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live now on 13 year olds taken to yemen from britain
witnessed young as 10 being married off!!
witnessed young as 10 being married off!!
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I have a friend in the real world who thinks just like you naydam where the law is more important than the suffering that is caused by these situations.
Very frustrating.
Very frustrating.
Also just in case I'm being unfair could you explain where you stand on the issue of Muslims in today's world?
despite it being plastered all over the media he pretends he doesn't know and asks silly questions about penetration.
Why does he think charities and aljazeera guardian etc talk about the ruination of young girls bodies - multiple pregnancies by the age of 14 and children being taken from the UK.
Why does he think charities and aljazeera guardian etc talk about the ruination of young girls bodies - multiple pregnancies by the age of 14 and children being taken from the UK.
I don't even know who ARE the Muslims in today's world! Do you? Who would YOU suggest are the Muslims? The REAL Muslims, that is.
Mobo. I asked that question as delicately as I could because it simply does not make any sense at all for an adult to engage in sex with a child. The disastrous outcome is obvious.
And why do you think that I enquire as to Islam's stance on marriage/sex/age/consent? I doubt if it approves of situations like that. But nobody ever provides a definitive response. And before you say it...yes, I DO know that the Prophet married a 9 year-old!
Mobo. I asked that question as delicately as I could because it simply does not make any sense at all for an adult to engage in sex with a child. The disastrous outcome is obvious.
And why do you think that I enquire as to Islam's stance on marriage/sex/age/consent? I doubt if it approves of situations like that. But nobody ever provides a definitive response. And before you say it...yes, I DO know that the Prophet married a 9 year-old!
the so called religion does back it as did the warmonger so called prophet
you are some piece of work naydam - I thought you did not know about it, yet you seem to know all about the guy who started it all and his tastes in very young girls ha ha
Mobo. So, just to clarify things: Are you saying that Islam, per se, supports marriage of 8 year-old girls to 40 year-old men? Are you also saying that it supports sexual intercourse between the man and the girl?
I would have thought that marriage at thirteen would be easily understood...the age of consent is only 14 years in Spain for example (I believe). In many societies, including Christian ones, a female must be a virgin when she marries, otherwise she is seen as 'damaged goods' and, therefore, worthless. This causes much inter-family friction, apparently.
I think that the events you describe, which are, indeed, upsetting, are generally carried out illegally by illiterate/poorly educated sections of their society. There are lots and lots of examples that you could hold up...but this is because there are lots and lots of people in that category. And they could be of any religion whatsoever. It only requires poverty.
I DO wish that you would cease your personal remarks. This is a forum. You are far from correct in your assessments.
For example: Your post at 19:12. What do you mean "some piece of work"? You thought I didn't know about what? You never stop banging on about Mohammed and his wife FFS!
You would probably feel a lot better if you actually made yourself DO something about the plight of these children instead of just misinterpreting my posts.
'Arranged Marriages' are a totally different thing. These have been the norm in many societies for generations. Their success rate probably exceeds that of the modern western method of selection (see Jeremy Kyle)
I would have thought that marriage at thirteen would be easily understood...the age of consent is only 14 years in Spain for example (I believe). In many societies, including Christian ones, a female must be a virgin when she marries, otherwise she is seen as 'damaged goods' and, therefore, worthless. This causes much inter-family friction, apparently.
I think that the events you describe, which are, indeed, upsetting, are generally carried out illegally by illiterate/poorly educated sections of their society. There are lots and lots of examples that you could hold up...but this is because there are lots and lots of people in that category. And they could be of any religion whatsoever. It only requires poverty.
I DO wish that you would cease your personal remarks. This is a forum. You are far from correct in your assessments.
For example: Your post at 19:12. What do you mean "some piece of work"? You thought I didn't know about what? You never stop banging on about Mohammed and his wife FFS!
You would probably feel a lot better if you actually made yourself DO something about the plight of these children instead of just misinterpreting my posts.
'Arranged Marriages' are a totally different thing. These have been the norm in many societies for generations. Their success rate probably exceeds that of the modern western method of selection (see Jeremy Kyle)
Dukeofpuke? If you mean me, I would appreciate a bit more detailed reasoning behind your name-calling in order that I may respond.
It is only good manners.
It is only good manners.
Off goes naydam to spain - irrelevant - just to cover up, obfuscate and attempt to confuse the quasi religion of his friends and thei sick practices they do all over the world. It was you that made asked the sick question about whether penetration took place when organisations have all the evidence that this is taking place with girls as young as 8 and girls having had several pregnancies by 14 which have severely damaged them - which you pretend to not know about.
Well Mobo, the truth is that I didn't know that 'it goes on'. That was why the question was needed. Any normal person would assume that sex did NOT take place because it simply beggars belief that anybody, however illiterate, wouldn't foresee the results.
And NO, I don't know anything of multiple pregnancies by age 14. How could I? You obviously trawl areas of the Internet where I don't go.
Things like your pictures from back copies of the Guardian...the only thing I've ever used the Guardian website for is the crossword.
And NO, I don't know anything of multiple pregnancies by age 14. How could I? You obviously trawl areas of the Internet where I don't go.
Things like your pictures from back copies of the Guardian...the only thing I've ever used the Guardian website for is the crossword.
You are a joke naydam. You know about the 9 year old girl marrying the so called prophet yet you know nothing about the Islamic ideology and its preference for young girls despite it being plastered all over the media. Pull the other leg Naydam.
The attempted slur 'you obviously trawl areas of the internet where I don't go' is pathetic. This is from mainstream media guardian etc and aljazeera - only yesterday a full programme and not me trawling the internet. Also from adverts on mainstream television asking for help for these damaged children . You know nothing about it ha ha. Very strange from you.
The attempted slur 'you obviously trawl areas of the internet where I don't go' is pathetic. This is from mainstream media guardian etc and aljazeera - only yesterday a full programme and not me trawling the internet. Also from adverts on mainstream television asking for help for these damaged children . You know nothing about it ha ha. Very strange from you.
