USA Police....

The cop handcuffs and arrests a nurse in a hospital because she wont take a blood sample from an unconscious truck driver who was injured when a car the cops were chasing hit his vehicle. She shows him the written policy preventing her from taking the sample and has the hospital legal dept. on speakerphone telling him the same thing, but he's lost the plot and drags her screaming, in cuffs to his car.

that shows the extremely good civil rights that the people in America enjoy.

I presume the nurse will be back at her job on Monday.

the cop I was saying about ifc wont be back at his job Monday or any other day for that matter,
what is happening in the states Cooperman?most seem to be living in fear!

most people in the states living in fear : )
I've heard it all now .

oddly enough I was talking to an American lady who lives over here now,she was saying you are spied on with everything you do,the expression she used was "everything feels like its closing in on you" on another point why is the media making sure a big point on this black v white thing? and of course saying its all the dons fault as if it hasn't been going on for years

well the problem is in the modern world people have to be spied on, Owell was right but with a difference, for western democracies the danger is not from their own government but from their fellow citizens.
Why is this ? because in the west there are millions of people who do not believe in western freedoms and values .

Because we can no longer trust our fellow citizens , that is why it is necessary to spy on them.
That's how it is.

there is a job waiting for you with the C.I,A

The CIA do a terrific job.

they certainly do

Seems like they consider themselves above the law. The Police Chief has apologised but I suspect the moron cop will not be fired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEOWnRroQlQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGq5O1oZDXs

Looks like one of our mods is doing a bit of moonlighting.

America has been calling itself 'exceptional' for so long and people believe it. It's only natural that a lot of people within America will see themselves as exceptional/superior/above the law too. They worship the military and a job title. Give some thicko on a power trip a cop badge and a gun after less training than a hairdresser gets and there will be problems. Throw in resentment about not being a Navy SEAL and some steroids and it's a complete fcked up mess

The American  people are exceptional, every aspect of life in science , the arts , technology , every aspect of life , they are good at everything .
The most creative and inventive country in the history of the world .

The 20th century was the American century. What the American men and women achieved in the 19th and 20th centuries was something like a miracle .

I have got extremely mixed feelings about America and Americans. I've been all over the place in my time, met good and bad people as you do in any country but apart from Vegas it's not a country I'd ever wish to go to again.

Saw that clip of the cop arresting the nurse.
Unbelievable, hope he gets sacked.

America brim full of entitled s hit- knackers.
The end.

Just take a snapshot of a single days news headlines.

Hurricane in Texas making the headlines while a far larger casualty list occurs elsewhere due to the monsoon, and a similar story underpins both....that climate change deniers at the very heart of the institutional mindset of American protectionism sees their rights come before any and all present or future generations.

Well get used to it America because you reap what you sow.

America is a World on its Own DUSTY  a World ,the real world seems very interested in these days

Yes and the rest of the world is going to have to face up to its responsibilities including hypocrites like dustybin . What is he prepared to sacrifice for climate change , how much money , his job , his car , his family holidays or his families cars and jobs .
And other countries such as Britain and  Germany and France and China and Russia and India .
Well they are going to have to look after themselves .
They don't like to do that , it's easier to be like dustybin and expect others to do so.

Now what should America do about so called climate change ? If should do nothing ,
I like to see factories and smoke and dirt , I don't want a future I want a present . That seems to me to be of greater value.

Yes, I can see exactly your mentality lfc, first in your wrong assumption of me and second of the selfishness of your entitlement, 'I want a present' statement.

If you knew anything of me, you would know that I lead a simple life, no excesses no holidays, my working days are over my car is seldom used my consumption is limited, in short the luxuries of this invented modern world extend little further than my use of some technology (now rather dated) and my books.

