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Chit Chat
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Greece is bankrupt. Both in absolute terms and morally.
Taxpayers from the Eurozone have so far forked out 240 billion euros
e.g. Spain borrowed 6 billion last time to contribute towards the last bailout to Greece- and now they are being asked to find more- which again they will borrow and have to repay - with interest
Germany is the main contributor. France next. If UK had joined the Euro we would have paid around 40 billion euro so far.
When an individual goes bankrupt his debts are written off to the detriment of his creditors who lose out - any assets are seized and sold to reduce the debt owed-and the State then pays benefits - ostensibly for basic living expenses.
This is what should happen to Greece.
They need to leave the Euro
All monies in the Greek banks to- overnight- become 'the new drachma' - and its spending power will - we are told- devalue by 40-50% overnight.
Those individuals in debt to the banks will immediately benefit from a big reduction in their debts - effectively inflation - both immediate and what is to follow - will reduce their personal debt burden.
Those with cash in a Greek bank or own a Greek property will lose up to half their investments/savings.
The Eurozone should send in the bailiffs/administrators and privatise all Greek national assets - e.g. all ancient monuments and profitable museums/ tourist sites/public utilities- electricity transport road tolls etc - monies raised repay the creditors.
Humanitarian aid to be provided by the Eurozone to the poor population of Greece. Make no mistake- we in the UK will also contribute significantly to this. After the war Germany had to be supported to avoid a huge power vacuum and a destabilised Europe. UK has only recently finished paying for our war debt (The costs of which should have been paid by Germany once their economy picked up - quite why Germany wasn't carved up and held by the Allies is another question entirely).
Greece is 2% of the Eurozone GDP - yet the ripples from such a small world problem will reverberate for quite some time and drag Europe and western growth down.
And the tip?
I believe the analysts who state that the Euro will fall from 1.11 to the USD to at least as far as 1.05 - and probably at parity by the year end - or less- irrespective of whether Greece exits for good - exits for the proposed 5 years to sort itself out - or (and by far the worst option for all, including Greek people) if they agree terms to stay- in which case rearrange these few words to summarise the then position : the Kicking street can the down
Not funny, any of this - most certainly
Taxpayers from the Eurozone have so far forked out 240 billion euros
e.g. Spain borrowed 6 billion last time to contribute towards the last bailout to Greece- and now they are being asked to find more- which again they will borrow and have to repay - with interest
Germany is the main contributor. France next. If UK had joined the Euro we would have paid around 40 billion euro so far.
When an individual goes bankrupt his debts are written off to the detriment of his creditors who lose out - any assets are seized and sold to reduce the debt owed-and the State then pays benefits - ostensibly for basic living expenses.
This is what should happen to Greece.
They need to leave the Euro
All monies in the Greek banks to- overnight- become 'the new drachma' - and its spending power will - we are told- devalue by 40-50% overnight.
Those individuals in debt to the banks will immediately benefit from a big reduction in their debts - effectively inflation - both immediate and what is to follow - will reduce their personal debt burden.
Those with cash in a Greek bank or own a Greek property will lose up to half their investments/savings.
The Eurozone should send in the bailiffs/administrators and privatise all Greek national assets - e.g. all ancient monuments and profitable museums/ tourist sites/public utilities- electricity transport road tolls etc - monies raised repay the creditors.
Humanitarian aid to be provided by the Eurozone to the poor population of Greece. Make no mistake- we in the UK will also contribute significantly to this. After the war Germany had to be supported to avoid a huge power vacuum and a destabilised Europe. UK has only recently finished paying for our war debt (The costs of which should have been paid by Germany once their economy picked up - quite why Germany wasn't carved up and held by the Allies is another question entirely).
Greece is 2% of the Eurozone GDP - yet the ripples from such a small world problem will reverberate for quite some time and drag Europe and western growth down.
And the tip?
I believe the analysts who state that the Euro will fall from 1.11 to the USD to at least as far as 1.05 - and probably at parity by the year end - or less- irrespective of whether Greece exits for good - exits for the proposed 5 years to sort itself out - or (and by far the worst option for all, including Greek people) if they agree terms to stay- in which case rearrange these few words to summarise the then position : the Kicking street can the down
Not funny, any of this - most certainly
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Those individuals in debt to the banks will immediately benefit from a big reduction in their debts - effectively inflation - both immediate and what is to follow - will reduce their personal debt burden.
Doesn't work that way. The debts are denominated in euros and payment has to be in euros unless the creditors agree. |
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Oh - and the above is the optimistic version: there are already siren voices predicting this could well be the end of the euro.
UKIP leaders must be laughing themselves silly over this..... |
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dave- dont think so
All Greek bank accounts- those in credit and overdrawn- will overnight become the new currency plenty of examples - e.g. south america where its repeatedly happened. and if you are in debt - hyper inflation will eat away at the true cost of the debt - as your pay increases the % you spend to service the debt reduces very quickly I have seen extreme inflation in Turkey - 1008% p.a. interest offered on Turkish Lire deposit bank accounts - and when i asked about this was told- 'yes- the banks rob you blind' inflation was running far higher |
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This is a currency union that complicates matters. eg the ECB has first charge on the assets of Greek banks which include loans in euros and the security if the loans aren't repaid. Greeks will have taken out euro loans with other EU banks.
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The whole think is a colossal clusterfckup.
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*thing
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agreed- what a mess
and why were the Germans in particular so keen to fudge the rules and let them in? could it possibly be something to do with the billions of armaments bought with the new credit available - guess where from? Germany |
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thats Billions of euros spent on armaments
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And most of the bailout money the OP mentions was not really helping Greece so much as rescuing German and French banks.
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Just give Germany a few of the Greek Islands and write the debt off.
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latest headline- leaders summit cancelled for tonight- current finance meeting will continue 'until a deal is done'
there's that can again Madness if this transpires |
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germany should pay.
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As has been pointed out elsewhere, surely the answer to all their problems is to take in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from Africa.
They do a wonderful job here in the UK as we see how good multiculturalism is, and the fact that they all came here to work. If it worked here, it must work in Greece. |
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Greece is a complete basket case of a nation.
They borrow heavily because they spend far more than they collect in taxes and now it's everyone else's fault when the lending stops and they're bankrupt. |
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But isn't the bailouts going straight to both German and French banks,the Greek people don't get it?
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Yes daffodil.....
....a fact that is conveniently omitted from the mainstream media............... |
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So it's the banks that are being bailed out not the Greek people. And how would some of you people on here feel if your pension was reduced by 40% thru no fault of your own.The Eurozone appears to work for the French and Germans nicely.
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Its twisted logic to claim its the banks being bailed out.
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Why on earth would bailout money go directly to the Greeks?
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You tell me Dotchinite,all I see is people suffering because of Politicians and Bankers.
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Are not the bankers repaying themselves for over exposure?
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Dotchinite 12 Jul 15 14:32 Joined: 19 Apr 04 | Topic/replies: 4,851 | Blogger: Dotchinite's blog
Its twisted logic to claim its the banks being bailed out. Rate reply: | report block user Of course the banks are being bailed out,no twisted logic in that. |
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Of course it is twisted logic.
It's all just populist nonsense from the Greeks. Who did they think they were borrowing money from? |
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If Greece were not allowed access to borrow on the financial markets, they would've been bankrupt decades ago.
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And to say that the bailout is not helping the Greek people, well who's been paying for all their freebies all this time?
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It's the banks that are being bailed out not the Greek people,how in god's name can an economy be expected to grow when it's been saddled with all this debt,the troika of the IMF,ECB and the EC are lending Greece the money to repay themselves,this in effect is a bailout of the banks and you can't sugarcoat that.
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I don't think so tbh.
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Daf, ask yourself why the Greeks have all this debt in the first place.
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..it is a fact that the majority of the so called Greek bailout money has gone to private financial institutions.....banks...hedge funds and the like...primarily in Germany and France but also within the Greek financial elite/oligarchy.
Private losses caused by lending decisions based on political rather than economic fundamentals have been socialised.....spread between the peoples of the aforementioned countries and the rest of the Eurozone. |
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The 2008 financial crisis blew a huge hole in Greece's budget remembering it affected a lot of European countries but Greece was one of the poorest so suffered more. If Greece didn't use the euro, it could have boosted its economy by printing more of its currency, the drachma. This would have lowered the value of the drachma in international markets, making Greek exports more competitive. It would have also lowered domestic interest rates, encouraging domestic investment and making it easier for Greek debtors to service their debts. The German lead ECB has given the rest of Europe a monetary policy which is ok for Germany but not for countries like Greece. Greece's problems started when the joined the Euro in 2001. The IMF imposed stringent measures for Greece to follow,tax hikes,spending cuts etc based on a projection of Greek growth that could never of happened,they got it so wrong, I'm not saying Greece is totally blameless in all of this but the IMF has to hold it's hands up as well. I don't know all the answers but I do know that Greece can never get out of this mess while staying part of the EU,the country as a whole will never flourish under these conditions,you might not agree with my reasoning but then your entitled to yours as are others on this forum.
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The blame should be laid at the door of the creators of the Euro and the decision to allow such a basket case as Greece to join it.
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a salutary lesson is it????
indeed it is , it shows the limitation of the evil capitalistic sytem we are using you have just justified communism  although even I admit we need some capitalism, we need a mixture of communism/socialism the mindless capitalism we are employing led to the credit crunch and the fate of Greece end of party political broadcast , well the response to it |
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You blame Greece, you are blaming the victim, not the culprit
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I blame cryoftruth.
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Incidentally, what was the point of last week's referendum?
The PM asked the Greek people to vote "no" to the the same proposals which he is now backing. A basket case. |
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You have a point
Cameron offered the Scots a referendum and then then persuaded them to stay with us....so why did he offer a referendum another basket case I do understand Greece have woefully overspent, but that does make them morally bankrupt..a lot of people overspend rather stupidly, but it is not a moral crime Also who lent Greece the money to do this, well the banks actually. In fact they lent far too much all round that is why we had the Credit crunch. The Banks did not do this out of altruism, but because the banks themselves earnt money, there is a question of Bank's morality. The EU itself had also very inefficient fiancés and discipline , I would not regard that as a moral crime??????, but was rather silly in hindsight You cannot blame it all on poor little Greece..really |
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Nor can you say Greece is the victim and totally innocent.
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ebul,
do you not understand the Greek PM has flip flopped in the space of a week? Did Cameron say "no" to Scotland leaving then change his mind? |