Surely the BBC aint gunna make Mark Duggan innocent

They made Jimmy saville innocent for years ...so who knows

On now

Full of crisis actors.

If the stories of duggan are true....then good riddance, but it stinks of another woolwich con

I'm still undecided.

A lot of pain and trouble could have been saved if the police had told the truth in the first place.

People think lies are the answer they never are.

The officer who shot Duggan thought Duggan was reaching for his gun, it was his phone, why did the police not say that to start with?

The lawful killing verdict is interesting, because police are allowed to fire if they thinks their lives are under threat.

Even though there was never a threat, the officer under considerable pressure made a mistake, I only wish that had been admitted.


I would like to see the Duggan family get some recompense for this

Just my own opinion.

I would like to see the Duggan family get some recompense for this

Hopefully not.
They knew what Duggan was and benefitted over the years from his criminality.

Two wrongs do not make a right Akabula!

The police shot Duggan while he was unarmed, recompense is due.

Families do not usually inform on her own.

That isnot a family.

Anyone going anywhere with a gun can't complain if they get shot imho.

He did not have a gun when he was shot saddo!

£200 million damage in the following riots

several other people killed


a sad episode all round

Still had one though, there is no acceptable reason for that, better off the streets.

The police shot Duggan while he was unarmed, recompense is due.

He was a well known criminal and deemed dangerous as he sometimes carried a gun.
Irrespective if he was armed or not if the police thought so they were entitled to shoot.
Compensation ffs, never heard anything so stupid.

agreed 100% akabula

I do not give our police the right to shoot anyone on sight because they deem them dangerous.

I never will!

The police shot an unarmed man, that is not right.

It isn't up to you
This has been deemed a lawful killing so why is compensation due?

What I don't get about these type of programs is - why do they always assume that the people that they speak to are telling the truth. I don't mean the police.

People do tell lies...

He seemed to be an avid collector of "Baby Mothers".

So do the police Mecca

make your own judgement

He wasn't innocent, he was a criminal who was known to carry a gun on occasions. So, in some ways, I have not that much sympathy for him (although i do feel sympathy for his family) However the conduct of the Police in this case leaves a lot to be desired. I wouldn't like to say that they "planted" the gun, but it seems that they tried to lie about what happened and changed their story when they realised they could be disproved about certain details. I remember at the time thinking that if he was an armed thug, then he probably got what he deserved, but what I saw in that documentary was pretty disturbing. Especially when I remember what happened to the completely innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes. If these are the kind of people charged with protecting the Public from armed threats, then I feel a lot less safe than I used to.

Clearly it isn't right to shoot someone in cold blood.  But it wasn't.

I have no sympathy for anyone that carries a gun.

He would have known that if you are faced by police pointing guns at you, you don't mess around in your pocket.  You just put your hands up.

But the police behaviour after the event stinks.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Would love to know what the police were investigating that was so top secret.

at a guess ...an ongoing investigation they do not want compromised

That is a reasonably fair assessment Jack Hacksaw. Duggan was not shot in cold blood, the officer who shot Duggan

believed Duggan was going for a gun. The police had had correct intelligence from Trident Duggan was picking up a gun.


But having realised their mistake the police behaviour was a complete disgrace. They have maintained lies which I cannot forgive.

I believe people including the police, particularly the police, should tell the truth.

If the police though a cover up would prevent black rioting, they got that wrong!

I do feel sympathy for Duggan's family. I accept Duggan died as he lived, although he was hardly a master criminal.

Someone may have ended up dead through the gun, blue, better him I think. He played with fire and got incinerated.

you live by the sword......don't think he is a loss to society

PILGERISM !!!

Police statements didn't match up with the GPS on the taxi. Two coppers claimed to have found the gun independently. So some police testimony didn't match up with GPS or with other police, nevermind witnesses.

Duggan was an obvious scumbag but shrugging shoulders at such contradictions will only lead us to totalitarianism. With his hand positions nobody could blame them for at that point thinking he had a gun. Maintaining that "I saw a gun" just makes them look stupid and untrustworthy.

