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At the Cenotaph
At the Cenotaph
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Replies: 80
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you got over william the conquer yet?
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Good show but the North Koreans do this sort of thimg so much better.
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My old man survived the war.
He says it's about time we remembered the deaths of all war dead not just our own. |
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It's an honourable sentiment injera, and a not uncommon one.
I was reading only yesterday about the Red Baron and the respect they gave him on his death even though he was proficient at killing allied airmen. The man himself had silver cups made for each of his confirmed shoot downs but when silver ran scarce he refused to have metal cups made and decided to stop with it. However forthright people believe my views to be the truth is my great grandfather died as a result of kitchener's second wave of conscription (he only just qualified on the upper age, even when the country was running out of fodder) and my grandfather was in North Africa and survived the Second World War but distanced himself of the whole affair and would never talk of it. Both of them were dragged in whether they believed in the cause or not. You tend to find many innocent men who on both sides had nothing to do with the affair get dragged into it. Just as today non of the decisions that are made are mine, my hands are clean as were my ancestors. You'd have to have to believe in something pretty strongly to lay your life down for that cause, my original question was posed to mobo about whether he would now, he entitled to say he would, but I see it as tasset agreement or defence of the odious actions that weren't of my making. |
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It should all be so simple.
You buy and wear a poppy because it's a symbol of a gratitude far greater than you can ever express, to members of our armed forces who gave their limbs, mental health and lives to preserve the tattered remnants of our freedom. You are making no comment on the politics behind that sacrifice. You are not endorsing war (war being the utter nadir of man's existence). You are not remembering 'our' armed forces above everyone else's (there's a certain American vet who I know my family remember and think about with all our hearts on this day). You are not using it as a marketing exercise to parade your notional good taste ('Oh this? My silk / bling encrusted poppy? Oh yes, it goes so well with my handbag and outsized ego dahling'). You don't feel smug and superior to anyone not wearing one and you certainly don't challenge their caring credentials (remember that bit about freedom in the opening paragraph?) It was great and very emotional to see the turnout this morning at the War Memorial in my village. One great collective act of remembrance, by babies through to pensioners, with everyone sporting a simple British Legion poppy. Well that's my take on it. |
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Good post Dusty.
My concern is that we 'remember' and do not 'learn' from history. War = failure. WW1 should of course never have happened. Egos, pride, arrogance, misunderstandings etc caused it. From there we had Hitler's vengeance brought about because of WW1. And so it goes on.. I respect a soldier's courage but so many were conscripted and did what they were told or they would be shot. More recently, kids have been sent to die for political conflicts. My emotion is more pity than admiration. As for those who have survived Iraq and Afgan, no mention, and I mean NO mention has been made of how many THEY have killed, injured, traumatised and brutalised in their obedience to their superiors.. |
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my friends father was a victim of w.w.2 and an uncle I had waslost.
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Do we really have to put up with all this rememberance each and every year? Just listened to Nicholas Witchell on the BBC news. I think I'm in North Korea. And then having some silly posh boy soldier get another dig in on Corbyn. Team GB, obsessed with the war. Get over it. Sinerely hope the next generation leaves it in the past, where it is. History.
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I don't think we should forget sacrifice, it's perhaps the greatest of all virtues, but it can be dangerous if rememberence has some link to jingoistic beliefs or is used as symbolic by the leaders to remind all that there is a patriotic duty to protect them.
People are wiser now, people feel more disincentivised with ruling classes or guff political processes, I've often believed conscription wouldn't stand a chance today, the mass of people refusing would be too great. |
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dustybin 08 Nov 15 12:53
Seems to me these turn outs with the royals present with politicans leaves a distinct taste in the mouth when it was those 'normal' folk's bravery that defended their lot Spot on. The true reason for the day has long been lost. Now it's pure tokenism. |
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Injera
Correct. |
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There is a big difference between today's armed forces and those in WW1 and 2.
I find it hard to have sympathy with people who join up today. |
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People are wiser now, people feel more disincentivised with ruling classes or guff political processes, I've often believed conscription wouldn't stand a chance today, the mass of people refusing would be too great.
Don't confuse wisdom with cynicism |
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I am glad I would never have most of you sort standing by me in an area of conlict - you are truly frightening.
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rogerthebutler says it all and very eloquently in my view.
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Injeras post is fantastic. Peter hitchens was screamed down years ago on QT when he stated a simple fact that most army recruits come from extremely poor backgrounds where they are indirectly forced into the army through lack of wisdom and naivety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWbwIwAhsYw |
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as I have said before - most of you would be debating whether or not it was legal to fight an evil ideology(nazism) while they swept ashore - if that sort of attitude had been allowed
just as the same peacenik attitude you have towards the latest ideology to threaten our way of life |
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Roger
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous. Mobo You like to single out a window in history without entertaining the wider picture. The question of a present danger on the doorstep didn't just spring up with little or no warning it was the result of a number of things, many of which had been within our control and indeed occurred BECAUSE of our actions. To say that an individual who had no influence on those events is wrong because they don't instinctively give the answer you want is unfair, it's like saying 'we f ucked everything up and now you are wrong because you arnt supplying the laying down your life as a result' |
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Diogenes said 'I am a world citizen'
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How about telling us about your great grandfather ? what age was he ? What regiment was he in ?
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41
Royal Irish rifles |
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I dare say everyone on here has relatives with involvement and if you don't know I believe it's your duty to find out.