What should America do regarding climate change you ask?
Show some humility might be a start. Trump and co are largely in the science denying camp and 'business is a virtue', that money is everything and that desires need to be realised.
They don't.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
It's very hard for the developed world to dictate an agenda on those countries now committing the same acts the west invented, now that the west have reaped the spoils....but at least acknowledging the science and taking a matured response to it would be a start, not one where toys are thrown out of the pram for short term instant gratification.

dustybin I was not talking about you personally , I was using your self satisfied tone as an analogy. Now you lead a simple life, perhaps you would like to give up your computer or mobile phone, considering the harm and pollutants that producing such things produce ?
No ?
Now what did the people who invented the industrial revolution owe , what does Britain and later countries like America owe ? It doesn't bother me what Britain did 200 years ago , I insist on being unbothered by that.

Now if you continue to use your computer, or phone I can assume you are not particularly concerned about making sacrifices , you know something you might do yourself instead of expecting someone else to do so.

I'm not implying a life with zero footprint, but as the old mantra goes; everything in moderation.
Moderation isn't what our system is set up for, it's one of excess and greed, of inbuilt obsolescence and land fill, short life cycled products to encourage churn and production, 'wealth' that's seen to be linked to possessions.
I use an iPhone 3 and and IPad 3, I did less than 250 miles in the car last year, I don't consider myself to tilt at windmills nor do I get drawn into fashionable need.

The path that humanity took was based first and foremost upon themselves that became a model for the economics that was chosen by those in power to provide for others as a secondary issue, this policy uses aspiration as a euphemism for self serving greed.
Consideration has been sacrificed, you only need to look how the 'most important man on the planet' is an egotistical collector of golden things and fame, and wealth built out of speculation and opportunism.

The people who created the industrial revolution can't have known of its impact, but denying it now and preferring to opine about the meaningfulness of collective international competitiveness is completely bogus and irresponsible.

Ah, I see dustybin, you won't be giving up your computer or mobile phone then.

I suppose someone, somewhere will be prepared to do so, where ? I don't know.

Dustybin is very very moderate , what has he given up again, and sacrificed ? , I don't know.

Perhaps he thinks people in America are less moderate than he is , they might be , anythings possible.

It's always the counter argument, that those that already live within a reasonable moral code who show the collective ills for what they are end up getting accused of being wilfully self loathers or have to live in complete bondage to be listened to.

Well that's bollx. The enemy is the person who refuses to listen to reason.

All those who grasp with both hands the trophies of their own justified existence, like they are the things they deserve.

I have a lot of money, I could live a lavish lifestyle and own all the best of everything whether I need them or not, after all that's what our western mentality would want everyone to do in such a position.

I have a lot of money dustybin, I have so much money I don't know what to do with all the money.

And before you suggest it, yes I could give the money away, perhaps I will, but I'm still relatively young and don't rely on others to look after me so I don't know what I will need going forward....and I've not determined whether anyone is worthy of it yet.

So predictable you managed to even say it before I had finished typing lfc.

A moderate lifestyle , and don't give away too much of all that money you have
dustybin
Yes, that lovely things like money exist , is a lovely thought.

Money is simply the vehicle I use to distance myself from a civilisation I don't agree with.
Diogenes gave all away and lived on goodwill and services while damning the people whom he called degenerate.
The error of that theory was that the very people to whom you damn are the very people on whom you rely.

Not so with me, I can take an objective view around me, I have no vested interest and I'm up effected by the tidal wave of ideology.

*not effected by

Of course only poor people have to go and work in factories, in the dirt and dark through  the day and night.
Why is that I wouldn't like to have to do that,
why do we need factories
Maybe it's to punish them for being poor.

What?

Now notice what dustybin did there, he is not going to give anything up , because by doing so he would not be able to afford himself the luxury of being 'objective' 
That's a nice arrangement, right there,

Who are you talking to?

That way he gets to keep everything he wants , and at the same time content himself that he is not a hypocrite.

Your split personality?
If you are speaking to me then don't address me in the third person.

It's not all about you .

Well there seems a need of a life lesson 101 here lfc for you I'm affraid.

