump voter. Hardly someone against the 2nd amendment, but he is a supporter of better checking on potential gun owners and not allowing military style semi automatics to be in civilian hands. Like I say just an anecdote, no stats etc, but even though he is very different to my politics in many ways I have a lot of time for his opinion on this subject.

The idea is the population have the means to defend themselves from criminals and the 'state' if it becomes too powerful.


Yeah good luck with that one ! As I say constitution outdated and needs to be amended. Hank do you live here or the other side of the pond ?

do you know anything about chemtrails ufcdan? why do the americans wont to ruin our beautiful world?

Chemtrails???

look it up-treason against the world id call it,f"ing hell

Looked it up, they've done it in the past so why not now. Usually they do it to Jonny Foriegner. The Marshall Islands for example.

unbe****inglieveable

Not the country of my births finest moment !

used for all the wrong reasons now so defo not their finest

uk dan, but wife is from Texas hence my inlaws being there. I also lived and worked there for a good bit

Will you be moving to Tennesse Hank!

But isn't the second amendment to do with an armed militia? It was written at the time when the US consisted of a dozen states who each wanted their own military rather than a national force. The fact it still gets used as a defence shows how endemic the corruption has been there.

You lost me there whispering

All my ex's live in Texas,
Thats why I hang my hat in Tennesse!

Sorry Hank,

it's quite a famous Country song. youtube it George Straight All my ex's live in Texas!