***** Euro Referendrum June 23rd in/out *****

There is a series running next week in the FT analysing the pros and cons. The paper itself is pro-EU but will carrying plenty of features written by Out campaigners.

The really big unknown is how would this affect the UK economy in both the long and short term.

And this is really why the remain vote continues to be the most likely outcome, because this unknown generates the fear of losing something.

Personally I think we might just be able to suck it up, even if it means that we become like the third world banana republic economies of Switzerland, Iceland and Norway  who have clearly struggled to adapt to being part of Europe but outside of the EU. (if we ignore the anomaly that is luxembourg, these countries occupy 1st, 2nd and 5th positions when ranked by GDP per capita).

But there would be a lot of short term losses to be absorbed both by businesses and by incumbent political parties; both seem willing to sacrifice the country's Sovereignty rather than making what I consider to be the decision that best serves the interests of the country's citizens.

well firstly forget this bull about "special status" it is just an attractive tag. Because of the joining conditions of 1972, the European Court of Justice has the power to veto any changes agreed upon by any nation after that date.

take a look at the graph I have put up and see which country has been voted against the most times......................................................

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the Conservative manifesto for the general election claimed that their would be a renegotiation of the Lisbon Treaty, and Poles working in the UK would not be allowed to send child benefit back home for kids that didn't even live in the UK. Neither of those pledges were even on the table yesterday.

This thread was always going to struggle against the "anal lube" thread

Vote out firstly to save our NHS. Also for British jobs for British people, better wages with less competition for jobs. Re-gain control of our borders and end the flood of immigrants arriving here.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/

Surprised at the odds, immigration huge issue at the moment

out for me

No brainer for me.  Out it is

Europe needs us more than we need them.

Stow judge sums it all up perfectly

Four months of endless scaremongering coming up, we will all be sick to death of it come April let alone June

a big OUT

Out. If we don't have control of our borders we have nothing.

Out. For obvious reasons

In

Sorry meant Out

whos going to be the first "In" to post?

everyone you speak to wants out,  yet the B/Sh1t polls say around
55% want to stay in - Who the **** are these 55%

1.38 is basically free money. Now he's got his 'better deal' it's just a process....expect scare mongering, better together etc.

I would LOL so hard if we voted no though....Cameron would look a right mug.

RR I don't think the white van man type who post on this forum are a good representation of the public demographic

A word of warning... The greek people voted 'no' in their last referendum....and the greek PM still signed up to the bailout even against the peoples wishes.

Some sort of strokes already been crossing my mind,

We'll be in guaranteed

1.38 price to stay in. Looks like some kind of joke price to me, certainly at this moment in time.

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LOL

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My brother will be out of the country during the referendum and is a vote to leave. Would facts or another stay voter not vote to just even things up? tia

is there any irony in him being out of the country?

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What are the advantages of staying in

Number 1 item in the EU budget is farm subsidies - a net transfer of income from average people to people who own land.
There are many tenant farmers - the subsidies still get transferred to the landowners due to higher rents.
Subsidies which make us wetter and fatter.

Out.

Even Priti Patel is on board now, the brexit is really gathering pace.

With Dave lying every day he could be out of a job very soon.

Out,
and by Christmas, "Big Dave" will have been Axed by the Businessmen pulling his Strings,
I Never realised how out of touch he is with Reality,
And a lot of the Press are picking up on this.

In voter here

A few things to remember.
Voting changes nothing, never has, never will. Only violence or revolution changes the system.
David Cameron does not run this country, big business does
The idea is to have Europe under one name and not made up of little states we call countries. This has been happening for years over here, with the steady erosion of the British way of life, pubs, industry etc.


The result is as predictable as the Scottish referendum, as if anyone believes that result.

Just get what you can on the in vote because we are going nowhere.

In or out.
What if doing the okey-cokey really is what it's all about?

The more miserable you are the more likely you'll vote out.

Men in the 49 to 65 year age group are the most miserable group in Britain......how many on Chit Chat and the politics forum fall into that category?...you'd think about 90%

So any poll on these forums will give an overwhelming out.

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think bringing forward reversed immigration is an interesting idea.
at least we can say we voted for it so cant really blame any party for the problems when they happen.

saying that it will inevitably happen anyway.

so the question is is it better to be the one controlling it or do we wait for the rest fo the eu to pick up and let them leave naturally?

if we need the numbers up again we can always go to syria or the commonwealth to beg workers to come here so we can prop up our economy with cheap labour again.

im sure many buy to let investors will be voting out   NOT

The biggest problem for the brexit brigade is that Farage, Galloway, IDS, Gove, Grayling and (probably) BoJo lack gravitas.

