Britons 'too ignorant' for EU referendum - Viviane Reding

When firms can continually pull in ready trained labour.
There's no need for them to train school leavers for these jobs.   

It's a very nice position for large companies to be in, but an absolute disaster to the working classes who end up doing menial unskilled work. Or as the Labour party planned - living on benefits.

Count me in as being too ignorant - think I'll leave the voting to those who have a better grasp of the issues

May 15, 2016 -- 11:53AM, Dr Crippen wrote:

When firms can continually pull in ready trained labour. There's no need for them to train school leavers for these jobs.   It's a very nice position for large companies to be in, but an absolute disaster to the working classes who end up doing menial unskilled work. Or as the Labour party planned - living on benefits.

So who trains the "ready trained labour"

dave,
Isn't that blindingly obvious?

So are these trainers charities?  Why doesn't the menial labour you speak of, move abroad and get trained by these foreign charities and then come back home?

Other countries won`t take them, they are not mugs they look after their own people.
Its quite possible there are no charities in many parts of the world, and if there are they will not be helping British people.

I can't believe I'm going to have to spell it out for dave.

I will anyway.

People such as Poles leave school, get a training for a job in their own country, work in it for a few years then look across to the UK where the wages are far higher,
and decide to come here to work instead.
That's what the workers of the poorer countries all over the EU have been doing.

It seems quite extraordinary that dave doesn't recognise that scenario, and instead rambles on about charities.

That's what free movement of labour is all about, the richer countries pinching the skilled labour from the poorer countries.

That's why the UK has lost a generation of school leavers to the dole queues or the menial jobs market.

On second thoughts - perhaps Viviane Reding is correct.

Dr Crippen -  precisely what training are you referring to?  Please come up with examples where young people have been unable to get training for their chosen vocational skills and the relevant industries.  When did this phenomenon start?

May 15, 2016 -- 3:23PM, Dr Crippen wrote:

On second thoughts - perhaps Viviane Reding is correct.

Certainly in your case

Well if you don't know what free movement of labour is all about dave, then what are you doing on a thread such as this?

Dr Crippen You are a typical brexitist.  You make an emotive statement and then can't come up with any evidence to back it up.

Your statement is that skilled EU workers are impeding UK youngsters from getting the training they desire.  Please provide the evidence.

If anything the opposite is true, EU migrants are doing the unskilled jobs that UK workers can be bothered with.

*can't be bothered with

Your statement is that skilled EU workers are impeding UK youngsters from getting the training they desire.  Please provide the evidence.

You can read this for a start.

http://www.allaboutschoolleavers.co.uk/news/article/318/the-top-10-challenges-facing-young-people-today

''The number of jobless 16 to 24-year-olds also increased by 30,000 to 764,000''

Where are these jobs and training places you keep on about dave?

Anyone who has worked in industry or in skilled trades knows that for decades in Britain it was quite common practice for small firms to take on apprentices from school and train them up in a trade.

Some of these small firms benefited from this by getting good young workers who they only had to pay an apprentice wage, and the gov. paid part of this.
This was good for both small firms and young people leaving school.

At the end of 3 or 4 years some of the smaller firms then could not afford to pay a skilled wage once they were time served and often on completing the apprenticeship they would have to move on to a bigger or different firm who needed skilled people. This worked well in the main for all concerned.

Now these jobs are available to young people from all over the world. Not only can school leavers not get placed also those who do manage to get work cannot make the transition into full skilled employment with a good wage.
The firms that they in the past moved to now employ people from all over europe, and elsewhere driving the wages and job prospects down.

Now many young people in Poland and elsewhere leave school and work with a small firm for a few years, learn skills and then transfer not to bigger firms in their homeland but to Britain.
It is a win-win situation for both Polish firms and their workers.

May 15, 2016 -- 3:55PM, Dr Crippen wrote:

Your statement is that skilled EU workers are impeding UK youngsters from getting the training they desire.  Please provide the evidence.You can read this for a start.http://www.allaboutschoolleavers.co.uk/news/article/318/the-top-10-challenges-facing-young-people-today

Is that the best you can do?

Issues related to body image

Substance abuse

Not on the list:

"Unable to obtain skilled vocational training"

I used to work at an Engineering place that had a few Polish machinists. One of them could only say a few basic words in English and he was the one 'training' apprentice's. It must be hard when you cant ask questions or have things explained, no doubt further down the line the apprentice's will be found to be not up to the job and will move on to a less skilled job. But I know a few older workers too that have switched to retail/customer service because the pay is catching up and it's less stressful.

The Aussies have strict rules on employers hiring immigrants to stop undercutting and neglecting training of youngsters which is what we need. When employers say there is a skills shortage they usually mean there's a shortage at the pay they're offering and that they haven't trained youngsters properly.

In the past once Britains smaller firms had trained up 2 or 3 apprentices they may have kept 1 and found the other 2 that they could not afford to pay a time served wage work elsewhere.....they would then employ 2 or 3 new apprentices giving jobs to new schoolleavers.
This was how the system worked for many decades and by and large it was good for firms and workers.

In 2015, the number of work visas granted increased by 2% to 122,426 (for main applicants only). This increase was largely accounted for by skilled work visas granted which rose 1,920 (+4%) to 54,383.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2016

This is non-EU workers.  So presumably you brexitists will be shutting down work related immigration entirely with the corresponding plunge in investment and the message "Britain is closed for business".

The debate has got down to the essentials.
Which do you prefer?
Cameron outdoors in a shirt talking to a pre-selected group
or Boris riding his bicycle.

dave struggles to se the blindingly obvious.

If immigrants are taking jobs and there are 1.9 million unemployed, the immigrants must be taking jobs off the unemployed.
And if employers can take on ready trained workers from abroad, why should they bother going to the expense of training workers?

its even worse than all of the above,as someone working in industry i can tell you their coming here totaly unskilled and balgging it as skilled tradesmen,platers ,welders one month,joiners painters and decorators the next,hardworkers producing abysmal workmanship,doing a job twice is not cheaper than doing it correct once

Dr Crippen please supply the evidence that people are unemployed because they have the ability to be trained for a skilled job, but can't find that training?  Your last effort at evidence was pathetic.

Perhaps you should accept that many of the unemployed are incapable of skilled work or unwilling to learn and that the only result of banning skilled workers from the country would be a mass emigration of businesses and skilled jobs.

Crippen no point trying to talk logically and calmly with the remainers like dave1357

A lot of them are completely unscrupulous, scoundrels who think no one will notice.

There is nothing you can do about it, they are too lazy to think for themselves.

Do you think it ethical to steal skilled people from poorer countries dave?

lfc1971 the only "scoundrels" in this thread are those who make statements with no evidence to back them up.  I prefer to call them liars.

I am perfectly willing to accept arguments that EU immigration reduces the demand for unskilled work, but Crippen's assertion that there are unemployed Britons, with the potential and inclination to do skilled work, but who cannot get any vocational training, is without evidence.  Further his belief that banning skilled immigration would result in the creation of jobs for Britons is absurd and dangerous.

Slavery is obviously unethical Eeternaloptimist.  (I assume that is what you mean, as otherwise your question makes no sense.)

It makes perfect sense to me dave. Depriving a poorer country of its skilled workers entrenches poverty in that country. Not showing a great deal of social solidarity are you?

Clearly that one was a bit tough for you. Try an easier one.

If you follow this link:

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06113

It provides a section about apprenticeships. It's fascinating what is referred to as an apprenticeship these days. What is equally interesting though is if you look at the figures for apprenticeships within the economy they have gone through the roof. Yet at the same time apprenticeships in what most people would think of as a classical apprenticeship in the various trades has gone down markedly. Interestingly following a time when the government made it a priority.

I'm sure there are several possible explanations for this. Can you think of the one I'm thinking of?

Go on have a go. It isn't a trick question. Honest.

to work on a building site for example a uk worker needs tickets for safety courses,fork lifts,cherry pickers,scissor lifts, grinders etc all costing 1000,s , a tkt earned in europe counts for nothing on a uk site so how do you think all these skint,homeless,lots of who cant speak or write english are getting their tkts from, answer of course is they arnt hence the horrendus pics ooff accidents grinders splitting faces open etc which are used in safety videos, big buisness off course are sweeping it all under the table because it suits there needs , no skills,no training hence no industrial stoppages ,cheap labour, etc

While you're pondering that here's another for you:

If you accept that average real earnings are stuck around the levels of the early part of this century can you give us a view on what may be causing this?

Is English your first language, Eeternaloptimist?  You said "steal" from other countries.  That could only mean slavery. 

Re the report, I don't understand whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with Crippen.  He says there aren't any training places, you say that they have ballooned.

We are in danger of forgetting the huge benefit immigrants give to us as consumers. Fruit is cheaper if picked by more productive workers, houses are cheaper if built by cheaper labour.
Personally, I would like to a major cost to the country, policing, offset by the recruitment of cheaper labour: it's a perfectly brainless job at lower level and quite easily filled by Latvians and Poles. Just as the USA peopled their police forces with Irish immigrants, lets institute a positive bias. Policemens pensions are obscene and forces are corrupt or self-serving - bring in the East-Europeans!

Actually it couldn't only mean slavery dave. Our beautiful language allows both for nuance, humour but also crucially several different meanings for different words. For example if I steal down to the kitchen does that mean slavery as well?

Now stay with me here because this is important but I'll try to make it short so your ADHD doesn't cause you to lose track. Crippen made a point earlier in the thread that a generation of Britons had been lost to the menial jobs market. That isn't incompatible with either my comment or the stats. All that had to be done was to redefine what is traditionally meant by an apprenticeship. That way it becomes quite conceivable that people get apprenticeships in menial work.

Beyond that lots of other people were bringing you anecdotal evidence about what was happening in traditional trades. Once again I'll make the point because you don't seem to have grasped it. Apprenticeships in traditional trades like construction have gone down at a time when the government was making it a priority.

You didn't answer the question before. I'll have another go. Can you think why that might be?

to work on a building site for example a uk worker needs tickets for safety courses,fork lifts,cherry pickers,scissor lifts, grinders etc all costing 1000,s , a tkt earned in europe counts for nothing on a uk site so how do you think all these skint,homeless,lots of who cant speak or write english are getting their tkts from, answer of course is they arnt hence the horrendus pics ooff accidents grinders splitting faces open etc which are used in safety videos, big buisness off course are sweeping it all under the table because it suits there needs , no skills,no training hence no industrial stoppages ,cheap labour, etc

And to create a perfect storm here 1st timer. Several of the big construction and other firms have just paid compensation amounting to many millions to hundreds of people like health and safety officers who blew the whistle on unsafe practices and were blacklisted and thus could no longer find work. Despite those firms denying all the time that there was any such practice.

Personally, I would like to a major cost to the country, policing, offset by the recruitment of cheaper labour: it's a perfectly brainless job at lower level and quite easily filled by Latvians and Poles. Just as the USA peopled their police forces with Irish immigrants, lets institute a positive bias. Policemens pensions are obscene and forces are corrupt or self-serving - bring in the East-Europeans!

There's just one problem with that Broken. Under a traditional common law system like ours and indeed our cousins in America it was perfectly feasible to set up basic police forces to implement the relative few laws depriving us of certain liberties and freedoms and which protected life and property. Unfortunately you are slightly hamstrung in your vision by the fact that we are part of the EU.

You see the buggers do like making law and plenty of it. Something which will continue to get worse. You do need to be reasonably conversant with that law in order to implement it.

Why not have a Polish manned police force?
Lets not forget that the Battle Of Britain would probably have been lost without the help of Czech, Hungarian and polish fighter-pilots. And Germany weren't even at war with us.

I've just explained to you why not.

So who trains the "ready trained labour"

That was dave's first contribution to this thread.

It's quite astonishing that someone with such little knowledge about the subject, has got the cheek to challenge what is taken for granted these days, after all the discussions that have taken place regarding the supply of cheap labour from the EU.

And I see he hasn't answered one question that has been put to him.

The average bobby's head is not befuddled by EU legislation.

Unitedbiscuits is a communist, all he wants to see is the collapse of the EU with us in it.

United biscuits is always ranting about high rents.
Yet he calls for more immigration which will to push rents even higher. And keep wages down.

I often wonder whose side is he on.

I think given his contradictory postings he must as well Crips. If he's got any sense that is.

Crippen I don't need to answer questions.  I am not the one who lied to this forum.  You said that young Britons are unable to get training because of EU immigrants. Eeternaloptimist posted a link to figures that showed that in fact there was an huge increase in vocational training.

What level of education do you have Crippen, I don't believe you are really a doctor for a minute.

Is that the best you've got dave? Because if it is then you are a day late and a dollar short.

Anyway here's something that will fack up your rental business

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/

btw I love the brexitist commments - they say that EU citizens will be allowed to stay post brexit.  On what basis?  Just like their statements that we will have a free trade zone with the entire world - no basis in whatsoever.

Disgusting lying traitors.

You do need to answer questions to have any credibility dave.

Fool, would be impossible to deport people currently in the uk.

On what basis are they allowed to stay in the country without work permits or visas?

I don't think he's capable Ibrahima. He's like a blind one legged bird. I laid out a trail of bread crumbs to make it easy for him and he just hops round in circles squawking.

You don't seem to want to discuss the issues I raised earlier dave.

Why is that?

You were the one asking people for proof of their anecdotal evidence. I gave you some pretty compelling information and since then you've had your head in the sand and no matter how hard I kick you up the ar5e it won't budge.

It has already been covered, their would be an amnesty for current settlers.

If they started to try and deport people who are not allowed to be here it cost billions and the population would be down at least 10%

What are you on about Eeternaloptimist?  I have no interest in debating globalisation and its effect on the labour market in this thread.  Other than to say that if you think for a moment that putting up barriers is going to make the workers of this country wealthy, you had better read some basic economics texts.

Sonko "their (sic) would be an amnesty". What?  I don't think you have an idea of the legal complications in making that happen.  Anyway its a side issue and only illustrates the "deus ex machina" of brexitite policy.

what are the legal complications that you speak of ?

Oh i forgot, you never answer questions.

We don't need to debate globalisation dave. You asked for evidence that trades such as building were recruiting from Eastern Europe and it was having a knock on effect on the indiginous market. You weren't happy to accept anecdotal evidence from several people so I gave you evidence that at a time of a government drive and legislation to make "apprenticeships" more widespread that the one area where you would expect apprenticeships to rise had actually suffered a collapse.

And you haven't commented on that.

Over to you.

This is Crippen's post to which I responded

Dr Crippen • May 15, 2016 11:53 AM BST
When firms can continually pull in ready trained labour.
There's no need for them to train school leavers for these jobs.   

It's a very nice position for large companies to be in, but an absolute disaster to the working classes who end up doing menial unskilled work. Or as the Labour party planned - living on benefits.



He provided no evidence that a lack of training opportunities was leading to workers doing unskilled work.  You posted a link showing that there were plenty of training opportunities.

Presumably you are referring to the table on page 10?  For some reason you choose to ignore the 31,000 increase in engineering/manufacturing apprenticeships and focus on 3,000 reduction in Construction planning and building.

Crippen made no mention of specific skills in his post and in any case your figures don't prove that there are young people who want to enter construction planning and building and are being prevented from doing so by a lack of training opportunities.

Just to draw you back to reality again yes I did reference construction and building. Perhaps that had something to do with the various comments on the thread about it. It really shouldn't have blindsided you given I did make reference to it being that very thing.

I am actually now of the opinion the the 'out' campaign is full of cuckoos...

So many things could be said to further the case but feck all is being done...

That dave1357  is the best example of a useless rascal you could hope to find.

How could you respect those who vote remain if he is typical? i am quite sure he is. I don`t respect them and fortunately times up.

May 16, 2016 -- 12:08AM, Eeternaloptimist wrote:

Just to draw you back to reality again yes I did reference construction and building. Perhaps that had something to do with the various comments on the thread about it. It really shouldn't have blindsided you given I did make reference to it being that very thing.

For the last time.  I quoted the post I responded to.  I wasn't responding to you.  I was responding to Crippen. I asked Crippen to provide evidence to back up his post.  He didn't and hasn't done so.  However, you helpfully provided a link to the statistics that clearly proved him wrong.

Crikey dave are you still on about that.

I've already posted you a link. If you can't understand it that's your problem

Have you got a screw loose or something?

It's a well known fact that companies use ready trained labour from abroad in preference to training people themselves.

The NHS have been doing it for decades.
They purposely train too few people, then make up the numbers from abroad where someone else has gone to the expense of training them.

If you want a link for that as well then you'll have to look for that one yourself you idle tool.

You seem to have plenty of time on your hands.

You didn't reply to this dave.

''The number of jobless 16 to 24-year-olds also increased by 30,000 to 764,000''

''Where are these jobs and training places you keep on about dave?''

