Nicola v Boris-- thursday

Amber Rudd been the worst performer so far and by a country mile.

That is not to say that Scotland can never be independent. But they can never be allowed to forge alliances, of a political nature, outside from England if these alliances treaten the security and wellbeing of England

Eagle accused Boris of dodging the question then dodges it herself.

both the Brexit ladies going well...

Brexit coasting this. Cool, calm and reasoned. The three hyenas not doing themselves any favours.

Boris not as natural at this stuff as Cameron but he'd win every election he fought if he became PM.

Angela could turn milk sour

Sturgeon says Boris should not blame the ills of the world on foreigners.

She's clearly a big fan of irony

I'm putting that (independence) to one side tonight.
FFS she's mentioned it about 20 times.

Spot on Roger. Anything goes wrong the SNPs default position is blame Westminster.

Wish we'd let Nicola have her independence - she'd be a laughing stock by now if we had.

NS, Is without doubt a competent politician, a fair speaker (if that accusation can be levelled at any politician) but Jesus Christ on a Friday how does she square the circle about independence and being part of the monstrous EU.

Jimmy Krankie wants Independence for Scotland but wants to remain in the EU.  U couldn't MAKE it up. 

Leadsom has been the BEST on there tonight.  Top class performance

U wold be better with Eddie the Eagle instead of Angela -

Sturgeon likes the economies of scale arguments around 65 million people vs 500 million but not so keen on it for 5 million people vs 65 million.

The Brexies, have won this on points, but that is a pale reflection of what they could have achieve simply quoting recent history (since 2007/8) and the villains involved their treatment (joke) and influence since

Eagle just stated we control our own Borders???

Brexit came onto a game whilst the Remainers went downhill.

Kriskin • June 9, 2016 9:37 PM BST
Leadsom has been the BEST on there tonight.  Top class performance...........agree

Hi aka hope you are well and winning

Why are the Out team so calm & the leave witches so aggressive

leave = remain

andrea is demented typical labour if you don't agree, voices get riased.

Hi Ron, nothing wrong with aggression, most human activities are won with it, not compliance, imho.Hope you are well.

Sturgeon nearly said 'better together' there.

Don't mention any of the negatives as it's scaremongering says Nicola then tells us what we'd lose.

Latest full SCOTLAND EUref poll from TNS-BMRB

71(+1)% Remain / 29(-1%) Leave ex DK.

If 52% of England votes to Leave,Scotland will move it back to remain

Maybe they don't reallybelieve their own positions. Ron

Hello boxing.

Just it doesn't come across well from the remain team, a much more relaxed feel from
the out team.

Hi Foxy just noticed you sorry.
Great here and you?

Amber, what a Pr't demonise the opposition, instead of putting a better arguement

attacking Boris how very poor and predictable. If these women were personally attacked like that there would be hell to pay. This referedum has highlighted how poor most politicians are.

aka, I'm doing great, better than for a few years, thanks for asking and enquiring recently, hope you are well.

Listen to the trade unions they gave us Millipede!!

Rudd is effectively Leadsom's boss at the Department of Energy, makes Leadsom's performance even more credible imo.

Jun 9, 2016 -- 9:52PM, Howdi wrote:

attacking Boris how very poor and predictable. If these women were personally attacked like that there would be hell to pay. This referedum has highlighted how poor most politicians are.

How sad but true a summation of the Lying, self serving, media fawning, b@stards that serve us today.

guy in audience tonight







https://mobile.twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/741010390683914240/photo/1

Jun 9, 2016 -- 9:56PM, ReaseHeath wrote:

Rudd is effectively Leadsom's boss at the Department of Energy, makes Leadsom's performance even more credible imo.

I remember seeing docu's showing Heinrich Luitpold Himmler in the same light in Germany, wonderful thing party line, propaganda, eh.

yep, I'm sure there is much more to it than meets the eye but we can only observe, research, review and make our own decision on as an informed basis as possible.

the SNP only came close before by lying through their teeth, fiddling the figures, and forecasting an inflated oil price.

A forecast which was BELOW that of the UK govt at the time. You read like the forum's very own Daily Heil, Just Choking.

ReaseHeath, Agree mate, how the fck do you decide?? especially on the invective displayed, thus far,I just know from history that large human conglomerates are by their very nature, self serving, and the ordinary (is there such a thing) guys suffer for it. good luck whatever you decide.