Theresa May has probably missed her best chance of becoming the next prime minister.

wouldnt listen to any of em anyway.

farage is anti immigration yet the whole economy boomed and is being propped up off the back of it.

that simply makes him look a ****

Nigel nor UKIP are anti immigration. Immigrants that have skills and something to offer are more than welcome to the UK. Tell me what the load of Roma beggars are bringing to the streets of Sheffield?

What effect will the fact there could be thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters on the piss up in France when we vote? Or the fact that all three teams (or one in particular) could have just been thumped and eliminated in embarrassing circumstances by our European counterparts just a few days before the vote?

The result is as predictable as the Scottish referendum, as if anyone believes that result.

Poor losers are the yessers. Less than 38% of the electorate were enticed to vote yes. Thank f*ck us NO voters saved Scotland from disaster.

Burton-Brewers  • February 21, 2016 12:07 PM GMT 
Nigel nor UKIP are anti immigration. Immigrants that have skills and something to offer are more than welcome to the UK. Tell me what the load of Roma beggars are bringing to the streets of Sheffield?

Every time Farage talks of immigration he makes that specific point. It's just that some people choose to ignore it and accuse him of racism.
As regards the loads of beggars we've let in I wonder what the likes of G1 think of them.

Boris say's OUT !

I'm with BoJo

***** Euro Referendrum June 23rd in/out *****

Has anybody made the case for either camp based on solid facts?

If I were to vote on a purely selfish basis I would vote to stay in. If we leave the EU there are bound to be short term consequences which we all pay for. Any real benefits, if there are any, will take a number of years to reach fruition by which time I will either be dead or too old to care.
While we are in, the influx of cheap labour keeps prices down and ensures pensions are paid.
So it has to be IN for me, although I might be persuaded to vote out on a purely philanthropic basis.

England and N.I. football fans are your typical 'No' voters.... and they will be in France in the Euros


In the meantime Scotland, the 'Yes' brigade will be a high turn out...cos they 'didnae' qualify.

Might have to change the date of the vote

Laughable that they can argue our security is improved by the E.U., which oversees a borderless continent... They don't have the first idea who half the people coming into Europe are and nor do they appear to care.

From a betting perspective, tempted to lump on us staying in. Firstly because it's what I expect to happen, unfortunately. Secondly because if it doesn't happen I really couldn't care less about losing it all it'd be such a great day.

Don't think this is the best place to get the best arguments of both sides, as 95% on this forum seems to be in favour of "out". I'm not even British, but if my country held a referendum, I would vote to stay in.

The way I see it negotiating a deal like that of Norway or Switzerland would be pointless at best. Both Norway and Switzerland are obliged to implement EU legislation, so wouldn't solve any problem of legislation being made in Brussels. Both Norway and Switzerland are also part of Schengen (one of the worst ideas of the union alongside the common currency imho), and as far as I know there's nothing stopping me as a EU-national from moving to Switzerland or Norway and work there, so probably wouldn't do much to reduce immigration. Not that I see EU-citizens who actually work for a living as a problem. You might save a few pennies on membership fees, but would on the other hand give up much political influence. Like the power to veto new member states for example.

You could of course go for a clean break, and while that might solve some problems, it would be terrible news for pretty much all companies in my stock portfolio, and for the economy in general. I wouldn't trust my government to negotiate a better deal than what Norway and Switzerland have managed.

Plus within a couple of years I'm quite likely to take advantage of the free movement in Europe myself (don't worry, I'm not moving to England).

I'm not exactly impressed with the decision making at the EU level, but I blame our own national politicians for my country going down the drain, not the EU. The biggest problems we have I think are solvable without leaving the EU, and they certainly wouldn't be automatically solved by leaving.

easy out

People don’t seem to realize that since we and every other country in the EU have signed up to various world trade deals, the latest being TTIP, this in affect has rendered membership of the EU on an economic basis worthless.  All we are doing now is paying the EU good money that should be spent elsewhere.

OUT

I don't want to be like Norway or Switzerland Mr Andersson, I want to be Great Britain. How will you solve the muslim problem for starters without leaving the EU, your government won't solve it they are too liberal, and even pressurise your media into helping with the cover up.