As non of us were canvassed pre life as to whether we would want to be thrown in or not then all of us are born into an environment that is shaped by those that went before, and the shackle that is placed on all people is the result of the fact the system is shaped to force people to fight against each other to 'buy back' their own freedom.

Well when you start with nothing and have no way out other than to play the game the only thing you can do to get freedom is make money as innocently and with as little impact on others as possible.

This system doesn't get fixed by those that refuse to acknowledge its ills.

Words are lovely , but of  course other people don't have to listen to words , when they come from people who merely talk and are not prepared to sacrifice anything themselves but expect others to do so
Well something about those sort of people makes me want to laugh and jeer

Maybe I shouldn't do that , that's a ' life lesson ' for you.

Yes I'm sure it does, and swivel your eyes no doubt and reach for your comfort blanket that all is fine with your theory.

Like I said, I don't live in penury but nor do I live in excess, I live a perfectly reasonable middle ground.
So what would come of my self sacrifice?
I give everything away and require subsidy, perhaps own a cloak and beg for food to make up the difference between what rich people say poor ppl can live on and what they actually need....what happens then?
I get called a bum and thrown to the wolves, and still get denied council by those who won't change their opinion for anything.

This discussion was about how those in America are following their own interests and aposing the growing evidence of the scientific community, and acting as pariahs in pulling out of hard fought agreements.
I don't have anywhere near as much as trump.....yet he won't stop, his obsessive greed has no limit, he will continue to grasp money at every opportunity, way beyond any level where I personal sanction myself within a finite economy.

So as you say....it's not all about me.

I'm not asking you to give anything up , as long as you don't ask me to give anything up.
To me that seems like a good arrangement.

Of course to ask someone else to give something up , and not be prepared to do so yourself ?
Well that's rude.

Why would I care what you do?
I was highlighting the entitlement of the American mentality in relation to climate problems.

there is no climate change,its all totally made up boll0xs in every sense of the word

And of course would people be thankful if American citizens made sacrifices and gave up things, jobs, or money , or phones, or computers.
Would other people be thankful America for the great sacrifices ,
Would they, no quite the opposite, they would continue to be rude.

It's simple, if you don't like the things, the beautiful things that America creates and the wealth it has given everyone of us in Europe  and the rest of the world, don't use them .

What protectionism is essentially is unilateralism.
It's a generally used argument that where we are is better than the only other option, that being oppressive communism.

Well all you have to do is look for all intense and purpose to be better at face value, but under either the surface be riddled with the same corruption as the intent of the tyrant.
What trump does or doesn't do is based an a manufactured illusion that gets sold to the people about rights and wrongs, they get played like fiddles.
Just like the nuclear unilateralism, everything has to be on Americas tune, trade has to be for Americas behest, the world exists in their eyes for them.

And there continues the illusion.

It's argued that wealth has been created for all that 'lifts all boats'
Newsflash.....non of it was ever paid for.
All western democracies are broke, if they were companies they would be shut down, failed.
The size of each national debt are each greater in peacetime than they were in times of complete world war ffs.

I don't think Trump is that smart , or people that stupid.
Now you may think the American people are stupid , I disagree .
And you may think you are smarter than the next person in America .
Why is that exactly ?

great news is though the USA are now making record profits selling defence systems to the world due to the n.korea sh1te

I am glad America is selling defence systems, we had need of them before in our history  not so long ago,
No one likes to be thankful.

I don't much like the general mentality of the general American it's true, an over generalisation I accept, I base it upon the traits of the original Europeans who went over who were generally conservative types who became the bloody neo con republican horror they are today when let loose.

The truth is you don't have to be exceptional to get by in this life, just slightly sharper than the median will suffice.

they are not selling them for free ilf,the clue is in record profits

You have to be exceptional to have created and invented and composed and wrote and calculated and engineered and designed the things America had done .
That's us not easy , it is difficult . Not everyone is capable of such things .