Is this News at ten or gogglebox?????

akabula 09 Jun 16 21:49 Joined: 13 Mar 08 | Topic/replies: 19,565 | Blogger: akabula's blog
Don't mention any of the negatives as it's scaremongering says Nicola then tells us what we'd lose.

Why do I get the feeling that if Nicola changed sides, you would too akabula?

Who really controls News at ten,???

Alias, personal feuds are in admissible on this fred now please put your case, you may very well persuade 'on the fencers'

I certaily wouldn't change my views Alias but neither would I share a platform with her.

Answer this;
How could the new bridge be on time at the end of March/start of April yet 2 months later we are told it is now 6 months behind because of poor weather in those 2 months. (Was 25 days of high winds btw)
The only real question is who lied and was it because an election was looming?

Jun 9, 2016 -- 10:13PM, boxingthefox wrote:

ReaseHeath, Agree mate, how the fck do you decide?? especially on the invective displayed, thus far,I just know from history that large human conglomerates are by their very nature, self serving, and the ordinary (is there such a thing) guys suffer for it. good luck whatever you decide.

cheers, boxing - pretty much agree - self preservation (or perhaps fear) guides me to vote remain but increasingly feel the right thing to do would be to vote leave. Need to grow a pair within the next two weeks, I think I will.

When the argument is lost attack the person.
This is the SNP way unfortunately.

Politics is a fantastic career if you can survive the first few years.
A money cow gone mad.

ReaseHeath, Introspection is perhaps the greatest human developments, God this is getting too deep, dare I chance a drink with my meds, .................the answer is YESSS.

Cheers boxing!

Jun 9, 2016 -- 10:25PM, akabula wrote:

Politics is a fantastic career if you can survive the first few years.A money cow gone mad.

Thats just what it is a career, network, take sides, feather ones nest, plan for the exit door, whatever the fcking effect on the (tory favourite) hard working families.

I've already voted Leave btw.
Applied for postal vote as expected to be away on the 23rd.

Hope you are having a large one Ron.

Where you going aka, if you don't mind me asking.

aka I thought voting NO Scottish referendum was a guarantee to stay in EU

the mirror slams Boris





http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dont-believe-con-man-boris-8152782

An independent scotland in a post uk 'brexit' or the whole United Kingdom still in the EU post 23 july....


decisions, decisions.

Sturgeon, master of disguise, has put a pink beret and a funny accent on and appeared on question time.

xmoneyx
aka I thought voting NO Scottish referendum was a guarantee to stay in EU

Not sure what you mean. Care to expand?

The latest opinion polls say that even if the vote to leave wins there is no appetite for a second referendum no matter how Scotland votes in the ER.

Down south Foxy, nowhere in particular although visiting friends for a few days whilst away.

better together NO side said voting YES would put Scotland out EU

economic advisor USA

Mohamed A. El-Erian‏ @elerianm
One of my takeaways from a v quick #UK visit-the #Brexit debate is a lot nastier, uglier and corrosive than I had imagined  #economy #europe

Well it would have xmoney. I don't see the issue here.
The YES campaigners were stating that it would be automatic but the NO camp merely pointed out that Scotland would need to reapply.
If you remember Salmond based his argument on legal advice the SNP had sought and bought. This turned out not to be true.

As regards the negativity you mention he does say it was from a very quick visit.
Hardly something to hang yer hat on is it.

true

attacking Boris how very poor and predictable. If these women were personally attacked like that there would be hell to pay. This referedum has highlighted how poor most politicians are.

Very true. A male acting the same way towards a female would be called a rude, ignorant bully. Female politicians seem to get away with it though. At least the leave side females managed to maintain there dignity.

Thought the remain side were very poor last night. Angela Eagle looked like she'd won a raffle to appear. Had about half a dozen scripted lines but went to bits when put on the spot. Sturgeon was also guilty of just repeating points and holding back. I have a sense that the other parties are quite happy to take a back seat and watch the Conservatives pull themselves apart over this.

As for the brexiters I thought Boris handled himself pretty well. Can certainly see his appeal to some. Was a bit put off by the woman with the rictus grin constantly staring down the camera. Half expected her to come crawling through the screen.


The thing about this whole referendum I think is that it's not actually that important. I do think on the whole we'll be worse off if we leave (especially so with the current corrupt, self-serving, asset-stripping shower in control at Westminster) but I think the difference between being in or out isn't actually that stark. But then, further to that, I'm not remotely bothered about us adopting European laws as we've voted for the overwhelming majority of them anyway (again, a much bigger majority than I'd probably have supported from a Tory govt), and I really don't buy into the idea that immigration is a big deal. Jack Dee's programme the other night covered it well. Britain is not a country of white people, only speaking English, getting garish tattoos on sunburnt arms and getting leathered every friday night. We come in all shapes and sizes and that's a good thing. It's to be embraced, not feared.