I agree that they are too liberal, but that wouldn't change if we left the EU. Many EU-countries manage to keep down muslim immigration pretty well. It's about making your country an unattractive destination for asylum seekers (you could always make exceptions if a war started in a nearby country to which we have close ties). Personally I would like us to strike deals with some poor non-EU countries about sending refugees to them (Australia has done something like that). "Congratulations you have been given permanent right of residency in the peaceful country of Tanzania. The bus to the airport will leave in two hours." The number of asylum seekers would soon dwindle, and nobody would be sent back to a certain death. Something that has been seriously discussed is simply sending back refugees who come from Germany or Denmark (which most asylum seekers do), and say that Germany/Denmark are safe countries. That would be possible at the moment since we actually have border controls right now, and I don't think we would be kicked out of the EU for it.

Out

DStyle   
""Theresa May has probably missed her best chance of becoming the next prime minister.""

Without doubt, she is one of the most incompetent idiots employed,
UK Borders still have no idea who is and who is not entering the U.K.,
When passing through Luton airport, I was told by passport control,
I had just arrived from Seattle(USA)-Schiphol (Amsterdam),
in Fact, I had just arrived from Kyiv (Ukraine)

She helped pass a bill that demands a U.K. Resident must prove they earn £19,000 per annum before their partner and Family can reside in the UK (Temp Residency)from a Non EU Country (Contrary to EU Family rulings),
A Container full of Illegals arrive on UK Soil, every week,
Roll on Christmas when May and Cameron are Gone and Fed to the Wolves.

A corrupt institution we pay 11 billion into. Undemocratic. Policies made up by lobbyists to the unelected officers. A collapsing eurozone(we are told we depend on the eu for exports) - there are 180 plus other countries to trade with!!
No control over how many come here.  Wages forced down. Gang masters paying less than minimum wage.  Non- union labour. We have about 6 percent of the vote in the eu and don't have any influence anyway.
The audit has never been signed off !!!!

Ask, where does your money go?   20 billion to Latvia  and 40 billion to poland  4billion to the UK

what's not to like ha ha!!!

out

in

macarony 21 Feb 16 17:11 
***** Euro Referendrum June 23rd in/out *****

Has anybody made the case for either camp based on solid facts?

It's a fact this club costs us 55 million a day - we can spend that ourselves if out.

It's a fact that the 2 richest countries in europe are NOT in the EUSSR.

It's a fact that both these countries, switzerland and norway have had 2 referendums and despite politicians there begging them to vote to join (sound familiar?) the people have rejected the EUSSR, by 80% last time in norway.

It's a fact that if they can do it so can we. It's  a fact they are wealthy because of oil and banking, here we had/have both but we're potless. Norwegian national sovereign wealth fund presently over $300 billion and pension fund over $800 billion. We got nada.

It's a fact that the 1 million+ migrants recently admitted to germany will soon have the paperwork to travel anywhere in the EUSSR.

It's a fact that the EUSSR want to admit turkey which has a population of 78 million. Poland with 38 million population saw 1 million come here. If the numbers for turkey were duplicated then we can expect 2 million. It's a fact that our min wage goes over £7 per hour in April and it's a fact that the average salary in turkey is £7 per day. They will have every motivation to come.

It's a fact that SISO (sign in sod  off) in order to  collect payment for daily attendance of the EUSSR parliament is still rife. Essentially theft from the public purse made legal. And that's before we start with the expense fiddling.

It's a fact that there is constantly a shortage of brown envelopes in brussels.

It's a fact that these meaningless words cameron got the other night can be challenged at the EUSSR court. Tusk said he "expected" the court to have no issue with it. It's a fact he could be wrong.

It's a fact that 85% of EUSSR migrants claim no in work benefit as they are young and without a family, making the whole thing a charade anyway.

OUT OUT FOOKIN OUT.

Anything supported by boris Johnson,redwood,ian Duncan smith,hoey and a few other loons must be worth leaving well alone thank you very much I#'m sure voters under 50 will be very impressed with that combination!!

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discussion on victoria derbyshire show now

out

95% of British businesses have no trading deals with the EU

Oasis v Blur

Proportional Representation v First Past The Post

In v Out

You just know the Great British public can't be trusted to get these big issues right.

