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Simulation hypothesis

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Replies: 74
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 02 Mar 17 20:58
Despite the hype and the eventual letdown, Dorigo is glad that this bump has got folks talking about high-energy physics. “It doesn’t matter even if it fizzles out; it’s important to keep asking ourselves these questions,” he says. The main reason for this, Dorigo explains, is that “we are at a very special junction in particle physics as we decide what new machine to build” and some input from current colliders is necessary. “Right now there is no clear direction,” he says. In light of the fact that there has been no new physics (or any hint of supersymmetry) from the LHC to date, the most likely future devices would be an electron–positron collider or, in the long term, a muon collider. But a much clearer indication is necessary before these choices are made and for now, much more data are needed.
http://blog.physicsworld.com/2016/08/05/and-so-to-bed-for-the-750-gev-bump/#more-13840

time is up mofos - the end is not nigh - it's now. trigger point imminent. say GODbye to your little square patch of grass in the united(brexit)kingdom.
By:
DStyle
When: 02 Mar 17 21:52
The maths behind the simulation hypothesis is quite simple.

You can read nick bostrum's paper if you want to

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf

to summarise: in the future we will develop computing power which can model our universe from its origins and ultimately all the conscious minds it produces, and these modelled minds will believe that they are conscious. There will be nothing within the model to make them believe that they are being modelled. the computers will have the necessary power to run numerous simulations simultateously, and the entire lifetime of a single modelled universe will take milliseconds to simulate. what's more each modelled universe may give rise to civilisations which can create computers which, in turn, model yet more universes.

you get the idea. it makes sense to believe that there could be billions upon billions of simulations, but only one "reality".

so what are the odds we're living in that one and not a simulation?

Bostrum goes onto argue that the real arguments against it are that no species never gets technologically advanced enough to do it, or we find a clear ethical objection in doing so.

Oddly enough, it's an entirely compatible idea with a god creating a world, or there being sentience behind its fine tuning.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 02 Mar 17 23:07
funny how this simulation theory only took off, once we had computers.
maybe because of computer games.
I visited Bell's college of technology in 1983. they had a lab room with basic computers that ran a basic pac man game and it was held in high esteem at that time. wow. 32 bits.

Isn't this just an extension of 'life is but a dream'.

another avoidance strategy.

the brick is on route and the glass will break. no excuses will be entertained.
God introduced himself to you. You ignore him. He ignores you back.
you might get a consolation prize if you realize you were fooled after the event.
But isn't better to get all the inheritance you were promised than a token.
the wait and see policy will see you into a pit. you'll scream out why didn't you warn us.
the book is replete with warnings.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 02 Mar 17 23:13
[   This image is no longer available.   ]

this simulated night sky is showing the sky of the 10th of April 2017.

simulated - like planet paintings of seven worlds in far off star systems.
generated by graphs. no actual planets can be seen. it's like drawings from sonar.
it's signals bouncing back. But artists sit and draw composite planets like I doodle faces and say this girl looks like a jenny? or a lucy? it's meaningless.

the 10th of April this year is Passover, 2017, Jewish year 5777.
By:
Foinavon
When: 03 Mar 17 13:47
Thanks for posting the link, DStyle. I've now read it through and agree with the OP that it's more philosophy than science. It appears to be a modern day rehash of the shadows and dream scenarios going back to the ancient Greek philosophers. Interesting that Bostrom managed to weave in an idea of the Abrahamic deity, a gold star for that.Grin
If such a simulation were possible then there has to be a ground state reality and Occam would suggest that's where we are. It's hard to believe that a simulation would include the massive amount of redundancy we see in our carbon-based biology, the complexity of countless species and the vastness of space.
Any computer programme would likely have a granularity based on a minimum pixel or bit size and that ill-fits with the space-time continuum which is just that, a continuum. Also, the probability basis of matter suggested by quantum mechanics would require infinite computing power to simulate. (IMO).
By:
DStyle
When: 03 Mar 17 14:13
it is a thought experiment of course, but a interesting one nevertheless.

regarding your last point, it's interesting to consider one idea that's come out of the simulation hypothesis provides a rather neat explanation for the copenhagen interpretation (wavefunction collapse/ classic double slit experiment).

namely that the granular detail (i.e. behaviour and quantum states of elementary particles) in the simulation is only required to be resolved upon observation, as higher level approximations of the reality (i.e. the simulation is not bottom up) are entirely fit for purpose and require less computing resource.