I don't want them to sell anything for free, if they did that people wouldn't value them
People are like that, selfish.

But look at the reality.
Science is altruistic, granted many discoveries are down to American ingenuity.
So why ignore them now?

It's because the product of 'wealth' in America is generally recombinant; it's an opportunistic merging of two or more scientific discoveries that are pushed on people for profit, not for need.

If they invented a car that run on grass then I'd doff me cap, but their innovation is based on churning out crap.

That's ok , I like the internal combustion engine. When some other dreamy country dreams up something better that's fine.

Yeah
And Facebook etc etc

never use it.

Well some DC does because it's got a ridiculous share value based on its ability to shape opinion and influence buying of tat through telemetry, along with a myriad of other arguably useless software developments

Good .

My sister uses it for her business.

As do a select group of private companies that turn humans into the commodity

It's easy , if you don't want to use don't , that's what I do , its easy to stay silent .

Part of that business is trading with America, and American people.
That is good and if modern technology thanks to America helps thenso much the better.

It's not about Facebook per se
It's about the business model that came with it
The technical tracking of all individuals and the value of the data that those individuals become.

People say that these are developments for good, Instagram for eg lets users add filters to selfies ffs.
While the invention of such disrupting tech helped to kill Kodak et al who employed people.

We are becoming a world where those who create these mindless bits of tech are supplying them for free to people who no longer have any value as their skills are no longer required and so have no alternative to consume the crap that's provided to them by those companies.
And get their info fromyoutube

every company comes and goes , unfortunately things have a life cycle and then they are gone
Like rock music , it would never have existed without the invention of the electric guitar .
It was here for  it's time and is now almost dead , like Kodak, perhaps killed by YouTube.
It's a pity ? but then someone has to come up with a new art form .
It's not inevitable that we can.

Did Les Paul know.  In the 50s what it would bring about when he invented the electric quitar ( or whoever invented it)
No. the beautiful results and the music that came after would have been impossible to know.

You can thank America for that as well :)

The next time you hear the voice of Roy Orbison , thank America.

Kodak was killed by digital photography in smart phones.

But the point is that technological advance takes the combined economic wealth of employing people to do things from an analogue world and strips the value and supplies it to a distinct minority who created the digital software.
This will increasingly be the template of the future as people's skills are surpassed by technology and what was called a 'post work' age.
Though it's clearly not turning out that way from a potential utopian portrayal.
In reality this 'progress' creates very rich individuals and a poorer society in monetary terms.
All the while the free stuff provided the future unemployed worker will be tracking everything they do, say and ultimately think.

or the opening chords to the Sex Pistols Pretty Vacant or God save the Queen and Rottens sneering vocal intro
Thank America for that as well .

dusty people are working longer than they have ever done in history , don't worry about work.

It's not as they make it out
It's true employment remains robust, for now, only because the equation has been altered to limit the impact.
Employment rights will be stripped next as downward pressure created by over supply of workers who frankly could and will be replaced.
We have already seen zero hour contracts replace contracted work and part time make up a growing share of the picture a s a whole.
It's an employment market that stands on very bad foundations that when starts to fall will collapse in terrible ways.

Yes we have too many people , that's a political and social decision to be made by individual countries,
There is only one thing that improves people's job prospects and wages and that is shortage of labour.

Well that's not going to happen is it when robots and tech only ever get more ability

I have no problem with progress in and of itself.
My problem is with the spread of wealth distribution, or lack of that comes with it.

they said the same thing about computers, the computer revolution created more jobs and wealth , starting in the early 1970s
We are still waiting for people to replaced by computers, it hasn't happened and will not happen.
Do you recall just recently there was a terrible panic because hospital computers had been hacked ,
Guess what , things were ok , not because they found a fairly quick solution.
But because the people were still there and computers didn't really do anything,
That's how it is with all new inventions , they need people and staff and probably more of them.