^ that is very nice, but is it true? In today`s world. Throughout history vast numbers of people have been something to fear. Violence and madness and irrationality have been the constant theme in large parts of the world, and in most countries.
Only in small areas and in small pockets of time have some people managed to build peaceful and secure and prosperous societies.
But t5his is something that is not guaranteed or even likely.
If we give away citizenship too freely then will we be admired, no we will be despised for it.

There has also been warfare and violence in parts of the world. Fact is though, that the vast majority of people don't want it and - like the recent Syrian refugees - will look to escape it with their and their childrens' lives intact. The idea that these people will somehow be more prone to violence than any other person is of course nonsense.

As I said above, Britain now isn't an all white, GSTQ-singing, Foster's-swilling society and hasn't been for a long time. We've had many immigrants from Ireland, Africa, Asia and the Middle East who have integrated into society and are now several generations in. I remember the same arguments back in the 70s and 80s based on similar levels of ignorance. I was in London earlier this week and walking along I was keeping an ear open for how many different accents and languages I overheard and there were loads. And, personally, I like it. What's the problem?

As for us being despised, I don't buy it. ISIS last summer were banking on a Europe-wide backlash against the immigrant crisis in the hope that it would radicalise some of the refugees in time against those nasty, selfish westerners. It backfired on them though with the reaction overwhelmingly positive (at least until it had died down and some govts reverted to close-mindedness).

good post pp

gah! always not also in the first sentence.

Yes i like different accents, some are more beautiful than others who would deny that?
No it is more important what people say, and what they think. You see i listen to what people say.

Some good points there PoP

Personally any whiff of 'Blood and Soil' nationalism regarding immigration leaves me cold, despairing even. Despite a gobby minority bringing themselves off every time 'Britain First' puts out another (non-context) video, most Britons are decent, fair-minded people willing to give a fellow human being an even break, until that person proves to be a pr1ck.

Anyone wanting to come here, work hard, pay taxes, obey our laws, contribute to our economy doing work we need doing (not merely that they will do cheaper than anyone else), accept our largely Judeo-Christian belief system and democratic processes underpinned by tolerance of all religions (including their own) is fine by me and I've got more time and more in common with them than any bone-idle white person who can trace their ancestry back to William The Conqueror.

To dismiss nationalism is wrong imo. You see what does it really mean?
well take a look at the subjects in other countries, is there freedom and democracy and safety and are these things inborn. Or is there tyranny and madness ans starvation and superstition?

What's the problem if people want to offer lower prices for the same job? What does it matter where they come from? Should I be forced to pay more for someone because he's British. Maybe more again if he's from my town and more on top if we share a postcode. Don't get it.

I have a friend who's a truck driver who's been suckered into supporting brexit. Essentially, he's seen his pay and conditions slowly deteriorate as the supply of truck drivers has increased. Now I see his point. But at the same time, he's turning his ire on the wrong target. If you want to blame someone blame the companies now treating their staff like dirt knowing they'll be easily replaced. If I was in a mean mood I'd bring up that line about losing your job to someone with no contacts, who doesn't speak the language etc. In other areas people have lost jobs due to increased technology, through companies moving abroad for tax purposes or because a clumsy or corrupt board have taken the p!ss.

Apart from that I agree. We are a tolerant, democratic, atheist/Christian country that doesn't really care which god you may pray to. If that sounds good to a foreigner then fine. If not, then maybe they should look somewhere else.

Your friend is very sensible. History shows that it is impossible for a country to thrive and progress, and for its citizens to have a secure and happy life if there is an excess of labour.
There must always be a shortage of labour in any successful and prosperous country.

Of course if citizenship is given away too freely then no one has any duty or responsibility to the country of birth or any of his fellow citizens.
There will be no obligation to pay tax or should there be a time of crisis no sense of duty, or a feeling of responsibility.

he idea that these people will somehow be more prone to violence than any other person is of course nonsense.


How is this nonsense? You don't think that a random person from a country with a breakdown in law and order, civil war, where life is cheap and corruption is rife is going to be more prone to violence than someone chosen randomly from a country which doesn't have these things?

And that can all be packaged up nicely and laid at the feet of those immigrants!


Maybe we should all be rising up against the corporations looking to move offshore, to pay sub-minimum wage, zero hour contracts, to care only about the dividend and their own directors' bonuses and to the government asleep at the wheel (or with their fingers in the till) while all this is going on. Maybe we should question the wisdom of attaching a cost to university degrees so most students are leaving uni with tens of thousands of pounds of debt if they want a qualification.


Back in 2006ish I'd met my future wife and took a GCSE to learn Italian, her language. I carried this on, eventually doing both years of the A-level course at the night school. For each year the cost was around £100-£120. We then moved abroad for a bit and I remember reading a bit of a stink as the new chief exec/principal's salary was something stupid like £140,000 but thought little of it. We came back in 2013 and I looked into doing a Maths A-level with a view to following it up with a degree. Imagine my surprise when I was quoted over £800 for the first year's course. £800. Seeing as I was out of work at the time I simply couldn't afford it and had to quit the whole idea.
But somehow, we've managed to create this new normality where essentially school headmasters are comfortably earning six figures and the cost of education is ridiculously prohibitive to a large section of society.

I know I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I think it just illustrates that we've got our targets mixed up. Blame the game, not the pawns.

aka I postal voted yes,

I'm not sure if that is a reply to my post or not because it's totally irrelevant to it if it is.

the idea that these people will somehow be more prone to violence than any other person is of course nonsense.


How is this nonsense? You don't think that a random person from a country with a breakdown in law and order, civil war, where life is cheap and corruption is rife is going to be more prone to violence than someone chosen randomly from a country which doesn't have these things?


Surely, the fact that they're willing to risk their lives, leaving their possessions behind, hiking for days on end, getting on a dinghy to cross the med knowing how many before them have done the same only to drown - you don't think that fact maybe indicates how much they fear and abhor that violence. If anything I'd say it would make them less prone if anything.

Maybe there should be barriers to exit northern towns or certain London boroughs based on the fact that the crime rate there is higher. Maybe some European countries should have extra border controls to any flights in from Luton, Liverpool or anywhere else that isn't deemed middle class enough. sheez.

"I have a friend who's a truck driver who's been suckered into supporting brexit"  Jesus that is a mind numbingly arrogant statement. So a Truck driver who has seen his take home pay decrease year on year for the last 17 years is a sucker for realising the blatently obvious fact that cheap FOREIGN labour allied to human greed, has allowed this to happen, also degrading any possibility of of uniting fellow truckers to resist or fight this, because the EAST EUROPEANS are too great in numbers, for any resistance to have a meaningful result. Is everyone who does not hold your opinion on remaining a sucker???

Are you aware that Polish workers in particular have risen through the ranks to control employment in large swathes of the midlands, and other guys don't even get to apply. Take a look at any trucking hub,( Magna park for example) and look at the wages on offer, these guys get up at 4 in the morning to drive artics for £9.50 an hour. so you can buy your cheap goods, while smugly posting **** on here.

*****

the Poles have decimated the Swedish haulage industry. The Swedes implemented their own rules to try and help their workers but the Poles have set up massive hubs in Denmark on the Swedish border that bypasses the regulations.

box - maybe before calling my statement mind numbingly arrogant you can take a step back and realise there's quite a bit of detail that I don't have the time or remote wish to put on here. Safe to say he's been a labour supporter his whole life; very, very left of centre. By using the word suckered, I mean he's been hoodwinked into blaming it on foreigners rather than the employers, government who've allowed this situation. And suckered into the idea that if exit wins, all will be rosy - all those foreign drivers will disappear and trucking firms will happily increase their drivers' wages.

His pay hasn't been gradually decresasing btw. Only a couple of years ago, he was on great money travelling round Europe with the F1 circuit and was earning good money as a younger man driving round the continent.


As for the rest of it, you're pretty much backing up my post. It's not the workers it's the companies employing them - or the gangmasters supplying the cheap labour. Meanwhile we can all celebrate buying our milk in tesco's for £1 while everyone involved in the process is being squeezed. Maybe if the government and HMRC weren't so incompetent, feckless and downright corrupt more effort would be made into ensuring a level playing field.

A fair reply, and yes we are in agreement, I took exception to the sucker terminology which I think is, or a lest can be construed as a demeaning term to use about a friend without any explanation, (now remedied)

As for our 'rulers' ..... any time reason was used to replace princes/rulers with better governance it started well enough ( Russia and France are just 2 examples) but ended bloodier, crueller and more unreasonable than what it replaced. I certainly don't have the answers.