So the idea that a simulation would need to model the wavefunctions of every particle in the universe and compute their probabalistic interactions is not a requirement of the system.

As for the redundancy, if the only input/initial parameters were only the cosmological constants and the wave functions/ M- theory/ whatever works, it's entirely expected.
By:
Foinavon
When: 03 Mar 17 14:26
it is a thought experiment of course, but an interesting one nevertheless.

regarding your last point, it's interesting to consider one idea that's come out of the simulation hypothesis provides a rather neat explanation for the Copenhagen interpretation (wavefunction collapse/ classic double slit experiment).

namely that the granular detail (i.e. behaviour and quantum states of elementary particles) in the simulation is only required to be resolved upon observation, as higher level approximations of the reality (i.e. the simulation is not bottom up) are entirely fit for purpose and require less computing resource.

So the idea that a simulation would need to model the wavefunctions of every particle in the universe and compute their probabilistic interactions is not a requirement of the system. Yes, good argument. The amount of reserve computing power would depend on how many observers would be allowed in the simulation and keeping track of them. There are seven billion of us and most of us see diffracted light and other quantum effects although we don't normally carry out experiments.It could be argued too that our metabolism is quantum in nature.

As for the redundancy, if the only input/initial parameters were only the cosmological constants and the wave functions/ M- theory/ whatever works, it's entirely expected. If one starts with the cosmological constants, then I would think that one also needs the elapsed time, circa 14 billion years, to arrive at this point. Not practical for the observer.
By:
DStyle
When: 03 Mar 17 15:58
There's no reason why our simulation has to run at the same speed as the observer's time. 14 billion years could be simulated in a handful of milliseconds on a quantum computer the size of a planet.
By:
FlowerMyth
When: 03 Mar 17 16:16
the simulation hypothesis provides a rather neat explanation for the Copenhagen interpretation (wavefunction collapse/ classic double slit experiment).

Speaking of which - If the CI is the right one. I’m not in a position to say which one is, but of all the quantum mechanics interpretations Pilot-Wave theory, which I believe is currently the third most popular after Many-Worlds and Copenhagen, offers the sanest explanation, as far as I can grasp it, for all quantum effects.

In this interpretation (which is one of the oldest) there is no wave/particle duality, there is always a particle with a definite momentum and position. In the case of the double slit the particle always passes through one slit or the other carried by a pilot wave, this is a major difference from the other two interpretations. As before wave interference effects occur, though now they jostle actual particle in following one path or another. The probabilistic element doesn’t go away, the particle’s evolution is still described by the wavefunction, but in reality it has always been a particle, always going through one slit or the other.

This interpretation, taken up by David Bohm in the 1950s, has been growing in popularity with physicists. A year ago an experiment was done using oil droppets that parallels what you’d expect if quantum objects were indeed  carried by pilot waves. One of the major hurdles of QM is that it’s not easily understood even by those that are familiar with it, making progress a bit of a slog. Pilot-wave theory does away with the importance of the observer and the need for other worlds for the probabilities to decohere into, it becomes that bit easier to understand.

Here’s a little video of oil in action and, later, its relevence to quantum effects (it’s only 3mins and soundless).

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmC0ygr08tE
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 03 Mar 17 19:51
they dumped multi-verse theory in the toilet - the new thing is mega-verse.
they now want you to believe the universe is much much larger than they can observe. with constants that vary throughout like a patchwork quilt. basically the multiverse is in one universe. that does away with the odds barrier in multiverse theory. All they have to do now is prove the universe is infinite. I thought that was the steady state model of the 1950's?

focusing on the creation over the creator. the exam is called faith 101. you are all failing it. no resits are permitted.

deadline for all papers Sept 24th 2017.
By:
DStyle
When: 03 Mar 17 20:11
https://www.amazon.com/When-Prophecy-Fails-Leon-Festinger/dp/1578988527
By:
Foinavon
When: 03 Mar 17 20:39
That looks like an interesting read DStyle. Thanks, only £1-19 on UK Amazon for the kindle version.