The truth about hospital infrastructure is down to failed targets and promises by software companies that have never met the requirements of combining all the needs.
That doesn't mean that progress itself flatlines.
It's just that the companies touting for contracts promise too much and deliver too little.

Innovation in non linear by nature, if we could plot progress then we would be able to determine what exactly would come out when. What we know for certain is that moores law has been consistent for about 50 years, which has made up for all the un realised false hopes over time.
How realistic was it to say at the birth of computing that man was going to be redundant so quickly?
There are things that will take time to develop, but it's generally accepted already that the unskilled worker is doomed, and even the semi skilled worker has some very real threats as algorithms soon will replace many doctor opinions on things or lawyers over view of past cases etc.
Driverless cars were scoffed at only two years ago but already they are on the edge of being a very real thing.

People are relying on very insecure laurels and by the time they need to wake up will be the time there is no comeback.

The truth about hospitals is that we have more of them, and more people employed in them than ever before .
Skilled workers , and unskilled .?
Well who is more skilled , a bricklayer or a plumber, or  car mechanic , or an engineer , or an electrician
or a city trader , or a politician , or a manager, or an office either , or a nurse,  ?
I don't know
There are only jobs that a country needs to be done , that is what matters
When those jobs change then the peoplevto fill those jobs will change also ,
That is how it has been throughout history .
If course you might think that we are suddenly going to alter in some drastic way over the following years.
I doubt it.

You could take the opposite viewpoint and ask what has been invented in the last 40 years that has changed anything ?
In any country, look around .
Nothing has been invented, we are not inventing anything.

History didn't provide an entity that grows in ability exponentially.
Now we have that thing and in many areas it's surpassed the skill set of workers who then had to learn a new trade.
You spoke earlier of the industrial revolution.
Well the loom fired almost the whole work force overnight and lead many into adjective poverty.
The only difference was that the rate of progress only made one type redundant at a time so only certain skills became redundant.
The speed of progress is called the singularity, it gets ever faster meaning more and more sectors become under threat in a shorter time period, until such time that the rate of progress is so fast that humans no longer know which skills they need to be trained to do.

I disagree that the rate of progress is getting faster, progress was much greater and change much faster in the 19th century.
The industrial revolution brought much greater prosperity and must more  far reaching change  for the average working person and society in general.

if you think you disagree then read pretty much any work by Ray kurzweil.
He will explain it far better than I can.

sex pistols and America Ifc?

Then move onto anything by MIT director Erik Brynjolfsson

Not only did the industrial revolution in the 19th century create jobs , and more of them than ever before, but it created the conditions for a greater population to fill those jobs and created great wealth that everyone in England benefitted from.
There is no reason to believe that would not be the case today , if we were equally creative and inventive.

You are missing the point.
The initial stage of some areas within the industrial revolution created new opportunity yes, but only because it provided simple 'dumb' work based on effort that humans were required to do, like in factories initially.
But as grunt labour became superseded by technological progress labour itself becomes marginalised.
Where humans adapted to assembly lines initially wealth was created and production increased, as wealth is linked to production.
But as capital assets replaced labour with machines that could do a cheaper and more efficient job the labour market then got pushed into other areas.
The problem is, like the Kodak example that physical workforces and distribution gets decimated by software, machine or Internet (delivery) of products....initially increases productivity, but minimises the areas that an increased supply of workers then need to fit into
Those works nolonger retain wages and thus can't buy the products that are being produced more quickly.

If you think this is all my personal opinion then you do me a great service, this is the thinking of some very eminent clever minds who specialise in these fields at those American universities like Stanford and MIT.

Can you two lovebirds (lfc1971 & dustybin) start your own thread ffs.

Looks like the hospital has taken action against the tyrants who assaulted and illegally arrested the nurse. The Police Dept. has suspended two officers but I think we all know how that will end.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/utah-hospital-bars-police-from-contact-with-nurses-after-appalling-arrest/ar-AArkH80?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp