actual jet crash shoreham

The people in the incident were not at an air show there were driving along a road nearby.

Seven confirmed deaths; Not clear whether this includes the pilot.  Very sad.

not 'sad' tho' is it - theres no such thing as 'sad', given a little consideration.  Just a bad fact.  'Sad' is just so mawkish. I'm sad if my puppy dies - I'm not sad about people obliterated by fire and high-speed metal - I'm disgusted.

With all the health and safety rules that exist in this country, it's staggering that such "shows" are allowed to go on in the knowledge that any pilot error will lead to fatalities of innocent bystanders.

more interestingly,  a Hawker Hunter looks like a plane most unsuited to loop-the-looping.

An appalling tragedy. A mate of mine just phoned to say he'd driven past Lancing College just hours before, with wifey and 2 children..

The margins are so fine. Living is dangerous...

more interestingly,  a Hawker Hunter looks like a plane most unsuited to loop-the-looping.


Been used by the 'black arrows' so it must be loop the loop kosha.

Some weirdos on this thread

People die in car crashes all the time. Are you suggesting no one drives or flys and we all just sit at home eating porridge, drinking water and popping anti depressants?

I'm suggesting we don't have dangerous manouvres by planes when in close contact with crowds.

Health and safety gone mad but my own footy club are allowed 666 on our terracing despite have crowds of 35,000 before.

Sharp cookie that desperatemunter. An expert on the etymology of sorrow AND the capabilities of post ww2 warplanes.  My how we are blessed on here.

Seeing a plane crash at an air show is a bonus attraction for many.

it must be fate when you wait 2 hours to go 5 miles and you end up dead

"more interestingly,  a Hawker Hunter looks like a plane most unsuited to loop-the-looping."
It's a famous fighter plane that was used by the RAF display teams?!

It almost looks like the guy looped too low, maybe had his altimeter set wrong or something.

Zazu how is a car crash a comparison to a stunt performed to entertain and ending up killing innocent people.

These things are tightly regulated after previous disasters so for example he wouldn't be looping over the crowd, there are imaginary lines they aren't supposed to cross, and the display will be pre approved I'm sure. He landed on the road thogh didn't he, you can't really plan for that.

Four of my friends driving to Brighton for the football went through that junction at approx 1.15pm. Fine margins indeed. Seems odd that the pilot would attempt such a delicate manoeuvre in a flight path that mirrored the line of the road? You'd think somebody might have thought of that one...

Just Checking 22 Aug 15 19:48
These things are tightly regulated after previous disasters so for example he wouldn't be looping over the crowd, there are imaginary lines they aren't supposed to cross, and the display will be pre approved I'm sure. He landed on the road thogh didn't he, you can't really plan for that

tbf if I was driving along that road at the time, as I have done many times, and some pillock tried doing a loop the loop over the top of me I would be seriously pissed off with them even if they managed to complete it safely.

The paying crowd appear to have been kept safe at the expense of members of the public who were innocently going about their business.

Whilst I have sympathy for the pilot's family I hope the organisers get jailed and bankrupted for this abomination and I sincerely hope they are insured for many millions.

This was an entirely foreseeable catastrophe.

Well I agree, it does seem a bad place to do it, but I don't know the area, is it all built up so there isn't actually any space to do it anywhere that's 100% safe?

^ not according to zazu

It's at a place called Shoreham-on-Sea!

sea is about 500 metres away but probably too far away for the thrillseekers

the other side of the airport is totally populated so if you are going to do stunts it was the "safer" side

Probably used the road as a line, but shirley it should had been done over the runway.

And it did like he was only a few feet from perfecting the loop.

Airshows I've been to are always
runway
------
crowd
and the planes area always the other side of the runway, they never come this side of the line.
They tend to do things on a line with the runway but if they need to circle, it's away from you.
As IS says, I'd have expected something like that to be along the line with the runway.
Unless he got completely disorientated and thought the road WAS the runway...

Maybe he blacked out momentarily, I'll guess we'll never know unless he survived.