Naydam, I cannot hold my silence on your replies any longer, you've had enough rope.
To say you didn't know that 'it goes on' is staggering beyond belief. Why did you need to ask the question when every man and his dog knows 'it goes on'?
You didn't (or still) don't know about the multiple births to under 14's is just another example of the sand in your eyes, having had your head buried under the dunes for so long.
As for others trawling the internet in places you don't go, how about spending less time doing the Guardian crossword, switching off BBC news, open your door and spend a little more time outside.
Or shall we all on here take you as a wind up merchant?
To say you didn't know that 'it goes on' is staggering beyond belief. Why did you need to ask the question when every man and his dog knows 'it goes on'?
You didn't (or still) don't know about the multiple births to under 14's is just another example of the sand in your eyes, having had your head buried under the dunes for so long.
As for others trawling the internet in places you don't go, how about spending less time doing the Guardian crossword, switching off BBC news, open your door and spend a little more time outside.
Or shall we all on here take you as a wind up merchant?
naydam,you arein denial if you actually believe it is only the illiterate and uneducated within Islam that support under age marriage and under age sex. Apparently 45% of muslims in UK,sorry haven't got the link to endorse it, do not agree with our form of democratic government and age of consent laws.There will be variations within that 40% of course but they aren't all illiterate.
naydam,you arein denial if you actually believe it is only the illiterate and uneducated within Islam that support under age marriage and under age sex. Apparently 45% of muslims in UK,sorry haven't got the link to endorse it, do not agree with our form of democratic government and age of consent laws.There will be variations within that 40% of course but they aren't all illiterate.
I reckon you (naydam) would consider an eight year old girl as being suitable for marriage,
as long as the proper religious rules are followed. Mustn't upset them must we?
as long as the proper religious rules are followed. Mustn't upset them must we?
In Islam, not every person consummates their marriage physically straight away; sometimes the girl may be very young, and it is considered more suitable to wait until she is older.
It is forbidden in Islam for parents (or others) to force, coerce, or trick youngsters into marriage. Unfortunately, there have been cases in the UK where this has happened amongst Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs from the Indian subcontinent.
you forgot to mention the honour killings for some who didnt comply to these weirdos
Why would I mention that? Once again, it is an activity that, apparently, is strictly NOT permitted by Islam. See my post @ 19:01.
My post5 @ 18:59 shows that my theory of a 'delayed consummation' is not unusual. That is why I asked the rather delicate question.
I don't yet know the out of the investigation into the possible child-rape case which was highlighted by Mobo. He might be able to help trace the outcome...after all it was his link. The last situation that I was aware of was that there were some accusations which were denied and the police were going to investigate.
My post5 @ 18:59 shows that my theory of a 'delayed consummation' is not unusual. That is why I asked the rather delicate question.
I don't yet know the out of the investigation into the possible child-rape case which was highlighted by Mobo. He might be able to help trace the outcome...after all it was his link. The last situation that I was aware of was that there were some accusations which were denied and the police were going to investigate.
To think that marriage is acceptable for eight year olds under any circumstances is just wrong in my opinion.
Stealing their childhood. Unforgivable.
Stealing their childhood. Unforgivable.
Maybe you need to bear in mind that, in Islam, a man is allowed up to four wives, provided that he can care for them properly. Obviously, this would require wealth and (probably) high status.
I can only imagine that in such extreme cases (I have no idea of numbers here), the youngster would occupy a position of 'trainee wife', or similar.
The parents' duty is, as far as I know, to see his daughter happily and safely settled in an environment that meets with her approval.
The cases being referred to by our more blinkered posters and simply examples of child-rape, carried out by criminals with no blessing from any religion or law. In fact, it would be in total contravention to their rules.
This kind of activity is not confined to one area, culture or religion. I would logically guess that it takes place in Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian and uncle Tom Cobbley areas with, more or less, equal regularity.
I can only imagine that in such extreme cases (I have no idea of numbers here), the youngster would occupy a position of 'trainee wife', or similar.
The parents' duty is, as far as I know, to see his daughter happily and safely settled in an environment that meets with her approval.
The cases being referred to by our more blinkered posters and simply examples of child-rape, carried out by criminals with no blessing from any religion or law. In fact, it would be in total contravention to their rules.
This kind of activity is not confined to one area, culture or religion. I would logically guess that it takes place in Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian and uncle Tom Cobbley areas with, more or less, equal regularity.
If multiple wives is to be permitted within Islam why on earth should it be a crime for anyone in UK to commit adultery if he applies a similar rule,whether he is religious or atheist it shouldn't be an issue. Just because he has a religion does not mean he can be selective from others in a democratic legal system to the advantage or disadvantage of others ? If adultery is to be permitted for muslims all others should be able to claim that 'right'.
Surely, adultery is sex OUTSIDE of marriage?
Apart from that...what right-minded person wants four wives?
Apart from that...what right-minded person wants four wives?
How Gay Is Pakistan?
Interesting title for a TV documentary.
Interesting title for a TV documentary.
Whack all beleivers of any faith and show then what no god can do
what i mean rather than manipulate it. extreme and fanciful. but surely if reliance on an invisible character is eradicated, progress would develop
A Muslim could easily set up a similar thread to this, highlighting the evils of alcohol with reference to all the violence, rapes and deaths that it causes. Now, of course:
1. We're not trying to impose our culture on them (apart from our governments' repeated attempt to force democracy upon them, but that's another story), whereas there are certainly hardline elements of the Muslim community trying to do so to us.
2. Cutting down on Muslim immigration is probably a good idea because it seems to be causing quite a few problems.
3. It's reasonable to react to the media's portrayal of this migrant mess, the disproportionate focusing of attention on helpless women and children being a particularly nauseating case in point.
But, just in case it isn't blindingly obvious to everybody, threads like this, while bemoaning the bias of the mainstream media (which I accept exists), are far, far more biased than, for example, the BBC. You're just cherry-picking articles that show Muslims in the worst possible light and working yourselves up in to more and more of a lather. You lot need to get a sense of perspective imo.
1. We're not trying to impose our culture on them (apart from our governments' repeated attempt to force democracy upon them, but that's another story), whereas there are certainly hardline elements of the Muslim community trying to do so to us.
2. Cutting down on Muslim immigration is probably a good idea because it seems to be causing quite a few problems.
3. It's reasonable to react to the media's portrayal of this migrant mess, the disproportionate focusing of attention on helpless women and children being a particularly nauseating case in point.
But, just in case it isn't blindingly obvious to everybody, threads like this, while bemoaning the bias of the mainstream media (which I accept exists), are far, far more biased than, for example, the BBC. You're just cherry-picking articles that show Muslims in the worst possible light and working yourselves up in to more and more of a lather. You lot need to get a sense of perspective imo.
Unfortunately the reason why many Muslims feel this is all ok is because Muhammad married a young girl Aisha when she was 6 or 7, but waited until she was 9 until the marriage was consummated. He was 53 at the time.
aaahh thats why the weirdos dont like the west talking about the pervert oops prophet anyway i regard religion as a virus of the mind not the physical substance that is your brain but your thought process if something looks mad sounds mad and feels mad its because it is mad
it is a bit strange dukeofpuke that the BBC etc never mention it.
Or ask if that could posibly be an underlying issue with regards the grooming gangs that have been operating and why the Muslim community do not seem that bothered about such things.
Or ask if that could posibly be an underlying issue with regards the grooming gangs that have been operating and why the Muslim community do not seem that bothered about such things.
it was rife in our country as well with the landed gentry taking advantage of poor underage working class girls who worked on the estate
BUT THAT GOT SORTED OUT AND STOPPED
BUT THAT GOT SORTED OUT AND STOPPED
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-nine-month-pre...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/warning-as-young-girls-travel-here...
one thing they should do is stop inbreeding, more than half the muzziies in the world are inbred it goes upto a whopping 70% in Pakistan, and its roughly 55% here in the uk, no wonder they dress them up as darleks
It is not very nice to raise that issue, alleged, but it is unfortunately creating medical problems as you may well know.
That's possibly why they are seeking new blood lines. Where better to find them than Europe?
yup raping vunerable young white girls, you must feel so proud...
Why would I feel so proud? I have mentioned before that I am not Moslem. Do you find it difficult to adopt an objective point of view?
Just to help
Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'"
Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'"
Indira Nehru the former indian prime minister supported stitching young girls up to keep them pure
India one of the worst for child marriages (virtually legal rape) but naydam thinks it really doesn't happen much at all.
meanwhile
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty
Hmmm. I've just been having a quick look for the age of Mary when she married Joseph. It would appear that she was 12yrs old and Joseph was 90! Not just the Mussies, then! 
I think if you spend your time looking at history or the Third World for distasteful activity, you will surely find it.
As to whether or not you can convince these people to change their customs to your Western ideals is debatable, even if they are applicable.
I saw a programme about FGM on Tele a couple of nights ago. I turned it off. It was horrendous! But curiosity compelled me to return. There are different 'operations', but none of them is designed as a punishment. In fact, the mothers and friends 'helping' to keep the child still have been done, themselves! It is something that simply must be done.
Seems like a strange treat for your tenth birthday, or whatever.
I think if you spend your time looking at history or the Third World for distasteful activity, you will surely find it.
As to whether or not you can convince these people to change their customs to your Western ideals is debatable, even if they are applicable.
I saw a programme about FGM on Tele a couple of nights ago. I turned it off. It was horrendous! But curiosity compelled me to return. There are different 'operations', but none of them is designed as a punishment. In fact, the mothers and friends 'helping' to keep the child still have been done, themselves! It is something that simply must be done.
Seems like a strange treat for your tenth birthday, or whatever.
Naydam, the Jesus nativity story is a myth invented by the early Roman church.The abuse Mobo is referring to is happening today and every day.
"Hmmm. I've just been having a quick look for the age of Mary when she married Joseph"
This guy "NAYDUM" lives in a fantasy world ...
The abuse Mobo is referring to is happening today and every day - got it yet NAYDUM ?
Or is it a case of ...none so blind they cannot see ?
I suggest you have a nice long holiday in a few Muslim run Countries...how does Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Iran, Saudi sound to you eh ?
This guy "NAYDUM" lives in a fantasy world ...
The abuse Mobo is referring to is happening today and every day - got it yet NAYDUM ?
Or is it a case of ...none so blind they cannot see ?
I suggest you have a nice long holiday in a few Muslim run Countries...how does Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Iran, Saudi sound to you eh ?
A myth? Do you have proof of this? It didn't say that it wasn't true in the bit I was reading! A lot of Roman Catholics are going to be surprised.
Rockingron. And as naydam suggests, Mobo should spend his time in actually doing something about converting the traditional beliefs of these tribal people, rather than frothing at the mouth, pointing to contradictory links.
Take, for example, the programme that I was referring to: Female Genital Mutilation on the African continent. In spite of the horrendous ordeal that it obviously is, the girl who is today's victim will be assisting in the 'cutting' of her own daughter when the time arrives. She will do it with the child's best interest at heart, and the child will grow up to do the same. It is done for the child's benefit. It is the way it has always been...and always will be.
Instead of picking on ME about all this crap why don't any of you DO something about it? I KNOW it goes on all over the world and I am not going to do anything about it. Okay?
So, what's YOUR excuse? What are any of you knights in shining armour going to do? Absolutely bugger all!
I quite like 'Naydum'. It has a certain ring to it. I wonder if its easy to change?
No holidays for me in Muslim countries. Can't seem to get on with 'em.
Rockingron. And as naydam suggests, Mobo should spend his time in actually doing something about converting the traditional beliefs of these tribal people, rather than frothing at the mouth, pointing to contradictory links.
Take, for example, the programme that I was referring to: Female Genital Mutilation on the African continent. In spite of the horrendous ordeal that it obviously is, the girl who is today's victim will be assisting in the 'cutting' of her own daughter when the time arrives. She will do it with the child's best interest at heart, and the child will grow up to do the same. It is done for the child's benefit. It is the way it has always been...and always will be.
Instead of picking on ME about all this crap why don't any of you DO something about it? I KNOW it goes on all over the world and I am not going to do anything about it. Okay?
So, what's YOUR excuse? What are any of you knights in shining armour going to do? Absolutely bugger all!
I quite like 'Naydum'. It has a certain ring to it. I wonder if its easy to change?
No holidays for me in Muslim countries. Can't seem to get on with 'em.
According to the story, Joseph and Mary were going to Bethlehem for a Roman census. There is no record of a census at that time. When they conducted a census the Romans did not require citizens to move from their place of residence. The story is false.
There are other reasons to doubt the story but can't be bothered to go through them all.
Do you believe the story naydam?
There are other reasons to doubt the story but can't be bothered to go through them all.
Do you believe the story naydam?
If he believes "She will do it with the child's best interest at heart, and the child will grow up to do the same".
I'm sure he does..
I'm sure he does..
G2D. Well, the mother believes she's doing it with the girl's best interest in mind. She is, after all, her mother! The cutting is done for several reasons. All of which make perfectly good sense to the women carrying out the ordeal.
You seem to forget that these people are illiterate. They have little power of reason and so, they do what they have always done.
The mother wouldn't help if she didn't think it was for her daughter's benefit. Apparently, in the sub-Saharan area (where this programme was shot), about 90% of women have been cut. I apologise if I am misquoting that figure. It is not intentional.
You seem to forget that these people are illiterate. They have little power of reason and so, they do what they have always done.
The mother wouldn't help if she didn't think it was for her daughter's benefit. Apparently, in the sub-Saharan area (where this programme was shot), about 90% of women have been cut. I apologise if I am misquoting that figure. It is not intentional.
Naydam: you seem to forget that this isn't just a middle east problem. This barbaric nonsense goes on right under yours and mine noses. And it's carried out by literate and supposedly 'westernised' medical staff.
You think they advertise in the local rag? Think of unauthorised abortions and you will get my drift...
Female genital mutilation (sometimes referred to as female circumcision) refers to procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons. The practice is illegal in the UK.
It has been estimated that over 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation (FGM) in the UK each year, and that 66,000 women in the UK are living with the consequences of FGM. However, the true extent is unknown, due to the "hidden" nature of the crime.
If ye think all these acts are carried out by 'family members' then think again.
It has been estimated that over 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation (FGM) in the UK each year, and that 66,000 women in the UK are living with the consequences of FGM. However, the true extent is unknown, due to the "hidden" nature of the crime.
If ye think all these acts are carried out by 'family members' then think again.
How come we've suddenly become all UK? We aren't discussing the UK. It was places like Yemen, Afghanistan, Sub-Saharan Africa etc. You know...places where it goes on. Where the mother and friends hold the girl still so that the old wizened one, with trembling hands and bad eyesight, can unwrap her razor blade and carry out the cutting. THERE it is done with the best of intentions by people who know no better.
If it occurs in this country the girl has only to show the evidence of such an assault and people would be sent to jail. But, of course, old customs die hard in some cases.
If it occurs in this country the girl has only to show the evidence of such an assault and people would be sent to jail. But, of course, old customs die hard in some cases.
You know...places where it goes on.
Like the UK. Something you still seem to have a problem understanding. Mind you, as you said earlier, "They're all illiterate" you obviously think that if they are literate (like in the UK) that it's quite acceptable?
Like the UK. Something you still seem to have a problem understanding. Mind you, as you said earlier, "They're all illiterate" you obviously think that if they are literate (like in the UK) that it's quite acceptable?
Its amazing what one can extract from a statement if you twist it enough. 
Naysayer. You just don't want to accept it is going on and trying to play it down to defend your favourite religion.
who was it said about men would do evil while others stood idly by or something like that - you are one of them trying to pour oil on troubled waters. It's sickening.
who was it said about men would do evil while others stood idly by or something like that - you are one of them trying to pour oil on troubled waters. It's sickening.
ps it is the law in the yemen and they tried to reduce the age to 9 in Iraq but it ended when the leader left office but the party wanted it REDUCED!!! that is how these nasty types view women as chattels as just pieces of meat and naysayer wants to defend it all by attempting to muddy the waters with obfuscation and divertion
Naysayer unable to respond - but then I don't expect anything else from him.
Mobo. I don't understand "It is the law in Yemen". WHAT is the law in Yemen? What did some people want to get reduced in Iraq? Do you mean the age of consent?
I DO accept that 'its going on'. I would much prefer that it wasn't. BUT, I am not prepared to go to any great lengths to sort it out.
"Men do evil while others stand idly by". Sounds like a version of "Men do evil while others wring their hands and point out the evil to all and sundry". Very much like standing 'idly by', I suppose.
A blind man on a galloping horse would never know the difference!
I DO accept that 'its going on'. I would much prefer that it wasn't. BUT, I am not prepared to go to any great lengths to sort it out.
"Men do evil while others stand idly by". Sounds like a version of "Men do evil while others wring their hands and point out the evil to all and sundry". Very much like standing 'idly by', I suppose.
A blind man on a galloping horse would never know the difference!
what is fgm?
Female genital mutilation (FGM) is a horrific act, agreed by all the major global humanitarian and legal organisations, and by many nations, to be a gross violation of human rights. But still it continues, perpetrated often on small girls and young women under barbaric conditions. What follows is an attempt to describe and ‘explain’ this act. Possible consequences for those who have it are also listed.