The Menezes case showed that the police can make all sorts of fck ups in intelligence leading up to the cop on scene thinking there is an imminent threat when there isn't. It's not as simple as 'live by the sword' etc. You could get mixed up with somebody who lives by the sword and get shot in the face. Questions have to be asked. Subsequent police bs in both cases, or threatening to shoot someone they should have known was an innocent taxi driver hardly inspires confidence.

The big question is how Duggan found time for criminality since he was such a randy bstard.

Only certainty here is that whatever he was reaching for was definitely  not a packet of Jonnies!

Especially when I remember what happened to the completely innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes. If these are the kind of people charged with protecting the Public from armed threats, then I feel a lot less safe than I used to

You obviously don't know the full story of that event Des Pond.
Was sad that an innocent person was killed but the blame cannot be laid at the feet of the police in the underground station.

I think that the police behaved the way they did, after the actual shooting, because of the colour of his skin. If Mark had been a white man.. there wouldn't have been a major problem.

Criminal known to be in possession of firearm fails to cooperative with armed police gets shot. Sounds pretty straightforward.

But they try to 'jazz it up' so as not to antagonize the ''community''. That didn't work out well.

I thought it was a powerful program.

I'm assuming Duggan threw the gun just as he exited the car. The police can't have seen him do it. No way would they plant it over a fence. That makes no sense.

The failure to go and see his family immediately after his death was disgusting. It implies a cover up of sorts but specifically a complete lack of any compassion.

Having said that the police at the scene did all they could to resuscitate Duggan which I thought was hugely impressive.

The rioting of course was a disgrace and did nothing to make people warm to the black community who of course thought this was a racist shooting.

Obviously they couldn't say,(other investigations??) but I hope they caught the guy who gave the gun to Duggan.

I too thought it was a powerful programme, and I ended up feeling some sympathy towards Duggan and his family.

I don't know how factual the programme really was, but I saw Duggan as a bit of a wannabe, rather than a gangster. He'd only ever been charged twice (I know that doesn't mean much) and they were Mickey Mouse charges in all honesty.

I think the unlawful killing was the right decision, if they thought he was armed then you have to shoot first, and ask questions second, imo. The police didn't come out of this looking very good, and I wouldn't be surprised if later evidence of a cover up came to light.
l
Not letting the family know of his death was appalling.

Inerja. The bloke who's gun he was holding got sentenced to eleven years.

Oh wow - didn't see that. Thanks.

Silent witness. I'm sure this was their take on a similar issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNZ51YkR39Y

He would have been prepared to use the gun he was collecting so no loss there. Why we should rush to condemn any copper charged with entering a dangerous situation, when a man may be known to be prepared to shoot him, and he has to make split second reactions on the spot to save life is beyond me.I have spoken to coppers with an armed license and they both maintain the highest demands are placed on them from within,we should make allowances,none of us would rush to challenege armed crooks.

i thought the forensic guys evidence was good as he confirmed the body position
that the police claimed duggan had taken at time of shooting

he had probably gone to get his phone from his pocket and it spooked the police

eye witness claimed he had his hands up rather shown up to be mistaken

police evidence not that great over finding gun ....2 of them , whoops

and of course the policeman who thought he saw a gun on duggan when he was shot,
also mistaken


these armed guys just dont get enough practice of real life stuff like this, i guess
in a way thats a good thing for us all, and a hazard for gun carrying criminals

If a copper was pointing a gun at me, I doubt very much that my first action would be to get my mobile phone

nor me, maybe he was going to attempt to film or record them ?

anyway it turned out to be a bad move for him

theres white folk get shot by police too, so its a worry
incase they get the wrong man,  but its unfair to expect police
to operate without arms in todays society, and accidents will
happen.

I saw Duggan as a bit of a wannabe, rather than a gangster

I agree s.kenbo, looking at his previous convictions he was hardly a Ronnie Kray,
but if one plays with guns one cannot complain if one gets burnt.

I do not believe Duggan was armed when challenged. Otherwise we are asked to believe that as he was shot he threw the gun
either voluntary or involuntarily a considerable distance over a wall, and nobody saw this gun flying though the air...
It is testing credibility to its ultimate limit. Also the program said Duggan's arm was hit by the shot, so it is a job to see him
throwing anything.

I believe Duggan left the gun in the cab or threw it over the wall as he exited the cab.

I have some sympathy with the officer facing Duggan. Duggan move for his mobile phone would have looked like a move for his gun,
so he fired. I have less sympathy with his statement, he did not see a gun. It has to be noted one of the bullets ended up in the radio
of another officer. But for that he may also have ended up killing one of his own men!

I also find it impossible to believe the police left the scene of crime without the most important piece of evidence, Duggan's gun.

I think the police were afraid to admit they had shot Duggan in error, in case it caused riots, so they lied to cover
their mistake. Ironically this triggered the riots!
The police come out of this very badly.
My advice always tell the truth.

Dec 6, 2016 -- 3:18PM, akabula wrote:

Especially when I remember what happened to the completely innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes. If these are the kind of people charged with protecting the Public from armed threats, then I feel a lot less safe than I used toYou obviously don't know the full story of that event Des Pond.Was sad that an innocent person was killed but the blame cannot be laid at the feet of the police in the underground station.

You obviously don't know the full story of that event Des Pond.
Was sad that an innocent person was killed but the blame cannot be laid at the feet of the police in the underground station.

Go on then, enlighten me. What did Menezes do that made it fair enough for the Police to execute him? Don't say that he was running away and jumped over the barrier, because it has been proven categorically that he didn't. He died because the Police **** up big time. What makes you conclude that the police can't be blamed for his death. Of course they can. it was their fault!

I never said it wasn't the fault of the police.
I said it wasn't the fault of the police in the station.

A suspected terrorist was under surveillance and police were monitoring the flats he lived in.
They had intelligence that he was a suicide bomber.
Menezes was mistaken for him on leaving the flat and this was relayed to the various police on this case.
And because of that mistake his fate was sealed.

Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that the police were not to blame.

lesson's will be learnt

2 different police officers claimed to have found the gun Mark Duggan was alleged to have been carrying.

Personally I think they were both lying but at least one of them was.

Why were the police lying about this ...... and why were there no fingerprints on the gun ?

Or DnA  ,an Unarmed man was shot

the tv showed a reconstruction of him carrying gun in a box as picked up

i suppose he would have been careful to not get his fingerprints on it if he
was planning to use it, maybe throwing it over wall to collect later, probably
expecting to be searched and released

quite why two police claimed to have found gun is odd but maybe one found
it, left it there and before it was collected another officer spotted it and reported
it.....unlikely as the gun was clearly a major issue and you would think they
would have been jubilant to discover it

Obviously something bent going on there, but the stupidity of allowing statements from two coppers claiming the find is bewilderingly inept.

Very suspicious all the same but you need absolutely irrefutable proof.

Sorry about the big word Saddo

If you had him cloned x100 and spread them through the USA, >70 would have been shot by the cops in week 1. Lucky him growing up here. And dreadful luck being shot by one of the most craven police districts in the UK.

I think he was shot lawfully, the officer was right to shoot him in the circumstances but I think he left the gun in the taxi. The only other problem for Duggan was his mobile phone which would link him to the supplier of the gun.

On leaving the taxi he shaped to throw his phone away and it appeared he was going to produce the gun they knew he had somewhere.

The problem starts when the police can't find the gun until they spot it in the taxi then panic sets in even though the shooting is lawful.

There is a lot of activity at the scene until they decide the best course of action and it doesn't look great.They should have just declared what happened, he's no loss to anybody just another feckless estate criminal with no end of different women and kids.

I'm not sure about the wannabe tag either. When he went to live in Manchester with his relatives I'm pretty sure some of them are part of a notorious criminal family and they featured in a TV documentary.

I seem to remember hearing that myself about him having a notorious criminal family in Manchester.

If he was prepared to use the gun then it's no real loss. If he was just going to hold the gun to try and impress some 'Bad Boys' and gain a bit of street cred, then it'd be a bit of a shame.

i thought it was alleged he was on a mission to avenge the death of a gang member

although thats not proven

His mothers sister married Dessie Noonan.Google him!

Crime filth, well rid.

It was odd the gun was over the fence, 14ft away. If Plod planted it they would have put it on him or on the pavement.

I can only imagine what it's like to be an armed copper, with a family, going to work, knowing I'm tasked with dealing with a potentially armed man...