Should you be doing loops in a 60+ year old jet? One of the witnesses said it broke in two, don't know how reliable that is. But it's an old plane. I know the Lancaster the BB Flight fly is not even allowed to be banked beyond a certain gentle angle. It's seems a bit reckless to be looping fast old jets anywhere near people and main roads.

Some are saying the pilot survived, it'd be a miracle if he was still in the plane when it hit the ground and he's alive

...maybe the plane stalled at the top of the climb....

..or the pilot blacked out....had a heart attack...stroke....

I think you would break in 2 if you hit the road at 200mph+

The photos I've seen the plane is completely intact just before it hits, he's just too low with too much downward velocity even though plane is actually nose up. You can eject at 0ft and survive, maybe he did that?

"..or the pilot blacked out...."

Little trivia: The German Stuka had a button the pilot would push to start an automatic procedure to pull the plane up out of the dive, so if the pilot blacked out he'd be fine, hands free. Tell that to the birds down the pub, they love facts like that

Doing airshows in area's like this is asking for trouble. It has happened a fair few times. They really need to stop this. Once the plane is in trouble in an area like this there is a good chance live's will be lost.

when was the last one that killed the public in the uk anfeild ?

Saw a still showing the front part of the plane still intact as it scythed through the junction having bottomed out, ended up in undergrowth apparently so seems possible that the pilot might have survived.

He's in critical condition - miraculously.

he's probably better off dead.  Badly burned, facing possible manslaughter charges and living with unimagineable guilt.

So..Ex servicemen are still allowed to fly 60 year old rust buckets in the sky above the general public, but Im not allowed to smoke in bars.... because that could put other people's health at risk.

Not a very fair comparison that.  One event occurred 1 million times a day, the other perhaps once a day.

Aug 22, 2015 -- 8:56PM, Ibrahima Sonko wrote:

when was the last one that killed the public in the uk anfeild ?

1950s.

So it seems he stayed with the plane to the end trying to save the situation. That takes some courage as (presuming it was working) the ejector seat would have saved him. I reckon he'd have been certain that he was going to be killed if the plane hit with him in it, so to stay where he was when he had an out seems like bravery to me. Do people ever survive fighter-type jet crashes where they have been in the plane at impact?

Pilot survived

That's one view FM, but certainly not one I share.  Best case is he lost complete control of the plane.  If he had control, he flew the plane into the road, avoiding the trees to give him a better chance of pulling the plane out of the nosedive.

Best to wait till the facts are established. They usually are in plane crashes.

I doubt the pilot's family think he's better off dead, a tragic accident.

cant have that clyde, pilots would avoid damage and he could of ejected (if he can)

He thought he could still make it, seeing the images he was mightily close to doing so.

The video shows the jet was nose up, I don't think he lost control - misjudged the amount of space he needed perhaps. I'm not excusing him (or judging him). But how many people, when they know all they have to do is pull a lever and they go on living, will stay with it, not many I'd say.

Still I mentioned earlier is part way down on this page...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/22/hawker-hunter-plane-crash-shoreham-air-show-reports

My guess is he blacked out for a couple of seconds. I've watched the video again and he has plenty of altitude to complete the loop if he pulls back - but for a length of time coming down he just isn't really rotating its just dropping. I find it harder to believe it's a technical fault as it does then pull up all of a sudden (like he came round).
Blacking out for a couple of seconds would certainly fit what happened.

The airshow is a hostile environment for any pilot, one mistake is all it takes.

two who died were a couple of young guys driving over to play for Worthing utd

tragic for all involved

fate can be very very fickle i'm afraid

just Checking
Date Joined:    25 Jun 06
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23 Aug 15 00:56 Joined: 25 Jun 06 | Topic/replies: 16,977 | Blogger: Just Checking's blog
My guess is he blacked out for a couple of seconds...

Hope we are not going to see another case of undisclosed medical issues.

these pilots getting more 'showy'?
I went to loads of airshows as a kid with my old man ex RAF and I cant recall a single accident.

The new video taken from the road shows the plane is still intact and appears to just drop 100m or so before the crash

Red arrows fly over London, messing about entertaining crowds and I don't see an uproar about them


Thousands of commercial flights happen every day in the uk taking/off landing right next to densely populated residential areas.

one in a hundred-million accident unfortunately .

awful to witness at close quarters

deffo not one in a hundred million
its an airshow ffs nothing like commercial flight scenario whatsoever

maybe generous too long odds irishone  - but very rare none the less

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_show_accidents_and_incidents

Air Showoffs should be banned.

Its not the fact he crashed its where he crashed that is the issue.  A pilot was killed in a crash at a a car show only a couple of weeks ago but as he was the only one its not an issue.

The question is why was he over the road?

maybe using as a marker .

the RAF jets use moving trains etc as markers do they not ?

Not read it all but last comment I did said that there was not anywhere safe to do it.
Why not let them take off at airfield but do the stunts over the sea. I'm sure the spectators can have a beach area to watch from

most do at resorts MT - strange this wasn't

another crash at an air show in Switzerland today

seemed to be a lot of fuel on board given the inferno - would it have required that much for a session ?

may have hit a petrol tanker or similar

yes big H - possibility

Sky News just on interviewing others at an airshow enjoying their day out in the sun and how safe it is etc. A bit in poor taste but cannot expect much else from this broadcaster.

Not for those poor people who were going about their daily business yesterday who have now tragically lost their lifes. RIP.

Do we really need these spectacles showing off their 'death defying' stunts?

Maybe the solution is to do these things over the sea.

irishone
23 Aug 15 18:06
Joined: 22 Sep 06
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_show_accidents_and_incidents

1926

    May 24 – Chariton, Iowa – Spectator M.H. Johnson was killed and trapeze performer Eva Murphy was injured during a stunt demonstration. Mr. Murphy was trying to remove Mr. Johnson's hat during a low altitude flyby while hanging from an airplane mounted trapeze. Mr. Johnson was struck and died from a head injury.

dashcam footage

https://uk.screen.yahoo.com/factual/dash-cam-vision-shows-airshow-025957805.html

Interesting quote from a former airshow promoter in todays papers:

A former airshow promoter who has worked with the Red Arrows and helped organise airshows around Britain told the Mirror:

I have friends involved in the organisation of Shoreham Air Show and have been there several times.

"The Red Arrows refuse to display there as they say the surrounding area is far too dangerous and could lead to a major accident.
"All they will do at Shoreham is a straight fly-past with red, white and blue smoke coming out the back of the jets.
"They have refused point blank to do an acrobatic display. They say there is no fall-out zone and any accident would be a disaster there.

"There is nowhere for them to put a plane down without killing someone.

"Every year the organisers apply for a Red Arrows display but they turn them down."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11819813/Shoreham-Air-Show-crash-Se...

Very interesting.

On Radio 5 today they interviewed a pilot who has studied the footage of the plane's descent.

He reckons the pilot took a decision to land on the road rather than the airfield to minimise casualties.

Brought back some chilling holiday  memories - this one detailed below involved two Hunters doing 'touch and bumps' (ie touching down on the runway then taking off again) on a normal Thursday at RAF Valley. I was in the public viewing space at the end of the runway,they came in, touched and bumped then flew past overhead. A few seconds later people were shouting. the planes had nudged each other, a wing had broke off and they were coming to earth.Then the flash followed by the the noise of the explosion. As the crow flies the Silver Bay Holiday Site was only 1 mile from the end of the runway - which is too close. That was the day I decided I didn't want to be a pilot anymore when I grew up.



Date:    10-AUG-1972

Hawker Hunter F.Mk 6
Owner/operator:    4 FTS RAF
Registration:    XF387
C/n / msn:    S4/U/3287
Fatalities:    Fatalities: 1 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities:    1
Airplane damage:    Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location:    near Silver Bay Holiday Camp, Pentre Gwyddel, Rhoscolyn, Anglesey -     United Kingdom
Phase:    En route
Nature:    Military
Departure airport:    RAF Valley (HLY/EGOV)
Destination airport:   
Narrative:
Two Hawker Hunter F.Nk.6s of 4 FTS, RAF Valley (XF384 and XF387) collided at 200 feet over Rhoscolyn, Anglesey. XF384 crashed onto the Silver Bay Holiday Camp striking several caravans and killing a woman and her dog (named Jet). XF387 crashed into a field adjacent to the holiday park killing the pilot, a Jordanian National later named as Pilot Cadet Talal Shafiq Issa

... the planes had nudged each other, a wing had broke off and they were coming to earth.Then the flash followed by the the noise of the explosion...

"Airplane damage:    Written off (damaged beyond repair)"

Dry sense of humour in the RAF apparently.

Just found out my bro in law's nephew was somehow involved and has serious burns, in hospital now might need skin grafts.  I live about a mile from the crash site.  My parents' next door neighbours(who I grew up with and are v. Close family friends) were there as was one of the girls from work.  All a bit too close to home this.

A sad story all round, hope the pilot makes it to give his side of events. The family of the deceased need to know more than anything.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3209154/Spectator-demands-refund-Shoreham-Airshow-tickets.html

some peasant wanted a refund from the RAFA because the show was cancelled

Fate is a fickle thing, found out earlier today that my cousins husband was one of those killed. He had intended being at the airshow but was late leaving the house and so was on the road when the plane came down, if he had left on time or not at all, he would still be alive.

Awful

fate is tragic

wasn't their a farmers field to the right of main road

quote from the telegraph this morning:

08.27 - Pilot 'performed a lunatic manoeuvre'

An expert pilot has suggested Andy Hill, the pilot of the Hawker Hunter jet that crashed, was "showing off" as he performed a "lunatic" manoeuvre.

Leslie Hatcher, 71, a former RAF aerobatics instructor who flew Hawker Hunters, told The Times that the sort of accident seen at Shoreham "should never happen".

He said: "Your display should be done up and down the runway. You should stay within the boundaries of the airfield. He should have been nowhere near that road.

"He was carrying drop [auxiliary fuel] tanks on each wing. To make it as safe as possible, you take an absolute minimum of fuel. Even if they were empty, they should not have been there. They cause drag on the aircraft.

"That guy came in at about 100ft, much lower than the 500ft minimum height allowed. He pulled up and he was going too slowly. He looked unstable as he was going over the top [of the loop]. He should have rolled out at the top.

"The guy must have been a complete lunatic to come in at 100ft and think he could pull out of it [the loop] safely.

"This guy — I think simply he was just showing off. This sort of accident should never happen. Even if he had taken a bird strike in the engine, he would have been able to recover that [if he was flying above 500ft].

"You do not fly over crowds. You do not fly below 500ft."

Mr Hatcher said he had flown 60 hours in one and two-seater variants of the Hawker Hunter before graduating to fly the supersonic English Electric Lightning. He later became an aerobatics instructor at RAF Training Command. In 1981 he won the Wright Jubilee Trophy for best display by an RAF pilot.

Mr Hill, a 51-year-old from Surrey, remains in a critical condition in hospital after remarkably surviving the disaster. His wife is understood to also be a pilot.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11822238/Shoreham-Air-Show-crash-Search-for-victims-enters-fourth-day-latest.html

Story in the paper today, that pilot Andy Hill was not listed as the pilot in the air show programme.  Another veteran RAF pilot was meant to be flying but pulled out of the stunt so he could go on a dream holiday with his family.  So instead Andy Hill was the pilot, who used to fly Harriers for the RAF.  And the original pilot was in Cambodia when he heard the news.

The most amazing thing in all this is that the pilot is still alive.  I mean wtf, he didn't eject did he, sure no one has said so.  So how on earth could he possibly possibly be alive?

People have the slightest accidents and get killed. Others suffer horrendous trauma - and survive.   It happens.

There was a german girl who survived a plane breaking up or exploding or something at 30,000 ft, she landed in the amazonian rainforest, the trees broke her fall and she followed the streams till she got to a bigger river and found some lumber tracks and then some people.  Hey presto she survived.  That is not as impressive as this pilot surviving for my money.

is it pilot error if he blacked out?

I’d guess it would depend if the blackout were caused by too tight a turn, beyond accepted limits, which would be poor judgement on his part.