FGM may be an early marker of belonging to a particular group, perhaps carried out when the child is only a few days or weeks old. (Similarly, ex-pat groups may adopt it as a way of indicating difference from their host community.)
In some communities FGM is seen as a rite of passage, an initiation to adulthood, occurring as the girl approaches puberty and ‘becomes a woman’.
FGM is sometimes required to ‘preserve’ family ‘honour’.
It may be done in order to ‘cleanse’ a girl, in the belief that it is more hygienic and will stop unpleasant genital secretions and odours as the child develops to maturity.
FGM may be deemed a beautifying procedure, to remove ‘masculine’ aspects of a girl’s or woman’s body.
Some communities believe men’s sexual pleasure will be enhanced by FGM.
Excision of the clitoris may be believed to ensure women will not be like men in regard to sexual appetite or aggression.
Fear of the clitoris may be a factor, with the belief that it must be excised because otherwise it will grow into a ‘third leg’ (c.f. a penis, only perhaps longer), and / or will cause the girl discomfort when she becomes a woman.
Fear of the clitoris, and its consequent excision, is also a rationale in communities which believe a man – or baby – will die if they come into contact with it during intercourse or birth.
Excision of the clitoris is believed to reduce a woman’s sexual pleasure or desire, thus reducing the likelihood that she will become sexually active with anyone other than her husband.
And, often in addition to any or all of these convictions, FGM is a way to ensure that a girl or woman is ‘pure’; she may be sewn up almost completely as she approaches puberty, when she reaches marriageable age, or even after each birth, so that sexual intimacy is almost impossible unless on her husband’s say-so.
Types of female genital mutilation
Type I:
~ partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
Subgroups:
type Ia – removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only;
type Ib – removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.
Type II:
~ partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
Subgroups:
type IIa – removal of the labia minora only;
type IIb – partial or total removal of the clitoris and labia minora;
type IIc – partial or total removal of the clitoris, labia minora and labia majora.
Type III:
~ narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
Subgroups:
type IIIa – removal and apposition of the labia minora;
type IIIb – removal and apposition of the labia majora.
Reinfibulation is covered under this definition. This is a procedure to recreate an infibulation, for example after childbirth when defibulation is necessary.
Type IV:
~ unclassified – all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for nonmedical
purposes, for example, pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization
Female genital mutilation (FGM) is a horrific act, agreed by all the major global humanitarian and legal organisations, and by many nations, to be a gross violation of human rights. But still it continues, perpetrated often on small girls and young women under barbaric conditions. What follows is an attempt to describe and ‘explain’ this act. Possible consequences for those who have it are also listed.
FGM may be an early marker of belonging to a particular group, perhaps carried out when the child is only a few days or weeks old. (Similarly, ex-pat groups may adopt it as a way of indicating difference from their host community.)
In some communities FGM is seen as a rite of passage, an initiation to adulthood, occurring as the girl approaches puberty and ‘becomes a woman’.
FGM is sometimes required to ‘preserve’ family ‘honour’.
It may be done in order to ‘cleanse’ a girl, in the belief that it is more hygienic and will stop unpleasant genital secretions and odours as the child develops to maturity.
FGM may be deemed a beautifying procedure, to remove ‘masculine’ aspects of a girl’s or woman’s body.
Some communities believe men’s sexual pleasure will be enhanced by FGM.
Excision of the clitoris may be believed to ensure women will not be like men in regard to sexual appetite or aggression.
Fear of the clitoris may be a factor, with the belief that it must be excised because otherwise it will grow into a ‘third leg’ (c.f. a penis, only perhaps longer), and / or will cause the girl discomfort when she becomes a woman.
Fear of the clitoris, and its consequent excision, is also a rationale in communities which believe a man – or baby – will die if they come into contact with it during intercourse or birth.
Excision of the clitoris is believed to reduce a woman’s sexual pleasure or desire, thus reducing the likelihood that she will become sexually active with anyone other than her husband.
And, often in addition to any or all of these convictions, FGM is a way to ensure that a girl or woman is ‘pure’; she may be sewn up almost completely as she approaches puberty, when she reaches marriageable age, or even after each birth, so that sexual intimacy is almost impossible unless on her husband’s say-so.
Types of female genital mutilation
Type I:
~ partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
Subgroups:
type Ia – removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only;
type Ib – removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.
Type II:
~ partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
Subgroups:
type IIa – removal of the labia minora only;
type IIb – partial or total removal of the clitoris and labia minora;
type IIc – partial or total removal of the clitoris, labia minora and labia majora.
Type III:
~ narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
Subgroups:
type IIIa – removal and apposition of the labia minora;
type IIIb – removal and apposition of the labia majora.
Reinfibulation is covered under this definition. This is a procedure to recreate an infibulation, for example after childbirth when defibulation is necessary.
Type IV:
~ unclassified – all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for nonmedical
purposes, for example, pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization
What health and well-being impacts does FGM have?