Would you like to reply to it now?

hsbc calling osbournes bluff about brexit and moving 900 high paid high skilled ,high paid IT jobs from the uk to china,poland,before the reff result is known

May 16, 2016 -- 10:05AM, Dr Crippen wrote:

You didn't reply to this dave.''The number of jobless 16 to 24-year-olds also increased by 30,000 to 764,000'' ''Where are these jobs and training places you keep on about dave?'' Would you like to reply to it now?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/youth-unemployment-rate

So youth unemployment % steadily declining over the last 5 years

The link that EE provided showing increasing training places.


So you are simply talking nonsense.

It was in Labour's manifesto at the last election that business's hiring skilled workers from outside the EU would also have to train an apprentice, business  (CBI) was strongly against it which says it all. Of course with immigration from within the EU it's a free for all for business to do what they like.

And it's 'business' who runs the show. Cameroon just a puppet..

Goldman Sachs helping to fund the IN campaign, responsible for fiddling the figures so that Greece could have the euro.
That hasn't turned out well.

let me explain it to u dodgy dave

whammy #1 - unskilled open door immigration = less wages for those at the bottom, simple supply and demand
NO PROBLEM FOR THE RICH AS THEY GET RICHER PAYING LESS WAGES

whammy #2 - ur average guy is competing in the housing market with the very people who have depressed his wages meaning housing costs go through the roof, simple supply and demand
NO PROBLEM FOR THE RICH AS THEY ARE NOT BUYING OR RENTING IN THIS MARKET

whammy #3 - the schools are jam packed meaning the standard of state education declines
NO PROBLEM FOR THE RICH AS THEY SEND THEIR KIDS TO PRIVATE SCHOOL

whammy #4 - the hospitals are so full the standard of treatment received is significantly less than it should be
NO PROBLEM FOR THE RICH AS THEY HAVE PRIVATE HEALTHCARE



now i will put this is a simple story for u


Imagine that you are on a passenger train, you bought your ticket years ago but never read the conditions or the small print. You are asked for your ticket and on inspection it clearly states - destination: Central Station United States of Europe, one way followed by the words non negotiable. You would never have got on the train had you known where it was going, and on reflection you know that you were mis-sold the ticket. When the train started the journey it had six carriages, the passengers were free to move from one carriage to another, they rarely did, as all the seats were very similar. As the train journeyed on, more and more carriages were added, until there were twenty-nine. The new passengers quickly discovered that the front carriages had far better seating, one in particular offered five star services, and many took the opportunity and moved into it. This caused so much unrest in the carriage, that the guard, a Mr Cameron promised his passengers a vote on whether or not to leave the train. Cameron called all the other guards together and presented them with a list of demands saying he needed action now. Most of the guards thought Cameron and his passengers were a whinging nuisance but acknowledged that his carriage paid a large amount towards the running costs of the train and it would be sorely missed. It was decided they would look into the matter. After several nice meals with excellent wine they agreed that they would give him limited access to the braking system. They would also throw in a very small bag of goodies but he had to promise to get control of those passengers causing the unrest and sort them out once and for all.

Cameron was pleased, informing his passengers that he had resolved all their concerns, he also warned them of bad times ahead if they voted to leave the train and that they should just settle down and get on with it.

There is a station ahead, the last one before journeys end, and as the train approaches the voting slips are being passed out. You as one of the passengers must decide to stay on or get off.

More carriages are due to be added to the train, the train has no emergency stop cord, if you are on board after the next station, you will travel to journeys end. Train spotters in the know think it will crash into the buffers. It’s up to you, but for me, no thanks Mr Cameron, I'm getting off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k

watch that 1 hour film if u want all the details

thank me later

OUT OUT FOOKIN OUT

Of course that's the case blank.

Everybody on the planet seems to know that companies don't want to train their own workers when they can import them ready trained.
Everybody except dave that is.

This is from that link that dave supplied showing the extent of the chronic youth unemployment in the UK.

United Kingdom Youth Unemployment Rate  1983-2016 | Data | Chart
Youth Unemployment Rate in the United Kingdom decreased to 13.20 percent in January from 13.40 percent in December of 2015. Youth Unemployment Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 15.32 percent from 1983 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 22.40 percent in September of 2011 and a record low of 9.70 percent in August of 1989. Youth Unemployment Rate in the United Kingdom is reported by the Eurostat.