Burt06,

It's of course none of my business how you vote in the UK, but if you think EU citizens coming to work in the UK is a problem, then you shouldn't point at Switzerland or Norway as some great model countries. Because both Norway and Switzerland have more EU-immigration than the UK (per capita of course). I found a news article about this from 2014:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html

Switzerland in particular have loads of foreign born workers. All EU-citizens have full access to both the Norwegian and Swizz job markets (currently some restrictions for Romanians and Bulgarians in Switzerland, but those restrictions will expire in a couple of months).

About Turkey joining the EU - As long as you are full EU members you have the power to stop them from becoming members. All countries must agree before any new country can become a member, so if all other countries want Turkey to join, you can stop it anyway, as long as you are full members. Non-members like Norway and Switzerland have no say on the matter.

While Norway and Switzerland don't pay as much as they would have if they were full members, they do pay some money to the EU. If you want a deal similar to that of Norway, you can expect to still pay between a third and half of your current net contribution in various EU fees.

funny how these people suddenly pop up - wonder who told them to do so

me?

those 2 countries have a joint population of just over 12 million - we are approaching 70 million

the deal we could negotiate would be different and unique

they need us more than we need them

as cameron said of course we will survive outside the EUSSR

so lets do that and make our own laws

re turkey they will allow them to join because thats what they do
they are already preparing to give them visa free travel
and we all know what that will mean

politicians think in terms of numbers - adding to the GDP, for that you need a regular influx of young workers, good for GDP and the ponzi pension schemes but bad for any and all average worker

Heard the scare mongerers (via Sarpong on QT I think) saying that 3m Brits depend on the EU for jobs. Oh no, surely therefore we have to stay in else we will have another 3m unemployed?

Then someone else (Paphitis?) said that 5m EU workers depend on Britain for their jobs. So those 3m jobs won't be lost then, unless the EU decides to screw themselves out of 5m jobs just to prove a point.

Lots of smoke and mirrors. On both sides, not saying its only the ins that are at it. Need to just go on what you think as I doubt we will get truth out of this even up to the day. Every claim by either side will be denied by the others. I'm a No. An island nation should control its own borders.

Speaking to the European Parliament's International Trade Committee on the 5th of November 2014, Atle Leikvoll, Norwegian Ambassador to the EU, told MEPs that Norway doesn't pay for the EEA which grants them access to the EU Single Market. Instead, Norway pays 1.8 billion to help 'reduce social and economic disparities' in the European Union. At the same time, the UK pays over £20 billion pounds to the EU for only slightly better access to the market especially in agricultural products.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY4B9iYcVjo&feature=youtu.be

Mr Anderson -
Switzerland is Changing it`s Rules and the Banks and Pharmaceutical sectors Don't Like it;

The Swiss government has outlined legislation aimed at putting in place curbs on EU migration backed in a referendum last February.
As part of a bill published on Wednesday (11 February), quotas will apply to foreign workers based in the Alpine country for more than four months from February 2017, while recruitment priority will be given to Swiss residents.
The bill would require firms to demonstrate that no Swiss workers qualify for a job before obtaining a work permit for a foreign national to fill the post.


The government pledged to renegotiate a free movement of persons agreement, in force with the EU since 1999, which enables nationals on both sides to move freely between the two territories. Switzerland is not a member of the EU.
Under the measures unveiled on Wednesday, which will require parliamentary approval, quotas will apply to foreign workers who are in Switzerland for more than four months, while recruitment priority will be given to Swiss residents.
Ministers want to maximise the use of the Swiss workforce by encouraging more women and older individuals into the workforce.
Swiss banks and pharmaceutical companies, which tend to hire a high number of staff from the EU, have been outspoken in their opposition to the move to limit immigration from the bloc since the referendum.

The six Cabinet rebels voting for Britain to leave the EU have been banned from using any government material or resources to campaign for Out, under strict new rules published today.

Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet Secretary, sent a letter to all civil servants this morning telling them that government resources must only be used in the referendum campaign if it supports the Government's official stance in support of Britain's membership of the EU.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3459873/Cameron-loyalist-William-Hague-demands-Brexit-rebels-campaign-spare-time-PM-heads-London-sell-deal-voters.html

Quite ironic that Dave should have a dig at Boris for having Galloway and Farage as bed fellows, when he's tucked up with Steptoe and wee Jimmy Krankie.

when we leave I wouldn't suggest a holiday to france

you won't be able to get over that fence at calais

if you somehow did, think of the nasty looks you will get from the french

they probably won't even talk to you!!!

^ A damn good argument for OUT then