Incidentally, I too have a friend who drives a truck, he too made fantastic money as one of the top FA's in Barclays, he became disillusioned with the greed and corruption he encountered, packed it in, a good few years before the crash, now drives a truck 6 months of the year, and spends the other 6 sailing, (single handed across the atlantic, etc) one of the few occupations in the midlands where he can do this, so in his extraordinary case it works brilliantly.

Surely, the fact that they're willing to risk their lives, leaving their possessions behind, hiking for days on end, getting on a dinghy to cross the med knowing how many before them have done the same only to drown - you don't think that fact maybe indicates how much they fear and abhor that violence. If anything I'd say it would make them less prone if anything.


Or it just means they are young, single, males.

Speaking about middle class you're the one that seems to be coming across as the middle class plank. Clearly couldn't give a **** about your mates valid concerns about immigration as long as you get a cheap supply of labour. You sound like the typical Guardian reader who likes to talk down to the working class about being racist and hoodwinked because they have concerns about immigration whilst benefiting from cheap labour and rising house prices  and living in an all white suburb somewhere.

Have you checked the demographics to see if they are young, single males. Again, why is that a bad thing once you get over your paranoia. Surely you've read the stories of what happens to them - effectively press ganged into joining up or, alternatively, which your family butchered before you get your own throat slit. You know, that kind of thing. These guys are trying to avoid that, not be a part of it.


As for me, working class and proud. Born and bred scouser who's grown up under Thatcherism, managed decline, being sneered at by others and gradually seeing the re-birth of my city. Thanks for calling me a plank though. I think I've shown I clearly do share his concerns, I just think they're misguidedly pointed in the wrong direction. I don't see what the issue is with immigration, really don't. As long as they come here, behave, pay their taxes etc then I think they add much needed colour and texture to the place.

watch not which*

Surely, the fact that they're willing to risk their lives, leaving their possessions behind, hiking for days on end, getting on a dinghy to cross the med knowing how many before them have done the same only to drown - you don't think that fact maybe indicates how much they fear and abhor that violence. If anything I'd say it would make them less prone if anything.

Maybe there should be barriers to exit northern towns or certain London boroughs based on the fact that the crime rate there is higher. Maybe some European countries should have extra border controls to any flights in from Luton, Liverpool or anywhere else that isn't deemed middle class enough. sheez.

Maybe if we were able to control our own borders - knowing who was coming in, their country of origin, whether they were refugees, economic migrants or potential terrorists - then the question of how they arrived here would be slightly less relevant.

Of course, if I were fleeing a war zone I would go to the first safe country and engage with the legitimate refugee process there, rather than run the risk of separation from my family, and / or dying in transit and / or being forced into the hands of criminal people smugglers.

Yes I know - how old-fashioned of me!

PorcupineorPineapple, you may not be aware but I am an immigrant!!, My parents came this fantastic from Dublin in 1960, Worked, paid my taxes, married and started a family, England has been wonderful to me, One of the first things I saw on the very first day was the infamous NO BLACKS NO IRISH NO DOGS sign in the newsagents windows advertising rooms ans flats to rent.

On the face of it that looks alarming, xenophobic racism of the highest (lowest,) order, but when the situation is examined in London at least, nearly all the people renting were war widows trying to make ends meet, their fear of black people was simply ignorance of people they had no knowledge of, the majority of Irishmen were single poorly educated labourers, who had no family here and no social structure in their lives except gathering in pubs, and the last thing a single woman wanted was a drink fuelled testosterone filled strapping lad coming in and crashing about the kitchen breaking crockery in a late night effort to find something to eat etc, or the possibility of worse behaviour.

NO DOGS, simply meant no pets in my house thank you. so their behaviour was not deliberately racist, they were single mainly older generation women with valid fears. It's so easy to redress history from our 'modern standpoint' without knowing all the facts. I try not to be judgemental on such things, but I certainly wouldn't be the first one to cast the stone, as I am imbued with the same human flaws as the next man.

Before, any smart alec says fck off back home Paddy, I was born in 1948, Ireland was a dominion of Britian with a sworn allegiance to the crown, so I am both British and Irish. little wonder I don't know if I'm coming or going most of the time.

POP we are on a betting forum bere. I doubt many people would price up a Syrian refugee as having the same propensity towards violence as someone from the Uk. That's not to say that they all are violent but I can't honestly believe you would price up someone from somewhere like Syria with a culture of violence and in constant upheaval in the same way as someone from the Uk.

You don't see what the issue is with uncontrolled immigration? Is that never? So there is no figure of immigration that you would ever consider an issue?