Impacts of FGM on physical health: immediate (up to 10 days)
Severe pain
Haemorrhage
Shock (sometimes death)
Infection of the wound
Acute urinary retention (with pain and burning)
Urinary track infection
Abscesses and ulcers
Fever
Septicaemia
Tetanus
Gangrene
Impacts of FGM on physical health: medium and longer-term (after 10 days)
Delay in wound healing due to infection, malnutrition and anaemia
Anaemia (and failure to thrive if malnourished child)
Chronic pelvic infection
Fibrosis (scarring at site of cutting)
Cheloids (abnormal growth of scar tissue)
Synechia (abnormal fusion of labia)
Tissue rotation (abnormal scarring and retraction of anatomical zones)
Chronic back and pelvic pain
Urinary problems / incontinence / kidney failure
Bladder calculus / stone formation
Hypersensitivity of entire genital area, including neuroma on the dorsal nerve of the clitoris
Dysmenorrhoea / menstrual problems
Haematocolpos (accumulation internally of menstrual blood)
Pain at sexual intercourse
Recto/vaginal fistulae (?and subsequent ostracization by the community)
Unwillingness to seek general medical advice, in case FGM becomes evident
Hepatitis and other infections (because of poorly healed wounds)
Impacts of FGM on sexual health
Dysparenuia / discomfort / spasm / pain during intercourse
Anxiety resulting in vaginal dryness
Less sexual satisfaction / difficult to reach orgasm
Less (reported) sexual desire / lack of arousal
Shame or embarrassment about intimacy
Greater risk of HIV (because of cuts which bleed)
Medical checks (e.g. smear tests) difficult, and may be avoided, so early prognoses of ill-health are missed
Morbidity due to anal intercourse, where vaginal access is difficult
Infertility
Impacts of FGM on psychological health (girls & women – specifics may depend on age)
Psychological vulnerability
Anger
Fear
Anxiety
Depression
Confusion
Lack of trust
Post-traumatic stress disorder
Psychosexual problems
Hyper-arousal
Hyper-vigilance
Psychological disturbance
Behavioural problems
Relationship difficulties or disorders
Emotional distance
Sense of helplessness
Somatization
Phobia
Sleep disorders
Low self-esteem and / or sense of self-entitlement
Social isolation / dependent on group disconnected from the mainstream
Flashbacks
Cognitive dissonance (where norms of FGM are not shared)
Impacts of FGM obstetrically: maternal
Difficulties in performing good pelvic examination during labour (resulting in inadequate management of delivery)
Prolongation of second stage of labour
Tearing and recourse to episiotomy
Caesarian section (sometimes unnecessary because obstetrician unprepared)
Perineal lacerations
Torn uterus
Post-partum haemorrhage
Perineal wound infections
Post-partum sepsis
Repeated pregnancies because of infant mortality (presumably?)
Impacts of FGM obstetrically: paediatric
Stillbirth
Need for resuscitation
Neonatal distress and / or mortality
Failure to thrive
Cerebral palsy / brain damage
Death or serious incapacity of mother, so high risk also to child
Impacts of FGM on physical health: immediate (up to 10 days)
Severe pain
Haemorrhage
Shock (sometimes death)
Infection of the wound
Acute urinary retention (with pain and burning)
Urinary track infection
Abscesses and ulcers
Fever
Septicaemia
Tetanus
Gangrene
Impacts of FGM on physical health: medium and longer-term (after 10 days)
Delay in wound healing due to infection, malnutrition and anaemia
Anaemia (and failure to thrive if malnourished child)
Chronic pelvic infection
Fibrosis (scarring at site of cutting)
Cheloids (abnormal growth of scar tissue)
Synechia (abnormal fusion of labia)
Tissue rotation (abnormal scarring and retraction of anatomical zones)
Chronic back and pelvic pain
Urinary problems / incontinence / kidney failure
Bladder calculus / stone formation
Hypersensitivity of entire genital area, including neuroma on the dorsal nerve of the clitoris
Dysmenorrhoea / menstrual problems
Haematocolpos (accumulation internally of menstrual blood)
Pain at sexual intercourse
Recto/vaginal fistulae (?and subsequent ostracization by the community)
Unwillingness to seek general medical advice, in case FGM becomes evident
Hepatitis and other infections (because of poorly healed wounds)
Impacts of FGM on sexual health
Dysparenuia / discomfort / spasm / pain during intercourse
Anxiety resulting in vaginal dryness
Less sexual satisfaction / difficult to reach orgasm
Less (reported) sexual desire / lack of arousal
Shame or embarrassment about intimacy
Greater risk of HIV (because of cuts which bleed)
Medical checks (e.g. smear tests) difficult, and may be avoided, so early prognoses of ill-health are missed
Morbidity due to anal intercourse, where vaginal access is difficult
Infertility
Impacts of FGM on psychological health (girls & women – specifics may depend on age)
Psychological vulnerability
Anger
Fear
Anxiety
Depression
Confusion
Lack of trust
Post-traumatic stress disorder
Psychosexual problems
Hyper-arousal
Hyper-vigilance
Psychological disturbance
Behavioural problems
Relationship difficulties or disorders
Emotional distance
Sense of helplessness
Somatization
Phobia
Sleep disorders
Low self-esteem and / or sense of self-entitlement
Social isolation / dependent on group disconnected from the mainstream
Flashbacks
Cognitive dissonance (where norms of FGM are not shared)
Impacts of FGM obstetrically: maternal
Difficulties in performing good pelvic examination during labour (resulting in inadequate management of delivery)
Prolongation of second stage of labour
Tearing and recourse to episiotomy
Caesarian section (sometimes unnecessary because obstetrician unprepared)
Perineal lacerations
Torn uterus
Post-partum haemorrhage
Perineal wound infections
Post-partum sepsis
Repeated pregnancies because of infant mortality (presumably?)
Impacts of FGM obstetrically: paediatric
Stillbirth
Need for resuscitation
Neonatal distress and / or mortality
Failure to thrive
Cerebral palsy / brain damage
Death or serious incapacity of mother, so high risk also to child
Alleged22. You can't write stuff like that on here! Mobo will accuse you of being a pervert!
I saw a programme on it the other night...FDGM, Sub-Saharan Africa. It was absolutely toe-curling!!
I saw a programme on it the other night...FDGM, Sub-Saharan Africa. It was absolutely toe-curling!!
its vile and all it basically boils down to is, so the woman doesn't have any feelings during sex, so receives no enjoyment.
naysayer will pretend it isn't going on - well only a few uneducated illiterate do it - what a sneering snob he is. I bet these uneducated tribesman would last a lot longer in the desert than naysayer would educated or not!!!