I can't imagine that Zorro would read it as he wishes to stay blinkered.
"hominem unius libri timeo" but not quite how Thomas Aquinas meant it.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 00:02
http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/?v=1&geo=geoname&geonameid=5128581&m=50&month=x&year=now&c=on&s=on&maj=on&min=on&mod=on&mf=on&ss=on&nx=on

the Hebrew calendar - above.

i had a pick for the oaks years ago - put it's name on the wall. Wijdan. So i wouldn't forget to back it. one day I jump into a bookies to take a leak. So i felt obliged to make a bet. i look up at the screen and see Wijdan in a group three race? WTF it's a oaks contender. not even group one? So I empty my pockets and put it all on Wijdan. it romped home.
That's what you call inside knowledge.
very rarely do I get it maybe once a year, you need to study for it or be lucky to find it.
I'm a lazy gambler. I don't study for it.
another was Cameroon vs Argentina - Argentina had not won a game in 14 tries, Cameroon are quite good? why is Cameroon 7/1 ? empty the pockets again. 

that's one fact operating in the equation.

I've got a lot of arrows pointing into September 2017. Not one arrow. it's maybe twenty.
I can't see it being my head being turned. wishful thinking? i'm emptying my pockets.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 00:46
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Introduction/introduction.html

the Jewish year starts on the feast of trumpets - September to September.
the Jewish day starts in the evening and ends in the evening next day.
this is the religious calendar.

God gave the Jews seven feast days to observe in Leviticus.
SPRING FEASTS...
PASSOVER(pesach) Nisan 14-15(April)..................... Jesus Killed.
Unleven Bread (Chag Hamotzi) nisan 15-22(April)......... Jesus Buried.
First Fruits (Yom Habikkurim) nisan 16-17 (April)....... Jesus raised
Pentecost (Shavu'ot) sivan 6-7 (May-June)............... Jesus bestows the holy spirit on the apostles. On all of his followers who ask for the spirit. seed sown for two thousand years.

Autumn Feasts...
Trumpets (Yom Teru'ah)(Rosh Hashana) the shouting/blasting. Tishri 1(sept)
Atonement (yom Kippur)Tishri 10
Tabernacles (Sukkot) tishri 15-22

the SPRING and AUTUMN feasts.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

So if Jesus is following a pattern which God sets out... the feast of trumpets is next.

(ARROW one) something is coming - our worlds are about to become very different. it's going to change everything... what do you see. (nothing?)
By:
casemoney
When: 04 Mar 17 02:09
What came First  The c0ck or the Fanny ?
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 04:33
the **** - Adam
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 04:35
oh this cake is divine? where can i get more distractions?
I have to avoid God as much as possible.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 06:18
QUEEN VICTORIA - HOW TIME MOVES ON AND HOW WE FALL.

Years later, when Canon (later Dean) Farrar served the Queen as chaplain, he visited her when she was sick. She had been reading a leaflet on the return of Christ and said, "Chaplain, what do you think about the return of Christ?"
It is not known what the chaplain answered, but when he left he said, "Your Majesty, why have you asked me that?"
"Oh," she said, "I wish that He returns while I am still alive, because nothing would give me more joy than to pass on the crown of Great Britain and India to Him with my own hands." In her youth, with most of her life still ahead of her, she crowned Jesus KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS; and then much later, in her latter years, with grey hair and with the many sorrows that she had borne, she wanted to give Him every crown that God had given her.
When you grow older you might have less strength, but you have got more that makes you happy and more that you can share.
by Ernest A. Francis
By:
Foinavon
When: 04 Mar 17 11:20
DStyle, I read a few lines of the book last night before going to sleep. This morning I open chit chat and find it's all true. Cool

After mulling it over, I have some misgivings about the "fast forward" scenario. I'll post later in the day as I'm short of time at the moment.
By:
Foinavon
When: 04 Mar 17 15:16
OK, here are my thoughts for what they are worth. Perhaps a bit much for a gambling forum, though.Grin

If you can equate the simulation to a film or video recording, then the idea of fast-forwarding 14 billion years from a set of cosmological constants is seductive. Life, though is far more complicated than images on a screen and if we are biological entities then our existence depends on thousands of chemical reactions sweeping through our bodies. All of these reactions have equilibria, rate-determining steps and catalysts (enzymes) which are environment related. You can't change the reaction times or anything else and hope to get a result. The same applies to photosynthesis and all the other processes of life which are interrelated.
Something similar applies to the balls of plasma which we call stars. They are amongst other things, element factories and the heavier elements can only be made in supernova conditions. Time, temperature and pressure are all important.
If anyone could ever simulate all this in a computer programme running on a computer less than the size of a universe and fast-forward it, then bravo.
It doesn't seem possible to me.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:05
If it's a simulation, then Time might not exist like you perceive it. Like a program on a computer loading. It might run at a high speed. Therefore a billion years would be processed in a few seconds. Indeed if the computer is high spec it might load in an instant.