Peaking at 22% youth unemployment in 2011.
Averaging 15.3% over the period.
And all the time the foreign workers were arriving in their droves.
This is an army of kids condemned to the scrap heap and a national tragedy.
Yet dave seems to think the shocking figures are quite acceptable in the interests of attracting cheap labour.

dave fancies himself as a future president of europe

count

Well it used to be the oilmen and bankers who ruled the world, HH. Now it's just called 'Big business"

no need to debate the issue anyone who thinks different park your arse on the gate of any big construction project,hinkley point if it ever gets off the ground and speak to everyone going through the gate they,ll be 80% minimum foreign labour no ifs or buts or opinions ,FACT

AND BEFORE you repeat the cbi speal and shoite theres 1000,s upon 1000,s of construction workers,fitters,platers,pipefitters,welders out of work and desperate for it, theres already national picketing going on ,on powers stations,biomass etc but its almost impossible to get unions,mp,s etc to show an interest and very hard to orgnise and get it out there without their help,as big mac would say they no,they they no

I'm not doubting your word here 1st timer but WTF? Seriously? MP's I can understand. Even the left wing ones are crippled by political correctness and fear of the big R. But unions? If that is the case may as well just abolish the fuccking lot. What other job do they have but to represent the workers?

Totally and utterly stunned at that revelation.

If anything the opposite is true, EU migrants are doing the unskilled jobs that UK workers *can't be bothered with.


Dave's obviously never struggled or been out of work & forced to look for 'Slave Labour' in his poncy life ... but knows Just How It Is for the Dregs of Society

get yourself on a platers,pipefitters,welders job site up north,scotland and theres 100,s of jobs been advertised at £8,£9 an hr,uk workers used to earning 14,15 plus, blue book construcgtion 18 cant afford to touch them but the poles,eastern europeans masquarading as skilled men filling their chops,unions standing aside doing nothing the games fcuked everyone trying to get out supermarkets paying better rates

I'm sure dave will be on shortly to put you right 1st timer.

another losing bet simmie

The price is only going one way sadly Burky. I could cash out now and make a good few quid but I just don't see leave getting enough votes. Easy money and heavy heart.

typical example of so called western democracy those getting absolutly strangled by th eu small buisness,s,low paid,skilled tradesmen,towns turned into ghetto,s etc will be out voted by metropolitan elite sandal wearers blubbing about people getting washed up on a beach,if we stay i suggest the next 700,000 imigrants are split equaly into every mp,s constituency and cameron makes a speech saying whilst the tory party rules turkey wont be given access to the EU, dont hold your breath

It would appear to me that the obvious solution is to simply Get Rich and benefit from the presence of of affordable Topiarists from Tallinn etc.

I can't imagine any of the towering intellects on this thread struggling with achieving Wealth.  Endless, fruitless, semi-informed repeditive bickering on an anonymous internet forum is unlikely to be the best route forward.

If pompous was an art form, ye would be Picasso..

Why, thank you.

Ozy wouldn't know towering intellect if it shat on him.

Endless, fruitless, semi-informed repeditive bickering on an anonymous internet forum is unlikely to be the best route forward.

17222 posts

new minimum wage another death nail in the low paid uk worker death cycle,
100,s of 1000,s of these imigrants will be getting no where near the new minimum wage from dodgy employers but it will be still alot more than they get at home,so buisness,s will be encouraging agencies,gangmasters etc bring more over rather than pay the uk worker the minimum wage,its that  blindingly obvious you,d have thought gideon did it on purpose,

It's going to be interesting to see the people push all their chips in.

Yep next

I like foreigners that say we aren't good enough to go it alone - they are right, we are bad lazy people. I know we work more hours but we do nothing. We are a bunch of potato eating peasants.

Dear Supporter,
On June 21st, just two days before the referendum, the BBC will host the biggest ever campaign event in British politics, with thousands of voters invited to Wembley Stadium to quiz representatives from the Leave and Remain campaigns. With the polls on a knife edge, it's possible that this debate could be the clincher, with the final result hanging on the performance of the speakers.
It is absolutely vital that the Leave platform is not dominated by the bumbling ministers and waxwork peers constantly pushed forward by the increasingly incompetent Vote Leave campaign, to the exclusion of all other voices. If they are allowed to turn this event into a flaccid Tory versus Tory dress rehearsal for their next party leadership contest, the Brexit movement will be left floundering and we could lose the referendum.

                   

Nigel Farage, a charismatic campaigner with over twenty years' experience and leader of the only major, UK-wide party dedicated to Brexit, absolutely needs to be part of the debate.