So, do you acknowledge that they might know best what works in THEIR world, and what doesn't?
A Birmingham hospital has dealt with 1,500 cases of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) in just five years.
The shocking statistic was discussed this week at a meeting of the West Midlands Police and Crime Panel.
Members were told that cases of the sickening practice peaked at Birmingham’s Heartlands Hospital in 2013 with 349 recorded victims - nearly 20 per cent more than the previous year.
It means around six victims are dealt with at the Bordesley Green-based hospital every single week, showing the true scale of the hidden crime.
FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1984, and since 2003 anyone taking a child out of the UK for the barbaric practice faces 14 years in prison.
Despite the rise in hospital cases and an increase in reports to police in 2014 there has not been a single conviction in the UK.
The Heartlands figures were cited to the panel by Home Office expert Stephen Rimmer, in his report about preventing violence in vulnerable people in the West Midlands.
The hospital told the Mail that it deals with an average of six cases every single week and added that all of the victims had been mutilated abroad during childhood.
The panel was told by the Muslim Women’s Network that the current support and counselling for victims was simply not good enough.
It added that many of the survivors suffer weekly flashbacks.
The charity said the latest case it uncovered was just last week and involved a young Yemeni girl from an unnamed Birmingham school.
The Digbeth-based charity said it was regularly contacted by people in the West Midlands who were victims of FGM. It now runs a number of awareness raising workshops with girls inside Birmingham schools, but added that it had particularly struggled to engage with the Yemeni community.
Shaista Gohir MBE, who is chair of the charity, told the panel: “We need to get funding for specific counselling in this area.
“There is a significant population in this region where FGM is practiced.”
Detective Superintendent Tim Bacon, the force lead for safeguarding children, told the meeting that a police campaign was launched last July to raise awareness about FGM.
He added that there had been 118 reports of suspected cases in 2014 and that every single officer in the force had received training around FGM.
Despite a lack of convictions he confirmed to the panel that police emergency protection orders had been issued in some of the cases to protect children.
The shocking statistic was discussed this week at a meeting of the West Midlands Police and Crime Panel.
Members were told that cases of the sickening practice peaked at Birmingham’s Heartlands Hospital in 2013 with 349 recorded victims - nearly 20 per cent more than the previous year.
It means around six victims are dealt with at the Bordesley Green-based hospital every single week, showing the true scale of the hidden crime.
FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1984, and since 2003 anyone taking a child out of the UK for the barbaric practice faces 14 years in prison.
Despite the rise in hospital cases and an increase in reports to police in 2014 there has not been a single conviction in the UK.
The Heartlands figures were cited to the panel by Home Office expert Stephen Rimmer, in his report about preventing violence in vulnerable people in the West Midlands.
The hospital told the Mail that it deals with an average of six cases every single week and added that all of the victims had been mutilated abroad during childhood.
The panel was told by the Muslim Women’s Network that the current support and counselling for victims was simply not good enough.
It added that many of the survivors suffer weekly flashbacks.
The charity said the latest case it uncovered was just last week and involved a young Yemeni girl from an unnamed Birmingham school.
The Digbeth-based charity said it was regularly contacted by people in the West Midlands who were victims of FGM. It now runs a number of awareness raising workshops with girls inside Birmingham schools, but added that it had particularly struggled to engage with the Yemeni community.
Shaista Gohir MBE, who is chair of the charity, told the panel: “We need to get funding for specific counselling in this area.
“There is a significant population in this region where FGM is practiced.”
Detective Superintendent Tim Bacon, the force lead for safeguarding children, told the meeting that a police campaign was launched last July to raise awareness about FGM.
He added that there had been 118 reports of suspected cases in 2014 and that every single officer in the force had received training around FGM.
Despite a lack of convictions he confirmed to the panel that police emergency protection orders had been issued in some of the cases to protect children.
You have made it all up alleged I know you have!!!!!!!!!!!
More than 1,000 women and girls have been treated by the NHS in England for female genital mutilation in three months this year, according to figures that reveal the extent of the practice in the UK.
Between April and June, there were 1,026 newly recorded cases of FGM in England, latest figures from the Health and Social Care Information Centre show. Among the cases, there were nine girls under the age of 18.
Since the HSCIC started to record FGM data in September 2014, there have been 4,989 cases reported nationally. In the most recent tranche of data, 60 NHS trusts out of a total of 160 submitted data for one or more FGM attendances.
There is likely to be a spike in the number in the next recording period after recording FGM attendance became mandatory for acute trusts on 1 June 2015, and becomes mandatory for GP practices and mental health trusts from 1 October. Only one GP provided data for April to June.
The HSCIC found that, in 75% of newly recorded cases, women and girls themselves reported that they had suffered FGM, rather than it being reported by someone else. Among those who went to the NHS, 43 had undergone deinfibulation, or “reversal”, where the vagina is reopened after a large part of it has been sewn shut, in the most extreme form of mutilation.
Tackling FGM has risen up the political agenda since last year, after high-profile campaigns and international gatherings attracted public support. A Guardian petition saw the Department for Education write to schools about the dangers of FGM, while steps have been taken by the Department of Health and the Home Office to ensure cases are recorded and victims receive more support.
The new figures exposed the shocking extent of FGM in the UK, said Tanya Barron, CEO of global children’s charity Plan UK, which campaigns against FGM.
“We’ve seen hugely increased attention on this problem in the past few years and we are now waking up to the scale of this terrible practice,” she said.
“What we must always keep in mind, though, is that this is not specifically a British problem. FGM is a practice with an inherently global dimension. And while it’s vital that we do everything we can to stop FGM here in the UK, as well as to support the girls and women affected by it, the reality is that this practice won’t end in the UK until it is ended worldwide.”
Between April and June, there were 1,026 newly recorded cases of FGM in England, latest figures from the Health and Social Care Information Centre show. Among the cases, there were nine girls under the age of 18.