So Time is irrelevant.
Matter is irrelevant.
You are not made in God's image. But only part of a program?
another devaluation of mankind theory, what a surprise.

ask this in 1970, and people would say what are you drinking? creme de menthe?
this only comes up because we are using computers now.
It a perspective created by our senses, which are very limited.
seeing only a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum.
So now we have information language. So we throw that into the mix of reality.
By:
Ovalman.
When: 04 Mar 17 16:19
Zorro, you must be a Global Warming skeptic? Because you tend to look for proof in whatever you believe in yet discard the evidence against it.

Re. the Opening topic, I listened to a podcast during the week (Science Friday I think), I wasn't paying great attention to it but one point I thought was curious was we move our arms a fraction of a second before our neurons in our brain "think" about moving it. That well may be in that paper in the link above as a proof.

It's certainly something to ponder on the subject, science doesn't have all the answers but it's a progressive subject (except for you Zorro where an all encompassing god did it so you can devote your life to him. Hope you chose the right god tho Surprised)
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:25
you need to watch the 'absurdity of unbelief' a lecture on youtube - just go to part 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmOv7vcvFvQ&t=30s
By:
Ovalman.
When: 04 Mar 17 16:28
Err, no thanks. Not that I don't watch crap like this, it's just I'm fed up with your copy and paste proofs.

It's like we're in a simulated Universe and someone made you type that Crazy
By:
Foinavon
When: 04 Mar 17 16:28
It's a thought exercise, Zorro.
I don't think we are in a simulation either, there's too much biology for that but people do consider all sorts of possibilities and simulation hypotheses go back to the ancient Greeks. The computerised versions are a modern tweak on this.
By:
Foinavon
When: 04 Mar 17 16:33
The Abrahamic god hypothesis is far more implausible than this computerised simulation and is a form of simulation in itself. You should read the cognitive dissonance book suggested by DStyle, zoz.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:38
In my world view the earth is here as a petri dish. It's a way for God to make fine Gold and silver and then to be discarded.

Oh dear, I hurt the planet's feelings, such a pretty planet too.

God is only interested in souls with spirit. seed that germinates.

seed is valuable. If it does not grow in the field it's worthless.

there are a trillion stars for every human on the planet. The universe is this big to accomodate elemnets such as carbon forming. All the goldilock constants. at least 24 constants set up just so. But it's all matter. Not soul or spirit. God has no need for it.
it will be rolled up like a scroll. (17 references in the bible to the universe being a scroll? ) God is outside time, outside matter.

He values your soul and spirit. nothing else.

what do you value?
By:
Foinavon
When: 04 Mar 17 16:41
I value my sanity Zorro Plain
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:42
then you have left your soul unguarded, the only thing of value you possess.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:44
keep distracting yourself. the window of opportunity is closing. you'll be left holding your pudding. kiss it goodbye.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 16:56


close up of the 2017 review of the year to come in the ECONOMIST ? magazine.

hey have a plan, for what's coming. You don't. You are so screwedd..
By:
casemoney
When: 04 Mar 17 17:03
And Eve was made from His Rib ?
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 17:08
the rib is the only bone in the body that regenerates if excised by a good surgeon. It is commonly used as grafting material.
no other bone regenerates.
Adam's blood spilled on the land to get him a bride.

Jesus was pierced by a roman spear between the ribs. his blood spilled out onto the land below the cross. All to get him a bride.


people are being killed across the world in conflicts, while you say it's a simulation?
God help you when he comes.
By:
casemoney
When: 04 Mar 17 17:18
Shocked
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 04 Mar 17 17:35
DevilSurprisedCry

dodge the bullet. get ready...
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