It will be completely unacceptable if Matthew Elliot and Dominic Cummings, the backstairs crawlers behind the creaking Vote Leave machine, are allowed to sideline UKIP entirely, as they tried to with the planned ITV debate, in favour of a handful of Tory ministers who have only been part of the Brexit movement for five minutes.

Vote Leave only won the designation as a result of corruption within the Electoral Commission, details of which we have passed to two Parliamentary Select Committees and which will be investigated shortly.

This referendum is not their personal property – UKIP won the last round of European elections and four million votes at the General Election, and they've earned a seat at the table. Without them this referendum would not even be happening.

                   

We also need to hear more voices from the Left, which has a proud, principled history of Euroscepticism stretching back from Kate Hoey, through Tony Benn and all the way to Hugh Gaitskell. This has been almost entirely overlooked by the Vote Leave elites, who alienated people like Kate early on and dumped token Labour figures like John Mills with unseemly haste after using them help win designation for their little clique.

Finally, we need to hear from people who have actually achieved something out in the real world, who can speak to the public from a position of authority and experience. The career politicians of the Eurosceptic aristocracy might impress their fellow-travelers in Westminster's SW1 dinner party circuit (and the journalists who have invested countless lunches in them) but they won't cut much ice with the general public in 2016.

The people making these decisions need to be told some home truths, so we are calling on all of our supporters to let the BBC bosses and the Vote Leave hierarchy know what they think.

                   

Send your tweets and e-mails to Robbie Gibb, Head of News at the BBC, and his boss Tony Hall. We have to insist that they make room for Nigel and other anti-Establishment voices at Wembley.

Just as important, contact the people to Vote Leave demanding they listen up, or there's a real risk the public will tune out from what will seem to be just another petty, stitched-up squabble between interchangeable members of a discredited and disreputable governing class.

And, if you're a UKIP supporter, please get in touch with the key UKIP representative at Vote Leave, Douglas Carswell, to ask him if he thinks it's acceptable that the group is refusing to give his party leader platform.

The referendum needs your help. Send your tweets and e-mails today.

Yours sincerely,

Arron Banks - Co-Founder

Richard Tice - Co-Founder

Andy Wigmore - Head of Communications

Robbie Gibb – Robbie.gibb@bbc.co.uk
Twitter - @RobbieGibb
Tony Hall – tonyhallpa@bbc.co.uk
Matthew Elliott – matthew.elliott@voteleave.uk
Twitter - @Matthew_Elliott
Dominic Cummings – dominic@voteleave.uk
Twitter - @odysseanproject

For Robbie Gibb Head of BBC Westminster please use
Tel: 03700 100222
For Vote Leave please use
Tel: 07544 933215

A pretty little girl named Suzy was sitting on the pavement in front of her home. Next to her was a basket containing a number of tiny creatures and in her hand was a sign announcing "FREE KITTENS".

Suddenly a line of big cars pulled up beside her. Out of the lead car stepped a grinning man.

"Hi there little girl, I'm the leader of the Conservative Party, David Cameron.

What do you have in the basket?" he asked.

"Kittens," little Suzy said.

"How old are they?" asked Mr Cameron.

Suzy replied, "They're so young, their eyes aren't even open yet."

"And what kind of kittens are they?"

"They're REMAIN IN EU SUPPORTERS," answered Suzy with a sweet smile.

Mr Cameron was delighted, a golden opportunity beckoned.
As soon as he returned to his car, he called his PR chief and told him about the little girl and the kittens. Recognizing the perfect photo op, the three of them agreed that they should return the next day and in front of the assembled media, have the girl talk about her discerning kittens.

So the next day, Suzy was again on the pavement with her basket of "FREE KITTENS," when Cameron's motorcade pulled up, this time followed by vans from BBC, ITV, Channels 4, Channels 5, CNN and Sky News, cameras and audio equipment were quickly set up, then Cameron got out of his limo and walked over to little Suzy.

"Hello, again," he said, "I'd love it if you would tell all my friends out there what kind of kittens you're giving away."

"Yes sir," Suzy said. "They're BREXIT supporters."

Taken by surprise, David Cameron stammered, "But...but...yesterday, you told me they were REMAIN IN EU SUPPORTERS."

Little Suzy smiled and said, "I know. But today, they have their eyes open.

nice

as any good gambler will tell you.

you have to be able to weigh up the possibilities based on what you know.

if you picking one or two arguments but ignoring many others how can you possibly weight up the whole picture???

thats why this should not have been put tot he voters.