I’m no expert, but I’ve never heard of someone surviving a fighter jet crash on a runway, away from big objects and with the fire and ambulance only a couple of hundred yards away, let alone a road full of cars, barriers poles and surrounded by trees.

My guess, as I haven’t read anything about it, would be that the front bit broke off on impact and tumbled out of the way of that massive engine and all that aviation fuel. (front bit is a technical term to avoid upsetting the facking censor).

surprised ejector seat pin never sheared

cockpit

"..dog named Jet."

yes, the survival of the pilot - whatever the condition - is virtually unprecedented

It seems like a bit of a waste of luck, really, since he's probably escaped death only to live out a life of guilt, pain and disability.

I know it is a bit off-topic but I can't imagine that an ejector-seat would be allowed on non-military aircraft. The rocket thrusters would be removed. They are classed as explosives.

Just my opinion. Possibly wrong.

I DO realise that it USED TO BE a fighter 'plane.

the plane did have it's ejector seat, it had partially deployed according to the resue teams and had to be made safe before the debris could be moved

its sry

I must say that I find that surprising although I don't know what 'partially deployed' means. I'm also a bit stuck on what 'its sry' means.

Like I said, that was just my thoughts on things because very strict procedures must be in place to prevent untimely operation of an ejector seat!

Thanks for the info, though. 

The jet which crashed at the Shoreham air show killing 11 people showed "no abnormal indications" during its flight, an initial report has found.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) report said cockpit footage showed the plane "responding to the pilot's control inputs"

Witnesses reported seeing the pilot being dragged out of the wreckage alive. - The Metro 22/8.

I haven't seen any details of who was involved in this heroic act.

a local medic

I think I read his seat with him in it separated from the wreckage, maybe the explosive (?) bolts sheared or it
was half ejected, apparently the canopy was off.

The official report apparently says he started too low and wasn't rated to do that. They also recovered cockpit cameras. I'm not sure about the thrust ability of that plane but a lot of fighter jets (famously the Lightning / Eurofighter / F18) can basically climb vertically like rockets so you could start a loop at 1ft and complete it with oodles of room if you wanted. You see them do it at airshows, it's a way to start an impressive display, take off and whoosh. I still think from the footage I saw he just isn't rotating enough as he comes down for a length of time. Don't know if they've interviewed him yet.

Also the thing about having tanks on when he maybe shouldn't have is a thought, as the loop is a bit wierd, like maybe the fact he sort of lazy skews at the top is because he's not got the speed at that point like a sort of stall.

The pilot of a vintage jet which crashed during the Shoreham airshow, killing 11, began his fatal loop-the-loop hundreds of feet lower than his licence allowed, an official report has disclosed.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said Andy Hill, 51, a former British Airways pilot, performed a left turn to 200ft above sea level before beginning an aerobatic manoeuvre.

Mr Hill, who was seriously injured in the crash, was allowed to perform such manoeuvres at a minimum height of 500ft, under an authorisation from the Civil Aviation Authority.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11844829/Shoreham-Air-Show-plane-crash-Pilot-was-too-low-official-report-reveals.html

Having just read the AAIB report at no point does it say he started the manoeuvre too low or offer any opinion to that effect. All the newspapers are stating that is the case, so apologies for the post I made above.

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/55e993f5ed915d06a100002c/S3-2015_G-BXFI.pdf

Not your fault, the Telegraph article quotes the report and quotes the opinion of an expert who has read the report as if it were all part of the report (which makes it clear it does not apportion blame). Sloppy or deliberate, who knows? But I suppose any expert would note from the report that the plane was lower than the rules state before starting the stunt (although why didn't the pilot just climb that bit higher? I suppose it'll all come out).

Interesting report though, shows that the pilot was thrown clear with his seat. I couldn't believe he survived unless something like that happened, because I knew of a story in WW2 where a Lancaster was shot down and nose dived into the ground on the edge of a forest in Augsburg. Everyone who saw the crash were certain that the crew all died but the pilot, strapped in his seat, was thrown through the canopy, seat and all, and survived. The rest of the crew were killed.