Since the HSCIC started to record FGM data in September 2014, there have been 4,989 cases reported nationally. In the most recent tranche of data, 60 NHS trusts out of a total of 160 submitted data for one or more FGM attendances.
There is likely to be a spike in the number in the next recording period after recording FGM attendance became mandatory for acute trusts on 1 June 2015, and becomes mandatory for GP practices and mental health trusts from 1 October. Only one GP provided data for April to June.
The HSCIC found that, in 75% of newly recorded cases, women and girls themselves reported that they had suffered FGM, rather than it being reported by someone else. Among those who went to the NHS, 43 had undergone deinfibulation, or “reversal”, where the vagina is reopened after a large part of it has been sewn shut, in the most extreme form of mutilation.
Tackling FGM has risen up the political agenda since last year, after high-profile campaigns and international gatherings attracted public support. A Guardian petition saw the Department for Education write to schools about the dangers of FGM, while steps have been taken by the Department of Health and the Home Office to ensure cases are recorded and victims receive more support.
The new figures exposed the shocking extent of FGM in the UK, said Tanya Barron, CEO of global children’s charity Plan UK, which campaigns against FGM.
“We’ve seen hugely increased attention on this problem in the past few years and we are now waking up to the scale of this terrible practice,” she said.
“What we must always keep in mind, though, is that this is not specifically a British problem. FGM is a practice with an inherently global dimension. And while it’s vital that we do everything we can to stop FGM here in the UK, as well as to support the girls and women affected by it, the reality is that this practice won’t end in the UK until it is ended worldwide.”
"Only a few", Mobo? I stated that 90% of women in that area had been cut. Call that a few if you wish. I don't.
ps. You got the name wrong...again! Wakey wakey.
ps. You got the name wrong...again! Wakey wakey.
these figures are going to rise and rise as more and more economic migrants arrive.
naysayer you always try to play down the kiddy fiddling why do you do it.
dont mention immigration you will be called an islamaphobe or a racist or both haha
"Anyway, i thought betting was against the rules of being muslim"
It is ...I was in Dubai - thought I'd just login to Betfair and check my account ...went to login and a big HAIRY DEVIL appeared on the screen telling me the site is "banned" in Dubai.
Also...I was in the BA club lounge at Heathrow - thought I'd just login to Betfair and check my account...sorry you can't view this website here it might offend some of our passengers..
What phukin twats (BA).
It is ...I was in Dubai - thought I'd just login to Betfair and check my account ...went to login and a big HAIRY DEVIL appeared on the screen telling me the site is "banned" in Dubai.
Also...I was in the BA club lounge at Heathrow - thought I'd just login to Betfair and check my account...sorry you can't view this website here it might offend some of our passengers..
What phukin twats (BA).
Despite being against the law, this girl was married with her family's permission, at 13 she was a child bride and forced into it -
this is in muslim Mauritania.
this is in muslim Mauritania.
I do not approve of this myself..because of age, that is all
I believe women should marry men, but they must have choice
I believe women should marry men, but they must have choice
she has actually been trying to do that
at the last meet the judge(?) never turned up
I wish you took notice of what was said etc
at the last meet the judge(?) never turned up
I wish you took notice of what was said etc
all part of the muslim attacks on women
have you seen the list of women's rights deaths in the guardian
your favourite people are at the head of the list of supression
have you seen the list of women's rights deaths in the guardian
your favourite people are at the head of the list of supression
why are muslim men so afraid of women?? They can't even shake hands with them in many circumstances ha ha fkn ha ha and as for riding bicycles - don't start me off
are you aware of the number of muslim countries who have not signed off on the UN women rights declaration
I agree with them there Mobo
I am against fgm of course
But I see a problem here, you see women's role is to be wives and mothers
Neither do you recognise how much women have harmed Western society..because they are not the same as men
I am against fgm of course
But I see a problem here, you see women's role is to be wives and mothers
Neither do you recognise how much women have harmed Western society..because they are not the same as men
wtf where have i said i see women's roles as wives and mothers
that's what your lot want
women do what they like - quite happy with that
you backward people are shockers
the damage the muslim world has been and still does even in this country is shocking
that's what your lot want
women do what they like - quite happy with that
you backward people are shockers
the damage the muslim world has been and still does even in this country is shocking
As a socialist I believe women are entitled to be treated fairly and have as many of their aspirations met as possible
But I do not believe they should ever be given power over men, a few exceptions to the rule do not change this
We are making a terrible mistake here
I don't tell women what to do.....but have you ever observed or listened to women properly, most of their is about husbands and babies
We listen to the wrong women that is our problem
But I do not believe they should ever be given power over men, a few exceptions to the rule do not change this
We are making a terrible mistake here
I don't tell women what to do.....but have you ever observed or listened to women properly, most of their is about husbands and babies
We listen to the wrong women that is our problem
The vast majority of women are happiest as wives and mothers
Women do have one power over men it is called sex, they are the sole supplier
Muslims know this, so they bag their women up, that is why, reduces the power of sex, so men can continue to rule in peace
Do you not see this????
Of course I don't agree with forced marriage or fgm, but that is not common in all Muslim societies is it
but even I accept those two must go
Muslims know this, so they bag their women up, that is why, reduces the power of sex, so men can continue to rule in peace
Do you not see this????
Of course I don't agree with forced marriage or fgm, but that is not common in all Muslim societies is it
but even I
accept those two must go
Saddam did not bag women up, quite progressive, seems a pity we removed him
We also left a lot of Muslim women with kids to bring up and no husband, since we killed them, do you think they thanked us for that?
Of course some Muslim women would like a Western lifestyle, but is this the majority of Muslim women I wonder?
We also left a lot of Muslim women with kids to bring up and no husband, since we killed them, do you think they thanked us for that?
Of course some Muslim women would like a Western lifestyle, but is this the majority of Muslim women I wonder?
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