My other great grandfather was an engineer for the air corps, survived ww1 and come ww2 was old enough to refuse when they asked him to do the same. What turned out to be his son in law (my other grandfather) built battleships and wasn't allowed to join up due to his specialities in manufacturing |
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You sound proud of them and so you should be , today is about remembering the fallen ,thats what it is about ,not a day for politics imo .My own grandfather was a boy sailor in 1915 was lucky and lived to tell the tale but the casualties suffered in the trenches were immense and should never be forgotten .
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I understand your point breadnbutter
Though it's not pride I feel as much as it is pity. Not one of my ancestors were professional soldiers and that's the telling factor; non of them chose to do it. Some glory in it on erroneous patriotic grounds almost. For me it's anger I feel that they and each and everyone of them that had no interest in war had to do it because of the ills of man and the idiocracy of leadership that doesn't deserve our respect. |
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Incidentally, I believe we are products of our environment and the effects of all the hollow gestures of politicians today regarding what I see as state driven mercenary and the results of those before them in wrong deceitful and ultimately greedy actions are cause and effect have resulted in me being a political nihilist.
One of the saddest poems I ever read was about ww1. It was about a mother sat at home wondering about her son and how he was while she knitted him socks, and all the time he was already dead and his skull was getting trampled dealer into the mud. |
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b.t.w. Kaiser bill was queen victorias son ,to her german husband albert
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Roger
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous. Tell me more. Especially how every civilization in mankind's history has been built on opportunism and throat cutting. Tell me about the Spartans and their moderate and thoughtful attitude to their world. I can only re-iterate the point I made yesterday. War is not something in which to glorify, but Rememberance Day for me is still about saying a heartfelt thanks to all those - whether conscripted or otherwise - who gave their lives for our freedom today. You can debate the nature and extent of that 'freedom' and the politics behind the conflicts in which those Forces fought, but not on Rememberance day. Of course, I am increasingly in the minority with the above view, with the politicisation of the poppy as well as its 'blinging up' and castigation of anyone not wearing one. |
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learner
not her son but her grandson. His mother was Victoria but that Victoria was the eldest daughter of Victoria and Albert. |
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Roger.
I could happily tell you more but it would be more convenient for you to go read about the school of cynasim and I accept the sentiment that this isn't the place for that analysis. But I will say that it's ironic you mentioning the Spartans, as a form of indoctrination of its people it would be a particularly hard sell to make the people believe they were worth emulating.....instead they chose the Greeks with which to attempt to condition the collective psyche of today. In reference to the point about sacrifice, I agree. Though I don't simply accept the line that we should feel pride, or honour in the acts that resulted in their deaths that so many use in the conditioning of the masses. It to me is just another way of spinning (or deceiving) the people. We should feel sorrow and sympathy for those that found themselves in that position, and recognise that it's artificial man made differences like borders or vested interests that are inherently malevolent that are the breeding grounds that result in way. The first step in doing so is to recognise our own actions that contribute to the end result, if we don't do that then the problem will remain perennial. |
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Fair point - but to me that's all just fighting City Hall.
Indoctrination (as you call it) is the way of society. It's pretty stark to call it that, because it implies 1984-style mind control, instead of a generally accepted collective wisdom and set of values that society buys into. Until we get to a kind of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon style anarchism, I think we are stuck with the kind of 'conditioning of the masses' / societal norms you've outlined. I think we can agree the politics behind war is where the greatest issues lie. It's the poor bullet-stoppers that I'm remembering on Remembrance Day |
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Indeed roger.
We shall leave the examination of the choice of vernacular till another day  |
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The poppy is politicised, like it or not, its funds can go to soldiers who took part in bloody sunday
should we remember the UK citizens shot by the army in the UK in the 70s? Its a white wash to blindly except what bbc is churning out on remembrance sunday, i would ay most households are not as gung ho in their thoughts on remembrance sunday, but bbc opts to show the establishment line and paints it as a 'societal norm' to celebrate soldiers and war, they try to form opinion rather than reflecting it. Same with their coverage off the monarchy |
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Brendan
I can only tell you the way I feel about the poppy and remembrance day. I don't watch the BBC coverage so couldn't really comment on it. |
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I rarely watch the BBC on such events,usually simpering and over the top. However,I do feel it is important to acknowledge the sacrifices many have given to preserve our freedom,including a grandfather blown up in WW1 and an uncle in the same war.Best to remember it quietly in a sober manner and rememebr the poppy symbolised the carnage in Flanders fields.If you choose to ignore it by all means but it says much about you too,can't have it both ways.
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in some of the major battles ovrr half a million allies were killed
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I recall reading more people were killed in the final year of ww1 than the whole of ww2
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It's sometimes asked what would have happened if Hitler had won the Battle of Britain and then defeated us on land.
I wonder about WW1.. what may have happened if we'd lost that? |
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Wouldn't have had WW2
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Amazon Prime have a series produced by Ridley Scott based on Phillip Dick's novel about a future where the nazis won ww2 and divided America between themselves and Japan.
I've seen the pilots to it and it's pretty good, it gets properly released soon. (Hope this wasn't what mobo was referring to about 'if the nazis had won')  |
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I remember seeing a documentary about the Manhattan project, the A-bomb being the race between America and the nazis.
It is said that although the nazis had lost before it was completed and Japan wouldn't have lasted on their own, that the scientists actually said when asked about what they were going to do next, 'we are scientists not politicians' (I.e. We drop the bomb irrespective) Makes you think. |